Viewing order for Batman: The Animated Series?

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Robert Kaiser, Jul 20, 2004.

  1. What is the best viewing order for the new "Batman: The Animated Series" DVD
    set? I have read that these episodes are presented in production order. Is
    this correct? Even if so, is the production order the same order that they
    were intended to be viewed in?

    Generally, the order in which the episodes originally aired is usually the
    preferred viewing order; however I am aware that even this is not always
    true. (Sometimes a delay or accident causes a few episodes to be aired out
    of their intended order.)

    As such, any links to a website which gives a suggested viewing order would
    be much appreciated.

    Robert
    Robert Kaiser, Jul 20, 2004
    #1
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  2. Robert Kaiser

    Invid Fan Guest

    In article <K2bLc.115859$>,
    Robert Kaiser <> wrote:

    > What is the best viewing order for the new "Batman: The Animated Series" DVD
    > set? I have read that these episodes are presented in production order. Is
    > this correct? Even if so, is the production order the same order that they
    > were intended to be viewed in?
    >

    Generally, yes. They're putting the two part episodes back to back,
    even though they often weren't together production wise, so that covers
    that problem.

    > Generally, the order in which the episodes originally aired is usually the
    > preferred viewing order; however I am aware that even this is not always
    > true. (Sometimes a delay or accident causes a few episodes to be aired out
    > of their intended order.)
    >

    There's no real continuity, so they can be viewed in any order. There
    is character development to some degree, but it's spread out.

    --
    Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
    'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
    -'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
    Invid Fan, Jul 20, 2004
    #2
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  3. Robert Kaiser

    ShadowRaptor Guest

    Batman Fans - Are these really good? I am retired and just starting to get
    into Batman, Spiderman et al. and I want to know if this is a good series.

    Thanks

    Rob
    Canada

    "Invid Fan" <> wrote in message

    [snipped for brevity]
    ShadowRaptor, Jul 20, 2004
    #3
  4. Robert Kaiser wrote:

    > What is the best viewing order for the new "Batman: The Animated Series" DVD
    > set? I have read that these episodes are presented in production order. Is
    > this correct? Even if so, is the production order the same order that they
    > were intended to be viewed in?
    >
    > Generally, the order in which the episodes originally aired is usually the
    > preferred viewing order; however I am aware that even this is not always
    > true. (Sometimes a delay or accident causes a few episodes to be aired out
    > of their intended order.)
    >
    > As such, any links to a website which gives a suggested viewing order would
    > be much appreciated.
    >
    > Robert
    >
    >
    >

    If you are interested in watching it in the order in which they were
    originally aired, TvTome has them listed so:

    http://www.tvtome.com/BatmanTheAnimatedSeries/eplist.html
    Mike de la Fuente, Jul 20, 2004
    #4
  5. Robert Kaiser

    jayembee Guest

    says...

    > Robert Kaiser wrote:
    >
    >> What is the best viewing order for the new "Batman: The Animated Series" DVD
    >> set? I have read that these episodes are presented in production order. Is
    >> this correct? Even if so, is the production order the same order that they
    >> were intended to be viewed in?
    >>
    >> Generally, the order in which the episodes originally aired is usually the
    >> preferred viewing order; however I am aware that even this is not always
    >> true. (Sometimes a delay or accident causes a few episodes to be aired out
    >> of their intended order.)
    >>
    >> As such, any links to a website which gives a suggested viewing order would
    >> be much appreciated.

    >
    > If you are interested in watching it in the order in which they were
    > originally aired, TvTome has them listed so:
    >
    > http://www.tvtome.com/BatmanTheAnimatedSeries/eplist.html


    However, more to the point, it really doesn't make any difference. By and
    large, the stories are completely stand-alone, and it won't make any
    difference whether you view them in production order or broadcast order.

    There are some exceptions. But in those cases -- such as "Night of the Ninja"
    & "Day of the Samurai", and "Heart of Steel" & "His Silicon Soul" (all of
    which will be in later volumes) -- you will see them in the correct order
    regardless of whether you watch the set in broadcast or production order.

    -- jayembee
    jayembee, Jul 20, 2004
    #5
  6. Robert Kaiser

    Invid Fan Guest

    In article <y3eLc.3029$>, ShadowRaptor
    <> wrote:

    > Batman Fans - Are these really good? I am retired and just starting to get
    > into Batman, Spiderman et al. and I want to know if this is a good series.
    >

    Hell yes :) Oh, there's the occational bad episode, and WB had to fire
    one of the Japanese/Korean studios they were using (out of the four or
    so that worked on the show) because they couldn't animate anything on
    model, but this series has some amazing episodes.

    --
    Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
    'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
    -'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
    Invid Fan, Jul 20, 2004
    #6
  7. "ShadowRaptor" <> wrote :
    > Batman Fans - Are these really good? I am retired and just starting to get
    > into Batman, Spiderman et al. and I want to know if this is a good series.


    I bought the set this week, and just watched the first six episodes. It was
    really good stuff. I haven't found storytelling for adults in cartoons at
    this level for quite some time. When you realize that they are dealing with
    severe time constraints (an entire episode in 25 minutes), you have to be
    amazed at the high quality of story telling they achieve. Good voice work,
    too.

    Oh, and the Art Deco artwork blows my mind. Really nice stuff.

    Robert
    Robert Kaiser, Jul 22, 2004
    #7
  8. Robert Kaiser

    Jordan Lund Guest

    "Robert Kaiser" <> wrote in message news:<K2bLc.115859$>...
    > What is the best viewing order for the new "Batman: The Animated Series" DVD
    > set? I have read that these episodes are presented in production order. Is
    > this correct? Even if so, is the production order the same order that they
    > were intended to be viewed in?


    The production order is different than the broadcast order and even
    then the series differs from production order by putting two-part
    episodes together when they were both produced and aired farther
    apart.

    The most glaring error in using the production order is that you get a
    Robin episode very early on. Robin wasn't introduced until much later
    in the run so on some early episodes like "The Sewer King" it's now
    logical to ask "Hey, where's Robin?" when on the airdate run you
    hadn't even seen Robin yet.

    I found the broadcast order at http://www.tvtome.com:

    Season 1
    1. 1-1 513 05-Sep-1992 The Cat and the Claw
    2. 1-2 501 06-Sep-1992 On Leather Wings
    3. 1-3 514 07-Sep-1992 Heart of Ice
    4. 1-4 520 08-Sep-1992 Feat of Clay
    5. 1-5 521 09-Sep-1992 Feat of Clay, Part II
    6. 1-6 511 10-Sep-1992 It's Never Too Late
    7. 1-7 522 11-Sep-1992 Joker's Favor
    8. 1-8 516 12-Sep-1992 The Cat and the Claw, Part II
    9. 1-9 505 14-Sep-1992 Pretty Poison
    10. 1-10 503 15-Sep-1992 Nothing to Fear
    11. 1-11 509 16-Sep-1992 Be a Clown
    12. 1-12 526 17-Sep-1992 Appointment in Crime Alley
    13. 1-13 507 18-Sep-1992 P.O.V.
    14. 1-14 525 21-Sep-1992 The Clock King
    15. 1-15 504 22-Sep-1992 The Last Laugh
    16. 1-16 529 23-Sep-1992 Eternal Youth
    17. 1-17 510 25-Sep-1992 Two-Face
    18. 1-18 517 28-Sep-1992 Two-Face, Part II
    19. 1-19 524 29-Sep-1992 Fear of Victory
    20. 1-20 512 30-Sep-1992 I've Got Batman in My Basement
    21. 1-21 523 05-Oct-1992 Vendetta
    22. 1-22 519 06-Oct-1992 Prophecy of Doom
    23. 1-23 508 08-Oct-1992 The Forgotten
    24. 1-24 527 12-Oct-1992 Mad as a Hatter
    25. 1-25 531 14-Oct-1992 The Cape and Cowl Conspiracy
    26. 1-26 530 19-Oct-1992 Perchance to Dream
    27. 1-27 506 21-Oct-1992 The Underdwellers
    28. 1-28 534 26-Oct-1992 Night of the Ninja
    29. 1-29 536 29-Oct-1992 The Strange Secret of Bruce Wayne
    30. 1-30 541 30-Oct-1992 Tyger, Tyger
    31. 1-31 528 03-Nov-1992 Dreams in Darkness
    32. 1-32 518 04-Nov-1992 Beware the Gray Ghost
    33. 1-33 535 05-Nov-1992 Cat Scratch Fever
    34. 1-34 549 09-Nov-1992 I Am the Night
    35. 1-35 546 10-Nov-1992 Almost Got 'Im
    36. 1-36 542 11-Nov-1992 Moon of the Wolf
    37. 1-37 545 12-Nov-1992 Terror in the Sky
    38. 1-38 502 13-Nov-1992 Christmas With the Joker
    39. 1-39 538 16-Nov-1992 Heart of Steel
    40. 1-40 544 17-Nov-1992 Heart of Steel, Part II
    41. 1-41 539 18-Nov-1992 If You're So Smart, Why Aren't You Rich?
    42. 1-42 540 19-Nov-1992 Joker's Wild
    43. 1-43 560 20-Nov-1992 His Silicon Soul
    44. 1-44 550 23-Nov-1992 Off Balance
    45. 1-45 548 24-Nov-1992 What is Reality?
    46. 1-46 533 10-Jan-1993 The Laughing Fish
    47. 1-47 556 18-Jan-1993 Harley and Ivy
    48. 1-48 555 24-Jan-1993 The Mechanic
    49. 1-49 551 01-Feb-1993 The Man Who Killed Batman
    50. 1-50 554 02-Feb-1993 Zatanna
    51. 1-51 532 07-Feb-1993 Robin's Reckoning
    52. 1-52 547 08-Feb-1993 Birds of a Feather
    53. 1-53 537 14-Feb-1993 Robin's Reckoning, Part II
    54. 1-54 558 22-Feb-1993 Blind as a Bat
    55. 1-55 543 23-Feb-1993 Day of the Samurai
    56. 1-56 515 24-Feb-1993 See No Evil
    57. 1-57 559 03-May-1993 The Demon's Quest
    58. 1-58 563 04-May-1993 The Demon's Quest, Part II
    59. 1-59 564 10-May-1993 Read My Lips
    60. 1-60 562 24-May-1993 Fire From Olympus

    Season 2
    61. 2-1 557 13-Sep-1993 Shadow of the Bat
    62. 2-2 561 14-Sep-1993 Shadow of the Bat, Part II
    63. 2-3 552 15-Sep-1993 Mudslide
    64. 2-4 565 16-Sep-1993 The Worry Men
    65. 2-5 553 17-Sep-1993 Paging the Crime Doctor

    Feature Movie
    F-1 25-Dec-1993 Mask of the Phantasm

    Season 2
    66. 2-6 570 02-May-1994 House And Garden
    67. 2-7 566 03-May-1994 Sideshow
    68. 2-8 569 09-May-1994 Avatar
    69. 2-9 568 16-May-1994 Trial
    70. 2-10 572 23-May-1994 Harlequinade

    Season 3
    71. 3-1 575 10-Sep-1994 Bane
    72. 3-2 580 17-Sep-1994 Second Chance
    73. 3-3 579 24-Sep-1994 Riddler's Reform
    74. 3-4 576 01-Oct-1994 Baby-Doll
    75. 3-5 573 08-Oct-1994 Time Out of Joint
    76. 3-6 581 15-Oct-1994 Harley's Holiday
    77. 3-7 583 05-Nov-1994 Make 'Em Laugh
    78. 3-8 585 12-Nov-1994 Batgirl Returns
    79. 3-9 582 19-Nov-1994 Lock-Up
    80. 3-10 584 26-Nov-1994 Deep Freeze

    Season 4
    81. 4-1 571 11-Sep-1995 The Terrible Trio
    82. 4-2 578 12-Sep-1995 Showdown
    83. 4-3 574 13-Sep-1995 Catwalk
    84. 4-4 567 14-Sep-1995 A Bullet for Bullock
    85. 4-5 577 15-Sep-1995 The Lion & the Unicorn

    Video
    V-1 17-Mar-1998 Subzero
    Jordan Lund, Jul 23, 2004
    #8
  9. Robert Kaiser

    Stychentyme Guest

    "Jordan Lund" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Robert Kaiser" <> wrote in message

    news:<K2bLc.115859$>...
    > > What is the best viewing order for the new "Batman: The Animated Series"

    DVD
    > > set? I have read that these episodes are presented in production order.

    Is
    > > this correct? Even if so, is the production order the same order that

    they
    > > were intended to be viewed in?

    >
    > The production order is different than the broadcast order and even
    > then the series differs from production order by putting two-part
    > episodes together when they were both produced and aired farther
    > apart.
    >
    > The most glaring error in using the production order is that you get a
    > Robin episode very early on. Robin wasn't introduced until much later
    > in the run so on some early episodes like "The Sewer King" it's now
    > logical to ask "Hey, where's Robin?" when on the airdate run you
    > hadn't even seen Robin yet.
    >
    > I found the broadcast order at http://www.tvtome.com:
    >
    > Season 1
    > 1. 1-1 513 05-Sep-1992 The Cat and the Claw
    > 2. 1-2 501 06-Sep-1992 On Leather Wings
    > 3. 1-3 514 07-Sep-1992 Heart of Ice
    > 4. 1-4 520 08-Sep-1992 Feat of Clay
    > 5. 1-5 521 09-Sep-1992 Feat of Clay, Part II
    > 6. 1-6 511 10-Sep-1992 It's Never Too Late
    > 7. 1-7 522 11-Sep-1992 Joker's Favor
    > 8. 1-8 516 12-Sep-1992 The Cat and the Claw, Part II
    > 9. 1-9 505 14-Sep-1992 Pretty Poison
    > 10. 1-10 503 15-Sep-1992 Nothing to Fear
    > 11. 1-11 509 16-Sep-1992 Be a Clown
    > 12. 1-12 526 17-Sep-1992 Appointment in Crime Alley
    > 13. 1-13 507 18-Sep-1992 P.O.V.
    > 14. 1-14 525 21-Sep-1992 The Clock King
    > 15. 1-15 504 22-Sep-1992 The Last Laugh
    > 16. 1-16 529 23-Sep-1992 Eternal Youth
    > 17. 1-17 510 25-Sep-1992 Two-Face
    > 18. 1-18 517 28-Sep-1992 Two-Face, Part II
    > 19. 1-19 524 29-Sep-1992 Fear of Victory
    > 20. 1-20 512 30-Sep-1992 I've Got Batman in My Basement
    > 21. 1-21 523 05-Oct-1992 Vendetta
    > 22. 1-22 519 06-Oct-1992 Prophecy of Doom
    > 23. 1-23 508 08-Oct-1992 The Forgotten
    > 24. 1-24 527 12-Oct-1992 Mad as a Hatter
    > 25. 1-25 531 14-Oct-1992 The Cape and Cowl Conspiracy
    > 26. 1-26 530 19-Oct-1992 Perchance to Dream
    > 27. 1-27 506 21-Oct-1992 The Underdwellers
    > 28. 1-28 534 26-Oct-1992 Night of the Ninja
    > 29. 1-29 536 29-Oct-1992 The Strange Secret of Bruce Wayne
    > 30. 1-30 541 30-Oct-1992 Tyger, Tyger
    > 31. 1-31 528 03-Nov-1992 Dreams in Darkness
    > 32. 1-32 518 04-Nov-1992 Beware the Gray Ghost
    > 33. 1-33 535 05-Nov-1992 Cat Scratch Fever
    > 34. 1-34 549 09-Nov-1992 I Am the Night
    > 35. 1-35 546 10-Nov-1992 Almost Got 'Im
    > 36. 1-36 542 11-Nov-1992 Moon of the Wolf
    > 37. 1-37 545 12-Nov-1992 Terror in the Sky
    > 38. 1-38 502 13-Nov-1992 Christmas With the Joker
    > 39. 1-39 538 16-Nov-1992 Heart of Steel
    > 40. 1-40 544 17-Nov-1992 Heart of Steel, Part II
    > 41. 1-41 539 18-Nov-1992 If You're So Smart, Why Aren't You Rich?
    > 42. 1-42 540 19-Nov-1992 Joker's Wild
    > 43. 1-43 560 20-Nov-1992 His Silicon Soul
    > 44. 1-44 550 23-Nov-1992 Off Balance
    > 45. 1-45 548 24-Nov-1992 What is Reality?
    > 46. 1-46 533 10-Jan-1993 The Laughing Fish
    > 47. 1-47 556 18-Jan-1993 Harley and Ivy
    > 48. 1-48 555 24-Jan-1993 The Mechanic
    > 49. 1-49 551 01-Feb-1993 The Man Who Killed Batman
    > 50. 1-50 554 02-Feb-1993 Zatanna
    > 51. 1-51 532 07-Feb-1993 Robin's Reckoning
    > 52. 1-52 547 08-Feb-1993 Birds of a Feather
    > 53. 1-53 537 14-Feb-1993 Robin's Reckoning, Part II
    > 54. 1-54 558 22-Feb-1993 Blind as a Bat
    > 55. 1-55 543 23-Feb-1993 Day of the Samurai
    > 56. 1-56 515 24-Feb-1993 See No Evil
    > 57. 1-57 559 03-May-1993 The Demon's Quest
    > 58. 1-58 563 04-May-1993 The Demon's Quest, Part II
    > 59. 1-59 564 10-May-1993 Read My Lips
    > 60. 1-60 562 24-May-1993 Fire From Olympus
    >
    > Season 2
    > 61. 2-1 557 13-Sep-1993 Shadow of the Bat
    > 62. 2-2 561 14-Sep-1993 Shadow of the Bat, Part II
    > 63. 2-3 552 15-Sep-1993 Mudslide
    > 64. 2-4 565 16-Sep-1993 The Worry Men
    > 65. 2-5 553 17-Sep-1993 Paging the Crime Doctor
    >
    > Feature Movie
    > F-1 25-Dec-1993 Mask of the Phantasm
    >
    > Season 2
    > 66. 2-6 570 02-May-1994 House And Garden
    > 67. 2-7 566 03-May-1994 Sideshow
    > 68. 2-8 569 09-May-1994 Avatar
    > 69. 2-9 568 16-May-1994 Trial
    > 70. 2-10 572 23-May-1994 Harlequinade
    >
    > Season 3
    > 71. 3-1 575 10-Sep-1994 Bane
    > 72. 3-2 580 17-Sep-1994 Second Chance
    > 73. 3-3 579 24-Sep-1994 Riddler's Reform
    > 74. 3-4 576 01-Oct-1994 Baby-Doll
    > 75. 3-5 573 08-Oct-1994 Time Out of Joint
    > 76. 3-6 581 15-Oct-1994 Harley's Holiday
    > 77. 3-7 583 05-Nov-1994 Make 'Em Laugh
    > 78. 3-8 585 12-Nov-1994 Batgirl Returns
    > 79. 3-9 582 19-Nov-1994 Lock-Up
    > 80. 3-10 584 26-Nov-1994 Deep Freeze
    >
    > Season 4
    > 81. 4-1 571 11-Sep-1995 The Terrible Trio
    > 82. 4-2 578 12-Sep-1995 Showdown
    > 83. 4-3 574 13-Sep-1995 Catwalk
    > 84. 4-4 567 14-Sep-1995 A Bullet for Bullock
    > 85. 4-5 577 15-Sep-1995 The Lion & the Unicorn
    >
    > Video
    > V-1 17-Mar-1998 Subzero


    Why did season 1 have 60 episodes and season 2 and 3 had only 10? Not to
    mention season 4 with only 5. I guess that's why they never made the Batman
    DVD's by seasons like with the Simpsons? (complete season 1, complete season
    2,... and so on.)

    Do you think the movies will be included in future releases? I know that
    both Sub-Zero and Phantasm are available seperately now, but I guess there's
    no point buying them if they're going to be included in the new sets.
    Although I would love to get Mask of the Phantasm because it's in
    Widescreen. ;o)

    Stych.
    Stychentyme, Jul 23, 2004
    #9
  10. Robert Kaiser

    jayembee Guest

    "Stychentyme" <> wrote:

    > Why did season 1 have 60 episodes and season 2 and 3 had
    > only 10? Not to mention season 4 with only 5.


    It's complicated. When the series started, it was stripped
    Monday through Friday, with occasional special episodes
    airing on Saturday morning (the two parts of "The Cat and
    the Claw", for example, aired on the Saturday mornings
    bookending the series' debut week) or Sunday evenings.

    If you look at the pattern of dates for the episodes, you'll
    notice that after an initial barrage of episodes, you'd get
    a lot of repeats, then they'd sprinkle out maybe two episodes
    one week, then another two a few weeks later, and so on.

    So, that initial "season" was stretched out over a long time.

    As for seasons 3 & 4, well, some people think of those as
    being a different series altogether, because by that time,
    the show had been renamed from BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES
    to THE ADVENTURES OF BATMAN AND ROBIN. And the later was --
    again obvious from the dates -- a weekly Saturday morning
    show rather than stripped, so fewer episodes went a longer
    way.

    > I guess that's why they never made the Batman DVD's by
    > seasons like with the Simpsons? (complete season 1,
    > complete season 2,... and so on.)


    For the most part, yes. But also because weekday-stripped
    and Saturday morning kids shows don't necessarily follow
    the same easily determined seasonal pattern that primetime
    series do. Though THE SIMPSONS is animated, it's treated
    -- and rightly so -- the same as live-action primetime
    series.

    The dividing line between seasons for this series -- and
    others like it -- can be completely arbitrary. The reason
    that TV Tome, and others, called episodes 66-70 "Season 2"
    is because they're locked into the mentality that because
    they aired the following September, they must be a new
    season. But it makes more sense to think of them as being
    the tail end of the first season (just as PTEN held back
    the last few episodes of each season of BABYLON 5 to air
    right before the next season began).

    > Do you think the movies will be included in future releases?
    > I know that both Sub-Zero and Phantasm are available
    > seperately now, but I guess there's no point buying them
    > if they're going to be included in the new sets. Although
    > I would love to get Mask of the Phantasm because it's in
    > Widescreen. ;o)


    I think at this point that Warner is playing it all by ear.
    They are continuing to release B:TAS in single disc releases
    (they've got another one scheduled for October) with a two-
    pronged marketing approach in mind: the single discs are
    aimed towards the younger viewers, while the big sets are
    aimed toward the older collectors.

    With that in mind, I *suspect* that after they released all
    the regular episodes (which should take four volumes), that
    they'll release the movies together in a set, as they're
    doing with the B5 movies. Note that there are three movies
    (THE MYSTERY OF THE BATWOMAN is the third)...or four if you
    include THE BATMAN/SUPERMAN MOVIE. But that's really just a
    3-part episode of SUPERMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES, and therefore
    properly belongs with that title.

    -- jayembee
    jayembee, Jul 23, 2004
    #10
  11. Robert Kaiser

    Jordan Lund Guest

    "Stychentyme" <> wrote in message news:<8FbMc.83320$Rf.72432@edtnps84>...

    > Why did season 1 have 60 episodes and season 2 and 3 had only 10? Not to
    > mention season 4 with only 5. I guess that's why they never made the Batman
    > DVD's by seasons like with the Simpsons? (complete season 1, complete season
    > 2,... and so on.)


    Yeah, that's why they aren't doing season sets, if they did that they
    would have to do one huge season 1 set and then bundle the rest in one
    box. As it is there's probably only going to be 3 sets. I was very
    much bummed when the second season started and found out it was 90%
    re-runs from the first season.

    > Do you think the movies will be included in future releases?


    Since they've already been released I doubt they'll include them in
    the sets, although it is possible. Warner is doing a boxed set of the
    Babylon 5 movies and it includes the two they already released (The
    Gathering/In the Beginning).

    The three movies are:
    1) Mask of the Phantasm
    2) Sub Zero (direct to video)
    3) Mystery of the Batwoman (direct to video)

    - Jordan
    Jordan Lund, Jul 24, 2004
    #11
  12. (Jordan Lund) wrote in
    news::

    >
    >> Do you think the movies will be included in future releases?

    >
    > Since they've already been released I doubt they'll include them in
    > the sets, although it is possible. Warner is doing a boxed set of the
    > Babylon 5 movies and it includes the two they already released (The
    > Gathering/In the Beginning).
    >
    > The three movies are:
    > 1) Mask of the Phantasm


    As an aside, if you haven't seen MOTP, please do. It's a fantastic
    Batman movie, but is unjustly overlooked.


    --

    Aaron J. Bossig

    http://www.GodsLabRat.com
    http://www.Daily-Reviews.com
    Aaron J. Bossig, Jul 25, 2004
    #12
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