Vent

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Shane, Mar 17, 2006.

  1. Shane

    Shane Guest

    What a frikkin nightmare
    Wintec gave me a shiny free XP license complete with iso (some msdnaa
    initiative)
    Like any student, they said free I said hell yes
    I need windows for some of my course work (frikkin programming a .net
    language (more gripe on that to come)) so I took the offer of freebies and
    came home to install.
    What a mistake that was, installing was simple enough(wth is a license key
    fer??? :) I deleted an old partition and put an NTFS partition of the same
    size in to replace it (Ive done that with Linux often enough)
    The obligatory updates (hell [K]ubuntu needed updates when it was freshly
    installed) werent major and then down to business install my 8 MB
    interpreter.. and then download the 35 MB!!! dependencies
    (This made me laugh after seeing posts about dependency hell on linux)
    so far so good, thought I would boot back into linux to do some office work
    woops
    I was expecting windows to screw my mbr (hell why do people think microsoft
    are so clever when they cant even put a simple "do you want to update your
    mbr with our shit" Q in the installation??)
    So it was a simple .. boot to anything that will give me a shell, chroot ,
    and grub install right.. wrong
    2 hours later I realise that windows has screwed my partition table.. still
    havent worked out why
    I have *finally* managed to reinstall grub and get it to boot the right
    kernel image/partition *without* losing all my data (yeah I know always
    back shit up.. but Im a lazy student remember)
    All this on a friday night to :\
     
    Shane, Mar 17, 2006
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. T'was the Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:35:08 +1300 when I remembered Shane
    <-a-geek.net> saying something like this:

    >What a frikkin nightmare
    >Wintec gave me a shiny free XP license complete with iso (some msdnaa
    >initiative)


    Hey Shane, I'm the Microsoft Student Ambassador for the University of
    Waikato. While I'm not the SA for Wintec, I was there at the launch
    and I'm available to help you out. Drop me an email wwk3 at waikato
    dot ac dot nz.

    I read you had a bad experience, sometimes this does happen. My
    advice, have backup copies of your partition table, and of your data
    of course. Especially if upgrading operating systems. There are still
    unforseen things that can happen resulting in loss of data. I lost
    100GB recently. Wasn't happy.

    Why are you not happy programming with .NET? Is it C# or VB.NET or C++
    or J#? What'd you think of the Visual Web Developer demo at the Weltec
    launch?
    --
    Cheers,

    Waylon Kenning.
    See my blog at http://spaces.msn.com/WaylonKenning/
     
    Waylon Kenning, Mar 17, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Shane

    Shane Guest

    Waylon Kenning wrote:

    > T'was the Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:35:08 +1300 when I remembered Shane
    > <-a-geek.net> saying something like this:
    >
    >>What a frikkin nightmare
    >>Wintec gave me a shiny free XP license complete with iso (some msdnaa
    >>initiative)

    >
    > Hey Shane, I'm the Microsoft Student Ambassador for the University of
    > Waikato. While I'm not the SA for Wintec, I was there at the launch
    > and I'm available to help you out. Drop me an email wwk3 at waikato
    > dot ac dot nz.
    >
    > I read you had a bad experience, sometimes this does happen. My
    > advice, have backup copies of your partition table, and of your data
    > of course. Especially if upgrading operating systems. There are still
    > unforseen things that can happen resulting in loss of data. I lost
    > 100GB recently. Wasn't happy.
    >

    The funny thing is... I have replaced that partition with *several* OS's
    previously with no issue
    Using the same process of deleting that partition recreating that partition
    and formatting with the native filesystem for that new OS
    examples:
    FreeBSD has existed there (UFS)
    Linux has existed there (ext2, ext3, reisersfs)
    Solaris for x86 existed there (Forgotten the name of their fs)

    Amateurs can do it.....

    Put windows xp on ... and hell comes to town... Im fairly sure where the
    problem lies
    I *still* havent worked out why they dont put a simple step in the
    installation asking me what I want done on my MBR
    are they morons?
    I repeat
    Amateurs can dot it.....

    > Why are you not happy programming with .NET? Is it C# or VB.NET or C++
    > or J#? What'd you think of the Visual Web Developer demo at the Weltec
    > launch?


    Damian is our shill :)

    Why would I be happy programming a comp.sci.lang that I *cant* use on 80% of
    my machines
    There is mono, but thats not nearly good enough .. yet
    C++ I can program anywhere
    Java I can program anywhere

    Also the visual web developer studio, the demo itself, and I dont like to
    say this, a dry subject such as programming can be difficult to demonstrate
    to a room full of people
    This was made excruciating painful by the young lady having a strong accent
    which put a lot of students off
    The product itself looks like NVu with extra languages + sql server added
    I dont like these types of products (although I did use nvu to show me how
    tables work) as they may create holes in the background which is a *great*
    idea on a website wouldnt you agree?
     
    Shane, Mar 17, 2006
    #3
  4. Shane

    Shane Guest

    Shane wrote:

    > Waylon Kenning wrote:
    >
    >> T'was the Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:35:08 +1300 when I remembered Shane
    >> <-a-geek.net> saying something like this:
    >>
    >>>What a frikkin nightmare
    >>>Wintec gave me a shiny free XP license complete with iso (some msdnaa
    >>>initiative)

    >>
    >> Hey Shane, I'm the Microsoft Student Ambassador for the University of
    >> Waikato. While I'm not the SA for Wintec, I was there at the launch
    >> and I'm available to help you out. Drop me an email wwk3 at waikato
    >> dot ac dot nz.


    > Damian is our shill :)
    >



    Oh and before you get carried away. unless this cd I have is different in
    any way to standard generic XP Pro SP2, then this isnt an MSDNAA issue
     
    Shane, Mar 17, 2006
    #4
  5. Shane

    Enkidu Guest

    Shane wrote:
    > Waylon Kenning wrote:
    >
    >
    >>T'was the Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:35:08 +1300 when I remembered Shane
    >><-a-geek.net> saying something like this:
    >>
    >>
    >>>What a frikkin nightmare
    >>>Wintec gave me a shiny free XP license complete with iso (some msdnaa
    >>>initiative)

    >>
    >>Hey Shane, I'm the Microsoft Student Ambassador for the University of
    >>Waikato. While I'm not the SA for Wintec, I was there at the launch
    >>and I'm available to help you out. Drop me an email wwk3 at waikato
    >>dot ac dot nz.
    >>
    >>I read you had a bad experience, sometimes this does happen. My
    >>advice, have backup copies of your partition table, and of your data
    >>of course. Especially if upgrading operating systems. There are still
    >>unforseen things that can happen resulting in loss of data. I lost
    >>100GB recently. Wasn't happy.
    >>

    >
    > The funny thing is... I have replaced that partition with *several* OS's
    > previously with no issue
    > Using the same process of deleting that partition recreating that partition
    > and formatting with the native filesystem for that new OS
    > examples:
    > FreeBSD has existed there (UFS)
    > Linux has existed there (ext2, ext3, reisersfs)
    > Solaris for x86 existed there (Forgotten the name of their fs)
    >
    > Amateurs can do it.....
    >
    > Put windows xp on ... and hell comes to town... Im fairly sure where the
    > problem lies
    > I *still* havent worked out why they dont put a simple step in the
    > installation asking me what I want done on my MBR
    > are they morons?
    >

    They don't cater for multiboot. Why should they?

    Cheers,

    Cliff
     
    Enkidu, Mar 17, 2006
    #5
  6. Shane

    Enkidu Guest

    Shane wrote:
    > What a frikkin nightmare
    > Wintec gave me a shiny free XP license complete with iso (some msdnaa
    > initiative)
    > Like any student, they said free I said hell yes
    > I need windows for some of my course work (frikkin programming a .net
    > language (more gripe on that to come)) so I took the offer of freebies and
    > came home to install.
    > What a mistake that was, installing was simple enough(wth is a license key
    > fer??? :) I deleted an old partition and put an NTFS partition of the same
    > size in to replace it (Ive done that with Linux often enough)
    > The obligatory updates (hell [K]ubuntu needed updates when it was freshly
    > installed) werent major and then down to business install my 8 MB
    > interpreter.. and then download the 35 MB!!! dependencies
    > (This made me laugh after seeing posts about dependency hell on linux)
    > so far so good, thought I would boot back into linux to do some office work
    > woops
    > I was expecting windows to screw my mbr (hell why do people think microsoft
    > are so clever when they cant even put a simple "do you want to update your
    > mbr with our shit" Q in the installation??)
    > So it was a simple .. boot to anything that will give me a shell, chroot ,
    > and grub install right.. wrong
    > 2 hours later I realise that windows has screwed my partition table.. still
    > havent worked out why
    > I have *finally* managed to reinstall grub and get it to boot the right
    > kernel image/partition *without* losing all my data (yeah I know always
    > back shit up.. but Im a lazy student remember)
    > All this on a friday night to :\
    >
    >

    PEBAK. I've done this several times without problems. As long as you
    know what you are doing, it's no big deal. I always keep a bootable
    Linux CD on hand to recover the MBR after the install. I've never had a
    Windows install munge the partition table.

    It's a lot easier to install Windows first though.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
     
    Enkidu, Mar 17, 2006
    #6
  7. Shane

    Shane Guest

    Enkidu wrote:

    > Shane wrote:
    >> Waylon Kenning wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>T'was the Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:35:08 +1300 when I remembered Shane
    >>><-a-geek.net> saying something like this:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>What a frikkin nightmare
    >>>>Wintec gave me a shiny free XP license complete with iso (some msdnaa
    >>>>initiative)
    >>>
    >>>Hey Shane, I'm the Microsoft Student Ambassador for the University of
    >>>Waikato. While I'm not the SA for Wintec, I was there at the launch
    >>>and I'm available to help you out. Drop me an email wwk3 at waikato
    >>>dot ac dot nz.
    >>>
    >>>I read you had a bad experience, sometimes this does happen. My
    >>>advice, have backup copies of your partition table, and of your data
    >>>of course. Especially if upgrading operating systems. There are still
    >>>unforseen things that can happen resulting in loss of data. I lost
    >>>100GB recently. Wasn't happy.
    >>>

    >>
    >> The funny thing is... I have replaced that partition with *several* OS's
    >> previously with no issue
    >> Using the same process of deleting that partition recreating that
    >> partition and formatting with the native filesystem for that new OS
    >> examples:
    >> FreeBSD has existed there (UFS)
    >> Linux has existed there (ext2, ext3, reisersfs)
    >> Solaris for x86 existed there (Forgotten the name of their fs)
    >>
    >> Amateurs can do it.....
    >>
    >> Put windows xp on ... and hell comes to town... Im fairly sure where the
    >> problem lies
    >> I *still* havent worked out why they dont put a simple step in the
    >> installation asking me what I want done on my MBR
    >> are they morons?
    >>

    > They don't cater for multiboot. Why should they?
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff


    IIRC Windows NT/2k/XP *all* cater for multi-boot scenarios.. of Microsoft
    products..

    Ive been thinking about the issues I have.. is it
    a) Arrogance, they are Microsoft and no other product exists
    b) Incompetence, they arent capable of putting a step in their installer
    asking me if I want the MBR changed
    c)Malice, They are deliberately making it so I cant use my data as
    punishment for using Unix like OS's

    As for the partition table f*ck up.. thats pure incompetence, the installer
    doesnt let me just overwrite a partition with a new Filesystem
    Recreating the new partition changes the addresses of previous partitions
    (/dev/hda3 is now /dev/hda4 and /dev/hda4 is now /dev/hda3.. which was a
    prick for me because they were different (incompatible) filesystems)
    As I said elsewhere, FreeBSD, Solaris for x86, and various Linux flavours
    had no problem doing what I asked, without disrupting other partitions
    And (with the exception of solaris) they are maintained by amateurs.
    Im tempted to wipe the crap(tm) product from my drive

    ps.. if you had read my OP properly you would have seen I described how to
    restore the MBR

    > So it was a simple .. boot to anything that will give me a shell, chroot ,
    > and grub install right.. wrong


    seeing as you need it spelled out, boot to anything that will give me a
    shell includes.. livecds, tomsrtbt(my favourite) rescue boot floppys, or
    *even* mount the hard drive from a another harddrive running linux
     
    Shane, Mar 17, 2006
    #7
  8. Shane

    Enkidu Guest

    Shane wrote:
    > Enkidu wrote:
    >
    >
    >> Shane wrote:
    >>
    >>> Waylon Kenning wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> T'was the Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:35:08 +1300 when I remembered
    >>>> Shane <-a-geek.net> saying something like this:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> What a frikkin nightmare Wintec gave me a shiny free XP
    >>>>> license complete with iso (some msdnaa initiative)
    >>>>
    >>>> Hey Shane, I'm the Microsoft Student Ambassador for the
    >>>> University of Waikato. While I'm not the SA for Wintec, I was
    >>>> there at the launch and I'm available to help you out. Drop me
    >>>> an email wwk3 at waikato dot ac dot nz.
    >>>>
    >>>> I read you had a bad experience, sometimes this does happen. My
    >>>> advice, have backup copies of your partition table, and of
    >>>> your data of course. Especially if upgrading operating systems.
    >>>> There are still unforseen things that can happen resulting in
    >>>> loss of data. I lost 100GB recently. Wasn't happy.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> The funny thing is... I have replaced that partition with
    >>> *several* OS's previously with no issue Using the same process of
    >>> deleting that partition recreating that partition and formatting
    >>> with the native filesystem for that new OS examples: FreeBSD has
    >>> existed there (UFS) Linux has existed there (ext2, ext3,
    >>> reisersfs) Solaris for x86 existed there (Forgotten the name of
    >>> their fs)
    >>>
    >>> Amateurs can do it.....
    >>>
    >>> Put windows xp on ... and hell comes to town... Im fairly sure
    >>> where the problem lies I *still* havent worked out why they dont
    >>> put a simple step in the installation asking me what I want done
    >>> on my MBR are they morons?
    >>>

    >>
    >> They don't cater for multiboot. Why should they?
    >>
    >> Cheers,
    >>
    >> Cliff

    >
    >
    > IIRC Windows NT/2k/XP *all* cater for multi-boot scenarios.. of
    > Microsoft products..
    >
    > Ive been thinking about the issues I have.. is it a) Arrogance, they
    > are Microsoft and no other product exists b) Incompetence, they arent
    > capable of putting a step in their installer asking me if I want the
    > MBR changed c)Malice, They are deliberately making it so I cant use
    > my data as punishment for using Unix like OS's
    >
    > As for the partition table f*ck up.. thats pure incompetence, the
    > installer doesnt let me just overwrite a partition with a new
    > Filesystem Recreating the new partition changes the addresses of
    > previous partitions (/dev/hda3 is now /dev/hda4 and /dev/hda4 is now
    > /dev/hda3.. which was a prick for me because they were different
    > (incompatible) filesystems) As I said elsewhere, FreeBSD, Solaris for
    > x86, and various Linux flavours had no problem doing what I asked,
    > without disrupting other partitions And (with the exception of
    > solaris) they are maintained by amateurs. Im tempted to wipe the
    > crap(tm) product from my drive
    >

    I've installed Windows on system that already had Linux. As I said it is
    no drama. No changing of partition numbers. What was your partition
    setup before and after? Which partitions were logical partitions in an
    extended partition?
    >
    > ps.. if you had read my OP properly you would have seen I described
    > how to restore the MBR
    >

    Yes, grub-install. But that does NOTHING to the partition table. The
    installer DOES allow you to replace a partition with another type of
    partition. At a bare minimum you could flip the type bits rather than
    delete and recreate.
    >
    >> So it was a simple .. boot to anything that will give me a shell,
    >> chroot , and grub install right.. wrong

    >
    > seeing as you need it spelled out, boot to anything that will give me
    > a shell includes.. livecds, tomsrtbt(my favourite) rescue boot
    > floppys, or *even* mount the hard drive from a another harddrive
    > running linux
    >

    Why are you saying this? I know how to repair an MBR. I use a USB key
    drive with Linux on it if the system supports it.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
     
    Enkidu, Mar 18, 2006
    #8
  9. Shane

    Shane Guest

    Enkidu wrote:

    > Shane wrote:
    >> Enkidu wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> Shane wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Waylon Kenning wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> T'was the Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:35:08 +1300 when I remembered
    >>>>> Shane <-a-geek.net> saying something like this:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> What a frikkin nightmare Wintec gave me a shiny free XP
    >>>>>> license complete with iso (some msdnaa initiative)
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Hey Shane, I'm the Microsoft Student Ambassador for the
    >>>>> University of Waikato. While I'm not the SA for Wintec, I was
    >>>>> there at the launch and I'm available to help you out. Drop me
    >>>>> an email wwk3 at waikato dot ac dot nz.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I read you had a bad experience, sometimes this does happen. My
    >>>>> advice, have backup copies of your partition table, and of
    >>>>> your data of course. Especially if upgrading operating systems.
    >>>>> There are still unforseen things that can happen resulting in
    >>>>> loss of data. I lost 100GB recently. Wasn't happy.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> The funny thing is... I have replaced that partition with
    >>>> *several* OS's previously with no issue Using the same process of
    >>>> deleting that partition recreating that partition and formatting
    >>>> with the native filesystem for that new OS examples: FreeBSD has
    >>>> existed there (UFS) Linux has existed there (ext2, ext3,
    >>>> reisersfs) Solaris for x86 existed there (Forgotten the name of
    >>>> their fs)
    >>>>
    >>>> Amateurs can do it.....
    >>>>
    >>>> Put windows xp on ... and hell comes to town... Im fairly sure
    >>>> where the problem lies I *still* havent worked out why they dont
    >>>> put a simple step in the installation asking me what I want done
    >>>> on my MBR are they morons?
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> They don't cater for multiboot. Why should they?
    >>>
    >>> Cheers,
    >>>
    >>> Cliff

    >>
    >>
    >> IIRC Windows NT/2k/XP *all* cater for multi-boot scenarios.. of
    >> Microsoft products..
    >>
    >> Ive been thinking about the issues I have.. is it a) Arrogance, they
    >> are Microsoft and no other product exists b) Incompetence, they arent
    >> capable of putting a step in their installer asking me if I want the
    >> MBR changed c)Malice, They are deliberately making it so I cant use
    >> my data as punishment for using Unix like OS's
    >>
    >> As for the partition table f*ck up.. thats pure incompetence, the
    >> installer doesnt let me just overwrite a partition with a new
    >> Filesystem Recreating the new partition changes the addresses of
    >> previous partitions (/dev/hda3 is now /dev/hda4 and /dev/hda4 is now
    >> /dev/hda3.. which was a prick for me because they were different
    >> (incompatible) filesystems) As I said elsewhere, FreeBSD, Solaris for
    >> x86, and various Linux flavours had no problem doing what I asked,
    >> without disrupting other partitions And (with the exception of
    >> solaris) they are maintained by amateurs. Im tempted to wipe the
    >> crap(tm) product from my drive
    >>

    > I've installed Windows on system that already had Linux. As I said it is
    > no drama. No changing of partition numbers. What was your partition
    > setup before and after? Which partitions were logical partitions in an
    > extended partition?
    >>

    *shakes head*
    You sure youre not lennier?


    >> ps.. if you had read my OP properly you would have seen I described
    >> how to restore the MBR
    >>

    > Yes, grub-install. But that does NOTHING to the partition table. The
    > installer DOES allow you to replace a partition with another type of
    > partition. At a bare minimum you could flip the type bits rather than
    > delete and recreate.


    youre not reading properly
    where do I say grub install changes the partition table?
    The windows installer did *NOT* allow a simple reformat
    I had to delete the partition and recreate it
    even still Ive done this with linux fdisk, cfdisk et al with no issues
    Never has the partition table been remapped

    >>
    >>> So it was a simple .. boot to anything that will give me a shell,
    >>> chroot , and grub install right.. wrong

    >>
    >> seeing as you need it spelled out, boot to anything that will give me
    >> a shell includes.. livecds, tomsrtbt(my favourite) rescue boot
    >> floppys, or *even* mount the hard drive from a another harddrive
    >> running linux
    >>

    > Why are you saying this? I know how to repair an MBR. I use a USB key
    > drive with Linux on it if the system supports it.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff


    I suggest you go have a lie down
    >>PEBAK. I've done this several times without problems. As long as you
    >>know what you are doing, it's no big deal. I always keep a bootable
    >>Linux CD on hand to recover the MBR after the install. I've never had a
    >>Windows install munge the partition table.


    so you were just being repetitive?

    >>It's a lot easier to install Windows first though.


    How many times have you installed windows to a HDD with *multiple* OSes on
    it (not only linux)
     
    Shane, Mar 18, 2006
    #9
  10. On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 14:21:05 +1300, Shane wrote:

    >>> As for the partition table f*ck up.. thats pure incompetence, the
    >>> installer doesnt let me just overwrite a partition with a new
    >>> Filesystem Recreating the new partition changes the addresses of
    >>> previous partitions (/dev/hda3 is now /dev/hda4 and /dev/hda4 is now
    >>> /dev/hda3.. which was a prick for me because they were different
    >>> (incompatible) filesystems) As I said elsewhere, FreeBSD, Solaris for
    >>> x86, and various Linux flavours had no problem doing what I asked,
    >>> without disrupting other partitions And (with the exception of
    >>> solaris) they are maintained by amateurs. Im tempted to wipe the
    >>> crap(tm) product from my drive
    >>>

    >> I've installed Windows on system that already had Linux. As I said it is
    >> no drama. No changing of partition numbers. What was your partition
    >> setup before and after? Which partitions were logical partitions in an
    >> extended partition?
    >>>

    > *shakes head*
    > You sure youre not lennier?


    You quite clearly know neither who you are talking to, nor how much
    experience he has, nor how to use punctuation - or capitalisation, nor
    even what you're doing with your computer!

    If you did, then you wouldn't have such an arrogant attitude towards the
    person who has been trying to help you.

    And as for describing the developers of *BSD as "amateurs"... well that
    only shows just how totally clueless you really are.

    I strongly suggest that if you wish to continue receiving help from the
    knowledgeable people in this newsgroup, then you pull your head in!


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Joe Barr: "So the question is not 'Is Microsoft lying?' It's deeper than
    that. The real question is, 'Is Microsoft capable of honesty?' And if you
    decide - as I have - that they are not, the next question becomes, 'Do I
    really want to do business with, to trust my business to, a company like that?'"
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 18, 2006
    #10
  11. Shane

    Shane Guest

    Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:

    > On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 14:21:05 +1300, Shane wrote:
    >
    >>>> As for the partition table f*ck up.. thats pure incompetence, the
    >>>> installer doesnt let me just overwrite a partition with a new
    >>>> Filesystem Recreating the new partition changes the addresses of
    >>>> previous partitions (/dev/hda3 is now /dev/hda4 and /dev/hda4 is now
    >>>> /dev/hda3.. which was a prick for me because they were different
    >>>> (incompatible) filesystems) As I said elsewhere, FreeBSD, Solaris for
    >>>> x86, and various Linux flavours had no problem doing what I asked,
    >>>> without disrupting other partitions And (with the exception of
    >>>> solaris) they are maintained by amateurs. Im tempted to wipe the
    >>>> crap(tm) product from my drive
    >>>>
    >>> I've installed Windows on system that already had Linux. As I said it is
    >>> no drama. No changing of partition numbers. What was your partition
    >>> setup before and after? Which partitions were logical partitions in an
    >>> extended partition?
    >>>>

    >> *shakes head*
    >> You sure youre not lennier?

    >
    > You quite clearly know neither who you are talking to, nor how much
    > experience he has, nor how to use punctuation - or capitalisation, nor
    > even what you're doing with your computer!
    >
    > If you did, then you wouldn't have such an arrogant attitude towards the
    > person who has been trying to help you.
    >
    > And as for describing the developers of *BSD as "amateurs"... well that
    > only shows just how totally clueless you really are.
    >
    > I strongly suggest that if you wish to continue receiving help from the
    > knowledgeable people in this newsgroup, then you pull your head in!
    >
    >
    > Have A Nice Cup of Tea
    >

    ROTFLMFAO!!!!!
     
    Shane, Mar 18, 2006
    #11
  12. Shane

    Shane Guest

    Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:

    > And as for describing the developers of *BSD as "amateurs"... well that
    > only shows just how totally clueless you really are.
    >


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur
    The word amateur has at least two connotations. In the first, more widely
    used manner, it means someone performing some task without pay, in contrast
    to a "professional" who would be paid for the same task


    you crack me up moron
    capitalise that
     
    Shane, Mar 18, 2006
    #12
  13. Shane wrote:
    > Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:
    >>And as for describing the developers of *BSD as "amateurs"... well that
    >>only shows just how totally clueless you really are.

    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur
    > The word amateur has at least two connotations. In the first, more widely
    > used manner, it means someone performing some task without pay, in contrast
    > to a "professional" who would be paid for the same task


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD
     
    Mark Robinson, Mar 18, 2006
    #13
  14. Shane

    Shane Guest

    Mark Robinson wrote:

    > Shane wrote:
    >> Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:
    >>>And as for describing the developers of *BSD as "amateurs"... well that
    >>>only shows just how totally clueless you really are.

    >>
    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur
    >> The word amateur has at least two connotations. In the first, more widely
    >> used manner, it means someone performing some task without pay, in
    >> contrast to a "professional" who would be paid for the same task

    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD


    Im seeing a site referring to the history of BSD (in fact Ive posted this
    information myself before)
    Im not seeing where they are paid specifically to develop BSD
    nor am I seeing where I paid for said code
     
    Shane, Mar 18, 2006
    #14
  15. Shane

    Gordon Guest

    On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:35:08 +1300, Shane wrote:

    > What a frikkin nightmare
    > Wintec gave me a shiny free XP license complete with iso (some msdnaa
    > initiative)


    {snip} story of how MS windows messed up the timeflow

    Never ever, install MS windows on anything which there is another OS on.
    Vica verca is probably okay.
     
    Gordon, Mar 18, 2006
    #15
  16. Shane

    Gordon Guest

    On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:11:17 +1300, Shane wrote:

    > I *still* havent worked out why they dont put a simple step in the
    > installation asking me what I want done on my MBR
    > are they morons?


    No, just arogrant.
     
    Gordon, Mar 18, 2006
    #16
  17. T'was the Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:11:17 +1300 when I remembered Shane
    <-a-geek.net> saying something like this:

    >Put windows xp on ... and hell comes to town... Im fairly sure where the
    >problem lies
    >I *still* havent worked out why they dont put a simple step in the
    >installation asking me what I want done on my MBR
    >are they morons?
    >I repeat
    >Amateurs can dot it.....


    I agree with the MBR stuff. Finer install detail would be nice, if
    made optional.

    >> Why are you not happy programming with .NET? Is it C# or VB.NET or C++
    >> or J#? What'd you think of the Visual Web Developer demo at the Weltec
    >> launch?

    >
    >Damian is our shill :)
    >
    >Why would I be happy programming a comp.sci.lang that I *cant* use on 80% of
    >my machines
    >There is mono, but thats not nearly good enough .. yet
    >C++ I can program anywhere
    >Java I can program anywhere


    I guess it's each unversity/polytech's choice on what programming
    languages to teach. It's C#/VB.NET here at Waikato in the first year,
    C++ with GCC/VB.NET for the second year, third year I don't know. From
    the senior lecturer I was talking to, he said a lot of the course
    material revolved around winforms, meaning C# was essentially the
    language of choice.

    >Also the visual web developer studio, the demo itself, and I dont like to
    >say this, a dry subject such as programming can be difficult to demonstrate
    >to a room full of people
    >This was made excruciating painful by the young lady having a strong accent
    >which put a lot of students off
    >The product itself looks like NVu with extra languages + sql server added
    >I dont like these types of products (although I did use nvu to show me how
    >tables work) as they may create holes in the background which is a *great*
    >idea on a website wouldnt you agree?


    Sometimes it's hard to understand people with accents. I agree. I'm
    going to be running some VWD demo sessions at Waikato sometime, you're
    welcome to come if you like.

    In terms of what they do, the login/user side of VWD has had literally
    hundreds of man hour development put into it. Compared to say a pretty
    crappy authentication module I could write with MySQL and PHP, to be
    honest, I know which one I'd rather pick. Bare in mind there are
    limitations with pre written code like this, but surely authentication
    and data access/manipulation have come along far enough that I don't
    have to keep reinventing the wheel?

    I guess it's a matter of trust. I trust the solutions that come with
    VWD to work and work right. They wont be perfect and may need patches,
    but then, if I wrote the code, it wouldn't work right, wouldn't be
    perfect at all, and I'm too lazy to write patches.

    I guess this is why I'm doing information systems management over pure
    computer science:)
    --
    Cheers,

    Waylon Kenning.
    See my blog at http://spaces.msn.com/WaylonKenning/
     
    Waylon Kenning, Mar 18, 2006
    #17
  18. Shane

    Shane Guest

    Waylon Kenning wrote:

    > T'was the Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:11:17 +1300 when I remembered Shane
    > <-a-geek.net> saying something like this:
    >
    >>Put windows xp on ... and hell comes to town... Im fairly sure where the
    >>problem lies
    >>I *still* havent worked out why they dont put a simple step in the
    >>installation asking me what I want done on my MBR
    >>are they morons?
    >>I repeat
    >>Amateurs can dot it.....

    >
    > I agree with the MBR stuff. Finer install detail would be nice, if
    > made optional.
    >
    >>> Why are you not happy programming with .NET? Is it C# or VB.NET or C++
    >>> or J#? What'd you think of the Visual Web Developer demo at the Weltec
    >>> launch?

    >>
    >>Damian is our shill :)
    >>
    >>Why would I be happy programming a comp.sci.lang that I *cant* use on 80%
    >>of my machines
    >>There is mono, but thats not nearly good enough .. yet
    >>C++ I can program anywhere
    >>Java I can program anywhere

    >
    > I guess it's each unversity/polytech's choice on what programming
    > languages to teach. It's C#/VB.NET here at Waikato in the first year,
    > C++ with GCC/VB.NET for the second year, third year I don't know. From
    > the senior lecturer I was talking to, he said a lot of the course
    > material revolved around winforms, meaning C# was essentially the
    > language of choice.
    >


    There has been debate on this subject on slashdot
    On the plus side a good C# developer is earning a good stack of beer trading
    material
    But this is normal for the <current hot favourite language>
    However something like C++ because of its portability ( I mean generally
    here because obviously some of the librarys are OS specific and cant be
    ported across) are still in big demand (more so as Linux takes a bigger
    step into mainstream, however the comp.sci.lang is still required for
    Solaris apps, BSD apps, Windows apps, well you get the idea)


    >>Also the visual web developer studio, the demo itself, and I dont like to
    >>say this, a dry subject such as programming can be difficult to
    >>demonstrate to a room full of people
    >>This was made excruciating painful by the young lady having a strong
    >>accent which put a lot of students off
    >>The product itself looks like NVu with extra languages + sql server added
    >>I dont like these types of products (although I did use nvu to show me how
    >>tables work) as they may create holes in the background which is a *great*
    >>idea on a website wouldnt you agree?

    >
    > Sometimes it's hard to understand people with accents. I agree. I'm
    > going to be running some VWD demo sessions at Waikato sometime, you're
    > welcome to come if you like.
    >


    Its not really me, partly because, as Ive stated, Im not a fan of this genre
    of product, and partly because web sites arent (yet?) my focus/fancy
    However if its OK with you I will recommend it to other wintec students who
    may find it interesting
    (Bearing in mind that I consort with first years :)

    > In terms of what they do, the login/user side of VWD has had literally
    > hundreds of man hour development put into it. Compared to say a pretty
    > crappy authentication module I could write with MySQL and PHP, to be
    > honest, I know which one I'd rather pick. Bare in mind there are
    > limitations with pre written code like this, but surely authentication
    > and data access/manipulation have come along far enough that I don't
    > have to keep reinventing the wheel?
    >


    The danger is, if a flaw is found (and realistically there is a high chance
    of one existing) then what happens is mr scripto kiddyo scans websites for
    that software and exploits the flaw
    Probably the best/worst example of a website package guilty of this is..
    phpbb
    Roll your own software may also have a flaw, but only your sites will have
    it.
    So at the very least, the person attacking the roll your own requires a
    higher level of skill to crack your site, vs some kid got told in #juarez
    how to scan and exploit <software>



    > I guess it's a matter of trust. I trust the solutions that come with
    > VWD to work and work right. They wont be perfect and may need patches,
    > but then, if I wrote the code, it wouldn't work right, wouldn't be
    > perfect at all, and I'm too lazy to write patches.
    >


    Definitely patching your own stuff ups is no fun
    Relying on others has its upsides and downsides
    One only has to look at certain systems that have had shortcomings, with
    users *begging* for patches to be released because the hole is being
    actively exploited and been made to wait, weeks, sometimes months


    > I guess this is why I'm doing information systems management over pure
    > computer science:)


    heh.. Id like to be doing slightly more pure comp.sci :)
     
    Shane, Mar 18, 2006
    #18
  19. Shane

    Don Hills Guest

    In article <>,
    Waylon Kenning <> wrote:

    (An offer to help Shane.)


    Whew. Waylon, I know you wrote it in all seriousness, but your post came
    across as so oleaginous(*) that I wanted to reach for a screenwipe after
    reading it. I'm sorry if this offends you, but after all this is Usenet,
    where opinions are like assholes.

    As for Shane's problem, I agree, a bit more info would be helpful to track
    it down. A dump of the MBR partition table and the tables of any extended
    partitions before and after the install would be ideal.

    (*)"Falsely or smugly earnest" - www.answers.com

    --
    Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
    "New interface closely resembles Presentation Manager,
    preparing you for the wonders of OS/2!"
    -- Advertisement on the box for Microsoft Windows 2.11 for 286
     
    Don Hills, Mar 18, 2006
    #19
  20. T'was the Sun, 19 Mar 2006 00:07:24 +1200 when I remembered
    (Don Hills) saying something like this:

    >Whew. Waylon, I know you wrote it in all seriousness, but your post came
    >across as so oleaginous(*) that I wanted to reach for a screenwipe after
    >reading it. I'm sorry if this offends you, but after all this is Usenet,
    >where opinions are like assholes.


    Haha, no, I find it quite funny actually, especially after looking up
    what oleaginous meant, including unctuous:)

    As for offense, I take none:) 5 years of usenet means nothing really
    offends me much anymore.

    Perhaps I was placating Shane a little, for that I am sorry. I was in
    "customer service" mode:)
    --
    Cheers,

    Waylon Kenning.
    See my blog at http://spaces.msn.com/WaylonKenning/
     
    Waylon Kenning, Mar 18, 2006
    #20
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