Use of Photshop negates reality

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Jack, Dec 20, 2005.

  1. Jack

    Jack Guest

    I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do this
    all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop) that
    seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This is
    no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?
     
    Jack, Dec 20, 2005
    #1
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  2. Jack

    Paul Guest

    A lot of pro's use some type of verification in their body. However, unless
    you are a Pap, then is it really necessary to use it?


    "Jack" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns973295BDFDC7Fadeljack@216.196.97.142...
    > I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    > was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do

    this
    > all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    > anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop)

    that
    > seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This

    is
    > no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    > a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    > will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?
     
    Paul, Dec 20, 2005
    #2
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  3. Jack <> wrote:
    >I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    >was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do this
    >all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    >anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop) that
    >seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This is


    Were you really *that* naive? Photographs have *never* been
    proof of anything other than that images can be put on paper.

    >no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    >a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    >will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?


    You couldn't tell that 50 years ago, and you can't tell that
    now.

    Have you ever had a photograph you've taken introduced as
    evidence in a court of law? The first thing that happens is
    they point blank as you if it is real and actually represents
    what it appears to. "Is this photograph a true and accurate
    representation of ..." You swear, as the one who is an expert on
    what the photograph shows, that it is. Nobody trusts the
    photograph itself. All that counts is the credibility of the
    expert who swears it is what it appears to be.

    If you lie you can go to jail...

    --
    Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
    Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
     
    Floyd Davidson, Dec 20, 2005
    #3
  4. Jack

    Scott W Guest

    Jack wrote:
    > I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    > was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do this
    > all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    > anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop) that
    > seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This is
    > no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    > a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    > will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?


    You could never trust a photograph. In the soviet Union they were all
    the time changing photos, air brushing out old leaders who were out of
    favor.

    Scott
     
    Scott W, Dec 20, 2005
    #4
  5. Jack <> writes:

    > I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    > was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do this
    > all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    > anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop) that
    > seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This is
    > no longer the case.


    This hasn't been true for decades. It's *easier* now, but it's been
    possible for a long time. You can do amazing compositing things in
    dye-transfer printing, for example.

    And photographs haven't generally been considered "proof"; in court
    the photographer or other witnesses testify that the photograph shows
    what they saw.

    > This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if a photo is
    > real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which will
    > indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?


    It's not easy, or often possible, to identify a composite image
    visually, if it's well done. Important clues include shadow angles
    and colors.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Dec 20, 2005
    #5
  6. Jack

    Gormless Guest

    "Jack" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns973295BDFDC7Fadeljack@216.196.97.142...
    > I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    > was made up of elements from four different pictures.


    Then it wasn't a photo.
    You don't "make" a photo using PS. You make a photo with a camera.
     
    Gormless, Dec 20, 2005
    #6

  7. > You could never trust a photograph. In the soviet Union they were all
    > the time changing photos, air brushing out old leaders who were out of
    > favor.


    They have also re-written history from time to time.
     
    Charles Schuler, Dec 20, 2005
    #7
  8. Jack

    Bill Funk Guest

    On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:43:11 -0600, Jack <> wrote:

    >I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    >was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do this
    >all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    >anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop) that
    >seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This is
    >no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    >a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    >will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?


    As others have said, photos have been manipulated as long as there has
    been photography. PS hasn't changed that, it's only made such
    manipulation available to more people.
    Back when Paint Shop Pro was shareware, I was demonstrating to our
    User Group how to manipulate digital photos to show all sorts of
    things that never happened; putting people in scenes, taking people
    out of scenes, altering buildings, erasing utility poles, and far
    more. And, in my B&W darkroom, I could alter 'reality' fairly easily,
    too.
    As for photos in court, any photo's accuracy must be attested to by
    witnesses under oath.
    As for telling if a photo is "real" or not, good luck.

    --
    Bill Funk
    Replace "g" with "a"
    funktionality.blogspot.com
     
    Bill Funk, Dec 20, 2005
    #8
  9. Jack

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Jack <> wrote:
    >I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    >was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do this
    >all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    >anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop) that
    >seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This is
    >no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    >a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    >will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?


    Some cameras (Canon 20D) have the ability to record a verification key
    that will show whether a photo has been altered.

    --
    Ray Fischer
     
    Ray Fischer, Dec 21, 2005
    #9
  10. Jack

    Jack Guest

    "Gormless" <> wrote in
    news::

    >
    > "Jack" <> wrote in message
    > news:Xns973295BDFDC7Fadeljack@216.196.97.142...
    >> I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality.
    >> It was made up of elements from four different pictures.

    >
    > Then it wasn't a photo.
    > You don't "make" a photo using PS. You make a photo with a camera.


    I stand corrected. It was an image.
     
    Jack, Dec 21, 2005
    #10
  11. Jack

    GTO Guest

    A picture alone was never strong evidence in court. But it was supportive
    evidence when the source and the way the picture has been obtained were
    verifiable. Digital photography has made it even easier to falsify images.
    Some camera manufacturers implemented the calculation of a secure key that
    is attached to the image when it is created. The key can only be recreated
    if all the bits remain in place. For example SHA-1 or MD5 could be used
    although collisions have been found.

    Gregor

    "Jack" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns973295BDFDC7Fadeljack@216.196.97.142...
    >I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    > was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do
    > this
    > all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    > anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop)
    > that
    > seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This
    > is
    > no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    > a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    > will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?
     
    GTO, Dec 21, 2005
    #11
  12. Jack

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Jack wrote:
    > I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    > was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do this
    > all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    > anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop) that
    > seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This is
    > no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    > a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    > will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?


    I believe that anyone sufficiently familiar with PS could detect any
    editing done with it. It would take a real expert to make a photo that
    was really hard to detect.
     
    Ron Hunter, Dec 21, 2005
    #12
  13. Jack

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Floyd Davidson wrote:
    > Jack <> wrote:
    >> I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    >> was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do this
    >> all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    >> anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop) that
    >> seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This is

    >
    > Were you really *that* naive? Photographs have *never* been
    > proof of anything other than that images can be put on paper.
    >
    >> no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    >> a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    >> will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?

    >
    > You couldn't tell that 50 years ago, and you can't tell that
    > now.
    >
    > Have you ever had a photograph you've taken introduced as
    > evidence in a court of law? The first thing that happens is
    > they point blank as you if it is real and actually represents
    > what it appears to. "Is this photograph a true and accurate
    > representation of ..." You swear, as the one who is an expert on
    > what the photograph shows, that it is. Nobody trusts the
    > photograph itself. All that counts is the credibility of the
    > expert who swears it is what it appears to be.
    >
    > If you lie you can go to jail...
    >
    > --
    > Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
    > Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)


    A photograph used for evidence in court must be judged by a 'chain of
    evidence' wherein everyone who touched that camera/image storage medium
    must swear that it is a true representation of the scene.
     
    Ron Hunter, Dec 21, 2005
    #13
  14. Jack

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Charles Schuler wrote:
    >> You could never trust a photograph. In the soviet Union they were all
    >> the time changing photos, air brushing out old leaders who were out of
    >> favor.

    >
    > They have also re-written history from time to time.
    >
    >

    That gets done in the US as well, especially by extremists on both sides
    of an issue.
     
    Ron Hunter, Dec 21, 2005
    #14
  15. On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:43:11 -0600, Jack <> wrote:

    >I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    >was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do this
    >all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    >anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop) that
    >seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This is
    >no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    >a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    >will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?


    Photography in any form negates reality....

    I ask you what is a "real Photograph?"


    ******************************************************

    "I have been a witness, and these pictures are
    my testimony. The events I have recorded should
    not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

    -James Nachtwey-
    http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/
     
    John A. Stovall, Dec 21, 2005
    #15
  16. Jack

    spudnuty Guest

    As others have said, photos have been manipulated as long as there has
    been photography. PS hasn't changed that, it's only made such
    manipulation available to more people.
    >...I was demonstrating to our
    >User Group how to manipulate digital photos to show all sorts of
    >things that never happened; putting people in scenes, taking people
    >out of scenes, altering buildings, erasing utility poles, and far
    >more. And, in my B&W darkroom, I could alter 'reality' fairly easily,
    >too.

    If you've seen "Forest Gump" you know how far you can take this. Even
    in seemingly "archival" footage.
    >As others have said, photos have been manipulated as long as there has
    >been photography

    They used to tint Daugarotypes and tintypes, remember "pinhole eyes" in
    photos from the '40S, fake "spirit" photos from the turn of the
    century, I knew a lot of photo retouchers from the '50s who did amazing
    stuff with razor blades and they worked for Playboy.
    >As for telling if a photo is "real" or not, good luck.

    Well it's certainly not perfect but here's an interesting article from
    the Times:
    http://tech2.nytimes.com/mem/technology/techreview.html?res=9806EEDE1E3AF931A15754C0A9629C8B63
    Richard
     
    spudnuty, Dec 21, 2005
    #16
  17. Ron Hunter <> wrote:
    >Floyd Davidson wrote:
    >> Jack <> wrote:
    >>> I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    >>> was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do this
    >>> all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    >>> anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop) that
    >>> seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This is

    >> Were you really *that* naive? Photographs have *never* been
    >> proof of anything other than that images can be put on paper.
    >>
    >>> no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    >>> a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    >>> will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?

    >> You couldn't tell that 50 years ago, and you can't tell that
    >> now.
    >> Have you ever had a photograph you've taken introduced as
    >> evidence in a court of law? The first thing that happens is
    >> they point blank as you if it is real and actually represents
    >> what it appears to. "Is this photograph a true and accurate
    >> representation of ..." You swear, as the one who is an expert on
    >> what the photograph shows, that it is. Nobody trusts the
    >> photograph itself. All that counts is the credibility of the
    >> expert who swears it is what it appears to be.
    >> If you lie you can go to jail...
    >> --
    >> Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
    >> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

    >
    >A photograph used for evidence in court must be judged by a 'chain of
    >evidence' wherein everyone who touched that camera/image storage medium
    >must swear that it is a true representation of the scene.


    So, you watch TV, but have never been in court, eh?

    Just for starters... no lawyer that has touched that picture
    will have to testify.

    As I said, if *you* are the photographer, *you* are the expert witness
    who will be asked to verify it, under oath. They will *not* ask who
    did the film processing, who printed the picture, etc. etc.

    --
    Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
    Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
     
    Floyd Davidson, Dec 21, 2005
    #17
  18. Jack

    Dave Cohen Guest

    "John A. Stovall" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:43:11 -0600, Jack <> wrote:
    >
    >>I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    >>was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do
    >>this
    >>all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    >>anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop)
    >>that
    >>seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This
    >>is
    >>no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    >>a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    >>will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?

    >
    > Photography in any form negates reality....
    >
    > I ask you what is a "real Photograph?"
    >
    >
    > ******************************************************
    >
    > "I have been a witness, and these pictures are
    > my testimony. The events I have recorded should
    > not be forgotten and must not be repeated."
    >
    > -James Nachtwey-
    > http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/


    I have a picture of wife and self with London Bridge in the background.
    Wouldn't fool anyone, but point is it was made using PagePlus, a much less
    expensive editor than PhotoShop and had it been made in PhotoShop it still
    wouldn't have fooled anyone. So why does posting in this group automatically
    assume the only editor out there is ps, a product that costs more than the
    darned camera!!
    Dave Cohen
     
    Dave Cohen, Dec 21, 2005
    #18
  19. On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:39:50 GMT, "Dave Cohen" <> wrote:

    >
    >"John A. Stovall" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:43:11 -0600, Jack <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>I just made a photo using Photoshop CS2 that has no basis in reality. It
    >>>was made up of elements from four different pictures. Of course we do
    >>>this
    >>>all the time, but it brings to mind the fact that you really can't believe
    >>>anything you see in a picture today. It used to be (before Photoshop)
    >>>that
    >>>seeing something in a photgraph was proof that something happened. This
    >>>is
    >>>no longer the case. This leads me to ask the question, how do you tell if
    >>>a photo is real? Can you tell me if there are things to look for which
    >>>will indicate that a photo has been "photoshoped"?

    >>
    >> Photography in any form negates reality....
    >>
    >> I ask you what is a "real Photograph?"
    >>
    >>
    >> ******************************************************
    >>
    >> "I have been a witness, and these pictures are
    >> my testimony. The events I have recorded should
    >> not be forgotten and must not be repeated."
    >>
    >> -James Nachtwey-
    >> http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/

    >
    >I have a picture of wife and self with London Bridge in the background.
    >Wouldn't fool anyone, but point is it was made using PagePlus, a much less
    >expensive editor than PhotoShop and had it been made in PhotoShop it still
    >wouldn't have fooled anyone. So why does posting in this group automatically
    >assume the only editor out there is ps, a product that costs more than the
    >darned camera!!
    >Dave Cohen


    You must have a very cheap camera.


    >
     
    John A. Stovall, Dec 21, 2005
    #19
  20. Jack

    Annika1980 Guest

    Taking a photo negates reality.
     
    Annika1980, Dec 21, 2005
    #20
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