US Motion picture studios suing Samsung over DRM bypassing

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Goro, Feb 23, 2006.

  1. Goro

    Goro Guest

    Hurry, everyone buy SAMSUNG products!

    They are currently being sued by US movie studios for having a DVD
    player that bypasses Region Coding and HDCP! Hey, ANY manufacturer
    that bypasses DRM is worthy of MY support. I'll take a DOZEN! (i hear
    it's not really that great a DVD player, htough). I wonder if it also
    bypasses PUOPs...

    -goro-

    http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/20/samsung-sued-over-dvd-duping-by-discontinued-player/

    Like a number older DVD players, Samsung's long-discontinued DVD-HD841
    can be hacked via a sequence of remote-control keystrokes to, among
    other things, become a region-free player and disable copy protection.
    And even though Samsung stopped selling the DVD-HD841 in the US in
    October 2004, the big US movie studios have decided to make an example
    of the company. Disney, Time Warner, Fox, Paramount and Universal have
    filed a suit against Samsung, demanding that the company recall all
    affected players. Samsung execs are puzzled by the lawsuit and can't
    understand why the studios are going after the company over a player
    that the company says was discontinued after the copy-circumvention
    issue came to light. In the meantime, the lawsuit will likely only
    serve to call attention the player, which is still available via eBay
    and other sources for as little as $50. Thanks, guys!

    http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/biz/200602/kt2006021919273711910.htm

    Samsung Electronics, Asia's most valuable high-tech company, is
    scrambling after multiple U.S. movie studios reportedly took the
    Seoul-based firm to court, alleging glitches in its DVD players.

    Over the weekend, Bloomberg news reported Walt Disney, Time Warner and
    three other major film makers filed the lawsuit against Samsung in U.S.
    court.

    They claimed that Samsung's DVD players allowed consumers to avoid
    encryption features that prevent unauthorized duplication and demanded
    a recall of all the problematic products, Bloomberg said.

    The Motion Picture Association of America estimates that the movie
    industry lost $5.4 billion last year due to piracy.

    In response, Samsung refused to confirm the high-profile suit that
    involves Paramount Pictures, 20th Century Fox and Universal Studios on
    top of Disney and Time Warner.

    ``In fact, we do not exactly know the contents of the lawsuit and the
    intention of the plaintiffs. We have yet to receive the
    complaint,'' a Samsung spokesman said.

    He guessed that the film makers take issue with DVD-HD841, which
    Samsung had sold in the United States between June and October 2004.

    ``If so, I do not know why the movie studios are complaining about the
    products, of which production was brought to an end more than 15 months
    ago,'' the spokesman said.

    ``We stopped manufacturing the model after concerns erupted that its
    copy-protection features can be circumvented by sophisticated
    users,'' he said.

    In this climate, he said Samsung would react to the lawsuit after the
    outfit recognizes its real intention.

    Samsung Electronics is the flagship affiliate of Samsung Group, the
    nation's foremost conglomerate. It is the world's biggest maker of
    memory chips and flat-panel displays.
     
    Goro, Feb 23, 2006
    #1
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  2. Goro

    Jeff Rife Guest

    Goro () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > They claimed that Samsung's DVD players allowed consumers to avoid
    > encryption features that prevent unauthorized duplication and demanded
    > a recall of all the problematic products, Bloomberg said.


    This is a *great* lawsuit for the consumer.

    The Samsung player merely allows HDCP to be turned off. The movie studios
    will have to prove that HDCP actually could "prevent unauthorized
    duplication" in order to win their case.

    If they can't, then it would no longer be even a hint of a DMCA violation
    to disable HDCP, because DMCA only protects systems that prevent
    duplication...not those that prevent "unauthorized viewing".

    --
    Jeff Rife |
    | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Dilbert/LostPassword.gif
     
    Jeff Rife, Feb 23, 2006
    #2
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  3. Goro

    Goro Guest

    Jeff Rife wrote:
    > Goro () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > > They claimed that Samsung's DVD players allowed consumers to avoid
    > > encryption features that prevent unauthorized duplication and demanded
    > > a recall of all the problematic products, Bloomberg said.

    >
    > This is a *great* lawsuit for the consumer.
    >
    > The Samsung player merely allows HDCP to be turned off. The movie studios
    > will have to prove that HDCP actually could "prevent unauthorized
    > duplication" in order to win their case.
    >
    > If they can't, then it would no longer be even a hint of a DMCA violation
    > to disable HDCP, because DMCA only protects systems that prevent
    > duplication...not those that prevent "unauthorized viewing".


    of course, the great part is that they "demand a recall of the
    problematic product"... which is a no-longer produced item....
    erhmmm...

    -goro-
     
    Goro, Feb 23, 2006
    #3
  4. Goro

    Goro Guest

    Jeff Rife wrote:
    > Goro () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > > They claimed that Samsung's DVD players allowed consumers to avoid
    > > encryption features that prevent unauthorized duplication and demanded
    > > a recall of all the problematic products, Bloomberg said.

    >
    > This is a *great* lawsuit for the consumer.
    >
    > The Samsung player merely allows HDCP to be turned off. The movie studios
    > will have to prove that HDCP actually could "prevent unauthorized
    > duplication" in order to win their case.
    >
    > If they can't, then it would no longer be even a hint of a DMCA violation
    > to disable HDCP, because DMCA only protects systems that prevent
    > duplication...not those that prevent "unauthorized viewing".


    excuse me if i'm dense, but isn't it the case that they would need to
    show that DISABLING HDCP allows unauthorized duplication?

    -goro-
     
    Goro, Feb 23, 2006
    #4
  5. Goro

    GMAN Guest

    In article <>, "Goro" <> wrote:
    >Hurry, everyone buy SAMSUNG products!
    >


    >In response, Samsung refused to confirm the high-profile suit that
    >involves Paramount Pictures, 20th Century Fox and Universal Studios on
    >top of Disney and Time Warner.
    >


    Paramount hast o find some way of making money since they threw out the star
    trek franchise on its ass.


    >``In fact, we do not exactly know the contents of the lawsuit and the
    >intention of the plaintiffs. We have yet to receive the
    >complaint,'' a Samsung spokesman said.
    >
    >He guessed that the film makers take issue with DVD-HD841, which
    >Samsung had sold in the United States between June and October 2004.
    >
    >``If so, I do not know why the movie studios are complaining about the
    >products, of which production was brought to an end more than 15 months
    >ago,'' the spokesman said.
    >
    >``We stopped manufacturing the model after concerns erupted that its
    >copy-protection features can be circumvented by sophisticated
    >users,'' he said.
    >
    >In this climate, he said Samsung would react to the lawsuit after the
    >outfit recognizes its real intention.
    >
    >Samsung Electronics is the flagship affiliate of Samsung Group, the
    >nation's foremost conglomerate. It is the world's biggest maker of
    >memory chips and flat-panel displays.
    >
     
    GMAN, Feb 23, 2006
    #5
  6. Goro

    GMAN Guest

    In article <>, "Goro" <> wrote:
    >
    >Jeff Rife wrote:
    >> Goro () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    >> > They claimed that Samsung's DVD players allowed consumers to avoid
    >> > encryption features that prevent unauthorized duplication and demanded
    >> > a recall of all the problematic products, Bloomberg said.

    >>
    >> This is a *great* lawsuit for the consumer.
    >>
    >> The Samsung player merely allows HDCP to be turned off. The movie studios
    >> will have to prove that HDCP actually could "prevent unauthorized
    >> duplication" in order to win their case.
    >>
    >> If they can't, then it would no longer be even a hint of a DMCA violation
    >> to disable HDCP, because DMCA only protects systems that prevent
    >> duplication...not those that prevent "unauthorized viewing".

    >
    >of course, the great part is that they "demand a recall of the
    >problematic product"... which is a no-longer produced item....
    >erhmmm...
    >
    >-goro-
    >

    LMAO, like they can force a consumer to give up THEIR own property.
     
    GMAN, Feb 23, 2006
    #6
  7. Goro

    Impmon Guest

    On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:34:30 -0500, Jeff Rife <> wrote:

    >This is a *great* lawsuit for the consumer.
    >
    >The Samsung player merely allows HDCP to be turned off. The movie studios
    >will have to prove that HDCP actually could "prevent unauthorized
    >duplication" in order to win their case.
    >
    >If they can't, then it would no longer be even a hint of a DMCA violation
    >to disable HDCP, because DMCA only protects systems that prevent
    >duplication...not those that prevent "unauthorized viewing".


    Another thing: They'd have to prove that Samsung did intend for
    customer to hack their player or if it was supposed to remain a hidden
    feature for tech service and not be widely known hack.

    Anyway last I checked region hacks doesn't allow DVD to be copied at
    all, just allows DVD from other regions to be viewed.
    --
    When you hear the toilet flush, and hear the words "uh oh", it's already
    too late. - by anonymous Mother in Austin, TX
    Spam block in place, no emil reply is expected at all.
     
    Impmon, Feb 23, 2006
    #7
  8. Goro

    Jeff Rife Guest

    Goro () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > excuse me if i'm dense, but isn't it the case that they would need to
    > show that DISABLING HDCP allows unauthorized duplication?


    It's pretty much the same thing. If they prove that disabling HDCP
    allows unauthorized duplication, they also prove that not disabling
    it prevents unauthorized duplication.

    But, it might be enough for them to show that even though disabling HDCP
    doesn't automatically allow unauthorized duplication, it might make it
    more likely, thus HDCP would be thought to "prevent unauthorized
    duplication".

    So, the studios could win and not necessarily have anything definitive
    stated about HDCP and its effectiveness.

    If the studios *lose*, however, and fail to prove in any way that HDCP
    prevents unauthorized duplication, then disabling HDCP is thus *not*
    subject to DMCA rules about "disabling methods that effectively control
    copying".

    --
    Jeff Rife | "Hey, Brain, what do you wanna do tonight?"
    |
    | "The same thing we do every night, Pinky...
    | try to take over the world."
     
    Jeff Rife, Feb 23, 2006
    #8
  9. Goro

    Jeff Rife Guest

    Impmon () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > Anyway last I checked region hacks doesn't allow DVD to be copied at
    > all, just allows DVD from other regions to be viewed.


    Correct. That part is not subject to US copyright law in any way.

    --
    Jeff Rife |
    | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/ShermansLagoon/LoanedDVD.gif
     
    Jeff Rife, Feb 23, 2006
    #9
  10. Goro

    Logos Guest

    "Jeff Rife" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Impmon () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    >> Anyway last I checked region hacks doesn't allow DVD to be copied at
    >> all, just allows DVD from other regions to be viewed.

    >
    > Correct. That part is not subject to US copyright law in any way.
    >
    > --
    > Jeff Rife |
    > | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/ShermansLagoon/LoanedDVD.gif


    The MPAA has long held that the DMCA covers region coding as part of copy
    protection.
     
    Logos, Feb 23, 2006
    #10
  11. Goro

    Goro Guest

    Jeff Rife wrote:
    > Goro () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > > excuse me if i'm dense, but isn't it the case that they would need to
    > > show that DISABLING HDCP allows unauthorized duplication?

    >
    > It's pretty much the same thing. If they prove that disabling HDCP
    > allows unauthorized duplication, they also prove that not disabling
    > it prevents unauthorized duplication.
    >
    > But, it might be enough for them to show that even though disabling HDCP
    > doesn't automatically allow unauthorized duplication, it might make it
    > more likely, thus HDCP would be thought to "prevent unauthorized
    > duplication".


    Well, i think they are not equivalent statements as there are alternate
    methods of illegal duplication that don't include HDCP, however, if
    HDCP is diabled, there is then another method of duplication that
    exists.

    I agree that they SHOULD have to prove your statment (that HDCP
    prevents piracy) but with they lobbying power/money it's unlikely that
    they'll actually have to prove anything

    > So, the studios could win and not necessarily have anything definitive
    > stated about HDCP and its effectiveness.


    Except that they'll say more outlandish, hypcritical things. Like how
    $5.4B gets thrown into this issue. As if they've lost ANY money b/c of
    Samsung's player.

    > If the studios *lose*, however, and fail to prove in any way that HDCP
    > prevents unauthorized duplication, then disabling HDCP is thus *not*
    > subject to DMCA rules about "disabling methods that effectively control
    > copying".


    Someone should sue the MPAA...

    -goro-
     
    Goro, Feb 23, 2006
    #11
  12. Goro wrote:

    > Hurry, everyone buy SAMSUNG products!
    >
    > They are currently being sued by US movie studios for having a DVD
    > player that bypasses Region Coding and HDCP! Hey, ANY manufacturer
    > that bypasses DRM is worthy of MY support. I'll take a DOZEN! (i hear
    > it's not really that great a DVD player, htough). I wonder if it also
    > bypasses PUOPs...
    >

    In the UK, it's not in the least difficult to buy "multi-region" DVD
    players. They're the rule rather than the exception.
     
    Mike O'Sullivan, Feb 23, 2006
    #12
  13. Goro

    Jeff Rife Guest

    Logos () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > The MPAA has long held that the DMCA covers region coding as part of copy
    > protection.


    The MPAA says a lot of stuff, yet they have *never* filed a lawsuit
    over *only* a region coding disabling system. They're not stupid...they
    know they'd lose in a heartbeat, so instead of having a legal precedent
    set, they just hope that their threats will be enough to keep people
    in check.

    --
    Jeff Rife |
    | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/OverTheHedge/PizzaDelivery.gif
     
    Jeff Rife, Feb 23, 2006
    #13
  14. Goro

    Jeff Rife Guest

    Goro () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > > It's pretty much the same thing. If they prove that disabling HDCP
    > > allows unauthorized duplication, they also prove that not disabling
    > > it prevents unauthorized duplication.

    >
    > Well, i think they are not equivalent statements as there are alternate
    > methods of illegal duplication that don't include HDCP, however, if
    > HDCP is diabled, there is then another method of duplication that
    > exists.


    No, that's not important. Just because you can copy a book longhand
    doesn't mean that a Xerox copier can't also copy the book and both
    copies would still be infringing.

    The key is whether HDCP actually prevents copying or not. By turning
    it off, how many copies have been made? What extra hardware other than
    the DVD player is required to make a copy? The biggest thing will
    likely be the parade of people who admit to disabling HDCP on their
    player (which is permitted by copyright law, including the DMCA portion)
    just so they can *watch* their legally-purchased movies on display
    devices with DVI inputs but no HDCP, while the MPAA won't be able to
    find anybody who has copied a DVD this way.

    > > So, the studios could win and not necessarily have anything definitive
    > > stated about HDCP and its effectiveness.

    >
    > Except that they'll say more outlandish, hypcritical things. Like how
    > $5.4B gets thrown into this issue. As if they've lost ANY money b/c of
    > Samsung's player.


    Yeah, that's their MO. They try to get the other side to back down
    without having to prove anything, and then the public starts to think
    what they say has validity.

    I really think they have made a huge mistake this time, because I don't
    think Samsung will give up. I think Samsung will fight back as hard as
    they can, and try for a win and a "nuisance suit" verdict.

    In particular, in US copyright law, for "contributory infringement", you
    have to show that there was some infringement that that contributor (i.e.,
    Samsung in this case) caused to happen. In other words, without any
    successful use of this hack to copy a DVD, Samsung isn't liable.

    --
    Jeff Rife |
    | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/RhymesWithOrange/CatsAndDogs.jpg
     
    Jeff Rife, Feb 23, 2006
    #14
  15. Mike O'Sullivan <> wrote:

    >In the UK, it's not in the least difficult to buy "multi-region" DVD
    >players. They're the rule rather than the exception.


    In the UK, you don't have the MPAA, who own so much of Congress they can act
    like they make the laws.
     
    Kimba W. Lion, Feb 23, 2006
    #15
  16. Goro

    Oldus Fartus Guest

    Mike O'Sullivan wrote:
    > Goro wrote:
    >
    >> Hurry, everyone buy SAMSUNG products!
    >>
    >> They are currently being sued by US movie studios for having a DVD
    >> player that bypasses Region Coding and HDCP! Hey, ANY manufacturer
    >> that bypasses DRM is worthy of MY support. I'll take a DOZEN! (i hear
    >> it's not really that great a DVD player, htough). I wonder if it also
    >> bypasses PUOPs...
    >>

    > In the UK, it's not in the least difficult to buy "multi-region" DVD
    > players. They're the rule rather than the exception.


    Ditto in Australia. Our consumer watchdog, the ACCC, ruled that region
    coding was a restraint of trade, and as a result most players now either
    come region free out of the box, or include instructions to make them
    region free. They were very careful to separate region coding from
    copy protection, and in effect threw down the gauntlet for distributors
    to prove in the courts that bypassing region coding is something other
    than restraint of trade.

    --
    Cheers
    Oldus Fartus
     
    Oldus Fartus, Feb 24, 2006
    #16
  17. Goro

    Guest

    Jeff Rife wrote:
    > Goro () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > > They claimed that Samsung's DVD players allowed consumers to avoid
    > > encryption features that prevent unauthorized duplication and demanded
    > > a recall of all the problematic products, Bloomberg said.

    >
    > This is a *great* lawsuit for the consumer.
    >
    > The Samsung player merely allows HDCP to be turned off. The movie studios
    > will have to prove that HDCP actually could "prevent unauthorized
    > duplication" in order to win their case.
    >


    Unfortunately this landmark case shows how to go after big-business for
    a handout, the movie studios should take notice. I wonder if there'll
    be a movie-of-the-week ready in time for May Sweeps.

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LEAD_PAINT_LAWSUIT?SITE=TXBRY&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


    > If they can't, then it would no longer be even a hint of a DMCA violation
    > to disable HDCP, because DMCA only protects systems that prevent
    > duplication...not those that prevent "unauthorized viewing".
    >
    > --
    > Jeff Rife |
    > | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Dilbert/LostPassword.gif
     
    , Feb 24, 2006
    #17
  18. Goro

    Jeff Rife Guest

    () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > Unfortunately this landmark case shows how to go after big-business for
    > a handout, the movie studios should take notice. I wonder if there'll
    > be a movie-of-the-week ready in time for May Sweeps.
    >
    > http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LEAD_PAINT_LAWSUIT?SITE=TXBRY&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


    What in the world does a case about people actually being poisoned
    have to do with contributory infringement in copyright law?

    Just because they both took place in the past doesn't make them in any
    way similar.

    --
    Jeff Rife | "Ahhh, what an awful dream! Ones and zeroes
    | everywhere...and I thought I saw a two!"
    | -- Bender, "Futurama"
     
    Jeff Rife, Feb 24, 2006
    #18
  19. Goro

    Vinella Guest

    On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:03:42 -0800, Goro wrote:

    > Hurry, everyone buy SAMSUNG products!
    >
    > They are currently being sued by US movie studios for having a DVD player
    > that bypasses Region Coding and HDCP! Hey, ANY manufacturer that bypasses
    > DRM is worthy of MY support. I'll take a DOZEN! (i hear it's not really
    > that great a DVD player, htough). I wonder if it also bypasses PUOPs...
    >


    So? Region free and Crapovision free players are available in stores if
    you do your research. For instance, Walmart had huge stacks of Phillips
    DVD642's that has neither. There are others if you want to google for
    them. If you are close to the southern border, take a short trip to a
    store over there. Tons of normal players there.

    Vin
     
    Vinella, Feb 25, 2006
    #19
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