Unwritten law about APS kit lenses

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, Dec 30, 2010.

  1. RichA

    RichA Guest

    That they must all be 18-55mm. Remember the halcyon days when Nikon
    produced lenses like the 18-70mm? All kit lenses now seem to be
    carbon-copy 18-55mm with roughly the same speed characteristics. Is
    is possible that these lenses, despite coming in different brands are
    all being made by the same Chinese factory?
    RichA, Dec 30, 2010
    #1
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  2. RichA

    Bruce Guest

    RichA <> wrote:

    >That they must all be 18-55mm. Remember the halcyon days when Nikon
    >produced lenses like the 18-70mm? All kit lenses now seem to be
    >carbon-copy 18-55mm with roughly the same speed characteristics. Is
    >is possible that these lenses, despite coming in different brands are
    >all being made by the same Chinese factory?



    It has been the case for many years that consumer-grade standard zoom
    lenses have been made by a very small number of manufacturers in a
    very small number of factories. It dates back to the 1980s/90s when
    Tamron mass-produced the 35-80mm zoom lenses that were used by almost
    every major SLR camera manufacturer, largely supplanting 35-70mm
    designs that the camera brands had made themselves.

    There were many complaints about the poor optical quality of these new
    lenses. Eventually, Tamron responded with an improved design. Then,
    they introduced a 28-80mm design that was also a disappointment but
    was later improved after another bout of criticism.

    The point of all this was to offer a very cheap lens, something that
    mass production could make a lot cheaper than the lenses that camera
    manufacturers could produce themselves.

    And so to APS-C digital, where the majority of the 18-55mm 'kit'
    lenses are produced by ... Tamron.

    Did you know that Sony holds a substantial stake in Tamron? I believe
    Sony's stake in the company is 15%.
    Bruce, Dec 30, 2010
    #2
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  3. RichA

    Griffin Guest

    Oh bugger it! WAS Re: Unwritten law about APS kit lenses

    ..
    --------------------------
    The Internet will become the
    Sacred Sanctuary for Nutters,Idiots
    And Trolls

    (Michel Nostradamus, December 14, 1503 - July 2, 1566).
    --------------------------
    Griffin, Dec 30, 2010
    #3
  4. "RichA" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > That they must all be 18-55mm. Remember the halcyon days when Nikon
    > produced lenses like the 18-70mm? All kit lenses now seem to be
    > carbon-copy 18-55mm with roughly the same speed characteristics. Is
    > is possible that these lenses, despite coming in different brands are
    > all being made by the same Chinese factory?


    Funny thing, my APS-C sensro Canon 7D came with a 28-135mm kit lens, they
    also bundle a 18-135mm kit lens with it. Once again, you're spewing idiocy.
    Pete Stavrakoglou, Dec 30, 2010
    #4
  5. RichA

    peter Guest

    On 12/30/2010 8:20 AM, Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:
    > "RichA"<> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> That they must all be 18-55mm. Remember the halcyon days when Nikon
    >> produced lenses like the 18-70mm? All kit lenses now seem to be
    >> carbon-copy 18-55mm with roughly the same speed characteristics. Is
    >> is possible that these lenses, despite coming in different brands are
    >> all being made by the same Chinese factory?

    >
    > Funny thing, my APS-C sensro Canon 7D came with a 28-135mm kit lens, they
    > also bundle a 18-135mm kit lens with it. Once again, you're spewing idiocy.
    >
    >


    I originally planned not to respond. I suspect he gets his rocks off by
    making factually misleading statements.



    --
    Peter
    peter, Dec 30, 2010
    #5
  6. RichA

    Ofnuts Guest

    On 12/30/2010 10:45 AM, RichA wrote:
    > That they must all be 18-55mm. Remember the halcyon days when Nikon
    > produced lenses like the 18-70mm? All kit lenses now seem to be
    > carbon-copy 18-55mm with roughly the same speed characteristics. Is
    > is possible that these lenses, despite coming in different brands are
    > all being made by the same Chinese factory?


    There is one single unwritten law about photography, and it says that
    every day you'll find something new to complain about...

    --
    Bertrand
    Ofnuts, Dec 30, 2010
    #6
  7. RichA

    RichA Guest

    On Dec 30, 6:00 am, Bruce <> wrote:
    > RichA <> wrote:
    > >That they must all be 18-55mm.  Remember the halcyon days when Nikon
    > >produced lenses like the 18-70mm?  All kit lenses now seem to be
    > >carbon-copy 18-55mm with roughly the same speed characteristics.  Is
    > >is possible that these lenses, despite coming in different brands are
    > >all being made by the same Chinese factory?

    >
    > It has been the case for many years that consumer-grade standard zoom
    > lenses have been made by a very small number of manufacturers in a
    > very small number of factories.  It dates back to the 1980s/90s when
    > Tamron mass-produced the 35-80mm zoom lenses that were used by almost
    > every major SLR camera manufacturer, largely supplanting 35-70mm
    > designs that the camera brands had made themselves.  
    >
    > There were many complaints about the poor optical quality of these new
    > lenses.  Eventually, Tamron responded with an improved design.  Then,
    > they introduced a 28-80mm design that was also a disappointment but
    > was later improved after another bout of criticism.
    >
    > The point of all this was to offer a very cheap lens, something that
    > mass production could make a lot cheaper than the lenses that camera
    > manufacturers could produce themselves.
    >
    > And so to APS-C digital, where the majority of the 18-55mm 'kit'
    > lenses are produced by ... Tamron.


    Figures.

    > Did you know that Sony holds a substantial stake in Tamron?  I believe
    > Sony's stake in the company is 15%.


    No, that is interesting. Someone should buy part of Sigma, and
    improve their brand. I see their recent (overpriced) 70-200mm f2.8 is
    a lame dog as predicted.
    RichA, Dec 30, 2010
    #7
  8. RichA

    RichA Guest

    On Dec 30, 8:20 am, "Pete Stavrakoglou" <> wrote:
    > "RichA" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    > > That they must all be 18-55mm.  Remember the halcyon days when Nikon
    > > produced lenses like the 18-70mm?  All kit lenses now seem to be
    > > carbon-copy 18-55mm with roughly the same speed characteristics.  Is
    > > is possible that these lenses, despite coming in different brands are
    > > all being made by the same Chinese factory?

    >
    > Funny thing, my APS-C sensro Canon 7D came with a 28-135mm kit lens, they
    > also bundle a 18-135mm kit lens with it.  Once again, you're spewing idiocy.


    That isn't a kit lens. It's a cheap accessory lens.
    RichA, Dec 30, 2010
    #8
  9. RichA

    RichA Guest

    On Dec 30, 11:07 am, peter <> wrote:
    > On 12/30/2010 8:20 AM, Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:
    >
    > > "RichA"<>  wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> That they must all be 18-55mm.  Remember the halcyon days when Nikon
    > >> produced lenses like the 18-70mm?  All kit lenses now seem to be
    > >> carbon-copy 18-55mm with roughly the same speed characteristics.  Is
    > >> is possible that these lenses, despite coming in different brands are
    > >> all being made by the same Chinese factory?

    >
    > > Funny thing, my APS-C sensro Canon 7D came with a 28-135mm kit lens, they
    > > also bundle a 18-135mm kit lens with it.  Once again, you're spewing idiocy.

    >
    > I originally planned not to respond. I suspect he gets his rocks off by
    > making factually misleading statements.
    >
    > --
    > Peter


    You sure did add substance, as usual.
    RichA, Dec 30, 2010
    #9
  10. RichA

    peter Guest

    On 12/30/2010 4:59 PM, RichA wrote:
    > On Dec 30, 11:07 am, peter<> wrote:
    >> On 12/30/2010 8:20 AM, Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:
    >>
    >>> "RichA"<> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> That they must all be 18-55mm. Remember the halcyon days when Nikon
    >>>> produced lenses like the 18-70mm? All kit lenses now seem to be
    >>>> carbon-copy 18-55mm with roughly the same speed characteristics. Is
    >>>> is possible that these lenses, despite coming in different brands are
    >>>> all being made by the same Chinese factory?

    >>
    >>> Funny thing, my APS-C sensro Canon 7D came with a 28-135mm kit lens, they
    >>> also bundle a 18-135mm kit lens with it. Once again, you're spewing idiocy.

    >>
    >> I originally planned not to respond. I suspect he gets his rocks off by
    >> making factually misleading statements.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Peter

    >
    > You sure did add substance, as usual.



    Try using accurate facts, not half truths.
    Tell us how to add substance to quicksand.



    --
    Peter
    peter, Dec 31, 2010
    #10
  11. RichA

    Bruce Guest

    RichA <> wrote:
    >
    >That they must all be 18-55mm. Remember the halcyon days when Nikon
    >produced lenses like the 18-70mm?



    The Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED, to give it its
    full title, garnered a couple of very good reviews. Unfortunately,
    that lens was afflicted by some serious sample variation.

    If you got a good sample, it was very, very good. But if you weren't
    so lucky, you got a lemon. Most owners never tested their lenses so
    they relied on the very good reviews to define the quality of what
    they had bought - even if theirs was a lemon.
    Bruce, Dec 31, 2010
    #11
  12. RichA

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 11:00:33 +0000, Bruce <> wrote:
    : And so to APS-C digital, where the majority of the 18-55mm 'kit'
    : lenses are produced by ... Tamron.
    :
    : Did you know that Sony holds a substantial stake in Tamron? I believe
    : Sony's stake in the company is 15%.

    Tamron is probably more profitable than Sony's camera operation.

    Bob
    Robert Coe, Dec 31, 2010
    #12
  13. RichA

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 13:58:12 -0800 (PST), RichA <> wrote:
    : On Dec 30, 6:00 am, Bruce <> wrote:
    : > RichA <> wrote:
    : > >That they must all be 18-55mm.  Remember the halcyon days when Nikon
    : > >produced lenses like the 18-70mm?  All kit lenses now seem to be
    : > >carbon-copy 18-55mm with roughly the same speed characteristics.  Is
    : > >is possible that these lenses, despite coming in different brands are
    : > >all being made by the same Chinese factory?
    : >
    : > It has been the case for many years that consumer-grade standard zoom
    : > lenses have been made by a very small number of manufacturers in a
    : > very small number of factories.  It dates back to the 1980s/90s when
    : > Tamron mass-produced the 35-80mm zoom lenses that were used by almost
    : > every major SLR camera manufacturer, largely supplanting 35-70mm
    : > designs that the camera brands had made themselves.  
    : >
    : > There were many complaints about the poor optical quality of these new
    : > lenses.  Eventually, Tamron responded with an improved design.  Then,
    : > they introduced a 28-80mm design that was also a disappointment but
    : > was later improved after another bout of criticism.
    : >
    : > The point of all this was to offer a very cheap lens, something that
    : > mass production could make a lot cheaper than the lenses that camera
    : > manufacturers could produce themselves.
    : >
    : > And so to APS-C digital, where the majority of the 18-55mm 'kit'
    : > lenses are produced by ... Tamron.
    :
    : Figures.
    :
    : > Did you know that Sony holds a substantial stake in Tamron?  I believe
    : > Sony's stake in the company is 15%.
    :
    : No, that is interesting. Someone should buy part of Sigma, and
    : improve their brand. I see their recent (overpriced) 70-200mm f2.8 is
    : a lame dog as predicted.

    But their recent 17-50mm f/2.8 apparently isn't, if you believe the customer
    reviews.

    Bob
    Robert Coe, Dec 31, 2010
    #13
  14. RichA

    Bruce Guest

    Robert Coe <> wrote:
    >On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 11:00:33 +0000, Bruce <> wrote:
    >: And so to APS-C digital, where the majority of the 18-55mm 'kit'
    >: lenses are produced by ... Tamron.
    >:
    >: Did you know that Sony holds a substantial stake in Tamron? I believe
    >: Sony's stake in the company is 15%.
    >
    >Tamron is probably more profitable than Sony's camera operation.



    That wouldn't be difficult, as Sony has lost huge amounts of money on
    Alpha products since buying Konica Minolta's (D)SLR range.

    But NEX is probably turning that around. We sold a lot of NEX cameras
    before Christmas and sales of NEX cameras, lenses and accessories in
    the post-Christmas sales have been very buoyant. Sony has sensibly
    reduced the prices across the range and they now make sensible and
    quite attractive buys. I hope there will be some better lenses soon,
    possibly Zeiss branded?

    Alpha is still a problem, though. The A33 doesn't sell at all and the
    A55 only sells because its price has been slashed; there are many
    customer complaints about chronic overheating in video mode.

    All the Alpha DSLRs are extremely slow sellers, and Alpha lens and
    accessory sales are glacially slow. Since the lenses and accessories
    make most money for camera stores, no-one is making any profits from
    Alpha, and the new Alpha models due in 2011 are unlikely to change
    anything.

    I expect Alpha to follow the Olympus E Series Four Thirds DSLRs and
    die a slow and lingering death.
    Bruce, Dec 31, 2010
    #14
  15. "RichA" wrote:

    > Remember the halcyon days when Nikon produced lenses
    > like the 18-70mm?


    1. I don't know if Nikon is still _producing_ the 18-70mm or not,
    but it's still listed as a current product.
    2. My APS kit lens is an IX-Nikkor 30-60mm f/4-5.6.

    --
    Mike Benveniste -- (Clarification Required)
    Its name is Public opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles
    everything. Some think it is the voice of God. -- Mark Twain
    Michael Benveniste, Dec 31, 2010
    #15
  16. RichA

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 15:14:23 +0000, Bruce <> wrote:
    : Robert Coe <> wrote:
    : >On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 11:00:33 +0000, Bruce <> wrote:
    : >: And so to APS-C digital, where the majority of the 18-55mm 'kit'
    : >: lenses are produced by ... Tamron.
    : >:
    : >: Did you know that Sony holds a substantial stake in Tamron? I believe
    : >: Sony's stake in the company is 15%.
    : >
    : >Tamron is probably more profitable than Sony's camera operation.
    :
    :
    : That wouldn't be difficult, as Sony has lost huge amounts of money on
    : Alpha products since buying Konica Minolta's (D)SLR range.
    :
    : But NEX is probably turning that around. We sold a lot of NEX cameras
    : before Christmas and sales of NEX cameras, lenses and accessories in
    : the post-Christmas sales have been very buoyant. Sony has sensibly
    : reduced the prices across the range and they now make sensible and
    : quite attractive buys. I hope there will be some better lenses soon,
    : possibly Zeiss branded?

    Can you tell yet where those NEX sales are coming from? I.e., are they at the
    expense of low-end DSLRs or high-end P&Sses? Or both? That question may be
    giving Canon execs, for example, sleepless nights, because there's some
    evidence that they intend to prune both of those lines in favor of their
    mirrorless offering.

    Bob
    Robert Coe, Dec 31, 2010
    #16
  17. RichA

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 13:58:45 -0800 (PST), RichA <> wrote:
    : On Dec 30, 8:20 am, "Pete Stavrakoglou" <> wrote:
    : > "RichA" <> wrote in message
    : >
    : > news:...
    : >
    : > > That they must all be 18-55mm.  Remember the halcyon days when Nikon
    : > > produced lenses like the 18-70mm?  All kit lenses now seem to be
    : > > carbon-copy 18-55mm with roughly the same speed characteristics.  Is
    : > > is possible that these lenses, despite coming in different brands are
    : > > all being made by the same Chinese factory?
    : >
    : > Funny thing, my APS-C sensro Canon 7D came with a 28-135mm kit lens,
    : > they also bundle a 18-135mm kit lens with it.  Once again, you're
    : > spewing idiocy.
    :
    : That isn't a kit lens. It's a cheap accessory lens.

    Rich's forthcoming "Glossary of Common Photographic Terms" could be a
    hilarious read.

    Bob
    Robert Coe, Dec 31, 2010
    #17
  18. "Savageduck" wrote:

    > The 18-70mm was the kit lens on my D70, and when I have used it on my
    > D300s It seems to produce sharper results than my 18-200mm.


    I last used my 18-70mm on December 26th, but these days it tends
    to "live" on my IR converted D70.

    I consider the 18-70mm f/3.5~4.5 to be one of the most important
    Nikkor lens models ever made. Nor do I think that’s a “top the
    troll†claim. Let’s set the wayback machine to February 2004 for
    a moment.

    In 2004, Nikon is in serious trouble. Their dSLR line consists of the
    aging D1 models, the D100, and the just announced D2h. Canon has just
    announced their 1D Mark II, which at least on the spec sheet blows
    the D2h out of the water. Canon is also coming off of a strong
    Christmas season with their sub-1K digital rebel.

    Nikon’s betting a lot on the D70. If it’s not a success, Nikon may be
    doomed to fighting it out with Pentax and Minolta as an also ran. But
    they’ve already missed the Christmas season, and the D70 itself is a
    "me too" camera that doesn’t offer a whole lot more than the dReb.

    But the lens, ah, the lens. To put it politely, Canon’s original
    18-55mm was built to a price point and feels it. The 18-70mm is a much
    more solid piece of kit and handily outperforms the Canon. In fact,
    it’s so good that Nikon manages to gain market share with a 6-megapixel
    D70 even after Canon introduces an 8-megapixel dReb at about the same
    price point.

    Nikon sold about 2.25 million copies of the 18-70mm, and my guess is
    that at least 95% of them were sold in a dSLR kit. That represents
    a huge influx of new Nikon customers, and gave Nikon the financial
    base to finally address at least some of their aged professional
    products.

    Had Nikon instead produced another dog like my 30-60mm f/4~5.6 or
    even a mediocrity like the 28-80mm f/3.5~5.6G I’m convinced that
    Canon would have squashed them like a grape.

    --
    Mike Benveniste -- (Clarification Required)
    Its name is Public opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles
    everything. Some think it is the voice of God. -- Mark Twain
    Michael Benveniste, Dec 31, 2010
    #18
  19. RichA

    Bruce Guest

    Robert Coe <> wrote:
    >On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 15:14:23 +0000, Bruce <> wrote:
    >: Robert Coe <> wrote:
    >: >On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 11:00:33 +0000, Bruce <> wrote:
    >: >: And so to APS-C digital, where the majority of the 18-55mm 'kit'
    >: >: lenses are produced by ... Tamron.
    >: >:
    >: >: Did you know that Sony holds a substantial stake in Tamron? I believe
    >: >: Sony's stake in the company is 15%.
    >: >
    >: >Tamron is probably more profitable than Sony's camera operation.
    >:
    >:
    >: That wouldn't be difficult, as Sony has lost huge amounts of money on
    >: Alpha products since buying Konica Minolta's (D)SLR range.
    >:
    >: But NEX is probably turning that around. We sold a lot of NEX cameras
    >: before Christmas and sales of NEX cameras, lenses and accessories in
    >: the post-Christmas sales have been very buoyant. Sony has sensibly
    >: reduced the prices across the range and they now make sensible and
    >: quite attractive buys. I hope there will be some better lenses soon,
    >: possibly Zeiss branded?
    >
    >Can you tell yet where those NEX sales are coming from? I.e., are they at the
    >expense of low-end DSLRs or high-end P&Sses? Or both?



    I cannot be certain on the basis of a small sample. We aren't in the
    same league as Jessops or Best Buy. But we certainly lost sales of
    entry-level Sony DSLRs to NEX. No-one was interested in any of the
    Sony Alpha models below the A580 or A55. I was relieved because I had
    not ordered any for the Christmas period.

    It was our policy to try to get potential buyers of superzooms to move
    up to mirrorless system cameras. That is because buyers of superzooms
    make a single purchase, whereas buyers of mirrorless cameras will most
    likely come back to buy lenses and other accessories that are more
    profitable than selling just a camera.

    In mirrorless, Panasonic sold very well. Olympus sales were just OK.
    The new E-PL2 will improve Olympus's position in 2011. Samsung sales
    grew strongly from a low base, mainly thanks to the very pretty NX100
    which sells equally to men and women.

    But NEX was the success story, and we ran out of NX3 bodies. We got
    another delivery on Wednesday and sold most of them by this evening.
    Sony has at last recognised that NEX lens prices were too high and we
    have been able to give special offers on two-lens kits with the
    18-55mm and 20mm pancake that effectively make the latter a very cheap
    add-on to a one-lens kit.


    >That question may be
    >giving Canon execs, for example, sleepless nights, because there's some
    >evidence that they intend to prune both of those lines in favor of their
    >mirrorless offering.



    Both Canon and Nikon need to be prepared to see sales of entry-level
    DSLRs drop significantly.

    High end P&S cameras such as the Nikon P7000, Canon G12 and Panasonic
    LX5 still appeal as a second camera for owners of prosumer DSLRs.
    These people are less likely to choose a mirrorless system for their
    second camera. The position of the superzoom is still assured as no
    mirrorless system offers the huge zoom ratios that superzooms offer as
    standard. So the sales of mirrorless system cameras are mainly to
    people trading up from mid-range P&S, and they are at the expense of
    the entry-level DSLRs that P&S users previously traded up to.
    Bruce, Dec 31, 2010
    #19
  20. RichA

    peter Guest

    On 12/31/2010 11:36 AM, Savageduck wrote:
    > On 2010-12-31 08:03:53 -0800, "Michael Benveniste" <>
    > said:
    >
    >> "RichA" wrote:
    >>
    >>> Remember the halcyon days when Nikon produced lenses like the 18-70mm?

    >>
    >> 1. I don't know if Nikon is still _producing_ the 18-70mm or not,
    >> but it's still listed as a current product.
    >> 2. My APS kit lens is an IX-Nikkor 30-60mm f/4-5.6.

    >
    > The 18-70mm was the kit lens on my D70, and when I have used it on my
    > D300s It seems to produce sharper results than my 18-200mm. That is
    > probably due to the more extreme zoom range of the 18-200mm. That said,
    > the 18-200mm VRII remains my walkaround lens, with the Tokina 11-16mm
    > f/2.8 as my wide option.
    >


    I had Nikon fix the softness issue and creep on my 18-200. So far, while
    not tack sharp, it is so improved that I can use it for a walk around lens.


    --
    Peter
    peter, Dec 31, 2010
    #20
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