Unemployeed

Discussion in 'MCSD' started by tommylee, Aug 13, 2003.

  1. tommylee

    tommylee Guest

    I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things can
    be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
    programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
    cases like that ?

    --
    Posted via http://dbforums.com
    tommylee, Aug 13, 2003
    #1
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  2. tommylee

    Kline Sphere Guest

    >I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things can
    >be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
    >programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
    >cases like that ?


    This is nothing like as bad as it was in the early 90's when just
    about all business sectors were affected.

    In 1991 we had over 1,000 applications for one graduate position,
    which was only advertised within the state university system.

    After a company 'down sized', a friend of mine was out of work for 18
    months for mid 1990. I remember him telling me he applied for one
    position in New York (hundreds of miles from where he lived). They
    replied back saying they had over 4,000 applications. He was a top
    notch software engineer who made the mistake of getting into
    management five years before.

    BTW, I've not seen a 'programmer' role being advertised for more than
    ten years. If all you can do is 'program' then I agree things will be
    tough for you.

    Good luck.
    Kline Sphere, Aug 13, 2003
    #2
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  3. tommylee

    emg Guest

    Yes, I know of good people that were unemployed for a year or more. We
    recently hired one. I'm working with this guy now and he's good. And no,
    he's not just a "coder". He does the full life-cycle from analysis to
    implementation.

    I honestly don't know what to tell you. I'd say that here in Detroit things
    are as bad as they've ever been. And I've been in the field since 1979.

    First, don't take it personally. It's not just you. Second, please don't
    give up. I realize it's easy to say that but once you give up, it's certain
    you won't get a job. Third, don't restrict yourself to just "programmer"
    jobs. Look at any job that's related to your past experience and make your
    best pitch to get hired. At this point, I think it's better to be working in
    a non-developer job than waiting for IT to recover. If things do get better
    you can adjust accordingly.

    Best of Luck!



    "tommylee" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things can
    > be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
    > programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
    > cases like that ?
    >
    > --
    > Posted via http://dbforums.com
    emg, Aug 13, 2003
    #3
  4. tommylee

    JJG Guest

    Are you just looking 'local' jobs?
    I have been actively job hunting (10-12 months) in LA,
    NY Atlanta, Texas and maybe Phoenix. . haven't received
    any offer yet, not even a bad one, though, had 8-10
    interviews for very good companies and at least in half of
    those I was very close to get an offer.
    Luckily for me, I currently have a good job. My hat to
    you, this is a very difficult, frustrating, hopeless task
    if you are unemployed. My advice to you is: if can't
    find a job where you live, it's time for you to broaden
    your search to other cities. Besides those jobs been
    outsourced outside our borders, some jobs are moving or
    centralizing-consolidating to headquarters, most of them
    in metro cities. I know it's hard to relocate at your own
    expense but the competition is cut-throat out there. Tell
    the employers that you are willing to pay your own
    relocation. The best of luck to you, there's still hope,
    just don't give up.
    Jaime



    >-----Original Message-----
    >
    >I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't

    believe things can
    >be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and

    experience
    >programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen

    or know any
    >cases like that ?
    >
    >--
    >Posted via http://dbforums.com
    >.
    >
    JJG, Aug 13, 2003
    #4
  5. tommylee

    John S Guest

    Considered a change of career to something more suitable?

    "tommylee" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things can
    > be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
    > programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
    > cases like that ?
    >
    > --
    > Posted via http://dbforums.com
    John S, Aug 14, 2003
    #5
  6. tommylee

    JJG Guest

    May I ask what city of Texas?
    I'd receive some jobs opportunities in Phoenix. Not that
    far from Texas, but you'll certainly need to relocate.
    Also, Sharepoint and CMS (Content...) are pretty hot now,
    try to learn those technologies,. They are not that
    difficult to learn if you're already an ASP, ASP.NET guy.
    You can even ask a company that may need those solutions
    and work for free so you can put it on your resume as
    professional experience. Sound abit outrageous and hard on
    your ego but it beat been at home.
    Bye

    >-----Original Message-----
    >
    >Thanks for all the great advices.
    >I live in Texas, and the IT job market in the city that I

    live in is
    >dead, totally dead. I can't event get an interview in the

    past 4
    >months. Going to an interview in another city on my own

    expense is also
    >a problem.
    >
    >--
    >Posted via http://dbforums.com
    >.
    >
    JJG, Aug 14, 2003
    #6
  7. tommylee

    tommylee Guest

    I live in Houston, Texas. Where a lot of big companies just put a bunch
    of super-programmers on the street (you probably have heard about those
    news). I don't know if you noticed this, but most of the ads says
    "prefer LOCAL candidates".

    --
    Posted via http://dbforums.com
    tommylee, Aug 14, 2003
    #7
  8. tommylee

    Kline Sphere Guest

    I expect there will be a few more unemployed after the latest round of
    network breaches due to the Lovsan virus. Anyone from the Federal
    Reserve Bank of Atlanta out there?
    Kline Sphere, Aug 14, 2003
    #8
  9. tommylee

    JJG Guest

    <<I don't know if you noticed this, but most of the ads
    says "prefer LOCAL candidates".>>

    Yeap, of course I noticed , that's why to somewhat level
    the playing field I offer to relocate @ my expense.
    But I 'm very aware that is not as easy for other as for
    me, (wife dont work & want to move, no kids,live in a
    small apt...)



    >-----Original Message-----
    >
    >I live in Houston, Texas. Where a lot of big companies

    just put a bunch
    >of super-programmers on the street (you probably have

    heard about those
    >news). I don't know if you noticed this, but most of the

    ads says
    >"prefer LOCAL candidates".
    >
    >--
    >Posted via http://dbforums.com
    >.
    >
    JJG, Aug 15, 2003
    #9
  10. tommylee

    MarkSJ Guest

    "msnews.microsoft.com" <> wrote in message
    news:%23Ls$...
    > If this sounds condescending at all, I apologize, as that is not the

    intent.
    > In every field, there is always a core group that have skills above

    everyone
    > else who remain employed. At the company I work for, I enjoy a salary

    above
    > most of the people in IT, and everyone in my group. Why? Skills are

    higher.
    > Also, when you truly know more, you have more confidence in your ability.
    > You also tend to hold jobs when others get layed off (friendly word for
    > fired, just like downsizing is a friendly word for out of work).
    >


    I certainly agree with you, Gregory, about staying ahead of the curve. In
    our line of work, possibly more than any other, it is the only way to
    guarantee a future.

    However, I have to tell the flipside, as it just happened to me.
    I just got laid off from a company I worked at for 2.5 years. I was
    initially hired because of my higher skill level, and for the past 2.25
    years was the only Lead Software Engineer the company had, for a team of 12
    developers. I was the highest-paid developer, but also had the highest
    skill level (and ambition). I was constantly pushing the other developers
    to learn more, to push their development to higher standards. I pushed the
    company to bring newer technology in, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.
    Several months ago, the company hired some new developers on visa from
    India. These were junior level developers at best, had no concept of what a
    deadline was, and took a great deal of my time and the time of other
    developers to train. These new developers were also paid at a much lower
    scale than the existing developers. I was extremely surprised when two of
    these junior developers from India were moved up to Lead positions about 4
    months ago; it made no sense to me or to the other developers.
    Well, surprise, surprise, half the development team (including me) were laid
    off one morning, but none of the new-hires were. The company used the
    excuse that it was downsizing the development team, and our positions had
    been eliminated. Somehow the positions of the more experienced, higher paid
    developers were eliminated, but the less experienced, less tenured, lower
    paid ones in the same positions were kept. We had to sign paperwork stating
    that we wouldn't sue the company if we wanted to get any type of termination
    package.

    I realize that the company I worked for is not typical, but I do believe
    there are a surprising number of companies that use despicable and unethical
    tactics like that for the shortsighted monetary gain.

    To me it is totally disgusting that companies will do things like that. It
    really makes me wish I was in a different profession. I am still here,
    working hard to keep on the cutting edge, studying every single day, 7 days
    per week, to learn the "latest & greatest" technology. Sometimes I wonder
    what for? There is practically no job satisfaction unless you really get in
    with a good company. Companies will lie in interviews much more than the
    interviewees are likely to lie, so it is almost impossible to know in an
    interview what it will be like to work for.

    </rant>
    Mark.
    MCSD, MCAD, MCP+I
    MarkSJ, Aug 20, 2003
    #10
  11. tommylee

    Grok Guest

    Oh, as far as that agreement not to sue them in order to get
    severance, that is obvious coercion and they may get criminal charges
    against them for that too. I wouldn't sweat that agreement one bit.

    Damn, I wish I was your attorney. That case is too easy.


    On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:53:35 -0600, "MarkSJ"
    <> wrote:

    >"msnews.microsoft.com" <> wrote in message
    >news:%23Ls$...
    >> If this sounds condescending at all, I apologize, as that is not the

    >intent.
    >> In every field, there is always a core group that have skills above

    >everyone
    >> else who remain employed. At the company I work for, I enjoy a salary

    >above
    >> most of the people in IT, and everyone in my group. Why? Skills are

    >higher.
    >> Also, when you truly know more, you have more confidence in your ability.
    >> You also tend to hold jobs when others get layed off (friendly word for
    >> fired, just like downsizing is a friendly word for out of work).
    >>

    >
    >I certainly agree with you, Gregory, about staying ahead of the curve. In
    >our line of work, possibly more than any other, it is the only way to
    >guarantee a future.
    >
    >However, I have to tell the flipside, as it just happened to me.
    >I just got laid off from a company I worked at for 2.5 years. I was
    >initially hired because of my higher skill level, and for the past 2.25
    >years was the only Lead Software Engineer the company had, for a team of 12
    >developers. I was the highest-paid developer, but also had the highest
    >skill level (and ambition). I was constantly pushing the other developers
    >to learn more, to push their development to higher standards. I pushed the
    >company to bring newer technology in, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.
    >Several months ago, the company hired some new developers on visa from
    >India. These were junior level developers at best, had no concept of what a
    >deadline was, and took a great deal of my time and the time of other
    >developers to train. These new developers were also paid at a much lower
    >scale than the existing developers. I was extremely surprised when two of
    >these junior developers from India were moved up to Lead positions about 4
    >months ago; it made no sense to me or to the other developers.
    >Well, surprise, surprise, half the development team (including me) were laid
    >off one morning, but none of the new-hires were. The company used the
    >excuse that it was downsizing the development team, and our positions had
    >been eliminated. Somehow the positions of the more experienced, higher paid
    >developers were eliminated, but the less experienced, less tenured, lower
    >paid ones in the same positions were kept. We had to sign paperwork stating
    >that we wouldn't sue the company if we wanted to get any type of termination
    >package.
    >
    >I realize that the company I worked for is not typical, but I do believe
    >there are a surprising number of companies that use despicable and unethical
    >tactics like that for the shortsighted monetary gain.
    >
    >To me it is totally disgusting that companies will do things like that. It
    >really makes me wish I was in a different profession. I am still here,
    >working hard to keep on the cutting edge, studying every single day, 7 days
    >per week, to learn the "latest & greatest" technology. Sometimes I wonder
    >what for? There is practically no job satisfaction unless you really get in
    >with a good company. Companies will lie in interviews much more than the
    >interviewees are likely to lie, so it is almost impossible to know in an
    >interview what it will be like to work for.
    >
    ></rant>
    >Mark.
    >MCSD, MCAD, MCP+I
    >
    Grok, Aug 20, 2003
    #11
  12. tommylee

    h1bguy Guest

    Yeah I am on H1B and I completely agree with you about suing the ass off
    of the company.



    But do rtemember not all H!B are like that . I will speak for a few
    people I know and myself, we hate when something like this happens as
    much as you guys, we see guys coming here with only qualification being
    they are cheap labour.



    They dont know nothing about software life cycle, vaguely seem to
    know few design patterns but are quite effiecient in cutting and
    pasting the code.



    So there are two things you should do:



    1. Never be too secure and over confident about your job/importance in
    the company.



    2. Being good has nothing to do with being able to hold your job, as
    long the product works, managing monkeys think saving some dollars
    here and there justifies everything.



    So do your best to report an incident like this, and more so when you
    feel you can prove it as well.



    But ultimately it boils down to the managers who will and are more often
    then not not on H1B and not Indians either, I see a lot of H1B bashing
    going on every where that we are all evil :) and "that your job blongs
    to us" is our motto but I am pretty sure banning the visa won't solve a
    thing, it would ultimately make most of the development being sent
    offshores as well.



    Belive it or not developers are paid a lot of money, more then most of
    other professions , dot com boon even inflated that so now is the time
    to realize that lower salary is a greatoption then no salary at all.



    Best of all to all you citizens and Green cards holders in finding your
    job from a humble H1B guy.





    ps : I feel right now it would be much much better to start your own
    company which provides services, like maybe in wireless or data
    management , its not very expensive to set one and then you can
    while waiting for the job do some products for your company and
    add them to your resume as well.



    What I mean is getting a website and maybe an Incorporated deal too?



    coders for rent is good place for some part time job as well..


    --
    Posted via http://dbforums.com
    h1bguy, Sep 7, 2003
    #12
  13. tommylee

    123qwe Guest

    Originally posted by tommylee

    > I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things
    > can be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
    > programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
    > cases like that ?




    Hello everybody,



    I noticed that on many forums IT people form US complain about weak
    economy and job market. I have few observations:



    1. Your unemplyment rate is only 6,9 % (in my country it is 20%)

    2. When I search Monster.com or other boards there are hunderds of new
    positions each day.



    Additionally many people talk about "moving to IT field" or "moving out
    form IT field". How is it posible? I am 24 years old, but I am
    certainly sure that it takes years to become real IT Pro. I have been
    using computers since 1990, I have 6 years of commerical experience,
    have studied 5 years to achieve my Computer Science Degree on
    University, have spent months learning, working, preparing to MS exams
    etc. and I am still sure that there is much more to learn for me. And
    then I read some of those folks talking about moving to IT (in let say
    6 months). Question: What kind of specialists are they? In my opinion
    they are not at all.



    You complain about your salaries? Hey I earn about 15 000 $ annually.
    (and prices in my country are high, examples: 1 gallon of petrol ~ 3,6
    $, DSL per month 50 $, bread 0,5 $, home (170 square meteres, average
    standard, according to your standards it would be slums:)))) 200 000 $



    I have a friend of my who was working as h1b guy in Iowa for about a
    year during 2000. He said that many people were moving to IT without any
    qualifications, they were just taking some 2 weeks courses and thought
    that they are Software Engineers. All this just to make some money
    during prosperity. Probably they have been now reduced due to recession,
    but the point is they should never be hired.

    If somebody can develop some VB Forms using MS RAD tools(because he took
    some funny 2 weeks long course) it is not enough to be called Software
    Engineer. You have to now math, algorithms like Floyds, Dijkstra,

    and real huge amount of theoretical knowledge.You have to know something
    from DB theory (I mean Math basis?). If you thing you are good because
    you can develop asp.net page you are wrong. And what about business
    reltions?Are you interested how IT fits to business?



    Hey, believe me, comparing to eastern Europe where I am living, you all
    guys live in heaven. Despite 20% unemplyment rate in my country every
    high-tech well skilled person have a job. I just can not understand and
    believe that in US you can not find a job (only 6,9% UR!!). You are
    saying you have been laid-off? So what? It is not Japan ten years ago
    where You were hired till death.



    I bet if you can not find a job it is something wrong with you. Maybe
    you are not such good as you thing or maybe there is some other reason.
    Or maybe you are not searching for it hard enough.



    When I was changing job, I have sent about 1500 offers in two weeks. Now
    I am preparing to study MBA on University and to take some Project
    Management courses along with completing MCSD.NET. Now it is time for
    people who are self confident, extremely well educated (IT Pros with
    Financial and Business background) and who are "fighters".



    If somebody talk about end of IT this remainds me some story about
    scientists from the begining of XX century who were proclaiming that it
    is end of science because everything has been already invented:)))

    And really I think there is a bright future for real IT People. This is
    industry will be witnessing unbelieveable growth (and you have a good
    government and president who cut taxes, I wish we would have such
    government)



    I would like to apologise if I have offended someone.



    Best Regards,



    Simon



    BS CS

    MCP, MCAD



    from Poland


    --
    Posted via http://dbforums.com
    123qwe, Sep 7, 2003
    #13
  14. Well stated.
    In addition, one might also consider being a domain specialist on top of
    being an expert software engineer to further increase one's value.
    Glenn

    "123qwe" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Originally posted by tommylee
    >
    > > I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things
    > > can be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
    > > programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
    > > cases like that ?

    >
    >
    >
    > Hello everybody,
    >
    >
    >
    > I noticed that on many forums IT people form US complain about weak
    > economy and job market. I have few observations:
    >
    >
    >
    > 1. Your unemplyment rate is only 6,9 % (in my country it is 20%)
    >
    > 2. When I search Monster.com or other boards there are hunderds of new
    > positions each day.
    >
    >
    >
    > Additionally many people talk about "moving to IT field" or "moving out
    > form IT field". How is it posible? I am 24 years old, but I am
    > certainly sure that it takes years to become real IT Pro. I have been
    > using computers since 1990, I have 6 years of commerical experience,
    > have studied 5 years to achieve my Computer Science Degree on
    > University, have spent months learning, working, preparing to MS exams
    > etc. and I am still sure that there is much more to learn for me. And
    > then I read some of those folks talking about moving to IT (in let say
    > 6 months). Question: What kind of specialists are they? In my opinion
    > they are not at all.
    >
    >
    >
    > You complain about your salaries? Hey I earn about 15 000 $ annually.
    > (and prices in my country are high, examples: 1 gallon of petrol ~ 3,6
    > $, DSL per month 50 $, bread 0,5 $, home (170 square meteres, average
    > standard, according to your standards it would be slums:)))) 200 000 $
    >
    >
    >
    > I have a friend of my who was working as h1b guy in Iowa for about a
    > year during 2000. He said that many people were moving to IT without any
    > qualifications, they were just taking some 2 weeks courses and thought
    > that they are Software Engineers. All this just to make some money
    > during prosperity. Probably they have been now reduced due to recession,
    > but the point is they should never be hired.
    >
    > If somebody can develop some VB Forms using MS RAD tools(because he took
    > some funny 2 weeks long course) it is not enough to be called Software
    > Engineer. You have to now math, algorithms like Floyds, Dijkstra,
    >
    > and real huge amount of theoretical knowledge.You have to know something
    > from DB theory (I mean Math basis?). If you thing you are good because
    > you can develop asp.net page you are wrong. And what about business
    > reltions?Are you interested how IT fits to business?
    >
    >
    >
    > Hey, believe me, comparing to eastern Europe where I am living, you all
    > guys live in heaven. Despite 20% unemplyment rate in my country every
    > high-tech well skilled person have a job. I just can not understand and
    > believe that in US you can not find a job (only 6,9% UR!!). You are
    > saying you have been laid-off? So what? It is not Japan ten years ago
    > where You were hired till death.
    >
    >
    >
    > I bet if you can not find a job it is something wrong with you. Maybe
    > you are not such good as you thing or maybe there is some other reason.
    > Or maybe you are not searching for it hard enough.
    >
    >
    >
    > When I was changing job, I have sent about 1500 offers in two weeks. Now
    > I am preparing to study MBA on University and to take some Project
    > Management courses along with completing MCSD.NET. Now it is time for
    > people who are self confident, extremely well educated (IT Pros with
    > Financial and Business background) and who are "fighters".
    >
    >
    >
    > If somebody talk about end of IT this remainds me some story about
    > scientists from the begining of XX century who were proclaiming that it
    > is end of science because everything has been already invented:)))
    >
    > And really I think there is a bright future for real IT People. This is
    > industry will be witnessing unbelieveable growth (and you have a good
    > government and president who cut taxes, I wish we would have such
    > government)
    >
    >
    >
    > I would like to apologise if I have offended someone.
    >
    >
    >
    > Best Regards,
    >
    >
    >
    > Simon
    >
    >
    >
    > BS CS
    >
    > MCP, MCAD
    >
    >
    >
    > from Poland
    >
    >
    > --
    > Posted via http://dbforums.com
    Glenn D. Crosse, Sep 7, 2003
    #14
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