TV to DVD

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by KSB, Apr 1, 2004.

  1. KSB

    KSB Guest

    Just got a video capture board which allows me to capture TV off my cable.
    Can someone lead me to a primer on how to transfer the shows to a DVD (I
    have a DVD burner). My object is to do better then VCR quality.
    KSB, Apr 1, 2004
    #1
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  2. KSB

    Will Dormann Guest

    KSB wrote:

    > Just got a video capture board which allows me to capture TV off my cable.
    > Can someone lead me to a primer on how to transfer the shows to a DVD (I
    > have a DVD burner). My object is to do better then VCR quality.


    http://www.dvdrhelp.com/


    -WD
    Will Dormann, Apr 1, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. KSB wrote:

    > Just got a video capture board which allows me to capture TV off my cable.
    > Can someone lead me to a primer on how to transfer the shows to a DVD (I
    > have a DVD burner). My object is to do better then VCR quality.


    In a nutshell:

    1) Capture - This involves using a low compression capture using a
    capture type program, and digitizing the show while it's playing onto
    your hard drive. Depending on the CODEC and compression you used, it
    can be anywhere upwards for an hour of capture to be 40 gigs.. In
    general, the better you capture, the better you can work with in real
    time. Unfortunately, this also results in having to work with massive
    file sizes, and hugh throughputs of your hard drives.

    2) Editing - This involves yet another program to edit your now large
    captured file. Remove the commercials, ect.. Once your happy with your
    edit, you then output the highly compress video to to Mpeg2 (.mpv,.mp2),
    and output your sound (.wav,.ac3). Sound can be further worked on after
    this to mix and compress your sound down too.

    3) Authoring - This involves yet another program to now collect all your
    assets like your video files, and matching audio files, and assemble
    them in a structure. Mostly designing some kind of menu with buttons,
    and this gets it ready for the proper DVD format for DVD players to
    read. You can either have the author program create the structure for
    your and burn the disk, or simply write the structure to your hard drive
    where you can use Nero to burn the DVD.

    p.s. if you skip the VCR part, you'll defiantly get better then VCR
    quality..

    As to what programs you should buy/use to do all these steps.. I'll
    leave that one up too another discussion.

    Hope this helps.
    -Richard
    Richard Ragon, Apr 2, 2004
    #3
  4. KSB

    Guest

    On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 08:04:57 GMT, Richard Ragon
    <> wrote:

    >KSB wrote:
    >
    >> Just got a video capture board which allows me to capture TV off my cable.
    >> Can someone lead me to a primer on how to transfer the shows to a DVD (I
    >> have a DVD burner). My object is to do better then VCR quality.

    >
    >In a nutshell:
    >
    >1) Capture - This involves using a low compression capture using a
    >capture type program, and digitizing the show while it's playing onto
    >your hard drive. Depending on the CODEC and compression you used, it
    >can be anywhere upwards for an hour of capture to be 40 gigs.. In
    >general, the better you capture, the better you can work with in real
    >time. Unfortunately, this also results in having to work with massive
    >file sizes, and hugh throughputs of your hard drives.
    >

    yikes. I am hoping to use one of these cards to capture 2 hours of VHS
    and put it onto DVD. my hard disk is only 12 GB .
    do i have a chance ?
    can I break it up into 5 or 6 separate files and do it that way ?


    >2) Editing - This involves yet another program to edit your now large
    >captured file. Remove the commercials, ect.. Once your happy with your
    >edit, you then output the highly compress video to to Mpeg2 (.mpv,.mp2),
    >and output your sound (.wav,.ac3). Sound can be further worked on after
    >this to mix and compress your sound down too.
    >

    what about .VOB .BUP and .IFO files ?
    , Apr 2, 2004
    #4
  5. <> wrote:
    >yikes. I am hoping to use one of these cards to capture 2 hours of VHS
    >and put it onto DVD. my hard disk is only 12 GB .
    >do i have a chance ?
    >can I break it up into 5 or 6 separate files and do it that way ?


    Some of the software packages will let you record directly to the
    DVD-R. Obviously you give up your ability to edit, and potentially
    on quality. You should replace that hard drive - unless you're
    dealing with SCSI a 120G drive now sells for under 100USD.

    --
    Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com
    Jason O'Rourke, Apr 2, 2004
    #5
  6. KSB

    Mike Kohary Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 08:04:57 GMT, Richard Ragon
    > >
    > >1) Capture - This involves using a low compression capture using a
    > >capture type program, and digitizing the show while it's playing onto
    > >your hard drive. Depending on the CODEC and compression you used, it
    > >can be anywhere upwards for an hour of capture to be 40 gigs.. In
    > >general, the better you capture, the better you can work with in real
    > >time. Unfortunately, this also results in having to work with massive
    > >file sizes, and hugh throughputs of your hard drives.
    > >

    > yikes. I am hoping to use one of these cards to capture 2 hours of VHS
    > and put it onto DVD. my hard disk is only 12 GB .
    > do i have a chance ?
    > can I break it up into 5 or 6 separate files and do it that way ?


    Not a chance with a 12GB drive. 2 hours of video capture at full DV quality
    will require at least 24GB. You'll need a much bigger hard drive, and you
    can't split it up to edit and eventually burn. The good news: hard drive
    storage is very cheap these days. You can easily buy a huge hard drive
    (200GB or better) for a couple of hundred dollars, maybe even less (not sure
    on exact prices these days, I last bought 9 months ago, but I know it's
    cheap).

    Mike
    Mike Kohary, Apr 2, 2004
    #6
  7. KSB

    Old Nick Guest

    On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 09:28:52 +0100, vaguely proposed
    a theory
    .......and in reply I say!:
    remove ns from my header address to reply via email

    You have a _chance_...not much more. What do you have left? how
    fragmented is it? What quality do you want? Does the rest of your
    system match 12GB of drive (minimal)?

    Sorry to "attack" but for any Multimedia stuff you need space and
    power above all else.

    40GB(I have 80 and it's being eaten), 512 RAM, 1Ghz (I have 800 Mhz
    and it's OK).

    >yikes. I am hoping to use one of these cards to capture 2 hours of VHS
    >and put it onto DVD. my hard disk is only 12 GB .
    >do i have a chance ?
    >can I break it up into 5 or 6 separate files and do it that way ?


    ****************************************************
    remove ns from my header address to reply via email

    I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
    us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
    .........no I'm not.
    Old Nick, Apr 2, 2004
    #7
  8. wrote:

    > On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 08:04:57 GMT, Richard Ragon
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>KSB wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Just got a video capture board which allows me to capture TV off my cable.
    >>>Can someone lead me to a primer on how to transfer the shows to a DVD (I
    >>>have a DVD burner). My object is to do better then VCR quality.

    >>
    >>In a nutshell:
    >>
    >>1) Capture - This involves using a low compression capture using a
    >>capture type program, and digitizing the show while it's playing onto
    >>your hard drive. Depending on the CODEC and compression you used, it
    >>can be anywhere upwards for an hour of capture to be 40 gigs.. In
    >>general, the better you capture, the better you can work with in real
    >>time. Unfortunately, this also results in having to work with massive
    >>file sizes, and hugh throughputs of your hard drives.
    >>

    >
    > yikes. I am hoping to use one of these cards to capture 2 hours of VHS
    > and put it onto DVD. my hard disk is only 12 GB .
    > do i have a chance ?
    > can I break it up into 5 or 6 separate files and do it that way ?
    >

    Another issue is the speed of your processor. If you have a desktop
    that came with a 12GB, I am guess your processor isn't going to be of
    the current generation. What you want to do is fairly processor
    intensive, so I hope you have some time on your hands. Also, if you do
    go buy a new HDD, get one with 8MB cache if possible (and compatible
    with your motherboard).

    Adios,
    ~Nick
    Nicholas Andrade, Apr 2, 2004
    #8
  9. KSB

    Old Nick Guest

    On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 05:48:40 -0800, "Mike Kohary" <>
    vaguely proposed a theory
    .......and in reply I say!:
    remove ns from my header address to reply via email


    >Not a chance with a 12GB drive.


    Agreed.


    >2 hours of video capture at full DV quality
    >will require at least 24GB.


    Not sure about that. MPEG compression to full commercial DVD standard
    would require about 9Gb wouldn't it? That's how much it takes for a 2
    hour DVD, IIANM. 2 hours fits on a 2-layer DVD at commercial standard.

    >You'll need a much bigger hard drive, and you
    >can't split it up to edit and eventually burn. The good news: hard drive
    >storage is very cheap these days. You can easily buy a huge hard drive
    >(200GB or better) for a couple of hundred dollars, maybe even less (not sure
    >on exact prices these days, I last bought 9 months ago, but I know it's
    >cheap).
    >
    >Mike
    >


    ****************************************************
    remove ns from my header address to reply via email

    I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
    us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
    .........no I'm not.
    Old Nick, Apr 3, 2004
    #9
  10. KSB

    Robert Baer Guest

    Jason O'Rourke wrote:
    >
    > <> wrote:
    > >yikes. I am hoping to use one of these cards to capture 2 hours of VHS
    > >and put it onto DVD. my hard disk is only 12 GB .
    > >do i have a chance ?
    > >can I break it up into 5 or 6 separate files and do it that way ?

    >
    > Some of the software packages will let you record directly to the
    > DVD-R. Obviously you give up your ability to edit, and potentially
    > on quality. You should replace that hard drive - unless you're
    > dealing with SCSI a 120G drive now sells for under 100USD.
    >
    > --
    > Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com


    Actually, only a few gigabytes are needed; roughly 1Gbytes per hour,
    when using WMV format.
    Robert Baer, Apr 3, 2004
    #10
  11. KSB

    Mike Kohary Guest

    "Old Nick" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 05:48:40 -0800, "Mike Kohary" <>
    >
    > >2 hours of video capture at full DV quality
    > >will require at least 24GB.

    >
    > Not sure about that. MPEG compression to full commercial DVD standard
    > would require about 9Gb wouldn't it? That's how much it takes for a 2
    > hour DVD, IIANM. 2 hours fits on a 2-layer DVD at commercial standard.


    That's mpeg compressed - I specified "DV quality" above. :) DV quality is
    what comes straight off a mini-DV tape, for example. It's very slightly
    compressed and usually captured to AVI, which adds no compression of its
    own. Mpeg compression, of course, makes it much smaller, but you don't do
    that until you finally master it to DVD. In the meantime, you're working
    with files of at least 12GB/hour, if not bigger (depending on your capture
    resolution). You could capture at more compression resulting in smaller
    file size, but you'll lose quality. IMO the trade-off simply isn't worth
    it.

    His 12GB drive is inadequate to the task, even for smaller files. Recall
    that he doesn't actually have 12GB to work with; part of that is taken by
    his OS and applications, so he probably has much less. If he has nothing
    but the bare minimum installed he probably has 8-9GB or so - not nearly
    enough. I'd be curious as to his system specs as well, because if it's a
    machine from the same era as when 12GB drives were standard, it's probably
    not up to the task and he'll simply need a whole new system.

    Mike
    Mike Kohary, Apr 3, 2004
    #11
  12. KSB

    Mike Kohary Guest

    "Robert Baer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Jason O'Rourke wrote:
    > >
    > > <> wrote:
    > > >yikes. I am hoping to use one of these cards to capture 2 hours of VHS
    > > >and put it onto DVD. my hard disk is only 12 GB .
    > > >do i have a chance ?
    > > >can I break it up into 5 or 6 separate files and do it that way ?

    > >
    > > Some of the software packages will let you record directly to the
    > > DVD-R. Obviously you give up your ability to edit, and potentially
    > > on quality. You should replace that hard drive - unless you're
    > > dealing with SCSI a 120G drive now sells for under 100USD.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

    >
    > Actually, only a few gigabytes are needed; roughly 1Gbytes per hour,
    > when using WMV format.


    That's not something you'd want to burn onto DVD - it'll look like crap.

    Mike
    Mike Kohary, Apr 3, 2004
    #12
  13. KSB

    DontHaveOne Guest

    On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 08:04:57 GMT, Richard Ragon
    <> wrote:

    >KSB wrote:
    >
    >> Just got a video capture board which allows me to capture TV off my cable.
    >> Can someone lead me to a primer on how to transfer the shows to a DVD (I
    >> have a DVD burner). My object is to do better then VCR quality.

    >
    >In a nutshell:
    >
    >1) Capture - This involves using a low compression capture using a
    >capture type program, and digitizing the show while it's playing onto
    >your hard drive. Depending on the CODEC and compression you used, it
    >can be anywhere upwards for an hour of capture to be 40 gigs.. In
    >general, the better you capture, the better you can work with in real
    >time. Unfortunately, this also results in having to work with massive
    >file sizes, and hugh throughputs of your hard drives.
    >
    >2) Editing - This involves yet another program to edit your now large
    >captured file. Remove the commercials, ect.. Once your happy with your
    >edit, you then output the highly compress video to to Mpeg2 (.mpv,.mp2),
    >and output your sound (.wav,.ac3). Sound can be further worked on after
    >this to mix and compress your sound down too.
    >
    >3) Authoring - This involves yet another program to now collect all your
    >assets like your video files, and matching audio files, and assemble
    >them in a structure. Mostly designing some kind of menu with buttons,
    >and this gets it ready for the proper DVD format for DVD players to
    >read. You can either have the author program create the structure for
    >your and burn the disk, or simply write the structure to your hard drive
    >where you can use Nero to burn the DVD.
    >
    >p.s. if you skip the VCR part, you'll defiantly get better then VCR
    >quality..
    >
    >As to what programs you should buy/use to do all these steps.. I'll
    >leave that one up too another discussion.
    >
    >Hope this helps.
    >-Richard


    Richard gave you a good quick and dirty outline on what you need to
    do. I'd like to add a couple of things.

    I'd second the motion to get a larger second HD. It is barely possible
    to do video on a small 12 GB hard drive. To give you an example last
    night I captured 70 minutes of video from the television and it came
    out to 1.7 GB. I can capture a 2 hour movie with around 2.5 GB. I'm
    capturing in Mpeg2 format at 3000 kbits/sec. So theorically you could
    capture and still have room to make the DVD. I wouldn't recommend it
    though. Just much easier to have a second hard drive. I fell into a
    deal while looking for a HD I was looking for a 80GB drive and found a
    160GB at Office Depot that they wanted to get rid of for the same
    price as a 80GB. So look around at your local CompUSA, Best Buy,
    Office Max, Office Depot, etc and usually on Sunday you can find the
    good deals that they have.

    To give you a little explanation on how I can capture a 2 hour movie
    in much less space than what some of the others were talking about. I
    have a cheap AverMedia TV capture card. (cost $50) the thing that's
    nice about it though is it captures in (a kind of) Mpeg2 format. This
    saves considerable space. I then use Mpeg-VCR to edit out any
    commercials. I then use TMPGEnc Plus ver 2.58.44.152 to convert it to
    a valid DVD or SVCD Mpeg2 file. Then I use TMPGEnc DVD Author ver
    1.5.15.49 to create a DVD with menus (including motion menus). I then
    burn the DVD to disk with Nero Burning ROM or I use Nero to burn
    without menus my SVCD's.

    You can learn about all of this at the link that one of the other
    posters put up to http://www.dvdrhelp.com/ they are a great resource.
    Lots of good guides that show you step by step how to do things.
    You're entering a strange and wonderful journey of discovery of video
    capture, good luck.
    DontHaveOne, Apr 3, 2004
    #13
  14. KSB

    Steve K. Guest

    KSB wrote:

    > Just got a video capture board which allows me to capture TV off my cable.
    > Can someone lead me to a primer on how to transfer the shows to a DVD (I
    > have a DVD burner). My object is to do better then VCR quality.


    http://www.apple.com/ilife/idvd/
    Steve K., Apr 3, 2004
    #14
  15. KSB

    Old Nick Guest

    On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 06:39:52 -0800, "Mike Kohary" <>
    vaguely proposed a theory
    .......and in reply I say!:
    remove ns from my header address to reply via email

    >"Old Nick" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 05:48:40 -0800, "Mike Kohary" <>
    >>
    >> >2 hours of video capture at full DV quality
    >> >will require at least 24GB.

    >>
    >> Not sure about that. MPEG compression to full commercial DVD standard
    >> would require about 9Gb wouldn't it? That's how much it takes for a 2
    >> hour DVD, IIANM. 2 hours fits on a 2-layer DVD at commercial standard.

    >
    >That's mpeg compressed - I specified "DV quality" above. :)


    Yes. Sorry. I read DVD quality.

    >His 12GB drive is inadequate to the task, even for smaller files.


    Even I had said that, thinking of DVD/MPEG.
    ****************************************************
    remove ns from my header address to reply via email

    I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
    us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
    .........no I'm not.
    Old Nick, Apr 4, 2004
    #15
  16. KSB

    Old Nick Guest

    On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 06:39:52 -0800, "Mike Kohary" <>
    vaguely proposed a theory
    .......and in reply I say!:
    remove ns from my header address to reply via email

    >"Old Nick" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 05:48:40 -0800, "Mike Kohary" <>
    >>
    >> >2 hours of video capture at full DV quality
    >> >will require at least 24GB.

    >>
    >> Not sure about that. MPEG compression to full commercial DVD standard
    >> would require about 9Gb wouldn't it? That's how much it takes for a 2
    >> hour DVD, IIANM. 2 hours fits on a 2-layer DVD at commercial standard.

    >
    >That's mpeg compressed - I specified "DV quality" above. :)


    I do have to add that the OP seems to be asking for a far less
    sophisticated result that you are talking about. If they had a DV
    camera and had asked about that, and editing etc, then I would
    certainly see a different story.

    > DV quality is
    >what comes straight off a mini-DV tape, for example. It's very slightly
    >compressed and usually captured to AVI, which adds no compression of its


    ****************************************************
    remove ns from my header address to reply via email

    I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
    us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
    .........no I'm not.
    Old Nick, Apr 4, 2004
    #16
  17. KSB

    Robert Baer Guest

    Mike Kohary wrote:
    >
    > "Robert Baer" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Jason O'Rourke wrote:
    > > >
    > > > <> wrote:
    > > > >yikes. I am hoping to use one of these cards to capture 2 hours of VHS
    > > > >and put it onto DVD. my hard disk is only 12 GB .
    > > > >do i have a chance ?
    > > > >can I break it up into 5 or 6 separate files and do it that way ?
    > > >
    > > > Some of the software packages will let you record directly to the
    > > > DVD-R. Obviously you give up your ability to edit, and potentially
    > > > on quality. You should replace that hard drive - unless you're
    > > > dealing with SCSI a 120G drive now sells for under 100USD.
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

    > >
    > > Actually, only a few gigabytes are needed; roughly 1Gbytes per hour,
    > > when using WMV format.

    >
    > That's not something you'd want to burn onto DVD - it'll look like crap.
    >
    > Mike


    Not true; the quality that i see is as good as watching a commercial
    DVD on my computer.
    The DVD disk in this case is being used as a data disk, with the WMV
    file(s) on it.
    Works the same as an extra hard (read-only) drive.
    Robert Baer, Apr 4, 2004
    #17
  18. KSB

    Mike Kohary Guest

    "Robert Baer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Mike Kohary wrote:
    > >
    > > "Robert Baer" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > Jason O'Rourke wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > <> wrote:
    > > > > >yikes. I am hoping to use one of these cards to capture 2 hours of

    VHS
    > > > > >and put it onto DVD. my hard disk is only 12 GB .
    > > > > >do i have a chance ?
    > > > > >can I break it up into 5 or 6 separate files and do it that way ?
    > > > >
    > > > > Some of the software packages will let you record directly to the
    > > > > DVD-R. Obviously you give up your ability to edit, and potentially
    > > > > on quality. You should replace that hard drive - unless you're
    > > > > dealing with SCSI a 120G drive now sells for under 100USD.
    > > > >
    > > > > --
    > > > > Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com
    > > >
    > > > Actually, only a few gigabytes are needed; roughly 1Gbytes per hour,
    > > > when using WMV format.

    > >
    > > That's not something you'd want to burn onto DVD - it'll look like crap.
    > >
    > > Mike

    >
    > Not true; the quality that i see is as good as watching a commercial
    > DVD on my computer.
    > The DVD disk in this case is being used as a data disk, with the WMV
    > file(s) on it.
    > Works the same as an extra hard (read-only) drive.


    At 1GB per hour? Then why don't they use similar technology for mainstream
    commercial DVDs - imagine the possibilities. No, I'm sorry, I'm not trying
    to be rude, but I simply don't believe such a bitstream can look as good as
    mpeg2 quality (which is what is used on DVDs), much less DV quality.

    Mike
    Mike Kohary, Apr 7, 2004
    #18
  19. KSB

    Mike Kohary Guest

    "Old Nick" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 06:39:52 -0800, "Mike Kohary" <>
    > vaguely proposed a theory
    > ......and in reply I say!:
    > remove ns from my header address to reply via email
    >
    > >"Old Nick" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 05:48:40 -0800, "Mike Kohary" <>
    > >>
    > >> >2 hours of video capture at full DV quality
    > >> >will require at least 24GB.
    > >>
    > >> Not sure about that. MPEG compression to full commercial DVD standard
    > >> would require about 9Gb wouldn't it? That's how much it takes for a 2
    > >> hour DVD, IIANM. 2 hours fits on a 2-layer DVD at commercial standard.

    > >
    > >That's mpeg compressed - I specified "DV quality" above. :)

    >
    > I do have to add that the OP seems to be asking for a far less
    > sophisticated result that you are talking about. If they had a DV
    > camera and had asked about that, and editing etc, then I would
    > certainly see a different story.


    Yes, he might be and that's fine. There's no reason you can't capture and
    edit compressed files on a 12GB drive (though you'll still be pressed for
    space given that you need an OS and applications on that drive).

    Mike
    Mike Kohary, Apr 7, 2004
    #19
  20. KSB

    MauiJNP Guest

    "Richard Ragon" <> wrote in message
    news:J89bc.1286236$...
    > KSB wrote:
    >
    > > Just got a video capture board which allows me to capture TV off my

    cable.
    > > Can someone lead me to a primer on how to transfer the shows to a DVD (I
    > > have a DVD burner). My object is to do better then VCR quality.

    >
    > In a nutshell:
    >
    > 1) Capture - This involves using a low compression capture using a
    > capture type program, and digitizing the show while it's playing onto
    > your hard drive. Depending on the CODEC and compression you used, it
    > can be anywhere upwards for an hour of capture to be 40 gigs.. In
    > general, the better you capture, the better you can work with in real
    > time. Unfortunately, this also results in having to work with massive
    > file sizes, and hugh throughputs of your hard drives.
    >
    > 2) Editing - This involves yet another program to edit your now large
    > captured file. Remove the commercials, ect.. Once your happy with your
    > edit, you then output the highly compress video to to Mpeg2 (.mpv,.mp2),
    > and output your sound (.wav,.ac3). Sound can be further worked on after
    > this to mix and compress your sound down too.
    >
    > 3) Authoring - This involves yet another program to now collect all your
    > assets like your video files, and matching audio files, and assemble
    > them in a structure. Mostly designing some kind of menu with buttons,
    > and this gets it ready for the proper DVD format for DVD players to
    > read. You can either have the author program create the structure for
    > your and burn the disk, or simply write the structure to your hard drive
    > where you can use Nero to burn the DVD.
    >
    > p.s. if you skip the VCR part, you'll defiantly get better then VCR
    > quality..
    >
    > As to what programs you should buy/use to do all these steps.. I'll
    > leave that one up too another discussion.
    >



    Great stuff but can someone recommend the programs now.......
    MauiJNP, Apr 12, 2004
    #20
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