Trouble Reproducing the Color Purple

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by powrwrap@aol.com, Dec 29, 2005.

  1. Guest

    Newbie here. I've got a Canon A520 but the problem I'm describing is
    not unique to this camera or even digital photography.

    One thing I have noticed for years and years is the difficulty of
    photographs, TV broadcasts, videotapes, etc. reproducing the color
    purple. I've noticed this because I'm in Minnesota and am a Viking fan.
    It seems that just about every electronic device has trouble properly
    rendering the Viking color purple. It comes out as a dark blue.

    When I watch TV broadcasts of the Vikings their uniforms look dark
    blue. I thought this was an effect from playing inside the MetroDome
    with its fluorescent lights but even away games with overcast skies the
    uniforms show up as dark blue. On away games with bright sunlight the
    uniforms take on a somewhat purple color, close but not a match.

    I've had various brands of TV's and VCR's over the years and so far
    only Sony seems to be able to render the color purple accurately. A
    friend of mine has a brand new 52" JVC HDTV--Viking purple shows as
    dark blue. One of my sons has a Viking sweatshirt. I took a picture of
    him with my new A520. The LCD image shows it to be dark blue.

    Anybody want to see this for yourself? If you are in Minnesota or
    Illinois, tune into the Vikings game on FOX TV at 3:15 on New Year's
    Day.

    Or look at this photo from inside the MetroDome:

    http://www.startribune.com/stonline/images/news39/5vike0827.l.jpg

    Then look at this photo from an outdoor game:

    http://sportserver.nandomedia.com/ips_rich_content/639-moss.jpg


    Can someone explain why the color purple cannot be rendered accurately?
     
    , Dec 29, 2005
    #1
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  2. rafe b Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Newbie here. I've got a Canon A520 but the problem I'm describing is
    > not unique to this camera or even digital photography.
    >
    > One thing I have noticed for years and years is the difficulty of
    > photographs, TV broadcasts, videotapes, etc. reproducing the color
    > purple. I've noticed this because I'm in Minnesota and am a Viking fan.
    > It seems that just about every electronic device has trouble properly
    > rendering the Viking color purple. It comes out as a dark blue.
    >
    > When I watch TV broadcasts of the Vikings their uniforms look dark
    > blue. I thought this was an effect from playing inside the MetroDome
    > with its fluorescent lights but even away games with overcast skies the
    > uniforms show up as dark blue. On away games with bright sunlight the
    > uniforms take on a somewhat purple color, close but not a match.



    CRTs should be able to reproduce purple
    without too much trouble -- but it is a known
    problem that deep, saturated purple is outside
    the gamut of most CMYK printing methods.

    Furthermore it's not a "color management"
    issue -- it's simply a gamut limitation of CMYK
    inks.

    (Ref: "Professional Photoshop" by Dan Margulis.)

    rafe b
    www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafe b, Dec 29, 2005
    #2
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  3. salgud Guest

    wrote:
    > Newbie here. I've got a Canon A520 but the problem I'm describing is
    > not unique to this camera or even digital photography.
    >
    > One thing I have noticed for years and years is the difficulty of
    > photographs, TV broadcasts, videotapes, etc. reproducing the color
    > purple. I've noticed this because I'm in Minnesota and am a Viking fan.
    > It seems that just about every electronic device has trouble properly
    > rendering the Viking color purple. It comes out as a dark blue.
    >
    > When I watch TV broadcasts of the Vikings their uniforms look dark
    > blue. I thought this was an effect from playing inside the MetroDome
    > with its fluorescent lights but even away games with overcast skies the
    > uniforms show up as dark blue. On away games with bright sunlight the
    > uniforms take on a somewhat purple color, close but not a match.
    >
    > I've had various brands of TV's and VCR's over the years and so far
    > only Sony seems to be able to render the color purple accurately. A
    > friend of mine has a brand new 52" JVC HDTV--Viking purple shows as
    > dark blue. One of my sons has a Viking sweatshirt. I took a picture of
    > him with my new A520. The LCD image shows it to be dark blue.
    >
    > Anybody want to see this for yourself? If you are in Minnesota or
    > Illinois, tune into the Vikings game on FOX TV at 3:15 on New Year's
    > Day.
    >
    > Or look at this photo from inside the MetroDome:
    >
    > http://www.startribune.com/stonline/images/news39/5vike0827.l.jpg
    >
    > Then look at this photo from an outdoor game:
    >
    > http://sportserver.nandomedia.com/ips_rich_content/639-moss.jpg
    >
    >
    > Can someone explain why the color purple cannot be rendered accurately?


    Why don't you just root for a good football team and solve 2 problems
    at once? No more blue-appearing purple uniforms, and they might win a
    few games if you pick right. I'd suggest the Broncos! :)
     
    salgud, Dec 29, 2005
    #3
  4. Guest


    > rafe b wrote:



    > CRTs should be able to reproduce purple
    > without too much trouble -- but it is a known
    > problem that deep, saturated purple is outside
    > the gamut of most CMYK printing methods.


    > Furthermore it's not a "color management"
    > issue -- it's simply a gamut limitation of CMYK
    > inks.
    >
    > (Ref: "Professional Photoshop" by Dan Margulis.)



    That does not explain why 95% of the TV's I've ever seen can't
    reproduce it, nor why my new camera can't reproduce it.
     
    , Dec 29, 2005
    #4
  5. Guest


    > salgud wrote:


    > > wrote:

    ...
    > > Can someone explain why the color purple cannot be rendered accurately?

    ...


    > Why don't you just root for a good football team and solve 2 problems
    > at once? No more blue-appearing purple uniforms, and they might win a
    > few games if you pick right. I'd suggest the Broncos! :)


    LOL. I've got a friend that moved to Denver a couple of years ago. He's
    been fully converted to the Broncos. They are a pretty good team this
    year, but in a tough conference. I don't see how the NFC will win the
    Super Bowl, no matter what team represents the AFC.
     
    , Dec 29, 2005
    #5
  6. rafe b Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >> rafe b wrote:

    >
    >
    >> CRTs should be able to reproduce purple
    >> without too much trouble -- but it is a known
    >> problem that deep, saturated purple is outside
    >> the gamut of most CMYK printing methods.

    >
    >> Furthermore it's not a "color management"
    >> issue -- it's simply a gamut limitation of CMYK
    >> inks.
    >>
    >> (Ref: "Professional Photoshop" by Dan Margulis.)

    >
    >
    > That does not explain why 95% of the TV's I've ever seen can't
    > reproduce it, nor why my new camera can't reproduce it.



    No, it doesn't. So sorry. I just told
    you all I know about The Color Purple.


    rafe b
    www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafe b, Dec 29, 2005
    #6
  7. salgud Guest

    wrote:
    > > salgud wrote:

    >
    > > > wrote:

    > ..
    > > > Can someone explain why the color purple cannot be rendered accurately?

    > ..
    >
    >
    > > Why don't you just root for a good football team and solve 2 problems
    > > at once? No more blue-appearing purple uniforms, and they might win a
    > > few games if you pick right. I'd suggest the Broncos! :)

    >
    > LOL. I've got a friend that moved to Denver a couple of years ago. He's
    > been fully converted to the Broncos.


    Hard to live here and not be a Broncos fan. Pretty serious fans here.
    And we have bounties on anyone in a Raiders or Chiefs shirt!

    They are a pretty good team this
    > year, but in a tough conference. I don't see how the NFC will win the
    > Super Bowl, no matter what team represents the AFC.


    Amazing how they've switched. From '69 to '96, AFC didn't win one. Now,
    the NFC teams aren't contenders. But I prefer it this way, since my
    team is AFC!
     
    salgud, Dec 29, 2005
    #7
  8. Ian Anderson Guest

    On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:12:06 -0800, powrwrap wrote:

    >
    >> rafe b wrote:

    >
    >
    >> CRTs should be able to reproduce purple
    >> without too much trouble -- but it is a known
    >> problem that deep, saturated purple is outside
    >> the gamut of most CMYK printing methods.

    >
    >> Furthermore it's not a "color management"
    >> issue -- it's simply a gamut limitation of CMYK
    >> inks.
    >>
    >> (Ref: "Professional Photoshop" by Dan Margulis.)

    >
    >
    > That does not explain why 95% of the TV's I've ever seen can't
    > reproduce it, nor why my new camera can't reproduce it.


    Have you found that deep reds don't reproduce properly either? Try
    photographing a dark red rose. It is well known in the astronomical
    community that the infra-red low-pass filter in the CCD / CMOS cameras
    block some of the deep red colours. This may well cause the reproducion
    effect you are reporting in the purple. I have seen the same issue with a
    Canon G3 and a 20D. The 20D can be fixed, with some risk and added
    inconvenience.

    Regards Ian
     
    Ian Anderson, Dec 30, 2005
    #8
  9. Frank ess Guest

    Ian Anderson wrote:
    > On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:12:06 -0800, powrwrap wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>> rafe b wrote:

    >>
    >>
    >>> CRTs should be able to reproduce purple
    >>> without too much trouble -- but it is a known
    >>> problem that deep, saturated purple is outside
    >>> the gamut of most CMYK printing methods.

    >>
    >>> Furthermore it's not a "color management"
    >>> issue -- it's simply a gamut limitation of CMYK
    >>> inks.
    >>>
    >>> (Ref: "Professional Photoshop" by Dan Margulis.)

    >>
    >>
    >> That does not explain why 95% of the TV's I've ever seen can't
    >> reproduce it, nor why my new camera can't reproduce it.

    >
    > Have you found that deep reds don't reproduce properly either? Try
    > photographing a dark red rose. It is well known in the astronomical
    > community that the infra-red low-pass filter in the CCD / CMOS
    > cameras
    > block some of the deep red colours. This may well cause the
    > reproducion effect you are reporting in the purple. I have seen the
    > same issue with a Canon G3 and a 20D. The 20D can be fixed, with
    > some risk and added inconvenience.
    >
    > Regards Ian


    Rose is true-to-life (350D / RebXT) :
    http://static.flickr.com/24/46011553_64684a34d7_o.jpg

    The flowers are deep purple (20D) :
    http://static.flickr.com/29/37653293_866eb45f4d_o.jpg

    Mystery: why do the Lavender flowers seem pink, and the very-near same
    Lavender-colored collar stay that color? (20D) :
    http://static.flickr.com/33/48307636_67845bae3d_o.jpg

    This mint blossom is true-to-life Lavender (20D) :
    http://static.flickr.com/31/48478352_5ac11cba1a_o.jpg

    --
    Frank ess
     
    Frank ess, Dec 30, 2005
    #9
  10. Ian Anderson Guest

    Hello Frank.
    I won't dispute your images but it doesn't detract from the argument
    that the combination of pigments in some flowers make the colours we
    perceive difficult to reproduce properly. This is not the sole domain of
    canon either, an acquaintance has complained of the same short-comings
    in a nikon DSLR when applied to both astronomical work with the hydrogen
    D line (deep red) and some flowers. Hence the 20Da which partially
    improves the deep red sensitivity.

    Regards
    Ian
     
    Ian Anderson, Dec 30, 2005
    #10
  11. Frank ess Guest

    Ian Anderson wrote:
    > Hello Frank.
    > I won't dispute your images


    Well, that's certainly a relief...

    but it doesn't detract from the argument
    > that the combination of pigments in some flowers make the colours we
    > perceive difficult to reproduce properly. This is not the sole
    > domain
    > of canon either, an acquaintance has complained of the same
    > short-comings in a nikon DSLR when applied to both astronomical work
    > with the hydrogen D line (deep red) and some flowers. Hence the
    > 20Da
    > which partially improves the deep red sensitivity.
    >
    > Regards
    > Ian


    It was just an offer of examples that fell to hand. The prints I've
    made from those images show pretty close to no purple -- blue
    predominates -- and everything else in them is very close to screen
    colors.

    More Magick (flute?) than science, my view.

    --
    Frank ess
     
    Frank ess, Dec 30, 2005
    #11
  12. Matt Ion Guest

    wrote:

    > I've noticed this because I'm in Minnesota and am a Viking fan.


    My sympathies.


    ---
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    Matt Ion, Dec 30, 2005
    #12
  13. Matt Ion Guest

    salgud wrote:

    > Why don't you just root for a good football team and solve 2 problems
    > at once? No more blue-appearing purple uniforms, and they might win a
    > few games if you pick right. I'd suggest the Broncos! :)


    Hey, what's the difference between John Elway and OJ Simpson?

    OJ drove a slow white Bronco... Elway WAS a slow white Bronco!




    ---
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    Matt Ion, Dec 30, 2005
    #13
  14. Matt Ion Guest

    wrote:

    > Or look at this photo from inside the MetroDome:
    >
    > http://www.startribune.com/stonline/images/news39/5vike0827.l.jpg
    >
    > Then look at this photo from an outdoor game:
    >
    > http://sportserver.nandomedia.com/ips_rich_content/639-moss.jpg


    The second one looks REALLY purple to me. The first one is between a
    deep purple and blue. Offhand I'd blame the indoor lighting; auto-white
    balance can only do so much.


    ---
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    http://www.avast.com
     
    Matt Ion, Dec 30, 2005
    #14
  15. ASAAR Guest

    On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:36:27 -0800, Frank ess wrote:

    >> I won't dispute your images

    >
    > Well, that's certainly a relief...


    Do I detect a couple of crossed fingers?


    >> of canon either, an acquaintance has complained of the same short-
    >> comings in a nikon DSLR when applied to both astronomical work
    >> with the hydrogen D line (deep red) and some flowers. Hence the
    >> 20Da which partially improves the deep red sensitivity.

    >
    > It was just an offer of examples that fell to hand. The prints I've
    > made from those images show pretty close to no purple -- blue
    > predominates -- and everything else in them is very close to screen
    > colors.
    >
    > More Magick (flute?) than science, my view.


    Are you trying to pin the blame on the evil Queen of the Night?
     
    ASAAR, Dec 30, 2005
    #15
  16. salgud Guest

    Matt Ion wrote:
    > salgud wrote:
    >
    > > Why don't you just root for a good football team and solve 2 problems
    > > at once? No more blue-appearing purple uniforms, and they might win a
    > > few games if you pick right. I'd suggest the Broncos! :)

    >
    > Hey, what's the difference between John Elway and OJ Simpson?
    >
    > OJ drove a slow white Bronco... Elway WAS a slow white Bronco!


    LOL! Better be careful, tellin' Elway jokes 'll get cha shot out this
    way!

    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ---
    > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
    > Virus Database (VPS): 0552-2, 12/29/2005
    > Tested on: 12/29/2005 8:29:22 PM
    > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
    > http://www.avast.com
     
    salgud, Dec 30, 2005
    #16
  17. MadHatter Guest

    Your dates are a little off. I think it's '86-'97.
     
    MadHatter, Dec 30, 2005
    #17
  18. Guest

    > >salgud wrote:

    > >Amazing how they've switched. From '69 to '96, AFC didn't win one. Now,

    the NFC teams aren't contenders.


    > MadHatter wrote:
    > Your dates are a little off. I think it's '86-'97.


    Indeed. I personally can recall the Chiefs, Steelers, Dolphins, and
    Raiders beating the Vikings four times in the 70's.
     
    , Dec 30, 2005
    #18
  19. salgud Guest

    MadHatter wrote:
    > Your dates are a little off. I think it's '86-'97.


    You're right about 86. But the Broncos won it in '97.
     
    salgud, Dec 30, 2005
    #19
  20. Guest

    The color purple is not a single frequency emitted color - at no point
    in the color spectrum are red and blue adjacent to each other, so what
    you see through your eyes is your brain's approximation of red+blue.

    Violet is actually dark blue.
    Ultra violet is actually green with yellow and blue dots
    [Are you sure about the last one? - Ed]

    The camera is showing you the real color.

    I had this issue with my D2X, but my D70 does a good job of rendering
    something close to purple.

    Dave
     
    , Dec 30, 2005
    #20
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