Training and Career

Discussion in 'MCSD' started by confused@orlacchio.com, May 27, 2004.

  1. Guest

    I am mainframe COBOL/CICS/VSAM programmer with no college
    degree, only certifications in mainframe Computer
    Operations ('82') and Computer Programming ('89'). Seven
    years experience in operations, 12 years in programming,
    with the last six as a consultant. In both operations and
    programming I caught on fast and rose quickly, was very
    good technically but never had aspirations for management
    (could manage projects, couldn't deal with micro
    management by upper management with political agendas
    related to cross and/or interdepartmental squabbling). My
    last contract ended in September of 2001, although I have
    good references, I have not found a job since then.

    Currently working with Voc-Rehab and starting CBT courses
    to get certified in Network+, Security+, MCSE (70-210, 70-
    215, 70-216, 70-217, 70-219, 70-220, 70-221, 70-292 and
    70-296) and Cisco CCNA.

    Upon successful certification they would be will to
    sponsor .NET CBT to earn training to pass MCSD as well as
    training for MCDBA, J2SE, JSEE. The CBT vendor we are
    starting with is LearnKey.

    I have dabbled with VB 6.0, making only small basic stand
    alone programs and some forms interfacing with ACCESS (XP
    version) (over a year ago). I have written basic PERL and
    PHP applications that interface with MySQL. I have NO
    budget for books and lost access to the net for over a
    year. I have only done scribble with Visual C++ 6.0.

    In short, no business production environment experience
    at all with these products, is it realistic to expect to
    achieve MCSD certification with a CBT with this
    background?

    And after getting all of these certifications, just how
    helpful will they be without any prior experience or a
    college degree given my background?

    And lastly opinions on CBT's, and the quality of CBT
    vendors.
     
    , May 27, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Eric Guest

    wrote:

    > I am mainframe COBOL/CICS/VSAM programmer with no college
    > degree,


    I started this way, too.

    The biggest challenge for you is to learn about OOP. It's critical that
    you understand the "whys" and the big picture of it. Simply
    understanding how to code a class and use it isn't enough.

    > My last contract ended in September of 2001, although I have
    > good references, I have not found a job since then.


    I understand. What city do you live in? It seems to me like many of the
    job problems are regional. People who are willing to relocate have the
    most job possibilities.

    > Currently working with Voc-Rehab and starting CBT courses
    > to get certified in Network+, Security+, MCSE (70-210, 70-
    > 215, 70-216, 70-217, 70-219, 70-220, 70-221, 70-292 and
    > 70-296) and Cisco CCNA.


    Wow - This is not a programming track. Do you think it's wise to mix
    this kind of thing with programming?

    > Upon successful certification they would be will to
    > sponsor .NET CBT to earn training to pass MCSD as well as
    > training for MCDBA, J2SE, JSEE. The CBT vendor we are
    > starting with is LearnKey.


    LearnKey is probably the best company of this type. However, it sounds
    like they're trying to sell you a "bill of goods". It doesn't make
    sense for you to try to learn a dozen largely-unrelated computer
    subjects! This is fine over a period of many years, but I think you
    should learn one area well, and then get a real job. Don't try to
    master a dozen subjects before getting a job.

    > I have dabbled with VB 6.0, making only small basic stand
    > alone programs and some forms interfacing with ACCESS (XP
    > version) (over a year ago). I have written basic PERL and
    > PHP applications that interface with MySQL. I have NO
    > budget for books and lost access to the net for over a
    > year. I have only done scribble with Visual C++ 6.0.


    I don't understand. A good certification book is usually around $35 at
    amazon (a single tank of gas costs me around $17 - 2 tanks of gas and I
    can buy a cert book). And dial-up internet access is cheap - I pay $11
    per month. Are you in the US? Most libraries have computers and
    internet connections for use by the public.

    I do understand financial hardship, but the term "investing in your
    future" might be something to consider. Is it smart to let someone else
    determine your future?

    > In short, no business production environment experience
    > at all with these products, is it realistic to expect to
    > achieve MCSD certification with a CBT with this
    > background?


    This is where you are seeing the light, but you're too close to
    understand what you're looking at. It's just plain wrong to invest
    multiple manhours trying to learn a dozen subjects. You should focus
    more on a subset, and learn it well. But, you might also need to
    relocate to get a job. And you will have to accept a low salary at
    first.

    Also important: learn how to do well in an interview. Tell a company
    why they should hire you, and tell them you'll work cheap just to have
    the right to prove yourself.

    > And after getting all of these certifications, just how
    > helpful will they be without any prior experience or a
    > college degree given my background?


    Too many certs and no experience makes you look bad. You can't possibly
    master all these subjects without practical work experience. People
    will think there's a disconnect when they view your resume, and it will
    go in the garbage. That's what I would do with it (please don't
    consider this to be a personal slam - I'm trying to help you).

    > And lastly opinions on CBT's, and the quality of CBT
    > vendors.


    LearnKey is great.

    Eric
     
    Eric, May 28, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. >> I am mainframe COBOL/CICS/VSAM programmer with no college
    >> degree,


    >I started this way, too.


    A degree, helps get you started after that, it mean very little. Proof
    can be seen with you two (and others)

    I used Cobol as well... a lot of Cobol!

    >The biggest challenge for you is to learn about OOP. It's critical that
    >you understand the "whys" and the big picture of it. Simply
    >understanding how to code a class and use it isn't enough.


    I can't see how learning oo concepts can be seen as a 'challenge'.
    People deal with objects every minute of their lives, it should real,
    why it's not is beyond me. Procedural concepts, now that's hard in
    today's IT world!!!

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, May 28, 2004
    #3
  4. UAError Guest

    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere <.> wrote:

    <snip>
    >I can't see how learning oo concepts can be seen as a 'challenge'.
    >People deal with objects every minute of their lives, it should real,
    >why it's not is beyond me.


    Dealing with objects is not the same as designing them -
    very few people actually create anything - if they create
    anything it usually just a variation of something they have
    already create before and usually based on instruction left
    by someone else. Creating new objects (classes in our lingo)
    was usually left to "inventors".

    Currently fledgeling developers experience OO through OO
    languages and OO frameworks - artefacts that (most of the
    time) model the computer domain not the business/problem
    domain. Often they will then come to the conclusion that any
    OO-model should more closely reflect the solution domain and
    not the problem domain - which tends to create systems that
    do not tolerate change in the business/problem domain very
    well.

    Many of their mentors may be prone to the view that objects
    are just records/data structures with associated functions
    which is a common (mis)conception among individuals educated
    during the structured design era - which doesn't help.

    And look at the impact that ADO.NET (an OO framework) can
    have on some designs, especially because of the "seamless"
    integration of the dataset with the data grid, repeater
    control and data list.

    ADO.NET "objectifies" the concepts of dealing with an RDBMS
    or any other data source! This is useful in the data access
    layer - but strictly speaking no data set should ever leave
    this layer. Above the DAL you should only see collections of
    business objects as it is the responsibility of the DAL to
    bridge the RDBMS to OO chasm and realize (and later
    serialize) the business objects. No visible RDBMS concept
    should be promoted into the business logic, let alone the
    user services layer.

    But that is exactly what happens because of the data
    set/data grid integration. Yes, you can integrate your own
    business object collections but few go through the extra
    effort.

    Now strictly typed datasets are fine - but they cannot
    contain business logic - and therefore they cannot act as
    collections of real business objects.

    Meanwhile developers using VB.NET/C#, and the .NET framework
    happily use the dataset (an RDBMS concept) in every layer
    (data access, business logic, and user services layer) and
    declare that they are creating object-oriented applications!

    So it seems to me there are plenty of places to get lost...

    >Procedural concepts, now that's hard in
    >today's IT world!!!
    >
    >Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    UAError, May 28, 2004
    #4
  5. Moe Guest

    Hey buddy...

    Your post caught my eye 'cause I used to do a lot of
    COBOL/CICS/VSAM stuff myself. I'm happy to say that I've
    managed to make the transition to .NET - 4 for 5 on my
    MCSD right now and I'm also doing .NET work on the job.

    While some of the responses you've gotten seem pretty
    tangental to your concerns, I gotta agree with a lot of
    the things Eric says. First, I can't quite see why
    you're devoting a lot of time to network admin certs and
    all that - unless that's what you want. If doing .NET
    development is really what you want to do, then you
    oughta get on with it.

    I think you're telling us that these Voc-rehab people
    won't get you MCSD training unless you do a lot of
    network and security stuff first. Do you really think
    getting a few CBT courses from these people is going to
    be worth paying all those dues? If you want to get
    certified in LAN administration and all that - and get
    work in that area, that's cool - you should do that. But
    if you want to do development, don't let these people get
    you off course.

    It's true - getting certified doesn't have to cost a lot
    of money. Whether you do CBT courses - or classes - or
    you just sit your butt down and learn what the stuff,
    it's going to cost you a lot more TIME than money. It's
    about understanding these technologies they call .NET and
    not just regurgitating a bunch of facts you learn in a
    classroom. You'll need a decent PC, internet access
    (gotta read MSDN!), and a few books. But the big
    investment you make will be the time it takes to get a
    conceptual understanding of things - and then fill in
    some details.

    Is a certification really going to help you get work?
    That's a tough question. Given your level of experience,
    the fact that you've been unable to find work in 2 1/2
    years raises makes me wonder. Possibly you live in an
    area where there aren't a lot of tech jobs...maybe you're
    just not marketing yourself effectively...I don't know.
    Seems like there's other things to figure out before you
    even begin to worry about getting certified.

    I can guarantee one thing: A glossy piece of paper with
    a fake Bill Gates signature on it is not going to change
    everything.





    >-----Original Message-----
    >I am mainframe COBOL/CICS/VSAM programmer with no

    college
    >degree, only certifications in mainframe Computer
    >Operations ('82') and Computer Programming ('89'). Seven
    >years experience in operations, 12 years in programming,
    >with the last six as a consultant. In both operations

    and
    >programming I caught on fast and rose quickly, was very
    >good technically but never had aspirations for

    management
    >(could manage projects, couldn't deal with micro
    >management by upper management with political agendas
    >related to cross and/or interdepartmental squabbling).

    My
    >last contract ended in September of 2001, although I

    have
    >good references, I have not found a job since then.
    >
    >Currently working with Voc-Rehab and starting CBT

    courses
    >to get certified in Network+, Security+, MCSE (70-210,

    70-
    >215, 70-216, 70-217, 70-219, 70-220, 70-221, 70-292 and
    >70-296) and Cisco CCNA.
    >
    >Upon successful certification they would be will to
    >sponsor .NET CBT to earn training to pass MCSD as well

    as
    >training for MCDBA, J2SE, JSEE. The CBT vendor we are
    >starting with is LearnKey.
    >
    >I have dabbled with VB 6.0, making only small basic

    stand
    >alone programs and some forms interfacing with ACCESS

    (XP
    >version) (over a year ago). I have written basic PERL

    and
    >PHP applications that interface with MySQL. I have NO
    >budget for books and lost access to the net for over a
    >year. I have only done scribble with Visual C++ 6.0.
    >
    >In short, no business production environment experience
    >at all with these products, is it realistic to expect to
    >achieve MCSD certification with a CBT with this
    >background?
    >
    >And after getting all of these certifications, just how
    >helpful will they be without any prior experience or a
    >college degree given my background?
    >
    >And lastly opinions on CBT's, and the quality of CBT
    >vendors.
    >
    >.
    >
     
    Moe, May 29, 2004
    #5
  6. >artefacts that (most of the
    >time) model the computer domain not the business/problem
    >domain. Often they will then come to the conclusion that any
    >OO-model should more closely reflect the solution domain and
    >not the problem domain - which tends to create systems that
    >do not tolerate change in the business/problem domain very
    >well.


    Which wrong, plain and simple.

    Software should model the business, and like the business, be able to
    react quickly and efficiently to change.

    The beauty of the object oriented development process is that the
    transitions through the various stages of the process, are simple and
    well defined. Errors are more easily identified and more quickly
    resolved. The end result is a solution which represents the business
    problem in the computer world, which as far as a user/customer is
    concerned, are the same.

    >Many of their mentors may be prone to the view that objects
    >are just records/data structures with associated functions
    >which is a common (mis)conception among individuals educated
    >during the structured design era - which doesn't help.


    Which again is wrong, plain and simple.

    Yet it is very easy to talk to users/customers in oo speak, because
    objects ultimately represent real world things which people can relate
    too, which was the point of my earlier remark.

    >No visible RDBMS concept
    >should be promoted into the business logic, let alone the
    >user services layer.


    As it should be.

    BTW, it's good to read your comment's and view's which people should
    take notice of.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, May 29, 2004
    #6
  7. >And after getting all of these certifications, just how
    >helpful will they be without any prior experience or a
    >college degree given my background?


    Much could also depend on your business knowledge, which is far harder
    to obtain than learning a computer language. I would assume you have
    picked up quite a bit in your years in the profession.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, May 29, 2004
    #7
  8. >First, I can't quite see why
    >you're devoting a lot of time to network admin certs and
    >all that - unless that's what you want. If doing .NET
    >development is really what you want to do, then you
    >oughta get on with it.


    I could not do my job without having a good understanding of
    networking concepts which include security, transport infrastructure,
    performance issues, geographical issues, etc, etc. Software engineers
    have always needed to understand more than simply how to churn out
    code, this is even more so in today's IT world.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, May 29, 2004
    #8
  9. Moe Guest

    Very true. But I still question the value in taking the
    time to get certified in those areas if the ultimate
    objective is getting work in development.

    Let's face it. There's sort of an "overhead" involved in
    taking and passing the tests that's somewhat incidental
    to any real learning process. You have to try to get hip
    to what the exam is going to focus on - probably run
    through some practice tests, etc. (I know you don't
    approve, Kline - spare us - OK?). That's all time that
    could be spent learning something important.


    >-----Original Message-----
    >>First, I can't quite see why
    >>you're devoting a lot of time to network admin certs

    and
    >>all that - unless that's what you want. If doing .NET
    >>development is really what you want to do, then you
    >>oughta get on with it.

    >
    >I could not do my job without having a good

    understanding of
    >networking concepts which include security, transport

    infrastructure,
    >performance issues, geographical issues, etc, etc.

    Software engineers
    >have always needed to understand more than simply how to

    churn out
    >code, this is even more so in today's IT world.
    >
    >Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    >.
    >
     
    Moe, May 29, 2004
    #9
  10. >Very true. But I still question the value in taking the
    >time to get certified in those areas if the ultimate
    >objective is getting work in development.


    The value is in gaining knowledge and understanding. In the case of
    the ms certification, it may well be incidental, but the knowledge
    gained will be of benefit on a number of occasions within the working
    environment.

    >Let's face it. There's sort of an "overhead" involved in
    >taking and passing the tests that's somewhat incidental
    >to any real learning process. You have to try to get hip
    >to what the exam is going to focus on - probably run
    >through some practice tests, etc.


    I can't see too much of an overhead, expect remembering to turn up for
    the exam!

    However, when people are preparing to take an exam, they seem to lack
    confidence in their ability, which is something that does not tend
    arise if the goal is simply to understand a new area of knowledge.

    >That's all time that
    >could be spent learning something important.


    Yes you do need focus on what you wish to achieve.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, May 29, 2004
    #10
  11. >I know you don't
    >approve, Kline - spare us - OK?


    Because of the simple format of the exams, 'practice' tests are used
    by many people because of how close the questions (and thus the
    answers) are to the real exam. As such, people are able to memorize
    the essence of the answers, without understanding the questions, to me
    that is not learning.

    If the 'practice' test provider gave the questions and links to
    resources where the answers could be found, but NOT the actual
    answers, that would make sense to me. The taker of the practice test
    would have to work harder to get the most out of the practice test
    (learning), and would submit the answered questions to the practice
    test provider, who would mark it (electronically) and send to score
    back , but again, NOT the answers. This is a TRUE practice test, as
    this is almost what happens on the real test.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, May 29, 2004
    #11
  12. Guest Guest

    I have to say....
    Always a pleasure to read you.
    Thanks UAError.


    >-----Original Message-----
    >The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere <.> wrote:
    >
    ><snip>
    >>I can't see how learning oo concepts can be seen as

    a 'challenge'.
    >>People deal with objects every minute of their lives,

    it should real,
    >>why it's not is beyond me.

    >
    >Dealing with objects is not the same as designing them -
    >very few people actually create anything - if they create
    >anything it usually just a variation of something they

    have
    >already create before and usually based on instruction

    left
    >by someone else. Creating new objects (classes in our

    lingo)
    >was usually left to "inventors".
    >
    >Currently fledgeling developers experience OO through OO
    >languages and OO frameworks - artefacts that (most of the
    >time) model the computer domain not the business/problem
    >domain. Often they will then come to the conclusion that

    any
    >OO-model should more closely reflect the solution domain

    and
    >not the problem domain - which tends to create systems

    that
    >do not tolerate change in the business/problem domain

    very
    >well.
    >
    >Many of their mentors may be prone to the view that

    objects
    >are just records/data structures with associated

    functions
    >which is a common (mis)conception among individuals

    educated
    >during the structured design era - which doesn't help.
    >
    >And look at the impact that ADO.NET (an OO framework) can
    >have on some designs, especially because of

    the "seamless"
    >integration of the dataset with the data grid, repeater
    >control and data list.
    >
    >ADO.NET "objectifies" the concepts of dealing with an

    RDBMS
    >or any other data source! This is useful in the data

    access
    >layer - but strictly speaking no data set should ever

    leave
    >this layer. Above the DAL you should only see

    collections of
    >business objects as it is the responsibility of the DAL

    to
    >bridge the RDBMS to OO chasm and realize (and later
    >serialize) the business objects. No visible RDBMS concept
    >should be promoted into the business logic, let alone the
    >user services layer.
    >
    >But that is exactly what happens because of the data
    >set/data grid integration. Yes, you can integrate your

    own
    >business object collections but few go through the extra
    >effort.
    >
    >Now strictly typed datasets are fine - but they cannot
    >contain business logic - and therefore they cannot act as
    >collections of real business objects.
    >
    >Meanwhile developers using VB.NET/C#, and the .NET

    framework
    >happily use the dataset (an RDBMS concept) in every layer
    >(data access, business logic, and user services layer)

    and
    >declare that they are creating object-oriented

    applications!
    >
    >So it seems to me there are plenty of places to get

    lost...
    >
    >>Procedural concepts, now that's hard in
    >>today's IT world!!!
    >>
    >>Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

    >
    >.
    >
     
    Guest, May 30, 2004
    #12
  13. mad dog Guest

    I would like to thank you all for your comments, they are
    helpful. I do wish I had not used my email address
    though, some idiot thinks he can actually get a virus
    through and has been trying since the time of the post.

    Kline pretty much hit the nail on the head with;
    "I could not do my job without having a good
    understanding of
    networking concepts which include security, transport
    infrastructure,
    performance issues, geographical issues, etc, etc.
    Software engineers
    have always needed to understand more than simply how to
    churn out
    code, this is even more so in today's IT world."

    I am in a rural area and was also caught in a bad
    personal situation on top of a lot of other issues and
    the economy. (Sorry if I sound like Edipus).

    I know of several companies that have spent millions on
    garbage, because they were sold what they wanted to hear.
    One company in particular has had a revolving door of
    outside vendors for an insurance replacement system since
    1998. They refuse to train their own people in new
    technology, they think they are going to save a buck,
    hire "Inexpensive Consulting Companies", and after a
    couple of years have nothing. They boot these
    consultants, find new ones, and start the cycle all over
    again. They are on their third such company. Each company
    walks away with millions and business knowledge they can
    apply to their next victim (They will produce,
    eventually). The employees are not U.S. citizens. So
    basically, everyone is paying top dollar to train someone
    from another country because senior staff thinks they
    will save a buck. (I have wondered how often this
    scenario is repeated).

    I have an awful lot of the basic pieces, lack anything
    more than home networking, seeking to fill in as much of
    the empty spaces as possible (and practice, practice,
    practice). Last billing rate was $70 hr., I would be
    happy with $10, minimum wage if necessary, just to have a
    place to practice and build skills as well as learn
    technique in a large business environment (although I
    have not closed myself off to smaller firms). Have been
    willing to relocate anywhere in the US, actually
    interviewed for a position in London in 2002. If I didn't
    find myself in the position I am in, I wouldn't believe
    it possible. Just call me mad dog...

    >-----Original Message-----
    >>First, I can't quite see why
    >>you're devoting a lot of time to network admin certs

    and
    >>all that - unless that's what you want. If doing .NET
    >>development is really what you want to do, then you
    >>oughta get on with it.

    >
    >I could not do my job without having a good

    understanding of
    >networking concepts which include security, transport

    infrastructure,
    >performance issues, geographical issues, etc, etc.

    Software engineers
    >have always needed to understand more than simply how to

    churn out
    >code, this is even more so in today's IT world.
    >
    >Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    >.
    >
     
    mad dog, May 31, 2004
    #13
  14. JaR Guest

    On Mon, 31 May 2004 14:50:15 -0700, mad dog extemporised:

    > I would like to thank you all for your comments, they are
    > helpful. I do wish I had not used my email address
    > though, some idiot thinks he can actually get a virus
    > through and has been trying since the time of the post.
    >


    Your part right about the idiot.

    It's a bot that harvests addys off usenet. Spammers use the worms to
    hijack machines to spew their garbage for them. You'd be surprised how
    many fools can't resist opening them.

    Eddiepox?

    JaR
    AV Thug
     
    JaR, Jun 1, 2004
    #14
  15. >You'd be surprised how
    >many fools can't resist opening them.


    .... and even more surprised how many of those fools are IT
    'professionals'.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jun 1, 2004
    #15
  16. Guest Guest

    Is retirement an option?

    "" <> wrote in
    message news:13aec01c44410$a509b9a0$...
    > I am mainframe COBOL/CICS/VSAM programmer with no college
    > degree, only certifications in mainframe Computer
    > Operations ('82') and Computer Programming ('89'). Seven
    > years experience in operations, 12 years in programming,
    > with the last six as a consultant. In both operations and
    > programming I caught on fast and rose quickly, was very
    > good technically but never had aspirations for management
    > (could manage projects, couldn't deal with micro
    > management by upper management with political agendas
    > related to cross and/or interdepartmental squabbling). My
    > last contract ended in September of 2001, although I have
    > good references, I have not found a job since then.
    >
    > Currently working with Voc-Rehab and starting CBT courses
    > to get certified in Network+, Security+, MCSE (70-210, 70-
    > 215, 70-216, 70-217, 70-219, 70-220, 70-221, 70-292 and
    > 70-296) and Cisco CCNA.
    >
    > Upon successful certification they would be will to
    > sponsor .NET CBT to earn training to pass MCSD as well as
    > training for MCDBA, J2SE, JSEE. The CBT vendor we are
    > starting with is LearnKey.
    >
    > I have dabbled with VB 6.0, making only small basic stand
    > alone programs and some forms interfacing with ACCESS (XP
    > version) (over a year ago). I have written basic PERL and
    > PHP applications that interface with MySQL. I have NO
    > budget for books and lost access to the net for over a
    > year. I have only done scribble with Visual C++ 6.0.
    >
    > In short, no business production environment experience
    > at all with these products, is it realistic to expect to
    > achieve MCSD certification with a CBT with this
    > background?
    >
    > And after getting all of these certifications, just how
    > helpful will they be without any prior experience or a
    > college degree given my background?
    >
    > And lastly opinions on CBT's, and the quality of CBT
    > vendors.
    >
     
    Guest, Jun 4, 2004
    #16
  17. >I know of several companies that have spent millions on
    >garbage, because they were sold what they wanted to hear.
    >One company in particular has had a revolving door of
    >outside vendors for an insurance replacement system since
    >1998. They refuse to train their own people in new
    >technology, they think they are going to save a buck,
    >hire "Inexpensive Consulting Companies", and after a
    >couple of years have nothing. They boot these
    >consultants, find new ones, and start the cycle all over
    >again. They are on their third such company. Each company
    >walks away with millions and business knowledge they can
    >apply to their next victim (They will produce,
    >eventually). The employees are not U.S. citizens. So
    >basically, everyone is paying top dollar to train someone
    >from another country because senior staff thinks they
    >will save a buck. (I have wondered how often this
    >scenario is repeated).


    This is seen all too common and what makes it even more sad is that
    there is absolutely no need whatsoever for these situations to be so.
    These situations are born completely out ignorance, incompetence,
    stupidity and laziness and 'should' have no place in IT.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jun 5, 2004
    #17
  18. >I have an awful lot of the basic pieces, lack anything
    >more than home networking, seeking to fill in as much of
    >the empty spaces as possible (and practice, practice,
    >practice). Last billing rate was $70 hr., I would be
    >happy with $10, minimum wage if necessary, just to have a
    >place to practice and build skills as well as learn
    >technique in a large business environment (although I
    >have not closed myself off to smaller firms). Have been
    >willing to relocate anywhere in the US, actually
    >interviewed for a position in London in 2002. If I didn't
    >find myself in the position I am in, I wouldn't believe
    >it possible.


    Hope things turn around real soon.

    Good luck Mad Dog.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jun 5, 2004
    #18
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