trademe user annoyances.

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Bruce Sinclair, Jul 20, 2005.

  1. Bruce Sinclair

    PC Guest

    "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Dont you just hate it when you make a bid, it reaches reserve, someone out
    > bids you, you go out to lunch and buy the same product new, and then they
    > seller removes the top bidder making you the top bidder, and the seller
    > refuses to remove your bid.
    >
    > Grrr, I hate trademe users.
    >
    > (and yes, I realise I'm one of them)
    >
    > --
    > http://dave.net.nz <- My personal site.
    > http://synaptic.net.nz <- Dunedin Based IT and ISP services



    Dave

    Not sure how regular Auctions rules apply to online Auctions but:

    As I understand it the 'Underbidder' (you in this case) has every right to
    accept "OR DECLINE" once an Overbidders offer has been declined, withdrawn
    or refused.
    I believe this is to thwart the 'phantom' bidder others have alluded to
    pushing the price up beyond what the price would have naturally been.

    One only has to remember the furore created when the Real Estate program on
    TV a while ago revealed 'phantom bids' occuring during house auctions. While
    the Real Estate industry stuck their collective heads in their self
    interested sand, every one else condemned this 'reprehensible' practice out
    of hand.

    Put another way 'bidding' at an auction is buying the right to complete a
    contract with the vendor at a minimum value, once someone outbids you, you
    have lost the right to complete the contract with the vendor.

    Some may argue the vendor retains the right to decline what may be a
    suspect, false or dubious bid, fair enough.
    I would however argue that the posting of the 'bid' on the page gives notice
    the vendor is satisfied the bid is 'legitimate'

    If you think about a real live 'human' Auction, the Auctioneer will either
    accept or reject any 'bid' at the time it is made. If the Auctioneer accepts
    the bid the underbidders liabilty to complete the contract (to buy the
    autioned item) ceases forthwith, and reverts to the underbidders right to
    accept or decline as I stated before.
    If on the other hand the Auctioneer declines a bid, the previously highest
    bidder knows immediately they are still the 'top' bidder and legally bound
    to complete the purchase.

    Perhaps it is time online auctions to channel all bids to the vendor first
    for their contractual acceptance before posting to the page.


    Just thinking.

    Cheers
    Paul.
     
    PC, Jul 20, 2005
    #21
    1. Advertising

  2. thingy wrote:
    > Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >
    >> In article <42ddc153$>, Richard <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> ardz wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> The seller cant refuse to remove your bid if the auction is running.
    >>>> If they
    >>>> dont have enough feedback they can get Trademe to remove it for them.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> What he is saying is that he took other action because the bidding
    >>> got past
    >>> what he was prepaired to pay (Probarbly got to more then retail) - so
    >>> he didnt increse his bid to become the lead bidder again. The seller
    >>> removed the top bidder reinstating his bid as the winning bid

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> I would tell the seller I saw I was second and went and got one. If
    >> the seller thought it clever to leave me as the top bid, he should not
    >> be surprised when I didn't pay for the thing I had already told him I
    >> did not want :)
    >>
    >> Bruce
    >>
    >> ----------------------------------------
    >> I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the
    >> good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are,
    >> always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.
    >>
    >> Lord Vetinari in Guards ! Guards ! - Terry Pratchett
    >>
    >> Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups (if
    >> there were any)
    >>

    >
    >
    > Are you sure somone was not trying to rip you off?
    >
    > Like have a mate force up the price then withdraw him when you would not
    > go any further?
    >
    > If it was me i'd say I had assumed i had lost so went elsewhere, it is
    > simply to late.


    I did... incidentaly I got outbid again... so not an issue unless the
    bid gets removed.

    --
    http://dave.net.nz <- My personal site.
    http://synaptic.net.nz <- Dunedin Based IT and ISP services
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 20, 2005
    #22
    1. Advertising

  3. thingy wrote:
    >> Dont you just hate it when you make a bid, it reaches reserve, someone
    >> out bids you, you go out to lunch and buy the same product new, and
    >> then they seller removes the top bidder making you the top bidder, and
    >> the seller refuses to remove your bid.


    > So he removed one but not you? wlak away IMHO.


    I got outbid... I stopped at $205, which was a fair price, and it sold
    for $435(new they are ~$450)

    --
    http://dave.net.nz <- My personal site.
    http://synaptic.net.nz <- Dunedin Based IT and ISP services
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 20, 2005
    #23
  4. Brian wrote:
    >>Dont you just hate it when you make a bid, it reaches reserve, someone
    >>out bids you, you go out to lunch and buy the same product new, and then
    >>they seller removes the top bidder making you the top bidder, and the
    >>seller refuses to remove your bid.


    > You have received a lot of responses to this thread. How about
    > telling us the Auction number so we can have a look for ourselves, and
    > offer you more informed comment ?


    http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auction_detail.asp?id=31410150

    my bid was removed, although there was little need for it in the end,
    the bidding went so close to the new price, it was just stupid.

    My bid was still leading until 9pm last night, so they took their time
    removing it.

    --
    http://dave.net.nz <- My personal site.
    http://synaptic.net.nz <- Dunedin Based IT and ISP services
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 20, 2005
    #24
  5. In article <42ddc0b4$>, "mountain" <> wrote:
    >"Bruce Sinclair" <> wrote
    >in message news:RBiDe.1857$...
    >> In article <>, "Dave - Dave.net.nz"

    ><> wrote:
    >> >Dont you just hate it when you make a bid, it reaches reserve, someone
    >> >out bids you, you go out to lunch and buy the same product new, and then
    >> >they seller removes the top bidder making you the top bidder, and the
    >> >seller refuses to remove your bid.
    >> >
    >> >Grrr, I hate trademe users.
    >> >
    >> >(and yes, I realise I'm one of them)

    >>
    >> That would be the sellers problem. Once you are no longer the top bidder,
    >> you can't reasonably be expected to buy anything ... surely ?
    >> What is otherwise to stop the seller from removing the top 5 (or any

    >number)
    >> of bids ? Doesn't make sense to me :)


    >That sounds like the sort of thing you would do if you were phantom bidding,
    >that way the seller can maximize his phantom bids and still have the real
    >bidder win, sounds dodgy to me.


    Agreed. That's why it must not be allowed to work :)

    Bruce

    ----------------------------------------
    I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good
    people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and
    only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.

    Lord Vetinari in Guards ! Guards ! - Terry Pratchett

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, Jul 20, 2005
    #25
  6. In article <42ddff09$>, Richard <> wrote:
    >Roger_Nickel wrote:
    >> That would be analagous to the situation in a physical auction room if a
    >> bid
    >> were withdrawn. Good luck getting your bids accepted in a real auction
    >> room if
    >> you make a habit of withdrawing bids. Trademe needs a method for vendors
    >> to give
    >> bidders bad feedback for cancelling a bid; after all, bidders do click
    >> through a
    >> warning that they are about to make a legally binding offer before the
    >> bid is
    >> posted.

    >
    >I have only asked to have a bit removed once, and that was when the seller
    >answered a question that the goods were clearly not as they had described them.


    Yes. To be fair, there are times when removing a bid can and should happen.
    That said, the next bidder ought ot have a say as to whether their bid will
    now stand or not.


    Bruce

    ----------------------------------------
    I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good
    people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and
    only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.

    Lord Vetinari in Guards ! Guards ! - Terry Pratchett

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, Jul 20, 2005
    #26
  7. In article <9QpDe.1942$>, "PC" <> wrote:
    >"Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> Dont you just hate it when you make a bid, it reaches reserve, someone out
    >> bids you, you go out to lunch and buy the same product new, and then they
    >> seller removes the top bidder making you the top bidder, and the seller
    >> refuses to remove your bid.
    >>
    >> Grrr, I hate trademe users.
    >>
    >> (and yes, I realise I'm one of them)

    >
    >Not sure how regular Auctions rules apply to online Auctions but:
    >
    >As I understand it the 'Underbidder' (you in this case) has every right to
    >accept "OR DECLINE" once an Overbidders offer has been declined, withdrawn
    >or refused.
    >I believe this is to thwart the 'phantom' bidder others have alluded to
    >pushing the price up beyond what the price would have naturally been.
    >
    >One only has to remember the furore created when the Real Estate program on
    >TV a while ago revealed 'phantom bids' occuring during house auctions. While
    >the Real Estate industry stuck their collective heads in their self
    >interested sand, every one else condemned this 'reprehensible' practice out
    >of hand.


    Yeah I remember seeing that. The thought at the time was that it as
    "ethical" up until the reserve was met IIRC, but not after that.

    Bruce

    ----------------------------------------
    I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good
    people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and
    only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.

    Lord Vetinari in Guards ! Guards ! - Terry Pratchett

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, Jul 20, 2005
    #27
  8. Bruce Sinclair

    Peter Grooby Guest


    > >That sounds like the sort of thing you would do if you were phantom bidding,
    > >that way the seller can maximize his phantom bids and still have the real
    > >bidder win, sounds dodgy to me.

    >
    > Agreed. That's why it must not be allowed to work :)
    >

    The way it should work, is that if someones bid is removed then all of
    their previous bids should be removed as well. Rolling back others bids
    to where they were before the person started.
    Can't see that it would be fair any other way.

    Pete

    --
    --
    Remove pants from email address to reply.
     
    Peter Grooby, Jul 21, 2005
    #28
  9. Bruce Sinclair

    thing2 Guest

    Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    > thingy wrote:
    >
    >>> Dont you just hate it when you make a bid, it reaches reserve,
    >>> someone out bids you, you go out to lunch and buy the same product
    >>> new, and then they seller removes the top bidder making you the top
    >>> bidder, and the seller refuses to remove your bid.

    >
    >
    >> So he removed one but not you? wlak away IMHO.

    >
    >
    > I got outbid... I stopped at $205, which was a fair price, and it sold
    > for $435(new they are ~$450)
    >


    aaaaaw!

    way too much....I'd buy new. I work off 60% of new....$435 plus postage?

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing2, Jul 21, 2005
    #29
  10. Bruce Sinclair

    Richard Guest

    Peter Grooby wrote:
    >>>That sounds like the sort of thing you would do if you were phantom bidding,
    >>>that way the seller can maximize his phantom bids and still have the real
    >>>bidder win, sounds dodgy to me.

    >>
    >>Agreed. That's why it must not be allowed to work :)
    >>

    >
    > The way it should work, is that if someones bid is removed then all of
    > their previous bids should be removed as well. Rolling back others bids
    > to where they were before the person started.
    > Can't see that it would be fair any other way.


    No, it should invalidate the whole auction if anything.

    Imagine if you were bidding at turners and after someone else outbids you on a
    car you walk away, only to be called up later to say they didnt go ahead with it
    so you now own the car?
     
    Richard, Jul 21, 2005
    #30
  11. thing2 wrote:
    >>>> Dont you just hate it when you make a bid, it reaches reserve,
    >>>> someone out bids you, you go out to lunch and buy the same product
    >>>> new, and then they seller removes the top bidder making you the top
    >>>> bidder, and the seller refuses to remove your bid.


    >>> So he removed one but not you? wlak away IMHO.


    >> I got outbid... I stopped at $205, which was a fair price, and it sold
    >> for $435(new they are ~$450)


    > aaaaaw!
    > way too much....I'd buy new. I work off 60% of new....$435 plus postage?


    yeah, me too, ~55-60% is about it for me.

    Incidentally I ran into a mate who read this, and he offered me his for
    $80... so I now have two.

    I have two cars, but I'm wondering if I should mount one in the back of
    the wagon and make it dual screened... dunno, no real need for it, might
    just keep one as a spare.

    --
    http://dave.net.nz <- My personal site.
    http://synaptic.net.nz <- Dunedin Based IT and ISP services
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 21, 2005
    #31
  12. Bruce Sinclair

    Peter Grooby Guest


    > >
    > > The way it should work, is that if someones bid is removed then all of
    > > their previous bids should be removed as well. Rolling back others bids
    > > to where they were before the person started.
    > > Can't see that it would be fair any other way.

    >
    > No, it should invalidate the whole auction if anything.
    >
    > Imagine if you were bidding at turners and after someone else outbids you on a
    > car you walk away, only to be called up later to say they didnt go ahead with it
    > so you now own the car?
    >

    There are two issues.
    One, removed bids leaving people the top bidders when they had been
    outbid.
    Two, phantom bidders driving up the price.

    If you are going to allow item one to happen, as appears is the case and
    is unlikely to change. then how to ensure fairness, with regard to item
    two, which is what I was addressing.

    A rollback would be impractical for a live auction but should be easy to
    implement in an online one.

    However like all things it too could be open to abuse I suppose, but not
    that which couldn't be used in the current system.
    Say there is a valuable item with a $1 reserve.
    Person A bids $2 then person B outbids them to a level that detracts any
    more bidders paying attention to the auction, then just before the
    auction ends person B retracts their bid, leaving A with a winning bid
    and the hope no-one notices before the auction closes.
    That could be done even under the current system, if person B bids high
    right at the start.

    Pete

    --
    --
    Remove pants from email address to reply.
     
    Peter Grooby, Jul 21, 2005
    #32
  13. Bruce Sinclair

    Roger_Nickel Guest

    Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    > In article <9QpDe.1942$>, "PC" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>> Dont you just hate it when you make a bid, it reaches reserve, someone
    >>> out bids you, you go out to lunch and buy the same product new, and then
    >>> they seller removes the top bidder making you the top bidder, and the
    >>> seller refuses to remove your bid.
    >>>
    >>> Grrr, I hate trademe users.
    >>>
    >>> (and yes, I realise I'm one of them)

    >>
    >> Not sure how regular Auctions rules apply to online Auctions but:
    >>
    >> As I understand it the 'Underbidder' (you in this case) has every right to
    >> accept "OR DECLINE" once an Overbidders offer has been declined, withdrawn
    >> or refused. I believe this is to thwart the 'phantom' bidder others have
    >> alluded to pushing the price up beyond what the price would have naturally
    >> been.
    >>
    >> One only has to remember the furore created when the Real Estate program on
    >> TV a while ago revealed 'phantom bids' occuring during house auctions.
    >> While the Real Estate industry stuck their collective heads in their self
    >> interested sand, every one else condemned this 'reprehensible' practice out
    >> of hand.

    >
    >
    > Yeah I remember seeing that. The thought at the time was that it as "ethical"
    > up until the reserve was met IIRC, but not after that.
    >
    > Bruce
    >


    >

    It's a fine line, auctioneers will often bid on their own account or on behalf
    of an absentee "right here, on the books, against you all". Vendor bidding is
    allowed but should be announced as such by the auctioneer (but is it always?).
    As far as the auctioneers are concerned, they still get paid if the vendor bids
    and is stuck with the property. Usually if a bid is withdrawn before the auction
    closes the auctioneer will restart the auction at the underbidders' offer and if
    necessary drop the price until someone bites. Auctioneers hate this, it disrupts
    the flow of the sale.
     
    Roger_Nickel, Jul 21, 2005
    #33
  14. Bruce Sinclair

    Scott Guest

    In a similar vain, am I missing something or is there no way to filter/view
    only the negative feedback on a user?

    I don't want ot scroll through pages of positives to find the negatives...
     
    Scott, Jul 21, 2005
    #34
  15. Bruce Sinclair

    Richard Guest

    Scott wrote:
    > In a similar vain, am I missing something or is there no way to filter/view
    > only the negative feedback on a user?
    >
    > I don't want ot scroll through pages of positives to find the negatives...


    most negatives I see are from people that use it to complain about something
    they shouldnt have bid on if they didnt understand it. I just look at the last
    months worth for anything to indicate they may be no good, and in actual fact I
    have had good trades with people that have 60% feedback scores, and bad trades
    with people on 98% so its not really a good indicator at all.

    Most ones I have had problems with are people that do not answer emails or fail
    to be at arranged meeting places and times.
     
    Richard, Jul 21, 2005
    #35
  16. Bruce Sinclair

    Gavin Tunney Guest

    On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:07:46 +1200, Roger_Nickel <>
    wrote:

    >Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >> In article <9QpDe.1942$>, "PC" <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>
    >>>> Dont you just hate it when you make a bid, it reaches reserve, someone
    >>>> out bids you, you go out to lunch and buy the same product new, and then
    >>>> they seller removes the top bidder making you the top bidder, and the
    >>>> seller refuses to remove your bid.
    >>>>
    >>>> Grrr, I hate trademe users.
    >>>>
    >>>> (and yes, I realise I'm one of them)
    >>>
    >>> Not sure how regular Auctions rules apply to online Auctions but:
    >>>
    >>> As I understand it the 'Underbidder' (you in this case) has every right to
    >>> accept "OR DECLINE" once an Overbidders offer has been declined, withdrawn
    >>> or refused. I believe this is to thwart the 'phantom' bidder others have
    >>> alluded to pushing the price up beyond what the price would have naturally
    >>> been.
    >>>
    >>> One only has to remember the furore created when the Real Estate program on
    >>> TV a while ago revealed 'phantom bids' occuring during house auctions.
    >>> While the Real Estate industry stuck their collective heads in their self
    >>> interested sand, every one else condemned this 'reprehensible' practice out
    >>> of hand.

    >>
    >>
    >> Yeah I remember seeing that. The thought at the time was that it as "ethical"
    >> up until the reserve was met IIRC, but not after that.
    >>
    >> Bruce
    >>

    >
    >>

    >It's a fine line, auctioneers will often bid on their own account or on behalf
    >of an absentee "right here, on the books, against you all". Vendor bidding is
    >allowed but should be announced as such by the auctioneer (but is it always?).
    >As far as the auctioneers are concerned, they still get paid if the vendor bids
    >and is stuck with the property. Usually if a bid is withdrawn before the auction
    >closes the auctioneer will restart the auction at the underbidders' offer and if
    >necessary drop the price until someone bites. Auctioneers hate this, it disrupts
    >the flow of the sale.


    The problem with auctions is there is no clearly defined 'auction' as
    such, the Auctioneers Act doesn't even say what an auction is. Shill
    bidding probably is illegal in most situations, but it would depend on
    the cirumstances

    When you pick up an auction bid card you'll notice the fine print says
    your bid is a binding contract; an offer to buy. Shill bids are
    obviously not genuine offers to buy, so there is strong evidence to
    suggest that they're in breach of trading laws at least. There is no
    law that specifically says shill bidding is illegal, but there is a
    law about false & misleading practices. If you're bound by the
    contract you signed when receiving a bidders card then it's reasonable
    to assume that all bidders are under the same contractual obligation.
    Shill bidders obviously aren't, their bid is not an offer to buy, so
    the bidders 'contract' could be said to be a false & misleading
    practice by auctioneers who allow shill bidding.

    The reality is that no-one in authority is interested in doing
    anything about it, so it's caveat emptor when attending auctions.
    House auctions are the biggest scam of all IMO.

    Btw vendors don't 'buy' when they win their own auction, in those
    cases they'll have a prior arrangement with the auctioneer and no
    money will change hands. Some auctioneers will 'vendor bid' up to the
    reserve just to get bidding going, they won't be buying the item for
    the vendor there though.

    Cheers

    Gavin
     
    Gavin Tunney, Jul 25, 2005
    #36
  17. Gavin Tunney wrote:
    >
    > Btw vendors don't 'buy' when they win their own auction, in those
    > cases they'll have a prior arrangement with the auctioneer and no
    > money will change hands. Some auctioneers will 'vendor bid' up to the
    > reserve just to get bidding going, they won't be buying the item for
    > the vendor there though.


    Though they do take the opportunity to leave themselves feedback so both
    accounts look like more legit traders!

    I saw a shill customer compliment his seller profile with "smooth
    operator". Indeed :)
     
    I'm a Trampoline, Jul 25, 2005
    #37
  18. Bruce Sinclair

    Gavin Tunney Guest

    On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:42:58 +1200, I'm a Trampoline
    <> wrote:

    >Gavin Tunney wrote:
    >>
    >> Btw vendors don't 'buy' when they win their own auction, in those
    >> cases they'll have a prior arrangement with the auctioneer and no
    >> money will change hands. Some auctioneers will 'vendor bid' up to the
    >> reserve just to get bidding going, they won't be buying the item for
    >> the vendor there though.

    >
    >Though they do take the opportunity to leave themselves feedback so both
    >accounts look like more legit traders!
    >
    >I saw a shill customer compliment his seller profile with "smooth
    >operator". Indeed :)


    I was referring to live auctions there, when you get the auctioneer
    bidding 'on behalf' of the vendor. In most cases the auctioneer isn't
    really bidding as such there, he's just getting bids up close to the
    reserve as there's no sale until reserve is reached. I'm a strong
    opponent of any form of shill bidding but that practice is usually ok
    with me because it saves time when bids are way below reserve... be
    there all day if the auctioneer doesn't get things moving.

    Trademe have always banned shill bidding, so have Ebay. It's just
    difficult to catch people at it so you see it quite often on both
    sites.

    GT
     
    Gavin Tunney, Jul 25, 2005
    #38
  19. In article <>,
    says...
    >
    > I was referring to live auctions there, when you get the auctioneer
    > bidding 'on behalf' of the vendor. In most cases the auctioneer isn't
    > really bidding as such there, he's just getting bids up close to the
    > reserve as there's no sale until reserve is reached. I'm a strong
    > opponent of any form of shill bidding but that practice is usually ok
    > with me because it saves time when bids are way below reserve... be
    > there all day if the auctioneer doesn't get things moving.
    >


    I've been on the other end of that. Auctioneer selling a truckload of
    cattle for me. And he was happily taking bids and after the knockdown he
    came to me and told me the cattle hadn't sold because he'd just been
    trying to bring the price up ...
    ... guess what: I could never trust that guy again. Whenever he was
    selling something, and I was bidding, I wasn't sure if I was bidding
    against somebody *real* or if I was being hustled.

    If the Auctioneer *DECLARES* at the beginning of the auction that he
    will be bidding on behalf of the vendor until the reserve is met (I have
    seen this, once), then I will wear it; but if it's not declared I
    consider it shady dealing, never mind what.

    cheers, -P.
     
    Peter Huebner, Jul 25, 2005
    #39
  20. Bruce Sinclair

    Gavin Tunney Guest

    On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:57:23 +1200, Peter Huebner
    <> wrote:

    >In article <>,
    > says...
    >>
    >> I was referring to live auctions there, when you get the auctioneer
    >> bidding 'on behalf' of the vendor. In most cases the auctioneer isn't
    >> really bidding as such there, he's just getting bids up close to the
    >> reserve as there's no sale until reserve is reached. I'm a strong
    >> opponent of any form of shill bidding but that practice is usually ok
    >> with me because it saves time when bids are way below reserve... be
    >> there all day if the auctioneer doesn't get things moving.
    >>

    >
    >I've been on the other end of that. Auctioneer selling a truckload of
    >cattle for me. And he was happily taking bids and after the knockdown he
    >came to me and told me the cattle hadn't sold because he'd just been
    >trying to bring the price up ...
    > ... guess what: I could never trust that guy again. Whenever he was
    >selling something, and I was bidding, I wasn't sure if I was bidding
    >against somebody *real* or if I was being hustled.
    >
    >If the Auctioneer *DECLARES* at the beginning of the auction that he
    >will be bidding on behalf of the vendor until the reserve is met (I have
    >seen this, once), then I will wear it; but if it's not declared I
    >consider it shady dealing, never mind what.
    >


    Agreed, there's a couple of auctioneers in Auck who do declare it &
    you can generally trust they're not trying to hustle....but you can
    only trust them so far. On the other hand there's plenty more who
    bring in fake bids just to push the price up, the only way you can
    tell they're doing it is if you're familiar with auctions & can spot
    what they're doing. Their body language usually gives them away, but
    you have to be pretty experienced to notice it.

    Without putting too fine a point on it, I can't say there's many
    auctioneers I consider trustworthy.....and I've been to a lot of
    auctions. I'd rarely put an absentee bid on an auction.

    If you have a look around at the various rules & regulations covering
    auctions, the one glaring omission is a written & binding procedure
    for running an auction. Even the Auctioneers Association don't have a
    set standard of practice in that regard, auctioneers are pretty much
    free to run their auction however they please... and a lot of them do.
    The auction industry has quietly gotten itself a bad rep over the last
    decade or so, and they've only themselves to blame.

    Cheers

    GT
     
    Gavin Tunney, Jul 25, 2005
    #40
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