Torrent and section 92A question

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lodi, Feb 17, 2009.

  1. Lodi

    Lodi Guest

    Hi all....I'm just wondering how an ISP would be able to tell that I'm
    specifically downloading (for example) the latest episode of Scrubs via
    torrent (not that I am) as opposed to downloading the latest version of
    Ubuntu via torrent.

    I've a limited understanding of how an ISP sniffs out a torrent but
    shouldn't a) using Tor when visiting a torrent website and b)
    choosing "protocol encryption" and "do not allow unencrypted connections"
    when downloading a torrent make it fairly difficult for the ISP to say that
    I'm specifically downloading Scrubs (not that I am).

    Agreed that the ISP can tell that I'm using p2p but I thought the crux of
    92A was that I'm downloading copywritten material without the owners
    permission, not simply using p2p. Anonymising my ip and encrypting the
    torrent protocol seems like a more obvious course of action than blackening
    my twitter avatar (how stupid is that :)

    Regards
    Lodi
     
    Lodi, Feb 17, 2009
    #1
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  2. Lodi

    Richard Guest

    Lodi wrote:
    > Hi all....I'm just wondering how an ISP would be able to tell that I'm
    > specifically downloading (for example) the latest episode of Scrubs via
    > torrent (not that I am) as opposed to downloading the latest version of
    > Ubuntu via torrent.
    >
    > I've a limited understanding of how an ISP sniffs out a torrent but
    > shouldn't a) using Tor when visiting a torrent website and b)
    > choosing "protocol encryption" and "do not allow unencrypted connections"
    > when downloading a torrent make it fairly difficult for the ISP to say that
    > I'm specifically downloading Scrubs (not that I am).
    >
    > Agreed that the ISP can tell that I'm using p2p but I thought the crux of
    > 92A was that I'm downloading copywritten material without the owners
    > permission, not simply using p2p. Anonymising my ip and encrypting the
    > torrent protocol seems like a more obvious course of action than blackening
    > my twitter avatar (how stupid is that :)


    They only have to act on complaints, not investigate themselves.
     
    Richard, Feb 17, 2009
    #2
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  3. In message <499a1f08$>, Puddle wrote:

    > How do the copyright holders tell? well when you use a torrent to
    > download stuff, you are giving away your IP, the tracker knows it and so
    > do the peers.


    Childishly easy to spoof <http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/06/study-
    paints-grim-picture-of-automated-dmca-notice-accuracy.ars>.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 17, 2009
    #3
  4. Lodi

    oneofus Guest

    Richard wrote:
    > Lodi wrote:
    >> Hi all....I'm just wondering how an ISP would be able to tell that I'm
    >> specifically downloading (for example) the latest episode of Scrubs via
    >> torrent (not that I am) as opposed to downloading the latest version of
    >> Ubuntu via torrent.
    >>
    >> I've a limited understanding of how an ISP sniffs out a torrent but
    >> shouldn't a) using Tor when visiting a torrent website and b)
    >> choosing "protocol encryption" and "do not allow unencrypted connections"
    >> when downloading a torrent make it fairly difficult for the ISP to say
    >> that
    >> I'm specifically downloading Scrubs (not that I am).
    >>
    >> Agreed that the ISP can tell that I'm using p2p but I thought the crux of
    >> 92A was that I'm downloading copywritten material without the owners
    >> permission, not simply using p2p. Anonymising my ip and encrypting the
    >> torrent protocol seems like a more obvious course of action than
    >> blackening
    >> my twitter avatar (how stupid is that :)

    >
    > They only have to act on complaints, not investigate themselves.


    So anyone with a website can put a copyright notice on it then send
    their log to a bunch of isps and **** up the entire isp biz in NZ

    Neat !!
     
    oneofus, Feb 17, 2009
    #4
  5. Lodi

    Lodi Guest

    >Puddle wrote:

    > How do the copyright holders tell? well when you use a torrent to
    > download stuff, you are giving away your IP, the tracker knows it and so
    > do the peers. The copyright holders keep an eye on popular torrents
    > such as ones from mininova, thepiratebay etc they then simply join those
    > torrents and collect IP's of those in the torrent. Easy stuff.


    Thanks Puddle. When you put it like that even a dimbo like me can
    understand.

    I guess I'll head back to the #tv groups of IRC just like in the pre-torrent
    days. Luckily I'm only interested in half a dozen tv shows. Movies and
    warez aren't my thing.

    Will be a shame if Actrix give me the boot cos they're an excellent ISP. I
    guess I'll end up playing musical chairs moving from ISP to ISP. It's a
    pity Sony/Warners/etc can't work out a decent business model.

    Where are all the ubergeek software writers when you need them. It's about
    time the mythical "anonymous p2p" became a reality.

    Regards
    Lodi
     
    Lodi, Feb 17, 2009
    #5
  6. Lodi

    oneofus Guest

    Lodi wrote:
    >> Puddle wrote:

    >
    >> How do the copyright holders tell? well when you use a torrent to
    >> download stuff, you are giving away your IP, the tracker knows it and so
    >> do the peers. The copyright holders keep an eye on popular torrents
    >> such as ones from mininova, thepiratebay etc they then simply join those
    >> torrents and collect IP's of those in the torrent. Easy stuff.

    >
    > Thanks Puddle. When you put it like that even a dimbo like me can
    > understand.
    >
    > I guess I'll head back to the #tv groups of IRC just like in the pre-torrent
    > days. Luckily I'm only interested in half a dozen tv shows. Movies and
    > warez aren't my thing.
    >
    > Will be a shame if Actrix give me the boot cos they're an excellent ISP. I
    > guess I'll end up playing musical chairs moving from ISP to ISP. It's a
    > pity Sony/Warners/etc can't work out a decent business model.
    >
    > Where are all the ubergeek software writers when you need them. It's about
    > time the mythical "anonymous p2p" became a reality.
    >
    > Regards
    > Lodi
    >
    >
    >

    Rule 1 of usenet.
    Oops
     
    oneofus, Feb 17, 2009
    #6
  7. Lodi

    Lodi Guest

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    >> In message <499a1f08$>, Puddle wrote:

    >
    >> How do the copyright holders tell? well when you use a torrent to
    >> download stuff, you are giving away your IP, the tracker knows it and so
    >> do the peers.

    >
    > Childishly easy to spoof
    > <http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/06/study-
    > paints-grim-picture-of-automated-dmca-notice-accuracy.ars>.


    Hello Lawrence.....Apologies for my dimness but after reading your link I'm
    none the wiser.

    The key phrase as I read it is......the researchers were able to "advertise
    our presence as a potential replica without uploading or downloading any
    file data whatsoever."

    So although the copyright holders were made to look like idiots at the end
    of day there's no actual episode of Scrubs downloaded. And the copyright
    owners still have my IP.

    The only "spoofing" mentioned is as an optional extra to some trackers. Or
    by a "specify a different IP address" in some bittorrent clients. (Anyone
    know what clients. I'm off to google to try and find out)

    Regards
    Lodi
     
    Lodi, Feb 17, 2009
    #7
  8. In message <gndefg$c6r$>, Lodi wrote:

    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    >
    >>> In message <499a1f08$>, Puddle wrote:

    >>
    >>> How do the copyright holders tell? well when you use a torrent to
    >>> download stuff, you are giving away your IP, the tracker knows it and so
    >>> do the peers.

    >>
    >> Childishly easy to spoof
    >> <http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/06/study-
    >> paints-grim-picture-of-automated-dmca-notice-accuracy.ars>.

    >
    > The key phrase as I read it is......the researchers were able to
    > "advertise our presence as a potential replica without uploading or
    > downloading any file data whatsoever."
    >
    > So although the copyright holders were made to look like idiots at the end
    > of day there's no actual episode of Scrubs downloaded. And the copyright
    > owners still have my IP.


    But they can't tell whether that IP actually uploaded/downloaded anything.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 17, 2009
    #8
  9. Lodi

    oneofus Guest

    Lodi wrote:
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    >
    >>> In message <499a1f08$>, Puddle wrote:
    >>> How do the copyright holders tell? well when you use a torrent to
    >>> download stuff, you are giving away your IP, the tracker knows it and so
    >>> do the peers.

    >> Childishly easy to spoof
    >> <http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/06/study-
    >> paints-grim-picture-of-automated-dmca-notice-accuracy.ars>.

    >
    > Hello Lawrence.....Apologies for my dimness but after reading your link I'm
    > none the wiser.
    >
    > The key phrase as I read it is......the researchers were able to "advertise
    > our presence as a potential replica without uploading or downloading any
    > file data whatsoever."
    >
    > So although the copyright holders were made to look like idiots at the end
    > of day there's no actual episode of Scrubs downloaded. And the copyright
    > owners still have my IP.
    >
    > The only "spoofing" mentioned is as an optional extra to some trackers. Or
    > by a "specify a different IP address" in some bittorrent clients. (Anyone
    > know what clients. I'm off to google to try and find out)
    >
    > Regards
    > Lodi


    Use a proxy
    http://www.your-freedom.net/index.php?id=128&L=8v
     
    oneofus, Feb 17, 2009
    #9
  10. Lodi

    oneofus Guest

    oneofus wrote:
    > Lodi wrote:
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    >>
    >>>> In message <499a1f08$>, Puddle wrote:
    >>>> How do the copyright holders tell? well when you use a torrent to
    >>>> download stuff, you are giving away your IP, the tracker knows it
    >>>> and so
    >>>> do the peers.
    >>> Childishly easy to spoof
    >>> <http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/06/study-
    >>> paints-grim-picture-of-automated-dmca-notice-accuracy.ars>.

    >>
    >> Hello Lawrence.....Apologies for my dimness but after reading your
    >> link I'm
    >> none the wiser.
    >>
    >> The key phrase as I read it is......the researchers were able to
    >> "advertise
    >> our presence as a potential replica without uploading or downloading any
    >> file data whatsoever."
    >>
    >> So although the copyright holders were made to look like idiots at the
    >> end
    >> of day there's no actual episode of Scrubs downloaded. And the copyright
    >> owners still have my IP.
    >>
    >> The only "spoofing" mentioned is as an optional extra to some
    >> trackers. Or
    >> by a "specify a different IP address" in some bittorrent clients. (Anyone
    >> know what clients. I'm off to google to try and find out)
    >>
    >> Regards
    >> Lodi

    >
    > Use a proxy
    > http://www.your-freedom.net/index.php?id=128&L=8v


    List of proxies
    http://www.samair.ru/proxy/proxy-01.htm
     
    oneofus, Feb 17, 2009
    #10
  11. Lodi

    oneofus Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message <gndefg$c6r$>, Lodi wrote:
    >
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>> In message <499a1f08$>, Puddle wrote:
    >>>> How do the copyright holders tell? well when you use a torrent to
    >>>> download stuff, you are giving away your IP, the tracker knows it and so
    >>>> do the peers.
    >>> Childishly easy to spoof
    >>> <http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/06/study-
    >>> paints-grim-picture-of-automated-dmca-notice-accuracy.ars>.

    >> The key phrase as I read it is......the researchers were able to
    >> "advertise our presence as a potential replica without uploading or
    >> downloading any file data whatsoever."
    >>
    >> So although the copyright holders were made to look like idiots at the end
    >> of day there's no actual episode of Scrubs downloaded. And the copyright
    >> owners still have my IP.

    >
    > But they can't tell whether that IP actually uploaded/downloaded anything.
    >


    Apparently the ISPs are going to cut you off regardless of that.
     
    oneofus, Feb 17, 2009
    #11
  12. Lodi

    Lodi Guest

    >oneofus wrote:

    >> oneofus wrote:


    >>
    >> Use a proxy
    >> http://www.your-freedom.net/index.php?id=128&L=8v

    >
    > List of proxies
    > http://www.samair.ru/proxy/proxy-01.htm



    Pretty sure that proxy servers are set up by governments. Possibly I'm
    talking out of my tin-foil hat but proxy equals honeypot in my (generally
    unpopular) opinion.

    Tor is the only anonymiser I'd trust purely because it's peer reviewed.
    Going to a website and downloading a "safe" list seems dodgy.

    Regards
    Lodi
     
    Lodi, Feb 17, 2009
    #12
  13. Lodi

    oneofus Guest

    Lodi wrote:
    >> oneofus wrote:

    >
    >>> oneofus wrote:

    >
    >>> Use a proxy
    >>> http://www.your-freedom.net/index.php?id=128&L=8v

    >> List of proxies
    >> http://www.samair.ru/proxy/proxy-01.htm

    >
    >
    > Pretty sure that proxy servers are set up by governments. Possibly I'm
    > talking out of my tin-foil hat


    yes, read the first link, I did you the courtesy of posting it.


    but proxy equals honeypot in my (generally
    > unpopular) opinion.
    >
    > Tor is the only anonymiser I'd trust purely because it's peer reviewed.
    > Going to a website and downloading a "safe" list seems dodgy.
    >
    > Regards
    > Lodi



    Please yourself
    <shrug>
     
    oneofus, Feb 17, 2009
    #13
  14. Lodi

    Lodi Guest

    >oneofus wrote:

    >> Lodi wrote:
    >>> oneofus wrote:

    >>
    >>>> oneofus wrote:

    >>
    >>>> Use a proxy
    >>>> http://www.your-freedom.net/index.php?id=128&L=8v
    >>> List of proxies
    >>> http://www.samair.ru/proxy/proxy-01.htm

    >>
    >>
    >> Pretty sure that proxy servers are set up by governments. Possibly I'm
    >> talking out of my tin-foil hat

    >
    > yes, read the first link, I did you the courtesy of posting it.
    >
    >
    > but proxy equals honeypot in my (generally
    >> unpopular) opinion.
    >>
    >> Tor is the only anonymiser I'd trust purely because it's peer reviewed.
    >> Going to a website and downloading a "safe" list seems dodgy.
    >>
    >> Regards
    >> Lodi

    >
    >
    > Please yourself
    > <shrug>


    No disrespect meant. I did read the links you posted. I believe I understand
    what's involved with proxies. I haven't read the entire YF User Guide but
    browsing the first twenty or so pages described a closed-source,
    p2p-crippled, soft-anon, pay-as-you-go system. Not the ideal solution to
    torrenting post-92A which was my original heading.

    And although it says the servers are privately owned *they* would say that
    They've still got my IP.

    Tor is my benchmark for anonymity and p2p isn't feasible through it. So I'm
    loath to trust a webpage with monkey-see monkey-do instructions which is
    what your first link is.

    As I see it the only counter to 92A is wardriving or sending a spoof IP to a
    tracker. I know how to do the former but won't. I don't know how to the
    latter but would like to learn.

    Thanks for your post.

    Regards
    Lodi
     
    Lodi, Feb 17, 2009
    #14
  15. Lodi

    oneofus Guest

    Lodi wrote:
    >> oneofus wrote:

    >
    >>> Lodi wrote:
    >>>> oneofus wrote:
    >>>>> oneofus wrote:
    >>>>> Use a proxy
    >>>>> http://www.your-freedom.net/index.php?id=128&L=8v
    >>>> List of proxies
    >>>> http://www.samair.ru/proxy/proxy-01.htm
    >>>
    >>> Pretty sure that proxy servers are set up by governments. Possibly I'm
    >>> talking out of my tin-foil hat

    >> yes, read the first link, I did you the courtesy of posting it.
    >>
    >>
    >> but proxy equals honeypot in my (generally
    >>> unpopular) opinion.
    >>>
    >>> Tor is the only anonymiser I'd trust purely because it's peer reviewed.
    >>> Going to a website and downloading a "safe" list seems dodgy.
    >>>
    >>> Regards
    >>> Lodi

    >>
    >> Please yourself
    >> <shrug>

    >
    > No disrespect meant. I did read the links you posted. I believe I understand
    > what's involved with proxies. I haven't read the entire YF User Guide but
    > browsing the first twenty or so pages described a closed-source,
    > p2p-crippled, soft-anon, pay-as-you-go system. Not the ideal solution to
    > torrenting post-92A which was my original heading.
    >
    > And although it says the servers are privately owned *they* would say that
    > They've still got my IP.
    >
    > Tor is my benchmark for anonymity and p2p isn't feasible through it. So I'm
    > loath to trust a webpage with monkey-see monkey-do instructions which is
    > what your first link is.
    >
    > As I see it the only counter to 92A is wardriving or sending a spoof IP to a
    > tracker. I know how to do the former but won't. I don't know how to the
    > latter but would like to learn.
    >
    > Thanks for your post.
    >
    > Regards
    > Lodi


    Using a proxy is the only way I can think of sending a spoof IP to the
    tracker which it sends to the other peers. I don't think any code is
    required.
    The torrent packets still have to get from the other peers to your real
    IP address, so the only way anonymizing can work would be by some third
    party NAT process in between.
    Most of the same content is available from commercial usenet services
    especially television programme torrents.
    And you can upload to usenet anonymously too
    In five years time CDs will still be obsolete and the music industry
    will still be down the tubes except where their content is freely
    available in some form. All the content ever uploaded will still be
    available through some automated proxy process which will just involve
    clicking an "I'm in NZ" tickbox. No advantage will have accrued to
    content providers.
    TV programme providers will have adopted a podcast model, with Akamai
    servers, and FTA channels will either be right up to date or lose their
    audience for first run series.
    But we will have paid extra for our isp services to go through the whole
    charade.
    Using copyright law like this will be as effective at stopping copyright
    infringement as obscenity laws have been in stopping porn
     
    oneofus, Feb 17, 2009
    #15
  16. Lodi

    Craig Sutton Guest

    "oneofus" <> wrote in message
    news:gndfbj$1nc$...
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >> In message <gndefg$c6r$>, Lodi wrote:
    >>
    >>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>> In message <499a1f08$>, Puddle wrote:
    >>>>> How do the copyright holders tell? well when you use a torrent to
    >>>>> download stuff, you are giving away your IP, the tracker knows it and
    >>>>> so
    >>>>> do the peers.
    >>>> Childishly easy to spoof
    >>>> <http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/06/study-
    >>>> paints-grim-picture-of-automated-dmca-notice-accuracy.ars>.
    >>> The key phrase as I read it is......the researchers were able to
    >>> "advertise our presence as a potential replica without uploading or
    >>> downloading any file data whatsoever."
    >>>
    >>> So although the copyright holders were made to look like idiots at the
    >>> end
    >>> of day there's no actual episode of Scrubs downloaded. And the copyright
    >>> owners still have my IP.

    >>
    >> But they can't tell whether that IP actually uploaded/downloaded
    >> anything.
    >>

    >
    > Apparently the ISPs are going to cut you off regardless of that.


    Still no law to say they can't reconnect you straight away after closing
    your account.
     
    Craig Sutton, Feb 17, 2009
    #16
  17. Lodi

    oneofus Guest

    Lodi wrote:
    >> oneofus wrote:

    >
    >>> Lodi wrote:
    >>>> oneofus wrote:
    >>>>> oneofus wrote:
    >>>>> Use a proxy
    >>>>> http://www.your-freedom.net/index.php?id=128&L=8v
    >>>> List of proxies
    >>>> http://www.samair.ru/proxy/proxy-01.htm
    >>>
    >>> Pretty sure that proxy servers are set up by governments. Possibly I'm
    >>> talking out of my tin-foil hat

    >> yes, read the first link, I did you the courtesy of posting it.
    >>
    >>
    >> but proxy equals honeypot in my (generally
    >>> unpopular) opinion.
    >>>
    >>> Tor is the only anonymiser I'd trust purely because it's peer reviewed.
    >>> Going to a website and downloading a "safe" list seems dodgy.
    >>>
    >>> Regards
    >>> Lodi

    >>
    >> Please yourself
    >> <shrug>

    >
    > No disrespect meant. I did read the links you posted. I believe I understand
    > what's involved with proxies. I haven't read the entire YF User Guide but
    > browsing the first twenty or so pages described a closed-source,
    > p2p-crippled, soft-anon, pay-as-you-go system. Not the ideal solution to
    > torrenting post-92A which was my original heading.
    >
    > And although it says the servers are privately owned *they* would say that
    > They've still got my IP.
    >
    > Tor is my benchmark for anonymity and p2p isn't feasible through it. So I'm
    > loath to trust a webpage with monkey-see monkey-do instructions which is
    > what your first link is.
    >
    > As I see it the only counter to 92A is wardriving or sending a spoof IP to a
    > tracker. I know how to do the former but won't. I don't know how to the
    > latter but would like to learn.
    >
    > Thanks for your post.
    >
    > Regards
    > Lodi


    Now you have piqued my interest, you might be interested in the IP
    blocklist approach.
    ..deb packages here, blocklists from peerguardian.
    http://moblock-deb.sourceforge.net/
     
    oneofus, Feb 17, 2009
    #17
  18. Lodi

    Alan Guest

    "Lodi" <> wrote in message
    news:gndng6$vo9$...
    >
    > Tor is my benchmark for anonymity and p2p isn't feasible through it.
    > So I'm
    > loath to trust a webpage with monkey-see monkey-do instructions
    > which is
    > what your first link is.
    >


    I haven't used TOR but I have heard about it.

    Why would it not be useable for P2P (or indeed any other type of use)?

    I understood it is a general purpose approach that doesn't care what
    goes through, but perhaps I misunderstand the technology?

    Thanks,

    --

    Alan.

    The views expressed are my own, and not those of my employer or anyone
    else associated with me.

    My current valid email address is:



    This is valid as is. It is not munged, or altered at all.

    It will be valid for AT LEAST one month from the date of this post.

    If you are trying to contact me after that time,
    it MAY still be valid, but may also have been
    deactivated due to spam. If so, and you want
    to contact me by email, try searching for a
    more recent post by me to find my current
    email address.

    The following is a (probably!) totally unique
    and meaningless string of characters that you
    can use to find posts by me in a search engine:

    ewygchvboocno43vb674b6nq46tvb
     
    Alan, Feb 17, 2009
    #18
  19. Lodi

    Lodi Guest

    > oneofus wrote:

    >
    > Using a proxy is the only way I can think of sending a spoof IP to the
    > tracker which it sends to the other peers. I don't think any code is
    > required.
    > The torrent packets still have to get from the other peers to your real
    > IP address, so the only way anonymizing can work would be by some third
    > party NAT process in between.


    Totally agree. But it's not right to involve a third party in
    my "wrongdoings". Or else I'd be leeching off my next door neighbour's
    wireless connection.

    > Most of the same content is available from commercial usenet services
    > especially television programme torrents.


    "Commercial" is the keyword. If I have to pay to watch Scrubs I'd prefer to
    pay the copyright holders of Scrubs and not giganews/easynews etc who are
    only hosting capped versions.

    As there's no option to pay the owners of Scrubs I think I'll just keep my
    money and go back to the IRC #tv groups as I mentioned in an earlier post
    (and was told Rule 1. I always thought Rule 1 meant show us a picture of
    your girlfriend with no clothes on. What's that got to do with Scrubs??)

    Thanks for the heads-up on moblock. Something I wasn't aware of and will
    spend the next few days trying to get my head around.

    Regards
    Lodi
     
    Lodi, Feb 17, 2009
    #19
  20. Lodi

    oneofus Guest

    Lodi wrote:
    >> oneofus wrote:

    >
    >> Using a proxy is the only way I can think of sending a spoof IP to the
    >> tracker which it sends to the other peers. I don't think any code is
    >> required.
    >> The torrent packets still have to get from the other peers to your real
    >> IP address, so the only way anonymizing can work would be by some third
    >> party NAT process in between.

    >
    > Totally agree. But it's not right to involve a third party in
    > my "wrongdoings". Or else I'd be leeching off my next door neighbour's
    > wireless connection.
    >


    The proxy is no different to your isp or any other router, its just
    protecting your privacy from unauthorized snoopers.
     
    oneofus, Feb 17, 2009
    #20
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    Google has its say on Section 92A

    Nik Coughlin, Mar 19, 2009, in forum: NZ Computing
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    453
    ~misfit~
    Mar 23, 2009
  5. victor

    Section 92a: The Pirates Will Always Win

    victor, Jun 7, 2009, in forum: NZ Computing
    Replies:
    22
    Views:
    857
    Gordon
    Jun 14, 2009
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