To "The Other Guy"

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Craig Whitmore, Apr 13, 2005.

  1. Hi there.

    Can you please email me directly ()

    Thanks
    Craig Whitmore, Apr 13, 2005
    #1
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  2. Craig Whitmore

    Mike_P Guest

    "Craig Whitmore" <> wrote in message
    news:425cae3e$...
    > Hi there.
    >
    > Can you please email me directly ()
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    >


    Tell them to remove 'all' the port shaping/throttling before you'll help
    them with their news server setup. :)

    Mike_P
    Mike_P, Apr 13, 2005
    #2
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  3. Mike_P wrote:
    > Tell them to remove 'all' the port shaping/throttling before you'll help
    > them with their news server setup. :)


    Haha, not a bad idea. Realistically, some sort of shaping is required
    otherwise the connection becomes unusable. Too much, or blindly rate
    limiting by port, is definitely a bad thing.

    ISPs should rate limit, but it should be based on the CIR/PIR... give
    every connection a 2Kbs^-1 CIR, 32kbs^-1 PIR, allocated from a total
    bandwith pool.

    Not being involved in ISP operations I'm not sure how well that would
    work in practice, or if it would scale from small business grade
    bandwidth pool to a large scale residential deployment. I know for
    example that PF under OpenBSD/FreeBSD is limited in precision by timing
    factors (quantum cycles, clock resolution etc.). Add to that the number
    of lookups necessary for determining which packets to send/queue/drop,
    and it is likely it just isn't technically feasible to do it that way.

    The Other Guy
    The Other Guy, Apr 13, 2005
    #3
  4. Craig Whitmore

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Mike_P wrote:
    > "Craig Whitmore" <> wrote in message
    > news:425cae3e$...
    >> Hi there.
    >>
    >> Can you please email me directly ()
    >>
    >> Thanks
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Tell them to remove 'all' the port shaping/throttling before you'll
    > help them with their news server setup. :)


    Are you one of the heavy users Mike?

    When I rang them yesterday and asked about traffic shaping and how it
    affects me they looked at my stats and told me that, no, I'm certainly not
    getting shaped anymore and I'm one of the customers that they want to keep.
    (Their words).

    I told them they ned to fix my latency problem if they want to keep me. I
    mainly use my connection for on-line gaming. I don't move a lot of data at
    all but what little i move needs to move fast(er).
    --
    ~misfit~
    ~misfit~, Apr 13, 2005
    #4
  5. The Other Guy wrote:
    >> Tell them to remove 'all' the port shaping/throttling before you'll
    >> help them with their news server setup. :)


    > Haha, not a bad idea. Realistically, some sort of shaping is required
    > otherwise the connection becomes unusable. Too much, or blindly rate
    > limiting by port, is definitely a bad thing.


    > ISPs should rate limit, but it should be based on the CIR/PIR... give
    > every connection a 2Kbs^-1 CIR, 32kbs^-1 PIR, allocated from a total
    > bandwith pool.


    > I know for
    > example that PF under OpenBSD/FreeBSD is limited in precision by timing
    > factors (quantum cycles, clock resolution etc.). Add to that the number
    > of lookups necessary for determining which packets to send/queue/drop,
    > and it is likely it just isn't technically feasible to do it that way.


    When a few mates and I were looking at this, PF would more than likely
    limit all to CIR rather than allowing PIR when it was availible.
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Apr 13, 2005
    #5
  6. Craig Whitmore

    Mike_P Guest

    "~misfit~" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Mike_P wrote:
    >> "Craig Whitmore" <> wrote in message
    >> news:425cae3e$...
    >>> Hi there.
    >>>
    >>> Can you please email me directly ()
    >>>
    >>> Thanks
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> Tell them to remove 'all' the port shaping/throttling before you'll
    >> help them with their news server setup. :)

    >
    > Are you one of the heavy users Mike?
    >
    > When I rang them yesterday and asked about traffic shaping and how it
    > affects me they looked at my stats and told me that, no, I'm certainly not
    > getting shaped anymore and I'm one of the customers that they want to
    > keep.
    > (Their words).
    >
    > I told them they ned to fix my latency problem if they want to keep me. I
    > mainly use my connection for on-line gaming. I don't move a lot of data at
    > all but what little i move needs to move fast(er).
    > --
    > ~misfit~
    >
    >


    Nah, definitely not a heavy user, about 2-3Gb/month. And yeah, they told me
    that (I'm not being port shaped) last week too. But did you notice the
    difference yesterday when the finally removed (the so called non-existent)
    port shaping from port 119... I mean Wow !.

    My 11yo son uses (or used to use) WinMX to download guitar riffs for his
    Rock School guitar exams. That app has been completely dead on Orcon since
    December (but works great on dial-up). On Orcon it connects ok but the
    connections just timeout because of the 0k/s bandwidth available.

    And Skype has also been crippled by them. You can change the settings
    however to port 80 but why the f* should you have to.?

    If they are no longer port shaping, or bandwidth limiting, or throttling
    then I for one am yet to see any evidence of it.

    Mike_P
    Mike_P, Apr 13, 2005
    #6
  7. In article <>, "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:
    >Seeby Woodhouse - Orcon Internet wrote:
    >> We are waiting on a UBS PVC upgrade at present - hopefully if / once that
    >> happens we'll have another 10 - 20% of UBS capacity, and we currently have
    >> 30-40 megs of free International bandwidth that we'll throw at the pipe
    >> straight away if we can.

    >
    >BTW it is nice to see you posting here again, most ISPs wont show their
    >"face" in "adversity"


    ... or "at all" for that matter. :)


    Bruce


    -------------------------------------
    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
    - George Bernard Shaw
    Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
    - Ambrose Bierce

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
    Bruce Sinclair, Apr 13, 2005
    #7
  8. not a heavy user, about 2-3Gb/month. And yeah, they told me
    > that (I'm not being port shaped) last week too. But did you notice the
    > difference yesterday when the finally removed (the so called non-existent)
    > port shaping from port 119... I mean Wow !.
    >


    Port 119 wasn't shaped to be singled out, but it was bundled in with the
    rest of the traffic which is limited a certain amount - only to manage the
    UBS pipe congestion which everyone should be aware of by now.

    The shaping is done at the edge of our network, and now that the news server
    is 'local' we can't / don't shape traffic to it (along with other stuff like
    traffic to our mail servers etc), which is why it is so much faster

    We are waiting on a UBS PVC upgrade at present - hopefully if / once that
    happens we'll have another 10 - 20% of UBS capacity, and we currently have
    30-40 megs of free International bandwidth that we'll throw at the pipe
    straight away if we can.

    Seeby
    Seeby Woodhouse - Orcon Internet, Apr 13, 2005
    #8
  9. In article <>, "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:
    >Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>>>We are waiting on a UBS PVC upgrade at present - hopefully if / once that
    >>>>happens we'll have another 10 - 20% of UBS capacity, and we currently have
    >>>>30-40 megs of free International bandwidth that we'll throw at the pipe
    >>>>straight away if we can.
    >>>BTW it is nice to see you posting here again, most ISPs wont show their
    >>>"face" in "adversity"

    >
    >> ... or "at all" for that matter. :)

    >you'd be surprised at who lurks here... I know of atleast 9 ISP
    >higher-ups who read, but don't post.
    >
    >well, when they have time.


    Go on ... out them ... what do they have to fear except ridicule itself ? :)



    Bruce


    -------------------------------------
    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
    - George Bernard Shaw
    Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
    - Ambrose Bierce

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
    Bruce Sinclair, Apr 13, 2005
    #9
  10. Seeby Woodhouse - Orcon Internet wrote:
    > We are waiting on a UBS PVC upgrade at present - hopefully if / once that
    > happens we'll have another 10 - 20% of UBS capacity, and we currently have
    > 30-40 megs of free International bandwidth that we'll throw at the pipe
    > straight away if we can.


    BTW it is nice to see you posting here again, most ISPs wont show their
    "face" in "adversity"
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Apr 14, 2005
    #10
  11. Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>>We are waiting on a UBS PVC upgrade at present - hopefully if / once that
    >>>happens we'll have another 10 - 20% of UBS capacity, and we currently have
    >>>30-40 megs of free International bandwidth that we'll throw at the pipe
    >>>straight away if we can.


    >>BTW it is nice to see you posting here again, most ISPs wont show their
    >>"face" in "adversity"


    > ... or "at all" for that matter. :)


    you'd be surprised at who lurks here... I know of atleast 9 ISP
    higher-ups who read, but don't post.

    well, when they have time.
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Apr 14, 2005
    #11
  12. Craig Whitmore wrote:
    > Hi there.
    >
    > Can you please email me directly ()


    Did you get my e-mail Craig?

    The Other Guy
    The Other Guy, Apr 14, 2005
    #12
  13. Craig Whitmore

    Mike_P Guest

    "Seeby Woodhouse - Orcon Internet" <> wrote in
    message news:425d9beb$...
    >


    Thanks for the reply Seeby, much appreciated.

    >
    > Port 119 wasn't shaped to be singled out, but it was bundled in with the
    > rest of the traffic which is limited a certain amount - only to manage the
    > UBS pipe congestion which everyone should be aware of by now.
    >


    It's a bit more than a 'certain amount'... infact our experience has been
    that anything other than port 80 is totally unusable. To trully understand
    our frustration please do not assume 'totally unusable' is an overstatement.

    > The shaping is done at the edge of our network, and now that the news
    > server is 'local' we can't / don't shape traffic to it (along with other
    > stuff like traffic to our mail servers etc), which is why it is so much
    > faster
    >


    Yet news.individual.net and news.x-privat.org are also now usable since
    yesterday and infact seem to be running at something near full speed. It had
    been impossible to use these servers up until then, however the private
    server set up by Dave has been running perfectly for the past 2 months (on a
    port other than 119)... so yeah, it was shaped.

    > We are waiting on a UBS PVC upgrade at present - hopefully if / once that
    > happens we'll have another 10 - 20% of UBS capacity, and we currently have
    > 30-40 megs of free International bandwidth that we'll throw at the pipe
    > straight away if we can.
    >
    > Seeby
    >


    Great !

    Mike_P
    Mike_P, Apr 14, 2005
    #13
  14. Craig Whitmore

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Seeby Woodhouse - Orcon Internet wrote:
    > not a heavy user, about 2-3Gb/month. And yeah, they told me
    >> that (I'm not being port shaped) last week too. But did you notice
    >> the difference yesterday when the finally removed (the so called
    >> non-existent) port shaping from port 119... I mean Wow !.
    >>

    >
    > Port 119 wasn't shaped to be singled out, but it was bundled in with
    > the rest of the traffic which is limited a certain amount - only to
    > manage the UBS pipe congestion which everyone should be aware of by
    > now.
    >
    > The shaping is done at the edge of our network, and now that the news
    > server is 'local' we can't / don't shape traffic to it (along with
    > other stuff like traffic to our mail servers etc), which is why it is
    > so much faster
    >
    > We are waiting on a UBS PVC upgrade at present - hopefully if / once
    > that happens we'll have another 10 - 20% of UBS capacity, and we
    > currently have 30-40 megs of free International bandwidth that we'll
    > throw at the pipe straight away if we can.


    Seeby, can you *please* get port 4000 freed-up? I use it for on-line gaming
    and my ping times are getting _really_ bad from time to time. I play Diablo
    2, hardcore. This means that, if I get a bad lag my character that took me
    hours and hours to build up, may die. Once dead that's it, I've lost him.
    For this reason alone (now you seem to have usenet sussed) I may be forced
    to change the way I connect to the internet. The latency was better on
    dial-up than I'm getting on port 4000 on UBS.

    Thank you.
    --
    ~misfit~
    ~misfit~, Apr 14, 2005
    #14
  15. Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >>>>BTW it is nice to see you posting here again, most ISPs wont show their
    >>>>"face" in "adversity"


    >>>... or "at all" for that matter. :)


    >>you'd be surprised at who lurks here... I know of atleast 9 ISP
    >>higher-ups who read, but don't post.


    >>well, when they have time.


    > Go on ... out them ... what do they have to fear except ridicule itself ? :)


    heh, from the odd evening out with them, they seem to fear users...
    atleast in person, on the phone they are evil, via email they're evil,
    in person, they're good fun.

    I wouldn't think of "outing" them, I get too much free stuff from them
    to do that.

    incidentally I'd like to know why I have an Orcon dialup account...
    someone told me to try it one day, but I don't know anyone at orcon and
    have never paid a bean for it. might be interesting to play find the
    account with them, it shouldn't be too hard for them to find.
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Apr 14, 2005
    #15
  16. Craig Whitmore

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Mike_P wrote:
    > "~misfit~" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Mike_P wrote:
    >>
    >> Are you one of the heavy users Mike?
    >>
    >> When I rang them yesterday and asked about traffic shaping and how it
    >> affects me they looked at my stats and told me that, no, I'm
    >> certainly not getting shaped anymore and I'm one of the customers
    >> that they want to keep.
    >> (Their words).
    >>
    >> I told them they need to fix my latency problem if they want to keep
    >> me. I mainly use my connection for on-line gaming. I don't move a
    >> lot of data at all but what little i move needs to move fast(er).

    >
    > Nah, definitely not a heavy user, about 2-3Gb/month. And yeah, they
    > told me that (I'm not being port shaped) last week too. But did you
    > notice the difference yesterday when the finally removed (the so
    > called non-existent) port shaping from port 119... I mean Wow !.


    I'm still using Dave's server for now and the speed of port 119 hasn't
    changed. It still tops out at around 12-15kb/s when you are getting it from
    an external source. However, the speed of Orcons new feed is internal so is
    running at full throttle. It is the *only* time I get full, 32kb/s downloads
    via Orcon UBS. The rest of the time it's worse than my old Jetstarter 128
    account.

    > My 11yo son uses (or used to use) WinMX to download guitar riffs for
    > his Rock School guitar exams. That app has been completely dead on
    > Orcon since December (but works great on dial-up). On Orcon it
    > connects ok but the connections just timeout because of the 0k/s
    > bandwidth available.


    I haven'r used P2P for a long time. So they've still got it crippled even
    though, like me, you have been told you're not being 'shaped'?

    > And Skype has also been crippled by them. You can change the settings
    > however to port 80 but why the f* should you have to.?


    Presently I only use Skype as an IM client. I wouldn't put all the blame on
    Orcon on this one, Cringley had an article a while ago saying how NZ Telecom
    were doing their level-best to cripple VoIP.

    > If they are no longer port shaping, or bandwidth limiting, or
    > throttling then I for one am yet to see any evidence of it.


    Yeah, until I read this I thought that maybe it's just the known
    over-subscription to Orcon UBS that's causing the slow-downs I'm seeing.
    However if WinMX is that bad with UBS (and fine with dial-up) then it's not
    likely the only cause.

    I wonder what excatly constitutes the "not being shaped" assurance that I
    was given?
    --
    ~misfit~
    ~misfit~, Apr 14, 2005
    #16
  17. In article <>, "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:
    (snip)
    >> Go on ... out them ... what do they have to fear except ridicule itself ? :)

    >
    >heh, from the odd evening out with them, they seem to fear users...
    >atleast in person, on the phone they are evil, via email they're evil,
    >in person, they're good fun.


    ... as is often the case. Email is a VERY bad method of communication. :)

    >I wouldn't think of "outing" them, I get too much free stuff from them
    >to do that.


    What what what ... bribery and corruption ?
    Well I suppose it's nice to know that someone is getting their share ;)

    >incidentally I'd like to know why I have an Orcon dialup account...
    >someone told me to try it one day, but I don't know anyone at orcon and
    >have never paid a bean for it. might be interesting to play find the
    >account with them, it shouldn't be too hard for them to find.


    ... theoretically :)

    Bruce


    -------------------------------------
    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
    - George Bernard Shaw
    Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
    - Ambrose Bierce

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
    Bruce Sinclair, Apr 14, 2005
    #17
  18. Craig Whitmore

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Mike_P wrote:
    > "Seeby Woodhouse - Orcon Internet" <>
    > wrote in message news:425d9beb$...
    >>

    >
    > Thanks for the reply Seeby, much appreciated.
    >
    >>
    >> Port 119 wasn't shaped to be singled out, but it was bundled in with
    >> the rest of the traffic which is limited a certain amount - only to
    >> manage the UBS pipe congestion which everyone should be aware of by
    >> now.

    >
    > It's a bit more than a 'certain amount'... infact our experience has
    > been that anything other than port 80 is totally unusable. To trully
    > understand our frustration please do not assume 'totally unusable' is
    > an overstatement.


    I tend to agree on that one. I used to get frustrated on dial-up as I'd get
    dropped from my game every so often. That has increased more than ten-fold
    on Orcon UBS.

    >> The shaping is done at the edge of our network, and now that the news
    >> server is 'local' we can't / don't shape traffic to it (along with
    >> other stuff like traffic to our mail servers etc), which is why it
    >> is so much faster
    >>

    >
    > Yet news.individual.net and news.x-privat.org are also now usable
    > since yesterday and infact seem to be running at something near full
    > speed. It had been impossible to use these servers up until then,
    > however the private server set up by Dave has been running perfectly
    > for the past 2 months (on a port other than 119)... so yeah, it was
    > shaped.


    I've been using Dave's server on 119 for a week or so now and it's been
    consistant at around 12kb/s. I'm subscribed to x-privat but haven't been
    syncing/using it. I just set it to download a group and it's sitting on
    between 2 and 4kb/s so we are seeing vastly different things here. Orcon's
    server comes in at a steady 32kb/s now.

    >> We are waiting on a UBS PVC upgrade at present - hopefully if / once
    >> that happens we'll have another 10 - 20% of UBS capacity, and we
    >> currently have 30-40 megs of free International bandwidth that we'll
    >> throw at the pipe straight away if we can.
    >>
    >> Seeby
    >>

    >
    > Great !


    Notice the "waiting" and the "if / once this happens"? Seeby is nothing if
    not honest. He's telling you what they've ordered and also, in a roundabout
    way, that Telecom may take months to implement it or may never get around to
    it at all.
    --
    ~misfit~
    ~misfit~, Apr 14, 2005
    #18
  19. ~misfit~ wrote:
    >>Yet news.individual.net and news.x-privat.org are also now usable
    >>since yesterday and infact seem to be running at something near full
    >>speed. It had been impossible to use these servers up until then,
    >>however the private server set up by Dave has been running perfectly
    >>for the past 2 months (on a port other than 119)... so yeah, it was
    >>shaped.


    > I've been using Dave's server on 119 for a week or so now and it's been
    > consistant at around 12kb/s. I'm subscribed to x-privat but haven't been
    > syncing/using it. I just set it to download a group and it's sitting on
    > between 2 and 4kb/s so we are seeing vastly different things here. Orcon's
    > server comes in at a steady 32kb/s now.


    one thing that just occured to me is that my server is national, and so
    wouldn't be shaped along with international traffic whereas
    x-privat/individual.net would be.
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Apr 14, 2005
    #19
  20. In article <>, "Dave - Dave.net.nz" <> wrote:
    >Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >> ... as is often the case. Email is a VERY bad method of communication. :)

    >it depends on how you use it, I use it like conversation, and yes I get
    >myself into trouble, until people realise Im not going to change the way
    >I use it, there are no rules for email use(other than netiquette)


    True ... but you lose the gestures and body language (as on the phone) AND
    the tone of voice and how they say it. You aren't left with much information
    if you stick to typing ... always assuming that what people typed was what
    they meant to type :) :)

    >>>I wouldn't think of "outing" them, I get too much free stuff from them
    >>>to do that.

    >> What what what ... bribery and corruption ?
    >> Well I suppose it's nice to know that someone is getting their share ;)

    >
    >ummm, yeah, well someone has to milk anything they can otherwise no-one
    >would get anything for free.


    Quite so :)

    >>>incidentally I'd like to know why I have an Orcon dialup account...
    >>>someone told me to try it one day, but I don't know anyone at orcon and
    >>>have never paid a bean for it. might be interesting to play find the
    >>>account with them, it shouldn't be too hard for them to find.

    >> ... theoretically :)

    >firstname.lastname couldn't be too hard to find. although the fully
    >qualified domain on the username is an interesting one, not even one
    >they own/control, I fear I've said too much, and it won't work when I
    >get home.


    ... but is Seeby not now warned ? :)

    >although it is only dialup, it's not like Im going to leech anymore than
    >20Gbytes a month over a dialup connection... I mean the most I ever
    >managed was 24Gbytes over 31 days, and not on Orcon.


    Bloody hell !

    Bruce


    -------------------------------------
    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
    - George Bernard Shaw
    Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
    - Ambrose Bierce

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
    Bruce Sinclair, Apr 14, 2005
    #20
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