This worthless MCSE

Discussion in 'MCSE' started by Keiran Haley, Jul 31, 2003.

  1. Keiran Haley

    Keiran Haley Guest

    I am currently training at a Microsoft Academy, the first of it's kind in
    South East England. I have read with frustration the posts regarding the
    worthlessness of the MCSE accreditation. I am using this course to get a
    foot in the door of the IT industry, I neither expect it to get me a
    top-dollar job or a top-shelf one at that. I do intend to follow up this
    course with maybe a Cisco networking cert and/or a Novell cert. Frankly, I
    have had a love of computing since a very early age and my first ZX
    spectrum, and now I'm sick of the building trade and need a change of
    direction.

    Surely these certifications provide a sound knowledge base from which to
    START? All of the naysayers comments seem to revolve around one thing,
    experience. Well I seem to remember after having passed my driving test it
    took me a little while to get used to driving on my own, with no instructor
    to point out or correct my mistakes. That my friends, is the way it is.
    Unfortunately no, experience cannot be bought, and no matter how many certs
    you have they will never be a substitute for knowledge gained from years in
    the field.... BUT, everyone has to start somewhere.

    Spare a thought for the people just starting out, regardless of what you may
    think of the MCSE, we have still paid for the course as that is where our
    interest lies. We are still studying hard to achieve the recognition, and
    then we have to spend the first four years or so of our employment proving
    ourselves still!

    There may be a slump in the IT industry of late, but we all know that after
    slumps there is generally a boom and when there is, there will be more than
    enough work to go around. Less of the bickering ladies and gentlemen please.
     
    Keiran Haley, Jul 31, 2003
    #1
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  2. Keiran Haley

    billyw Guest

    the thing you are picking up on is the fact that people are frustrated with
    the state of the industry and the fact that the cert has been devalued to an
    extent due to the brain dumpers etc.
    as long as you study the subject and get to know it in a more general
    setting.. home lab not just the school u should be ok.
    i was in your position a few years back and i started my own thing because,
    well basically no one was daft enuff to give me a job.
    only recently got mcse because a few clients asked if i was.


    "Keiran Haley" <> wrote in message
    news:11aWa.8894$...
    > I am currently training at a Microsoft Academy, the first of it's kind in
    > South East England. I have read with frustration the posts regarding the
    > worthlessness of the MCSE accreditation. I am using this course to get a
    > foot in the door of the IT industry, I neither expect it to get me a
    > top-dollar job or a top-shelf one at that. I do intend to follow up this
    > course with maybe a Cisco networking cert and/or a Novell cert. Frankly, I
    > have had a love of computing since a very early age and my first ZX
    > spectrum, and now I'm sick of the building trade and need a change of
    > direction.
    >
    > Surely these certifications provide a sound knowledge base from which to
    > START? All of the naysayers comments seem to revolve around one thing,
    > experience. Well I seem to remember after having passed my driving test it
    > took me a little while to get used to driving on my own, with no

    instructor
    > to point out or correct my mistakes. That my friends, is the way it is.
    > Unfortunately no, experience cannot be bought, and no matter how many

    certs
    > you have they will never be a substitute for knowledge gained from years

    in
    > the field.... BUT, everyone has to start somewhere.
    >
    > Spare a thought for the people just starting out, regardless of what you

    may
    > think of the MCSE, we have still paid for the course as that is where our
    > interest lies. We are still studying hard to achieve the recognition, and
    > then we have to spend the first four years or so of our employment proving
    > ourselves still!
    >
    > There may be a slump in the IT industry of late, but we all know that

    after
    > slumps there is generally a boom and when there is, there will be more

    than
    > enough work to go around. Less of the bickering ladies and gentlemen

    please.
    >
    >
     
    billyw, Jul 31, 2003
    #2
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  3. Keiran Haley

    booby orr Guest

    Keiran, IT industry trends are differend from place to place. people on
    this NG are from all over the world.

    IMHO, the IT industry isn't that bleak. what you may be seeing is a
    overall change in the "nature" of how the job is being "required" to be
    "perform".

    1) number of users and server responsibility per admin is increasing.
    the "grunt work" is slowly being phased out of the job requirement.
    compared with a couple of years ago, i hardly do any hardware
    troubleshooting anymore. if it's hardware related, it goes right back to
    vendor, they send a new one with the same config same or next day. you
    pay extra for that service but you don't waste your time trying to fix
    something that can be done by someone else 10 times faster.

    2) IT departmes are shrinking because technology is advancing. that's
    your Active Directory, NDS, RIS, ghost cast servers, remote desktop
    mgtm. and all those nifty new things that allow you to "macro" manage
    your network (servers, users, computers, e.t.c...) by sitting on your
    "ass". (yes, it is officially "ASS" week!).

    3) and yes, IT departments are getting smaller and management is getting
    smarter & in some cases tech savvy. the days of blatantly bullshitting
    management that it takes 4 hours to do a 15 minute job so you can sit
    around and play quake on the dummy test network while everyone else is
    "really" working are over. i used to work in a 5 man department in the
    mid 90's. now is't just 2 guys - so at least one guy can go on holidays
    while the other covers for him.

    but back to MCSE & training value. it's the same as anything else in
    life, it's what you know, how well you do it and who you blow.

    good luck

    billyw wrote:
    > the thing you are picking up on is the fact that people are frustrated with
    > the state of the industry and the fact that the cert has been devalued to an
    > extent due to the brain dumpers etc.
    > as long as you study the subject and get to know it in a more general
    > setting.. home lab not just the school u should be ok.
    > i was in your position a few years back and i started my own thing because,
    > well basically no one was daft enuff to give me a job.
    > only recently got mcse because a few clients asked if i was.
    >
    >
    > "Keiran Haley" <> wrote in message
    > news:11aWa.8894$...
    >
    >>I am currently training at a Microsoft Academy, the first of it's kind in
    >>South East England. I have read with frustration the posts regarding the
    >>worthlessness of the MCSE accreditation. I am using this course to get a
    >>foot in the door of the IT industry, I neither expect it to get me a
    >>top-dollar job or a top-shelf one at that. I do intend to follow up this
    >>course with maybe a Cisco networking cert and/or a Novell cert. Frankly, I
    >>have had a love of computing since a very early age and my first ZX
    >>spectrum, and now I'm sick of the building trade and need a change of
    >>direction.
    >>
    >>Surely these certifications provide a sound knowledge base from which to
    >>START? All of the naysayers comments seem to revolve around one thing,
    >>experience. Well I seem to remember after having passed my driving test it
    >>took me a little while to get used to driving on my own, with no

    >
    > instructor
    >
    >>to point out or correct my mistakes. That my friends, is the way it is.
    >>Unfortunately no, experience cannot be bought, and no matter how many

    >
    > certs
    >
    >>you have they will never be a substitute for knowledge gained from years

    >
    > in
    >
    >>the field.... BUT, everyone has to start somewhere.
    >>
    >>Spare a thought for the people just starting out, regardless of what you

    >
    > may
    >
    >>think of the MCSE, we have still paid for the course as that is where our
    >>interest lies. We are still studying hard to achieve the recognition, and
    >>then we have to spend the first four years or so of our employment proving
    >>ourselves still!
    >>
    >>There may be a slump in the IT industry of late, but we all know that

    >
    > after
    >
    >>slumps there is generally a boom and when there is, there will be more

    >
    > than
    >
    >>enough work to go around. Less of the bickering ladies and gentlemen

    >
    > please.
    >
    >>

    >
    >
     
    booby orr, Jul 31, 2003
    #3
  4. Keiran Haley

    Consultant Guest

    logical thinker.

    not bleak at all. i see many opportunities for folks with my years of
    experience and vast skillset. now if you are in IT manufacturing, you're
    pretty screwed.

    "booby orr" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Keiran, IT industry trends are differend from place to place. people on
    > this NG are from all over the world.
    >
    > IMHO, the IT industry isn't that bleak. what you may be seeing is a
    > overall change in the "nature" of how the job is being "required" to be
    > "perform".
    >
    > 1) number of users and server responsibility per admin is increasing.
    > the "grunt work" is slowly being phased out of the job requirement.
    > compared with a couple of years ago, i hardly do any hardware
    > troubleshooting anymore. if it's hardware related, it goes right back to
    > vendor, they send a new one with the same config same or next day. you
    > pay extra for that service but you don't waste your time trying to fix
    > something that can be done by someone else 10 times faster.
    >
    > 2) IT departmes are shrinking because technology is advancing. that's
    > your Active Directory, NDS, RIS, ghost cast servers, remote desktop
    > mgtm. and all those nifty new things that allow you to "macro" manage
    > your network (servers, users, computers, e.t.c...) by sitting on your
    > "ass". (yes, it is officially "ASS" week!).
    >
    > 3) and yes, IT departments are getting smaller and management is getting
    > smarter & in some cases tech savvy. the days of blatantly bullshitting
    > management that it takes 4 hours to do a 15 minute job so you can sit
    > around and play quake on the dummy test network while everyone else is
    > "really" working are over. i used to work in a 5 man department in the
    > mid 90's. now is't just 2 guys - so at least one guy can go on holidays
    > while the other covers for him.
    >
    > but back to MCSE & training value. it's the same as anything else in
    > life, it's what you know, how well you do it and who you blow.
    >
    > good luck
    >
    > billyw wrote:
    > > the thing you are picking up on is the fact that people are frustrated

    with
    > > the state of the industry and the fact that the cert has been devalued

    to an
    > > extent due to the brain dumpers etc.
    > > as long as you study the subject and get to know it in a more general
    > > setting.. home lab not just the school u should be ok.
    > > i was in your position a few years back and i started my own thing

    because,
    > > well basically no one was daft enuff to give me a job.
    > > only recently got mcse because a few clients asked if i was.
    > >
    > >
    > > "Keiran Haley" <> wrote in message
    > > news:11aWa.8894$...
    > >
    > >>I am currently training at a Microsoft Academy, the first of it's kind

    in
    > >>South East England. I have read with frustration the posts regarding the
    > >>worthlessness of the MCSE accreditation. I am using this course to get a
    > >>foot in the door of the IT industry, I neither expect it to get me a
    > >>top-dollar job or a top-shelf one at that. I do intend to follow up this
    > >>course with maybe a Cisco networking cert and/or a Novell cert. Frankly,

    I
    > >>have had a love of computing since a very early age and my first ZX
    > >>spectrum, and now I'm sick of the building trade and need a change of
    > >>direction.
    > >>
    > >>Surely these certifications provide a sound knowledge base from which to
    > >>START? All of the naysayers comments seem to revolve around one thing,
    > >>experience. Well I seem to remember after having passed my driving test

    it
    > >>took me a little while to get used to driving on my own, with no

    > >
    > > instructor
    > >
    > >>to point out or correct my mistakes. That my friends, is the way it is.
    > >>Unfortunately no, experience cannot be bought, and no matter how many

    > >
    > > certs
    > >
    > >>you have they will never be a substitute for knowledge gained from years

    > >
    > > in
    > >
    > >>the field.... BUT, everyone has to start somewhere.
    > >>
    > >>Spare a thought for the people just starting out, regardless of what you

    > >
    > > may
    > >
    > >>think of the MCSE, we have still paid for the course as that is where

    our
    > >>interest lies. We are still studying hard to achieve the recognition,

    and
    > >>then we have to spend the first four years or so of our employment

    proving
    > >>ourselves still!
    > >>
    > >>There may be a slump in the IT industry of late, but we all know that

    > >
    > > after
    > >
    > >>slumps there is generally a boom and when there is, there will be more

    > >
    > > than
    > >
    > >>enough work to go around. Less of the bickering ladies and gentlemen

    > >
    > > please.
    > >
    > >>

    > >
    > >

    >
     
    Consultant, Jul 31, 2003
    #4
  5. Keiran Haley

    Consultant Guest

    and like working for 3 dollars a day

    "booby orr" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > lol... :)
    >
    > > not bleak at all. i see many opportunities for folks with my years of
    > > experience and vast skillset. now if you are in IT manufacturing,

    you're
    > > pretty screwed.

    >
    > pretty screwed, baby - unless you move to south-east asia...he..he..
    >
    >
    > Consultant wrote:
    > > logical thinker.
    > >
    > > not bleak at all. i see many opportunities for folks with my years of
    > > experience and vast skillset. now if you are in IT manufacturing, you're
    > > pretty screwed.
    > >
    > > "booby orr" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >
    > >>Keiran, IT industry trends are differend from place to place. people on
    > >>this NG are from all over the world.
    > >>
    > >>IMHO, the IT industry isn't that bleak. what you may be seeing is a
    > >>overall change in the "nature" of how the job is being "required" to be
    > >> "perform".
    > >>
    > >>1) number of users and server responsibility per admin is increasing.
    > >>the "grunt work" is slowly being phased out of the job requirement.
    > >>compared with a couple of years ago, i hardly do any hardware
    > >>troubleshooting anymore. if it's hardware related, it goes right back to
    > >>vendor, they send a new one with the same config same or next day. you
    > >>pay extra for that service but you don't waste your time trying to fix
    > >>something that can be done by someone else 10 times faster.
    > >>
    > >>2) IT departmes are shrinking because technology is advancing. that's
    > >>your Active Directory, NDS, RIS, ghost cast servers, remote desktop
    > >>mgtm. and all those nifty new things that allow you to "macro" manage
    > >>your network (servers, users, computers, e.t.c...) by sitting on your
    > >>"ass". (yes, it is officially "ASS" week!).
    > >>
    > >>3) and yes, IT departments are getting smaller and management is getting
    > >> smarter & in some cases tech savvy. the days of blatantly bullshitting
    > >>management that it takes 4 hours to do a 15 minute job so you can sit
    > >>around and play quake on the dummy test network while everyone else is
    > >>"really" working are over. i used to work in a 5 man department in the
    > >>mid 90's. now is't just 2 guys - so at least one guy can go on holidays
    > >>while the other covers for him.
    > >>
    > >>but back to MCSE & training value. it's the same as anything else in
    > >>life, it's what you know, how well you do it and who you blow.
    > >>
    > >>good luck
    > >>
    > >>billyw wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>the thing you are picking up on is the fact that people are frustrated
    > >>

    > > with
    > >
    > >>>the state of the industry and the fact that the cert has been devalued
    > >>

    > > to an
    > >
    > >>>extent due to the brain dumpers etc.
    > >>>as long as you study the subject and get to know it in a more general
    > >>>setting.. home lab not just the school u should be ok.
    > >>>i was in your position a few years back and i started my own thing
    > >>

    > > because,
    > >
    > >>>well basically no one was daft enuff to give me a job.
    > >>>only recently got mcse because a few clients asked if i was.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>"Keiran Haley" <> wrote in message
    > >>>news:11aWa.8894$...
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>I am currently training at a Microsoft Academy, the first of it's kind
    > >>>

    > > in
    > >
    > >>>>South East England. I have read with frustration the posts regarding

    the
    > >>>>worthlessness of the MCSE accreditation. I am using this course to get

    a
    > >>>>foot in the door of the IT industry, I neither expect it to get me a
    > >>>>top-dollar job or a top-shelf one at that. I do intend to follow up

    this
    > >>>>course with maybe a Cisco networking cert and/or a Novell cert.

    Frankly,
    > >>>

    > > I
    > >
    > >>>>have had a love of computing since a very early age and my first ZX
    > >>>>spectrum, and now I'm sick of the building trade and need a change of
    > >>>>direction.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>Surely these certifications provide a sound knowledge base from which

    to
    > >>>>START? All of the naysayers comments seem to revolve around one

    thing,
    > >>>>experience. Well I seem to remember after having passed my driving

    test
    > >>>

    > > it
    > >
    > >>>>took me a little while to get used to driving on my own, with no
    > >>>
    > >>>instructor
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>to point out or correct my mistakes. That my friends, is the way it

    is.
    > >>>>Unfortunately no, experience cannot be bought, and no matter how many
    > >>>
    > >>>certs
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>you have they will never be a substitute for knowledge gained from

    years
    > >>>
    > >>>in
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>the field.... BUT, everyone has to start somewhere.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>Spare a thought for the people just starting out, regardless of what

    you
    > >>>
    > >>>may
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>think of the MCSE, we have still paid for the course as that is where
    > >>>

    > > our
    > >
    > >>>>interest lies. We are still studying hard to achieve the recognition,
    > >>>

    > > and
    > >
    > >>>>then we have to spend the first four years or so of our employment
    > >>>

    > > proving
    > >
    > >>>>ourselves still!
    > >>>>
    > >>>>There may be a slump in the IT industry of late, but we all know that
    > >>>
    > >>>after
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>slumps there is generally a boom and when there is, there will be more
    > >>>
    > >>>than
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>enough work to go around. Less of the bickering ladies and gentlemen
    > >>>
    > >>>please.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>

    > >
    > >

    >
     
    Consultant, Jul 31, 2003
    #5
  6. Keiran Haley

    booby orr Guest

    not even. try $1.00 to $1.50 -that's, if you are lucky.



    Consultant wrote:
    > and like working for 3 dollars a day
    >
    > "booby orr" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>lol... :)
    >>
    >> > not bleak at all. i see many opportunities for folks with my years of
    >> > experience and vast skillset. now if you are in IT manufacturing,

    >
    > you're
    >
    >> > pretty screwed.

    >>
    >>pretty screwed, baby - unless you move to south-east asia...he..he..
    >>
    >>
    >>Consultant wrote:
    >>
    >>>logical thinker.
    >>>
    >>>not bleak at all. i see many opportunities for folks with my years of
    >>>experience and vast skillset. now if you are in IT manufacturing, you're
    >>>pretty screwed.
    >>>
    >>>"booby orr" <> wrote in message
    >>>news:...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Keiran, IT industry trends are differend from place to place. people on
    >>>>this NG are from all over the world.
    >>>>
    >>>>IMHO, the IT industry isn't that bleak. what you may be seeing is a
    >>>>overall change in the "nature" of how the job is being "required" to be
    >>>> "perform".
    >>>>
    >>>>1) number of users and server responsibility per admin is increasing.
    >>>>the "grunt work" is slowly being phased out of the job requirement.
    >>>>compared with a couple of years ago, i hardly do any hardware
    >>>>troubleshooting anymore. if it's hardware related, it goes right back to
    >>>>vendor, they send a new one with the same config same or next day. you
    >>>>pay extra for that service but you don't waste your time trying to fix
    >>>>something that can be done by someone else 10 times faster.
    >>>>
    >>>>2) IT departmes are shrinking because technology is advancing. that's
    >>>>your Active Directory, NDS, RIS, ghost cast servers, remote desktop
    >>>>mgtm. and all those nifty new things that allow you to "macro" manage
    >>>>your network (servers, users, computers, e.t.c...) by sitting on your
    >>>>"ass". (yes, it is officially "ASS" week!).
    >>>>
    >>>>3) and yes, IT departments are getting smaller and management is getting
    >>>> smarter & in some cases tech savvy. the days of blatantly bullshitting
    >>>>management that it takes 4 hours to do a 15 minute job so you can sit
    >>>>around and play quake on the dummy test network while everyone else is
    >>>>"really" working are over. i used to work in a 5 man department in the
    >>>>mid 90's. now is't just 2 guys - so at least one guy can go on holidays
    >>>>while the other covers for him.
    >>>>
    >>>>but back to MCSE & training value. it's the same as anything else in
    >>>>life, it's what you know, how well you do it and who you blow.
    >>>>
    >>>>good luck
    >>>>
    >>>>billyw wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>the thing you are picking up on is the fact that people are frustrated
    >>>>
    >>>with
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>the state of the industry and the fact that the cert has been devalued
    >>>>
    >>>to an
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>extent due to the brain dumpers etc.
    >>>>>as long as you study the subject and get to know it in a more general
    >>>>>setting.. home lab not just the school u should be ok.
    >>>>>i was in your position a few years back and i started my own thing
    >>>>
    >>>because,
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>well basically no one was daft enuff to give me a job.
    >>>>>only recently got mcse because a few clients asked if i was.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>"Keiran Haley" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>news:11aWa.8894$...
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>I am currently training at a Microsoft Academy, the first of it's kind
    >>>>>
    >>>in
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>>South East England. I have read with frustration the posts regarding
    >>>>>

    > the
    >
    >>>>>>worthlessness of the MCSE accreditation. I am using this course to get
    >>>>>

    > a
    >
    >>>>>>foot in the door of the IT industry, I neither expect it to get me a
    >>>>>>top-dollar job or a top-shelf one at that. I do intend to follow up
    >>>>>

    > this
    >
    >>>>>>course with maybe a Cisco networking cert and/or a Novell cert.
    >>>>>

    > Frankly,
    >
    >>>I
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>>have had a love of computing since a very early age and my first ZX
    >>>>>>spectrum, and now I'm sick of the building trade and need a change of
    >>>>>>direction.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Surely these certifications provide a sound knowledge base from which
    >>>>>

    > to
    >
    >>>>>>START? All of the naysayers comments seem to revolve around one
    >>>>>

    > thing,
    >
    >>>>>>experience. Well I seem to remember after having passed my driving
    >>>>>

    > test
    >
    >>>it
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>>took me a little while to get used to driving on my own, with no
    >>>>>
    >>>>>instructor
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>to point out or correct my mistakes. That my friends, is the way it
    >>>>>

    > is.
    >
    >>>>>>Unfortunately no, experience cannot be bought, and no matter how many
    >>>>>
    >>>>>certs
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>you have they will never be a substitute for knowledge gained from
    >>>>>

    > years
    >
    >>>>>in
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>the field.... BUT, everyone has to start somewhere.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Spare a thought for the people just starting out, regardless of what
    >>>>>

    > you
    >
    >>>>>may
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>think of the MCSE, we have still paid for the course as that is where
    >>>>>
    >>>our
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>>interest lies. We are still studying hard to achieve the recognition,
    >>>>>
    >>>and
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>>then we have to spend the first four years or so of our employment
    >>>>>
    >>>proving
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>>ourselves still!
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>There may be a slump in the IT industry of late, but we all know that
    >>>>>
    >>>>>after
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>slumps there is generally a boom and when there is, there will be more
    >>>>>
    >>>>>than
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>enough work to go around. Less of the bickering ladies and gentlemen
    >>>>>
    >>>>>please.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>

    >
    >
     
    booby orr, Jul 31, 2003
    #6
  7. Keiran Haley

    znakomi Guest

    IMHO, don't waste a moment for the negative. You'll never
    know what it's worth until after you have your first MCSE.
    Then you'll know to a better degree what you were capable
    of doing, and there's a lot of value in that. Also as you
    say, "if it gets you in the door", well then, it was worth
    everything. And if nothing else, learning cuts down on
    alzheimers. Networking is the greatest computer game!
    Enjoy!
    >-----Original Message-----
    >I am currently training at a Microsoft Academy, the first

    of it's kind in
    >South East England. I have read with frustration the

    posts regarding the
    >worthlessness of the MCSE accreditation. I am using this

    course to get a
    >foot in the door of the IT industry, I neither expect it

    to get me a
    >top-dollar job or a top-shelf one at that. I do intend to

    follow up this
    >course with maybe a Cisco networking cert and/or a Novell

    cert. Frankly, I
    >have had a love of computing since a very early age and

    my first ZX
    >spectrum, and now I'm sick of the building trade and need

    a change of
    >direction.
    >
    >Surely these certifications provide a sound knowledge

    base from which to
    >START? All of the naysayers comments seem to revolve

    around one thing,
    >experience. Well I seem to remember after having passed

    my driving test it
    >took me a little while to get used to driving on my own,

    with no instructor
    >to point out or correct my mistakes. That my friends, is

    the way it is.
    >Unfortunately no, experience cannot be bought, and no

    matter how many certs
    >you have they will never be a substitute for knowledge

    gained from years in
    >the field.... BUT, everyone has to start somewhere.
    >
    >Spare a thought for the people just starting out,

    regardless of what you may
    >think of the MCSE, we have still paid for the course as

    that is where our
    >interest lies. We are still studying hard to achieve the

    recognition, and
    >then we have to spend the first four years or so of our

    employment proving
    >ourselves still!
    >
    >There may be a slump in the IT industry of late, but we

    all know that after
    >slumps there is generally a boom and when there is, there

    will be more than
    >enough work to go around. Less of the bickering ladies

    and gentlemen please.
    >
    >
    >.
    >
     
    znakomi, Jul 31, 2003
    #7
  8. Keiran Haley

    |{evin Guest

    On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:50:15 +0100, "Keiran Haley"
    <> wrote:

    >worthlessness of the MCSE accreditation. I am using this course to get a
    >foot in the door of the IT industry, I neither expect it to get me a


    That's part of the problem there... people are flocking to get the
    MCSE to get a 'foot in the door'. The cert was not designed to be an
    entry-level cert, it was designed for people who have _experience_ to
    prove that experience. I took all 7 tests cold (in 2 weeks time) and
    passed every one on the first attempt (All but 216 took 30-45 to
    take). Why? Because I build my first computer at age 8 and have had my
    hands in them ever since (That will be 20 years ago the coming
    Saturday).

    The cert is becoming devalued because of the braindumpers and people
    who go 'study' to pass the tests... what does that prove? It proves
    you can memorize.... classes cannot replace experience. How can
    someone with 0 experience become a person qualified to plan the
    layout, design, and implementation of an enterprise network in 6
    months? THEY CAN'T.

    I vote we go back to adaptive tests... and cert renewals (these should
    be no or low-cost... imo). Can I get an Amen?

    Keiran, don't take this personally... this venting isn't really
    directed at you in specific... but by golly I've had a bad week and
    your post just happened to trigger a response... I feel better now,
    though.


    oh.. and a shout out to the braindumpers... ASS FUCKERS.

    Ok... now I really feel better...

    --
    |{ (it's a K you twit) evin -- MCSE, MCSA, Net+, A+, EIEIO, RTFM, MCNGP #24

    seriously... I feel better.
     
    |{evin, Aug 1, 2003
    #8
  9. Keiran Haley

    Gary - US Guest

    Me thinks he is skeert.

    --

    Semper Fi & God Bless America,

    Gary-US MCNGP #20 & retired Jarhead

    http://www.mcngp.tk
    The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
    ** Kindly Do The Needful **

    "Consultant" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > can you call someone an ass fucker, someone who deserves it, that is
    >
    > "booby orr" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > not even. try $1.00 to $1.50 -that's, if you are lucky.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Consultant wrote:
    > > > and like working for 3 dollars a day
    > > >
    > > > "booby orr" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:...
    > > >
    > > >>lol... :)
    > > >>
    > > >> > not bleak at all. i see many opportunities for folks with my years

    of
    > > >> > experience and vast skillset. now if you are in IT manufacturing,
    > > >
    > > > you're
    > > >
    > > >> > pretty screwed.
    > > >>
    > > >>pretty screwed, baby - unless you move to south-east asia...he..he..
    > > >>
    > > >>
    > > >>Consultant wrote:
    > > >>
    > > >>>logical thinker.
    > > >>>
    > > >>>not bleak at all. i see many opportunities for folks with my years of
    > > >>>experience and vast skillset. now if you are in IT manufacturing,

    > you're
    > > >>>pretty screwed.
    > > >>>
    > > >>>"booby orr" <> wrote in message
    > > >>>news:...
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>>>Keiran, IT industry trends are differend from place to place. people

    > on
    > > >>>>this NG are from all over the world.
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>IMHO, the IT industry isn't that bleak. what you may be seeing is a
    > > >>>>overall change in the "nature" of how the job is being "required" to

    > be
    > > >>>> "perform".
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>1) number of users and server responsibility per admin is

    increasing.
    > > >>>>the "grunt work" is slowly being phased out of the job requirement.
    > > >>>>compared with a couple of years ago, i hardly do any hardware
    > > >>>>troubleshooting anymore. if it's hardware related, it goes right

    back
    > to
    > > >>>>vendor, they send a new one with the same config same or next day.

    you
    > > >>>>pay extra for that service but you don't waste your time trying to

    fix
    > > >>>>something that can be done by someone else 10 times faster.
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>2) IT departmes are shrinking because technology is advancing.

    that's
    > > >>>>your Active Directory, NDS, RIS, ghost cast servers, remote desktop
    > > >>>>mgtm. and all those nifty new things that allow you to "macro"

    manage
    > > >>>>your network (servers, users, computers, e.t.c...) by sitting on

    your
    > > >>>>"ass". (yes, it is officially "ASS" week!).
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>3) and yes, IT departments are getting smaller and management is

    > getting
    > > >>>> smarter & in some cases tech savvy. the days of blatantly

    > bullshitting
    > > >>>>management that it takes 4 hours to do a 15 minute job so you can

    sit
    > > >>>>around and play quake on the dummy test network while everyone else

    is
    > > >>>>"really" working are over. i used to work in a 5 man department in

    the
    > > >>>>mid 90's. now is't just 2 guys - so at least one guy can go on

    > holidays
    > > >>>>while the other covers for him.
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>but back to MCSE & training value. it's the same as anything else in
    > > >>>>life, it's what you know, how well you do it and who you blow.
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>good luck
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>billyw wrote:
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>>the thing you are picking up on is the fact that people are

    > frustrated
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>with
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>>>>the state of the industry and the fact that the cert has been

    > devalued
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>to an
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>>>>extent due to the brain dumpers etc.
    > > >>>>>as long as you study the subject and get to know it in a more

    general
    > > >>>>>setting.. home lab not just the school u should be ok.
    > > >>>>>i was in your position a few years back and i started my own thing
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>because,
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>>>>well basically no one was daft enuff to give me a job.
    > > >>>>>only recently got mcse because a few clients asked if i was.
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>"Keiran Haley" <> wrote in message
    > > >>>>>news:11aWa.8894$...
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>>I am currently training at a Microsoft Academy, the first of it's

    > kind
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>in
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>>>>>South East England. I have read with frustration the posts

    regarding
    > > >>>>>
    > > > the
    > > >
    > > >>>>>>worthlessness of the MCSE accreditation. I am using this course to

    > get
    > > >>>>>
    > > > a
    > > >
    > > >>>>>>foot in the door of the IT industry, I neither expect it to get me

    a
    > > >>>>>>top-dollar job or a top-shelf one at that. I do intend to follow

    up
    > > >>>>>
    > > > this
    > > >
    > > >>>>>>course with maybe a Cisco networking cert and/or a Novell cert.
    > > >>>>>
    > > > Frankly,
    > > >
    > > >>>I
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>>>>>have had a love of computing since a very early age and my first

    ZX
    > > >>>>>>spectrum, and now I'm sick of the building trade and need a change

    > of
    > > >>>>>>direction.
    > > >>>>>>
    > > >>>>>>Surely these certifications provide a sound knowledge base from

    > which
    > > >>>>>
    > > > to
    > > >
    > > >>>>>>START? All of the naysayers comments seem to revolve around one
    > > >>>>>
    > > > thing,
    > > >
    > > >>>>>>experience. Well I seem to remember after having passed my driving
    > > >>>>>
    > > > test
    > > >
    > > >>>it
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>>>>>took me a little while to get used to driving on my own, with no
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>instructor
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>>to point out or correct my mistakes. That my friends, is the way

    it
    > > >>>>>
    > > > is.
    > > >
    > > >>>>>>Unfortunately no, experience cannot be bought, and no matter how

    > many
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>certs
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>>you have they will never be a substitute for knowledge gained from
    > > >>>>>
    > > > years
    > > >
    > > >>>>>in
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>>the field.... BUT, everyone has to start somewhere.
    > > >>>>>>
    > > >>>>>>Spare a thought for the people just starting out, regardless of

    what
    > > >>>>>
    > > > you
    > > >
    > > >>>>>may
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>>think of the MCSE, we have still paid for the course as that is

    > where
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>our
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>>>>>interest lies. We are still studying hard to achieve the

    > recognition,
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>and
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>>>>>then we have to spend the first four years or so of our employment
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>proving
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>>>>>ourselves still!
    > > >>>>>>
    > > >>>>>>There may be a slump in the IT industry of late, but we all know

    > that
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>after
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>>slumps there is generally a boom and when there is, there will be

    > more
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>than
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>>enough work to go around. Less of the bickering ladies and

    gentlemen
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>please.
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>
    > > >
    > > >

    > >

    >
    >
     
    Gary - US, Aug 1, 2003
    #9
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