there are 3-imager video cameras, are there 3-imager still cameras?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Bob Fleischer, Jan 29, 2010.

  1. If having three imagers is desirable for a better video camera, are
    there any three-imager still cameras? If not, why?

    Bob
     
    Bob Fleischer, Jan 29, 2010
    #1
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  2. Bob Fleischer

    nospam Guest

    In article <hjv99s$no4$>, Bob Fleischer
    <> wrote:

    > If having three imagers is desirable for a better video camera, are
    > there any three-imager still cameras? If not, why?


    keeping three chips perfectly aligned is *very* difficult and it would
    require a beam splitter which makes most lenses not work, there is
    three times as much data to move which means storage and cpu
    requirements triple, it's a lot more expensive and it doesn't offer
    much benefit.
     
    nospam, Jan 29, 2010
    #2
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  3. Re: there are 3-imager video cameras, are there 3-imager stillcameras?

    On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 14:27:08 -0400, Bob Fleischer wrote:

    > If having three imagers is desirable for a better video camera, are
    > there any three-imager still cameras? If not, why?


    It's probably just too bulky and expensive considering the benefits.
    Low-light performance is not as important in still cameras as in video
    cameras, because the shutter speed isn't limited by the framerate.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-CCD

    --
    Regards, Robert http://www.arumes.com
     
    Robert Spanjaard, Jan 29, 2010
    #3
  4. Bob Fleischer

    Save $3.99 Guest

    "Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <hjv99s$no4$>,
    > says...
    >> If having three imagers is desirable for a better video camera, are
    >> there any three-imager still cameras? If not, why?

    >
    > There are cameras from Foveon which have special sensors which capture
    > all three colour components at each pixel, as if the camera had three
    > sensors.
    > --
    >

    Name one video camera that uses a Foveon sensor? Canon offers the XL-H1 with
    a 3-chip 1/3", approx. 1.67 megapixels per CCD, CCD.
     
    Save $3.99, Jan 29, 2010
    #4
  5. Bob Fleischer

    Bruce Guest

    On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 21:25:58 +0100, Alfred Molon
    <> wrote:
    >In article <hjv99s$no4$>,
    > says...
    >> If having three imagers is desirable for a better video camera, are
    >> there any three-imager still cameras? If not, why?

    >
    >There are cameras from Foveon which have special sensors which capture
    >all three colour components at each pixel, as if the camera had three
    >sensors.



    Back in 2000, Hasselblad planned a medium format 16 MP DSLR with three
    separate Foveon-made CMOS sensors, one each for red, blue and green.
    It was to have been called the Hasselblad DFinity.

    http://everything2.com/title/Hasselblad DFinity

    The project was never completed. Some prototypes were shown to a
    select few journalists, and that was it.

    Foveon went on to design and manufacture a three-layer sensor that is
    used in Sigma DSLRs and Sigma P&S digicams.
     
    Bruce, Jan 29, 2010
    #5
  6. Bob Fleischer

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Alfred
    Molon <> wrote:

    > There are cameras from Foveon which have special sensors which capture
    > all three colour components at each pixel, as if the camera had three
    > sensors.


    here we go again. foveon does *not* capture rgb. it measures three
    overlapping ranges and calculates rgb from that. it has all sorts of
    problems, and at the end of the day, the output is worse than competing
    bayer cameras.
     
    nospam, Jan 29, 2010
    #6
  7. Bob Fleischer

    nospam Guest

    In article <hjvll9$9hm$-september.org>, Save $3.99
    <> wrote:

    > Name one video camera that uses a Foveon sensor? Canon offers the XL-H1 with
    > a 3-chip 1/3", approx. 1.67 megapixels per CCD, CCD.


    the sigma dp1 and dp2 do video. it's only 320 x 240 though.
     
    nospam, Jan 29, 2010
    #7
  8. Bob Fleischer

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Bruce
    <> wrote:

    > Back in 2000, Hasselblad planned a medium format 16 MP DSLR with three
    > separate Foveon-made CMOS sensors, one each for red, blue and green.
    > It was to have been called the Hasselblad DFinity.
    >
    > http://everything2.com/title/Hasselblad DFinity
    >
    > The project was never completed. Some prototypes were shown to a
    > select few journalists, and that was it.


    it was on display at the photo plus expo in new york (with a *really*
    attractive model, but i digress).
     
    nospam, Jan 29, 2010
    #8
  9. Bob Fleischer

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Alfred
    Molon <> wrote:

    > > foveon does *not* capture rgb. it measures three
    > > overlapping ranges and calculates rgb from that.

    >
    > And in fact I wrote "all three colour components".


    it does not measure any components, it calculates them. if bayer
    'guesses' missing data (according to foveon fans), so does foveon. in
    fact, foveon guesses much more than bayer does (and is measurably less
    accurate).

    > By the way, you should stop your ridicolous crusade against full colour
    > sensors.


    i have nothing against full colour sensors. what i have a problem with
    are the lies from sigma/foveon. some of the stuff they claim is
    physically impossible and even contradicts their own patents. deception
    doesn't even begin to describe it.

    > The Foveon implementation may have its weaknesses, but there is
    > no question that capturing the full colour information at each pixel
    > delivers way superior results.


    only *if* they don't compromise other more important aspects, such as
    resolution, noise, dynamic range, etc.

    right now you have a choice between 4.7 megapixels on foveon or 18
    megapixels bayer (of similar crop factor). the image quality of the
    bayer sensor is so far ahead it's not even funny.

    if someone comes up with an 18 megapixel full colour sensor, then it
    might be worth a second look.

    > One day all cameras will use full-colour sensors. Nobody will use Bayer
    > sensor cameras anymore.


    maybe, but it won't be that soon. physics gets in the way and bayer is
    actually very good.
     
    nospam, Jan 30, 2010
    #9
  10. Bob Fleischer

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Alfred
    Molon <> wrote:

    > > bayer is
    > > actually very good.

    >
    > It actually sucks a lot, it's just that you don't know.


    right, all those gorgeous images with lots of detail and accurate
    colours had me confused.
     
    nospam, Jan 30, 2010
    #10
  11. Bob Fleischer

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Alfred
    Molon <> wrote:

    > > right, all those gorgeous images with lots of detail and accurate
    > > colours had me confused.

    >
    > The loss of resolution is the problem. But you already know this.


    what loss? an 18 megapixel canon 7d has far more resolution than the
    4.7 megapixel foveon could dream about. even the most diehard foveon
    fans admit that.

    even the 12 and 15 megapixel slrs blow away what foveon can do and
    those cameras will probably be replaced with higher resolution sensors
    within the next few months (pma is in february).

    step up to a full frame slr and it's even worse. 21-24 megapixels,
    versus 4.7 and the price of full frame keeps getting lower with every
    generation.

    maybe one day there will be a full colour sensor that is as good or
    better than bayer, but as i said, it won't be very soon.
     
    nospam, Jan 31, 2010
    #11
  12. Re: there are 3-imager video cameras, are there 3-imager stillcameras?

    Alfred Molon <> wrote:
    > We've discussed this matter to death already. Do a Google groups search
    > for all the details.


    Yep, we did, and the 4.7 M pixel positions Foveon rivals a 6 or
    7 MPix classical bayer filter (RGGB or BGGR) sensor for resolution.
    As any Google search would show. As any Google search would
    show, there are plenty cameras with 8 or more MPix bayer sensors.
    As any Google search would show, Foveon has bad colour separation
    and no higher ISO qualities to speak of.

    Shall I go on reading you what you should have googled yourself?

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 7, 2010
    #12
  13. Re: there are 3-imager video cameras, are there 3-imager stillcameras?

    nospam <> wrote:
    > In article <hjv99s$no4$>, Bob Fleischer
    > <> wrote:


    >> If having three imagers is desirable for a better video camera, are
    >> there any three-imager still cameras? If not, why?


    > keeping three chips perfectly aligned is *very* difficult


    .... though maybe someone will come up with a method to use a
    sensor-moving IS technology to allow self-adjusting the
    chips.

    > and it would
    > require a beam splitter which makes most lenses not work,


    Put the beam splitter where your classical DSLR has it's beam
    splitter (half mirror) and forego the classical viewfinder
    (and fast phase detection AF).

    > there is
    > three times as much data to move which means storage and cpu
    > requirements triple,


    JPEG doesn't care if 2/3rds of the values for each pixel are
    interpolated or from a real sensor. Only RAW would triple in size.
    And you'd not need the interpolation routines (which have to be
    quite clever --- and think how much more time they need if you
    do RAW processing on your PC) so while I/O speeds would need to
    triple (by using 3 paths for 3 sensors, instead of one from one)
    CPU needs might actually drop.

    And since you don't need interpolation, you'd make do with less
    pixels for the same resolution, so I/O doesn't need to triple,
    it needs only slightly more than double.

    You'd be able to use a much weaker AA filter, too.

    And with proper beam splitting you don't need to loose more than
    small amounts of light to the splitting-by-colour, which could
    increase sensitivity especially for the red and blue channel ...

    > it's a lot more expensive and it doesn't offer
    > much benefit.


    That's probably the problem.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 7, 2010
    #13
  14. Bob Fleischer

    Paul Furman Guest

    Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
    > nospam<> wrote:


    <snip lots of good points>

    >> it's a lot more expensive and it doesn't offer
    >> much benefit.

    >
    > That's probably the problem.


    Plus it would be huge with three APS sensors and perhaps even need
    special lenses with a longer flange distance.

    It seems they overcame the speed issue with video though that's pretty
    much solved for bayer FF 35mm now.
     
    Paul Furman, Feb 7, 2010
    #14
  15. Bob Fleischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Re: there are 3-imager video cameras, are there 3-imager stillcameras?

    Wolfgang Weisselberg <> wrote:
    >nospam <> wrote:
    >> In article <hjv99s$no4$>, Bob Fleischer
    >> <> wrote:

    >
    >>> If having three imagers is desirable for a better video camera, are
    >>> there any three-imager still cameras? If not, why?

    >
    >> keeping three chips perfectly aligned is *very* difficult

    >
    >... though maybe someone will come up with a method to use a
    >sensor-moving IS technology to allow self-adjusting the
    >chips.


    The point isn't whether it _can_ be done. It's whether it's worth the
    trouble and expense.

    --
    Ray Fischer
     
    Ray Fischer, Feb 7, 2010
    #15
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