The tale of two elephants and cell phones

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Warwick, Aug 6, 2009.

  1. Warwick

    Warwick Guest

    The tale of two elephants was something I learnt about way back when I was
    in engineering school. Take half the period of a sine wave that looks like
    a frown. Elephant one. Put it on a graph. The y axis represents
    time/effort/money the x axis is time. We call this elephant research and
    developement. Things start slownly reach a peak then tail off. Then we get
    another one exactly the same and call it marketing/sales. Elephant 2. It is
    at the end of the r@d elephant that all the technical issues have been
    resolved and it is time to set standards. Ideally the two elephants should
    have a space in between them, but invariably the marketing one creeps
    closer to the R&D one. If it gets too close it becomes too late to set the
    correct standards and we wind up with a mess.

    It is a well known problem in the computer industry which predates cell
    phones by a decade or two at least. I have got myself in a spot of legal
    bother and need to print off the texts on my phone. I have been trying to
    pair it with a macbook. What a **** up. The two elephants have collided
    very badly in the cell phone industry. There are no standards for the
    simplest things like the charger connections of how to lay out a keyboard.
    Even if I can get this up and running (which I doubt) I will have to print
    each message individually instead of dumping a folder (or better the entire
    memory) onto the pc.

    Having tried the exercise I wish merely to accuse telcos and cell phone
    manufactureres of gross incompetence. They have ignored a well documented
    problem and actually fucked things up for everybody. Idiots. And bluetooth
    fucking sucks. Awful.

    --
    cheers
     
    Warwick, Aug 6, 2009
    #1
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  2. Warwick

    Warwick Guest

    On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:48:48 +1200, whoisthis wrote:

    > In article <6ryisjynp7yk.hwahqquu0uus$>,
    > Warwick <> wrote:
    >
    >> [29 quoted lines suppressed]

    >
    > My iPhone does not have this issue, I have all my texts backed up. The
    > cable I use for my iPod also does my phone, so I have multiple cables,
    > and it charges up over USB, so a USB charger, laptop, PS3, etc etc all
    > charge it up just fine.


    Cool. How do we get all the cell phone manufacturers to adopt USB?
     
    Warwick, Aug 6, 2009
    #2
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  3. Warwick

    me Guest

    On Aug 6, 8:27 pm, whoisthis <> wrote:

    > No idea... I did hear that the europe they were looking at forcing a
    > standard....


    Not forcing, the industry were agreeing on one before being forced
     
    me, Aug 6, 2009
    #3
  4. Warwick

    Warwick Guest

    On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 02:58:35 -0700 (PDT), me wrote:

    > On Aug 6, 8:27 pm, whoisthis <> wrote:
    >
    >> [2 quoted lines suppressed]

    >
    > Not forcing, the industry were agreeing on one before being forced


    "Agreeing" lol. 10-15 years too late sorry. If I were in charge i'd line
    the pricks against a wall and shoot them. Start again.
     
    Warwick, Aug 6, 2009
    #4
  5. Warwick

    Richard Guest

    Warwick wrote:
    > On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:48:48 +1200, whoisthis wrote:
    >
    >> In article <6ryisjynp7yk.hwahqquu0uus$>,
    >> Warwick <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> [29 quoted lines suppressed]

    >> My iPhone does not have this issue, I have all my texts backed up. The
    >> cable I use for my iPod also does my phone, so I have multiple cables,
    >> and it charges up over USB, so a USB charger, laptop, PS3, etc etc all
    >> charge it up just fine.

    >
    > Cool. How do we get all the cell phone manufacturers to adopt USB?


    They have - micro USB, and has support for charging at up to 1.2 amps.

    Still not as awesome as HTC's modified mini USB plug which had audio and
    video on the same plug so it was a one plug solution when getting into a
    car, but a good start nevertheless.
     
    Richard, Aug 6, 2009
    #5
  6. Warwick

    victor Guest

    whoisthis wrote:
    > In article
    > <>,
    > me <> wrote:
    >
    >> On Aug 6, 8:27 pm, whoisthis <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> No idea... I did hear that the europe they were looking at forcing a
    >>> standard....

    >> Not forcing, the industry were agreeing on one before being forced

    >
    > Pretty much the same thing in the end.


    No
    The iPhone is non standard.
     
    victor, Aug 6, 2009
    #6
  7. Warwick

    victor Guest

    whoisthis wrote:
    > In article <h5eh5g$ifq$>, Richard <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Warwick wrote:
    >>> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:48:48 +1200, whoisthis wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In article <6ryisjynp7yk.hwahqquu0uus$>,
    >>>> Warwick <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> [29 quoted lines suppressed]
    >>>> My iPhone does not have this issue, I have all my texts backed up. The
    >>>> cable I use for my iPod also does my phone, so I have multiple cables,
    >>>> and it charges up over USB, so a USB charger, laptop, PS3, etc etc all
    >>>> charge it up just fine.
    >>> Cool. How do we get all the cell phone manufacturers to adopt USB?

    >> They have - micro USB, and has support for charging at up to 1.2 amps.
    >>
    >> Still not as awesome as HTC's modified mini USB plug which had audio and
    >> video on the same plug so it was a one plug solution when getting into a
    >> car, but a good start nevertheless.

    >
    > ApPle has had a plug like that on the ipods for ages...


    But no standard plug for chargers or usb, its just like every other
    phone with a proprietary connector and an adapter lead.
    It doesn't have micro USB, the agreed standard.
     
    victor, Aug 6, 2009
    #7
  8. Warwick

    Alan Guest

    "Warwick" <> wrote in message
    news:6ryisjynp7yk.hwahqquu0uus$...
    > The tale of two elephants was something I learnt about way back when
    > I was
    > in engineering school. Take half the period of a sine wave that
    > looks like
    > a frown. Elephant one. Put it on a graph. The y axis represents
    > time/effort/money the x axis is time. We call this elephant research
    > and
    > developement. Things start slownly reach a peak then tail off. Then
    > we get
    > another one exactly the same and call it marketing/sales. Elephant
    > 2. It is
    > at the end of the r@d elephant that all the technical issues have
    > been
    > resolved and it is time to set standards. Ideally the two elephants
    > should
    > have a space in between them, but invariably the marketing one
    > creeps
    > closer to the R&D one. If it gets too close it becomes too late to
    > set the
    > correct standards and we wind up with a mess.
    >
    > It is a well known problem in the computer industry which predates
    > cell
    > phones by a decade or two at least. I have got myself in a spot of
    > legal
    > bother and need to print off the texts on my phone. I have been
    > trying to
    > pair it with a macbook. What a **** up. The two elephants have
    > collided
    > very badly in the cell phone industry. There are no standards for
    > the
    > simplest things like the charger connections of how to lay out a
    > keyboard.
    > Even if I can get this up and running (which I doubt) I will have to
    > print
    > each message individually instead of dumping a folder (or better the
    > entire
    > memory) onto the pc.
    >
    > Having tried the exercise I wish merely to accuse telcos and cell
    > phone
    > manufactureres of gross incompetence. They have ignored a well
    > documented
    > problem and actually fucked things up for everybody. Idiots. And
    > bluetooth
    > fucking sucks. Awful.
    >
    > --
    > cheers


    Hi Warwick,

    You don't mention what phone, so difficult to help, but with our
    Nokia's (all current models that we have - they are all S60v3 I
    think), you can just copy all of the txts in one go to a text file on
    your PC.

    Just connect any way you like (I can do it via USB, BlueTooth,
    InfraRed (!), WLAN, or GPRS) depending on your phone. I tend to use
    BT as it is just there and no cables to worry about, but USB or WLAN
    is faster

    I export in CSV format and it becomes easily filterable in
    excel or whatever.

    The fields I get are (there are no headers so my names):

    sms type
    deliver status
    phone number
    date and time
    text of the msg

    Nothing flash then, but usable

    Some (most) models of phone might be more 'closed' than Symbian, but I
    would expect WinMobile to be just as easy. You might have to look
    harder with BB, but I would have thought it is still possible on just
    about anything if your motivation is great enough.


    HTH,

    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
     
    Alan, Aug 6, 2009
    #8
  9. Warwick

    victor Guest

    whoisthis wrote:
    > In article <h5ffqi$i30$-september.org>,
    > victor <> wrote:
    >
    >> whoisthis wrote:
    >>> In article <h5eh5g$ifq$>, Richard <>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Warwick wrote:
    >>>>> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:48:48 +1200, whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> In article <6ryisjynp7yk.hwahqquu0uus$>,
    >>>>>> Warwick <> wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> [29 quoted lines suppressed]
    >>>>>> My iPhone does not have this issue, I have all my texts backed up. The
    >>>>>> cable I use for my iPod also does my phone, so I have multiple cables,
    >>>>>> and it charges up over USB, so a USB charger, laptop, PS3, etc etc all
    >>>>>> charge it up just fine.
    >>>>> Cool. How do we get all the cell phone manufacturers to adopt USB?
    >>>> They have - micro USB, and has support for charging at up to 1.2 amps.
    >>>>
    >>>> Still not as awesome as HTC's modified mini USB plug which had audio and
    >>>> video on the same plug so it was a one plug solution when getting into a
    >>>> car, but a good start nevertheless.
    >>> ApPle has had a plug like that on the ipods for ages...

    >> But no standard plug for chargers or usb, its just like every other
    >> phone with a proprietary connector and an adapter lead.
    >> It doesn't have micro USB, the agreed standard.

    >
    > The "standard" was agreed to years after Apple had standardised...


    Because the dock connector is a proprietary interface, the
    implementation of the interface requires paying royalties to Apple.
    Not much incentive to become a real standard.
     
    victor, Aug 7, 2009
    #9
  10. Warwick

    victor Guest

    whoisthis wrote:
    > In article <h5gumm$hno$-september.org>,
    > victor <> wrote:
    >
    >> whoisthis wrote:
    >>> In article <h5ffqi$i30$-september.org>,
    >>> victor <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>> In article <h5eh5g$ifq$>, Richard <>
    >>>>> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Warwick wrote:
    >>>>>>> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:48:48 +1200, whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> In article <6ryisjynp7yk.hwahqquu0uus$>,
    >>>>>>>> Warwick <> wrote:
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> [29 quoted lines suppressed]
    >>>>>>>> My iPhone does not have this issue, I have all my texts backed up. The
    >>>>>>>> cable I use for my iPod also does my phone, so I have multiple cables,
    >>>>>>>> and it charges up over USB, so a USB charger, laptop, PS3, etc etc all
    >>>>>>>> charge it up just fine.
    >>>>>>> Cool. How do we get all the cell phone manufacturers to adopt USB?
    >>>>>> They have - micro USB, and has support for charging at up to 1.2 amps.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Still not as awesome as HTC's modified mini USB plug which had audio and
    >>>>>> video on the same plug so it was a one plug solution when getting into a
    >>>>>> car, but a good start nevertheless.
    >>>>> ApPle has had a plug like that on the ipods for ages...
    >>>> But no standard plug for chargers or usb, its just like every other
    >>>> phone with a proprietary connector and an adapter lead.
    >>>> It doesn't have micro USB, the agreed standard.
    >>> The "standard" was agreed to years after Apple had standardised...

    >> Because the dock connector is a proprietary interface, the
    >> implementation of the interface requires paying royalties to Apple.
    >> Not much incentive to become a real standard.

    >
    > And yet lots of 3rd parties did so.
    > And if you object to that sort of thing best throw out your computer, it
    > is full of proprietary hardware and interfaces.... USB being one of them.


    If I object to that sort of thing !! ROTFL you moron !!!
    The dock connector is a transparent money making scheme to make sure
    that no other chargers fit Apples product unless they pay Apple a royalty.
    Thats what consumers like Warwick are pissed off about.
     
    victor, Aug 8, 2009
    #10
  11. Warwick

    Enkidu Guest

    whoisthis wrote:
    > In article <h5ig2l$q6c$-september.org>, victor
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> whoisthis wrote:
    >>> In article <h5gumm$hno$-september.org>, victor
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>> In article <h5ffqi$i30$-september.org>, victor
    >>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>>>> In article <h5eh5g$ifq$>, Richard
    >>>>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Warwick wrote:
    >>>>>>>>> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:48:48 +1200, whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> In article
    >>>>>>>>>> <6ryisjynp7yk.hwahqquu0uus$>,
    >>>>>>>>>> Warwick <> wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> [29 quoted lines suppressed]
    >>>>>>>>>> My iPhone does not have this issue, I have all my
    >>>>>>>>>> texts backed up. The cable I use for my iPod also
    >>>>>>>>>> does my phone, so I have multiple cables, and it
    >>>>>>>>>> charges up over USB, so a USB charger, laptop, PS3,
    >>>>>>>>>> etc etc all charge it up just fine.
    >>>>>>>>> Cool. How do we get all the cell phone manufacturers
    >>>>>>>>> to adopt USB?
    >>>>>>>> They have - micro USB, and has support for charging at
    >>>>>>>> up to 1.2 amps.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Still not as awesome as HTC's modified mini USB plug
    >>>>>>>> which had audio and video on the same plug so it was a
    >>>>>>>> one plug solution when getting into a car, but a good
    >>>>>>>> start nevertheless.
    >>>>>>> ApPle has had a plug like that on the ipods for ages...
    >>>>>> But no standard plug for chargers or usb, its just like
    >>>>>> every other phone with a proprietary connector and an
    >>>>>> adapter lead. It doesn't have micro USB, the agreed
    >>>>>> standard.
    >>>>> The "standard" was agreed to years after Apple had
    >>>>> standardised...
    >>>> Because the dock connector is a proprietary interface, the
    >>>> implementation of the interface requires paying royalties to
    >>>> Apple. Not much incentive to become a real standard.
    >>> And yet lots of 3rd parties did so. And if you object to that
    >>> sort of thing best throw out your computer, it is full of
    >>> proprietary hardware and interfaces.... USB being one of them.

    >> If I object to that sort of thing !! ROTFL you moron !!! The dock
    >> connector is a transparent money making scheme to make sure that no
    >> other chargers fit Apples product unless they pay Apple a royalty.
    >> Thats what consumers like Warwick are pissed off about.

    >
    > Just like royalties are paid for USB, IDE, SATA, CD/DVD drives,
    > Bluetooth, 802.11a/b/g/n,trackpad,webcam, all of the ICs inside will
    > be paying some royalties to someone else for some of the technology
    > patents.... and they are all making money from these... deliberately.
    > So, from the looks of things you are simply on an Anti-apple crusade
    > all the while having your head up your arse about all the other
    > proprietary, royalty paid technology that is inside your computer
    >

    Apples are for mommies and daddies:

    http://htwif.com/dblog/?p=302

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
    the same old personalities show through.
     
    Enkidu, Aug 8, 2009
    #11
  12. Warwick

    victor Guest

    whoisthis wrote:

    >
    > Just like royalties are paid for USB, IDE, SATA, CD/DVD drives,
    > Bluetooth, 802.11a/b/g/n,trackpad,webcam, all of the ICs inside will be
    > paying some royalties to someone else for some of the technology
    > patents.... and they are all making money from these... deliberately.
    > So, from the looks of things you are simply on an Anti-apple crusade all
    > the while having your head up your arse about all the other proprietary,
    > royalty paid technology that is inside your computer


    The dock connector is on their phones not their computers.
    This thread is about universal connections for cellphones and Apple
    doesn't have one for the same reason as every other phone and the
    mounting pile of junk chargers. Short-sighted greed.
    Apple ensured the ultimate failure of firewire by the same tactics,
    despite its advantages.
    OTOH The USB core team has made a commitment not to charge royalties for
    the essential patents required to implement compliant products.
    Apple
    Face it for once, not everything that Apple does is in the best interest
    of the customers.
     
    victor, Aug 8, 2009
    #12
  13. Warwick

    Enkidu Guest

    whoisthis wrote:
    > In article <4a7cdf6c$>,
    > Enkidu <> wrote:
    >
    >> whoisthis wrote:
    >>> In article <h5ig2l$q6c$-september.org>, victor
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>> In article <h5gumm$hno$-september.org>, victor
    >>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>>>> In article <h5ffqi$i30$-september.org>, victor
    >>>>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>>>>>> In article <h5eh5g$ifq$>, Richard
    >>>>>>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Warwick wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:48:48 +1200, whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>> In article
    >>>>>>>>>>>> <6ryisjynp7yk.hwahqquu0uus$>,
    >>>>>>>>>>>> Warwick <> wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>> [29 quoted lines suppressed]
    >>>>>>>>>>>> My iPhone does not have this issue, I have all my
    >>>>>>>>>>>> texts backed up. The cable I use for my iPod also
    >>>>>>>>>>>> does my phone, so I have multiple cables, and it
    >>>>>>>>>>>> charges up over USB, so a USB charger, laptop, PS3,
    >>>>>>>>>>>> etc etc all charge it up just fine.
    >>>>>>>>>>> Cool. How do we get all the cell phone manufacturers
    >>>>>>>>>>> to adopt USB?
    >>>>>>>>>> They have - micro USB, and has support for charging at
    >>>>>>>>>> up to 1.2 amps.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Still not as awesome as HTC's modified mini USB plug
    >>>>>>>>>> which had audio and video on the same plug so it was a
    >>>>>>>>>> one plug solution when getting into a car, but a good
    >>>>>>>>>> start nevertheless.
    >>>>>>>>> ApPle has had a plug like that on the ipods for ages...
    >>>>>>>> But no standard plug for chargers or usb, its just like
    >>>>>>>> every other phone with a proprietary connector and an
    >>>>>>>> adapter lead. It doesn't have micro USB, the agreed
    >>>>>>>> standard.
    >>>>>>> The "standard" was agreed to years after Apple had
    >>>>>>> standardised...
    >>>>>> Because the dock connector is a proprietary interface, the
    >>>>>> implementation of the interface requires paying royalties to
    >>>>>> Apple. Not much incentive to become a real standard.
    >>>>> And yet lots of 3rd parties did so. And if you object to that
    >>>>> sort of thing best throw out your computer, it is full of
    >>>>> proprietary hardware and interfaces.... USB being one of them.
    >>>> If I object to that sort of thing !! ROTFL you moron !!! The dock
    >>>> connector is a transparent money making scheme to make sure that no
    >>>> other chargers fit Apples product unless they pay Apple a royalty.
    >>>> Thats what consumers like Warwick are pissed off about.
    >>> Just like royalties are paid for USB, IDE, SATA, CD/DVD drives,
    >>> Bluetooth, 802.11a/b/g/n,trackpad,webcam, all of the ICs inside will
    >>> be paying some royalties to someone else for some of the technology
    >>> patents.... and they are all making money from these... deliberately.
    >>> So, from the looks of things you are simply on an Anti-apple crusade
    >>> all the while having your head up your arse about all the other
    >>> proprietary, royalty paid technology that is inside your computer
    >>>

    >> Apples are for mommies and daddies:
    >>
    >> http://htwif.com/dblog/?p=302

    >
    > Strange, we are using them for data analysis from X-Ray crystalography ,
    > NMR, and the LHC. They are used extensively in Chemistry, Physics,
    > Mathematics, Statistics, BioChemistry, Microbiology, Genetics, DNA
    > Analysis, Engineering, etc etc etc.... you should get out more.
    >

    I'm not going to debate the relative merits of Apples and PCs. My main
    aim was to introduce the rather funny video - which mentions Apples only
    in passing.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
    the same old personalities show through.
     
    Enkidu, Aug 8, 2009
    #13
  14. Warwick

    victor Guest

    whoisthis wrote:
    > In article <h5ipdn$n68$-september.org>,
    > victor <> wrote:
    >
    >> whoisthis wrote:
    >>
    >>> Just like royalties are paid for USB, IDE, SATA, CD/DVD drives,
    >>> Bluetooth, 802.11a/b/g/n,trackpad,webcam, all of the ICs inside will be
    >>> paying some royalties to someone else for some of the technology
    >>> patents.... and they are all making money from these... deliberately.
    >>> So, from the looks of things you are simply on an Anti-apple crusade all
    >>> the while having your head up your arse about all the other proprietary,
    >>> royalty paid technology that is inside your computer

    >> The dock connector is on their phones not their computers.
    >> This thread is about universal connections for cellphones and Apple
    >> doesn't have one for the same reason as every other phone and the
    >> mounting pile of junk chargers. Short-sighted greed.

    >
    > incorrect, there was no standard that allowed them to take advantage of
    > all the facilities the iPod offered. Just as until Intel came up with
    > USB there was no such connector.
    >
    >> Apple ensured the ultimate failure of firewire by the same tactics,
    >> despite its advantages.
    >> OTOH The USB core team has made a commitment not to charge royalties for
    >> the essential patents required to implement compliant products.
    >> Apple
    >> Face it for once, not everything that Apple does is in the best interest
    >> of the customers.

    >
    > USB sucks for high speed data transfer, it has a significant CPU
    > overhead, I suspect we will see the highspeed USB dies too, being
    > replaced by either Firewire 3 in high end Applications or eSATA.


    Phones don't need high speed data transfer.
     
    victor, Aug 8, 2009
    #14
  15. Warwick

    victor Guest

    whoisthis wrote:
    > In article <h5jftv$998$-september.org>,
    > victor <> wrote:
    >
    >> whoisthis wrote:
    >>> In article <h5ipdn$n68$-september.org>,
    >>> victor <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Just like royalties are paid for USB, IDE, SATA, CD/DVD drives,
    >>>>> Bluetooth, 802.11a/b/g/n,trackpad,webcam, all of the ICs inside will be
    >>>>> paying some royalties to someone else for some of the technology
    >>>>> patents.... and they are all making money from these... deliberately.
    >>>>> So, from the looks of things you are simply on an Anti-apple crusade all
    >>>>> the while having your head up your arse about all the other proprietary,
    >>>>> royalty paid technology that is inside your computer
    >>>> The dock connector is on their phones not their computers.
    >>>> This thread is about universal connections for cellphones and Apple
    >>>> doesn't have one for the same reason as every other phone and the
    >>>> mounting pile of junk chargers. Short-sighted greed.
    >>> incorrect, there was no standard that allowed them to take advantage of
    >>> all the facilities the iPod offered. Just as until Intel came up with
    >>> USB there was no such connector.
    >>>
    >>>> Apple ensured the ultimate failure of firewire by the same tactics,
    >>>> despite its advantages.
    >>>> OTOH The USB core team has made a commitment not to charge royalties for
    >>>> the essential patents required to implement compliant products.
    >>>> Apple
    >>>> Face it for once, not everything that Apple does is in the best interest
    >>>> of the customers.
    >>> USB sucks for high speed data transfer, it has a significant CPU
    >>> overhead, I suspect we will see the highspeed USB dies too, being
    >>> replaced by either Firewire 3 in high end Applications or eSATA.

    >> Phones don't need high speed data transfer.

    >
    > No one will ever need more than 640k of memory...


    Its not a prediction.
    http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/29/nokia-apple-rim-and-others-agree-on-micro-usb-phone-charger-st/
     
    victor, Aug 8, 2009
    #15
  16. Warwick

    victor Guest

    whoisthis wrote:
    > In article <h5kv9e$u8r$-september.org>,
    > victor <> wrote:
    >
    >> whoisthis wrote:
    >>> In article <h5jftv$998$-september.org>,
    >>> victor <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>> In article <h5ipdn$n68$-september.org>,
    >>>>> victor <> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> whoisthis wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Just like royalties are paid for USB, IDE, SATA, CD/DVD drives,
    >>>>>>> Bluetooth, 802.11a/b/g/n,trackpad,webcam, all of the ICs inside will be
    >>>>>>> paying some royalties to someone else for some of the technology
    >>>>>>> patents.... and they are all making money from these... deliberately.
    >>>>>>> So, from the looks of things you are simply on an Anti-apple crusade
    >>>>>>> all
    >>>>>>> the while having your head up your arse about all the other
    >>>>>>> proprietary,
    >>>>>>> royalty paid technology that is inside your computer
    >>>>>> The dock connector is on their phones not their computers.
    >>>>>> This thread is about universal connections for cellphones and Apple
    >>>>>> doesn't have one for the same reason as every other phone and the
    >>>>>> mounting pile of junk chargers. Short-sighted greed.
    >>>>> incorrect, there was no standard that allowed them to take advantage of
    >>>>> all the facilities the iPod offered. Just as until Intel came up with
    >>>>> USB there was no such connector.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Apple ensured the ultimate failure of firewire by the same tactics,
    >>>>>> despite its advantages.
    >>>>>> OTOH The USB core team has made a commitment not to charge royalties for
    >>>>>> the essential patents required to implement compliant products.
    >>>>>> Apple
    >>>>>> Face it for once, not everything that Apple does is in the best interest
    >>>>>> of the customers.
    >>>>> USB sucks for high speed data transfer, it has a significant CPU
    >>>>> overhead, I suspect we will see the highspeed USB dies too, being
    >>>>> replaced by either Firewire 3 in high end Applications or eSATA.
    >>>> Phones don't need high speed data transfer.
    >>> No one will ever need more than 640k of memory...

    >> Its not a prediction.
    >> http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/29/nokia-apple-rim-and-others-agree-on-micro-u
    >> sb-phone-charger-st/

    >
    > Which is a LOT different from "Phones don't need high speed data
    > transfer".


    The iPhone has USB on its proprietary dock connector because it doesn't
    need high speed data transfer.

    Other phones will use micro USB for data because they have them for
    charging, its not that hard to understand is it ?
     
    victor, Aug 9, 2009
    #16
  17. Warwick

    Richard Guest

    victor wrote:

    > Phones don't need high speed data transfer.


    How long are you prepared to wait to change the 32 gigs of music and
    movies on a phone? What happens when 256 gig drives are common and
    phones can play HD video etc?

    Still dont need high speed?
     
    Richard, Aug 9, 2009
    #17
  18. Warwick

    victor Guest

    Richard wrote:
    > victor wrote:
    >
    >> Phones don't need high speed data transfer.

    >
    > How long are you prepared to wait to change the 32 gigs of music and
    > movies on a phone? What happens when 256 gig drives are common and
    > phones can play HD video etc?
    >
    > Still dont need high speed?


    Then that will just be normal speed, if it is common.
    Its more likely that the network speed/data compression will increase to
    where the content remains in the cloud though.
     
    victor, Aug 9, 2009
    #18
  19. Warwick

    Warwick Guest

    On Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:03:11 +1200, Alan wrote:

    > "Warwick" <> wrote in message
    > news:6ryisjynp7yk.hwahqquu0uus$...
    >> The tale of two elephants was something I learnt about way back when
    >> I was
    >> in engineering school. Take half the period of a sine wave that
    >> looks like
    >> a frown. Elephant one. Put it on a graph. The y axis represents
    >> time/effort/money the x axis is time. We call this elephant research
    >> and
    >> developement. Things start slownly reach a peak then tail off. Then
    >> we get
    >> another one exactly the same and call it marketing/sales. Elephant
    >> 2. It is
    >> at the end of the r@d elephant that all the technical issues have
    >> been
    >> resolved and it is time to set standards. Ideally the two elephants
    >> should
    >> have a space in between them, but invariably the marketing one
    >> creeps
    >> closer to the R&D one. If it gets too close it becomes too late to
    >> set the
    >> correct standards and we wind up with a mess.
    >>
    >> It is a well known problem in the computer industry which predates
    >> cell
    >> phones by a decade or two at least. I have got myself in a spot of
    >> legal
    >> bother and need to print off the texts on my phone. I have been
    >> trying to
    >> pair it with a macbook. What a **** up. The two elephants have
    >> collided
    >> very badly in the cell phone industry. There are no standards for
    >> the
    >> simplest things like the charger connections of how to lay out a
    >> keyboard.
    >> Even if I can get this up and running (which I doubt) I will have to
    >> print
    >> each message individually instead of dumping a folder (or better the
    >> entire
    >> memory) onto the pc.
    >>
    >> Having tried the exercise I wish merely to accuse telcos and cell
    >> phone
    >> manufactureres of gross incompetence. They have ignored a well
    >> documented
    >> problem and actually fucked things up for everybody. Idiots. And
    >> bluetooth
    >> fucking sucks. Awful.
    >>
    >> --
    >> cheers

    >
    > Hi Warwick,
    >
    > You don't mention what phone, so difficult to help, but with our
    > Nokia's (all current models that we have - they are all S60v3 I
    > think), you can just copy all of the txts in one go to a text file on
    > your PC.
    >
    > Just connect any way you like (I can do it via USB, BlueTooth,
    > InfraRed (!), WLAN, or GPRS) depending on your phone. I tend to use
    > BT as it is just there and no cables to worry about, but USB or WLAN
    > is faster
    >
    > I export in CSV format and it becomes easily filterable in
    > excel or whatever.
    >
    > The fields I get are (there are no headers so my names):
    >
    > sms type
    > deliver status
    > phone number
    > date and time
    > text of the msg
    >
    > Nothing flash then, but usable
    >
    > Some (most) models of phone might be more 'closed' than Symbian, but I
    > would expect WinMobile to be just as easy. You might have to look
    > harder with BB, but I would have thought it is still possible on just
    > about anything if your motivation is great enough.
    >
    >
    > HTH,
    >
    > Alan.


    That is helpful thank-you Alan. Phone is a Samsung tho. I can transfer
    photos etc easily via bluetooth but the sms's will not transfer unless it
    sees a bluetooth printer. Maybe I can talk the Macbook into spoofing itself
    as a bluetooth printer (whatever the hell that is) and printing them to
    file. But I need to get hold of vodafone anyway and get them to pull the
    messages off their server. They have no evidentiary value in court
    otherwise. Probably inadmissable.

    --
    cheers
     
    Warwick, Aug 11, 2009
    #19
  20. Warwick

    Alan Guest

    "Warwick" <> wrote in message
    news:zr9wkbhinzw6.8vqq7nymmw18$...
    > On Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:03:11 +1200, Alan wrote:
    >
    >> "Warwick" <> wrote in message
    >> news:6ryisjynp7yk.hwahqquu0uus$...
    >>> The tale of two elephants was something I learnt about way back
    >>> when
    >>> I was
    >>> in engineering school. Take half the period of a sine wave that
    >>> looks like
    >>> a frown. Elephant one. Put it on a graph. The y axis represents
    >>> time/effort/money the x axis is time. We call this elephant
    >>> research
    >>> and
    >>> developement. Things start slownly reach a peak then tail off.
    >>> Then
    >>> we get
    >>> another one exactly the same and call it marketing/sales. Elephant
    >>> 2. It is
    >>> at the end of the r@d elephant that all the technical issues have
    >>> been
    >>> resolved and it is time to set standards. Ideally the two
    >>> elephants
    >>> should
    >>> have a space in between them, but invariably the marketing one
    >>> creeps
    >>> closer to the R&D one. If it gets too close it becomes too late to
    >>> set the
    >>> correct standards and we wind up with a mess.
    >>>
    >>> It is a well known problem in the computer industry which predates
    >>> cell
    >>> phones by a decade or two at least. I have got myself in a spot of
    >>> legal
    >>> bother and need to print off the texts on my phone. I have been
    >>> trying to
    >>> pair it with a macbook. What a **** up. The two elephants have
    >>> collided
    >>> very badly in the cell phone industry. There are no standards for
    >>> the
    >>> simplest things like the charger connections of how to lay out a
    >>> keyboard.
    >>> Even if I can get this up and running (which I doubt) I will have
    >>> to
    >>> print
    >>> each message individually instead of dumping a folder (or better
    >>> the
    >>> entire
    >>> memory) onto the pc.
    >>>
    >>> Having tried the exercise I wish merely to accuse telcos and cell
    >>> phone
    >>> manufactureres of gross incompetence. They have ignored a well
    >>> documented
    >>> problem and actually fucked things up for everybody. Idiots. And
    >>> bluetooth
    >>> fucking sucks. Awful.
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> cheers

    >>
    >> Hi Warwick,
    >>
    >> You don't mention what phone, so difficult to help, but with our
    >> Nokia's (all current models that we have - they are all S60v3 I
    >> think), you can just copy all of the txts in one go to a text file
    >> on
    >> your PC.
    >>
    >> Just connect any way you like (I can do it via USB, BlueTooth,
    >> InfraRed (!), WLAN, or GPRS) depending on your phone. I tend to
    >> use
    >> BT as it is just there and no cables to worry about, but USB or
    >> WLAN
    >> is faster
    >>
    >> I export in CSV format and it becomes easily filterable in
    >> excel or whatever.
    >>
    >> The fields I get are (there are no headers so my names):
    >>
    >> sms type
    >> deliver status
    >> phone number
    >> date and time
    >> text of the msg
    >>
    >> Nothing flash then, but usable
    >>
    >> Some (most) models of phone might be more 'closed' than Symbian,
    >> but I
    >> would expect WinMobile to be just as easy. You might have to look
    >> harder with BB, but I would have thought it is still possible on
    >> just
    >> about anything if your motivation is great enough.
    >>
    >>
    >> HTH,
    >>
    >> Alan.

    >
    > That is helpful thank-you Alan. Phone is a Samsung tho. I can
    > transfer
    > photos etc easily via bluetooth but the sms's will not transfer
    > unless it
    > sees a bluetooth printer.
    >


    What OS does your specific model run though?


    >
    > Maybe I can talk the Macbook into spoofing itself
    > as a bluetooth printer (whatever the hell that is) and printing them
    > to
    > file.
    >


    I don't think that is the sort of thing Apple would let you do with
    their machine?

    You might be able to hack it open I guess - I have no idea though.


    >
    > But I need to get hold of vodafone anyway and get them to pull the
    > messages off their server. They have no evidentiary value in court
    > otherwise. Probably inadmissable.
    >


    Almost certainly - you would 'contaminate' the chain of custody ;-)

    I have no idea how long messages are kept on the Vodafone (or anyone
    else's) server or what they might charge if you just ask, versus a
    court initiated request.

    Good luck!


    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
     
    Alan, Aug 11, 2009
    #20
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