The eternal plastic versus metal debate

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, Mar 6, 2011.

  1. RichA

    RichA Guest

    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=37898881&changemode=1

    Notice that one of these people is so brainwashed they even think
    nothing is made of all metal nowadays? Probably a consummate Walmart
    shopper.

    Fact is, metal is still superior and in no case inferior. Yes, there
    are all metal products still available either because they need metal
    to withstand whatever it is they are being used for or, people simply
    equate metal construction with higher quality. Despite the FACT
    prices for base metals have skyrocketed in the past three years thanks
    to INCREASED demand for metal.
    But two outrageous lies still persists in the photo realm:
    1. That plastic can be as strong as metal.
    2. That plastic stays cooler in the sun.

    The kind of plastic you can get that will stand up to "some" things
    metal will stand up to will never be found in cameras. The composites
    in question are too expensive to fabricate for use in consumer cameras
    and do NOT lend themselves to complex shapes. Flat fighter jet wing
    panels, yes. Convoluted camera body, no. You'll have to live with
    basic polycarbonate or "glass-filled" polycarbonate for camera
    bodies. BTW, glass-filling is often just to save money and is rarely
    any stronger than pure polycarbonate, another lie dispelled.

    Plastic does NOT stay cooler in the sun than metal. Though plastic
    transmits heat more slowly than metal, the paint used on plastic or
    internal colouring (mostly black) is FAR more absorbant of IR
    radadiation than the paint or anodizing used on metal-bodied cameras.
    Anyone with a $30 IR temperature tester can verify that. Once the
    heat is transfused into the plastic, it is also dissipated much more
    slowly than metal. Worse yet, plastic's expansion and contraction
    with temperature change is often 10x worse than metal, meaning that
    strict tolerances in cameras can't be maintained. It will be
    interesting to test one of the new coloured plastic cameras to see if
    anything has changed.
    RichA, Mar 6, 2011
    #1
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  2. RichA

    Rich Guest

    On Mar 6, 12:32 pm, George Kerby <> wrote:
    > On 3/6/11 10:16 AM, in article
    > , "RichA"
    >
    >
    >
    > <> wrote:
    > >http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=378...
    > > ngemode=1

    >
    > > Notice that one of these people is so brainwashed they even think
    > > nothing is made of all metal nowadays?  Probably a consummate Walmart
    > > shopper.

    >
    > > Fact is, metal is still superior and in no case inferior.  Yes, there
    > > are all metal products still available either because they need metal
    > > to withstand whatever it is they are being used for or, people simply
    > > equate metal construction with higher quality.  Despite the FACT
    > > prices for base metals have skyrocketed in the past three years thanks
    > > to INCREASED demand for metal.
    > > But two outrageous lies still persists in the photo realm:
    > > 1.  That plastic can be as strong as metal.
    > > 2.  That plastic stays cooler in the sun.

    >
    > > The kind of plastic you can get that will stand up to "some" things
    > > metal will stand up to will never be found in cameras.  The composites
    > > in question are too expensive to fabricate for use in consumer cameras
    > > and do NOT lend themselves to complex shapes.  Flat fighter jet wing
    > > panels, yes.  Convoluted camera body, no.  You'll have to live with
    > > basic polycarbonate or "glass-filled" polycarbonate for camera
    > > bodies.  BTW, glass-filling is often just to save money and is rarely
    > > any stronger than pure polycarbonate, another lie dispelled.

    >
    > > Plastic does NOT stay cooler in the sun than metal.  Though plastic
    > > transmits heat more slowly than metal, the paint used on plastic or
    > > internal colouring (mostly black) is FAR more absorbant of IR
    > > radadiation than the paint or anodizing used on metal-bodied cameras.
    > > Anyone with a $30 IR temperature tester can verify that.  Once the
    > > heat is transfused into the plastic, it is also dissipated much more
    > > slowly than metal.  Worse yet, plastic's expansion and contraction
    > > with temperature change is often 10x worse than metal, meaning that
    > > strict tolerances in cameras can't be maintained.  It will be
    > > interesting to test one of the new coloured plastic cameras to see if
    > > anything has changed.

    >
    > Folks, can we say "anal retentive"?


    Yes, "folks," comrades, PLEAAASSSEEE validate my opinion and make me
    feel like I'm part of a team!!!!
    P-ath-et-ic.
    Rich, Mar 6, 2011
    #2
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  3. RichA

    Mike Guest

    On 06/03/2011 23:34, Savageduck wrote:
    > On 2011-03-06 14:40:26 -0800, Eric Stevens <> said:
    >
    >> On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 08:16:23 -0800 (PST), RichA <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=37898881&changemode=1
    >>>

    >
    > Notice
    >>>
    >>> that one of these people is so brainwashed they even think
    >>> nothing is made of all metal nowadays? Probably a consummate Walmart
    >>> shopper.
    >>>
    >>> Fact is, metal is still superior and in no case inferior. Yes, there
    >>> are all metal products still available either because they need metal
    >>> to withstand whatever it is they are being used for or, people simply
    >>> equate metal construction with higher quality. Despite the FACT
    >>> prices for base metals have skyrocketed in the past three years thanks
    >>> to INCREASED demand for metal.
    >>> But two outrageous lies still persists in the photo realm:
    >>> 1. That plastic can be as strong as metal.
    >>> 2. That plastic stays cooler in the sun.
    >>>
    >>> The kind of plastic you can get that will stand up to "some" things
    >>> metal will stand up to will never be found in cameras. The composites
    >>> in question are too expensive to fabricate for use in consumer cameras
    >>> and do NOT lend themselves to complex shapes. Flat fighter jet wing
    >>> panels, yes. Convoluted camera body, no. You'll have to live with
    >>> basic polycarbonate or "glass-filled" polycarbonate for camera
    >>> bodies. BTW, glass-filling is often just to save money and is rarely
    >>> any stronger than pure polycarbonate, another lie dispelled.
    >>>
    >>> Plastic does NOT stay cooler in the sun than metal. Though plastic
    >>> transmits heat more slowly than metal, the paint used on plastic or
    >>> internal colouring (mostly black) is FAR more absorbant of IR
    >>> radadiation than the paint or anodizing used on metal-bodied cameras.
    >>> Anyone with a $30 IR temperature tester can verify that. Once the
    >>> heat is transfused into the plastic, it is also dissipated much more
    >>> slowly than metal. Worse yet, plastic's expansion and contraction
    >>> with temperature change is often 10x worse than metal, meaning that
    >>> strict tolerances in cameras can't be maintained. It will be
    >>> interesting to test one of the new coloured plastic cameras to see if
    >>> anything has changed.

    >>
    >> What an uninformed diatribe!
    >>
    >> There are no typical properties for a typical metal. There are only
    >> specific properties for specific metals and it is these which
    >> structures are designed around: a structure to suit both the material
    >> and the application.
    >>
    >> Note that: the structure has to suit both the material and the
    >> application.
    >>
    >> There is no reason why the material has to be metal. What is used and
    >> how well it is used is up to the designer.
    >>
    >> As far as what happens to them when you leave them in the sun, the
    >> electronics in the camera are likely to have given up working before
    >> temperatures are reached where it may make a difference whether the
    >> camera is made of plastic or metal. Just a little hotter and the
    >> temperature will excite thermal runaway in a lithium-ion battery.
    >>
    >> Rich needs counselling.
    >>
    >> Regards,
    >>
    >> Eric Stevens

    >
    > I have the solution.
    >
    > Just wrap your camera in this fine structurally sound metal cladding.
    > < http://touchtresbien.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/aluminum-foil.jpg >
    >
    >


    Hmmmm shiny toys.

    It would help with the damaging effects of solar gain, don't forget to
    wrap that expensive glass too.

    Can you make a matching bag?

    All joking aside, I find the best material to prevent equipment damage
    from drops is nylon, at least that what I think my strap is made of.

    Mike
    Mike, Mar 7, 2011
    #3
  4. RichA

    Rich Guest

    On Mar 6, 5:40 pm, Eric Stevens <> wrote:
    > On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 08:16:23 -0800 (PST), RichA <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > >http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=378...

    >
    > >Notice that one of these people is so brainwashed they even think
    > >nothing is made of all metal nowadays?  Probably a consummate Walmart
    > >shopper.

    >
    > >Fact is, metal is still superior and in no case inferior.  Yes, there
    > >are all metal products still available either because they need metal
    > >to withstand whatever it is they are being used for or, people simply
    > >equate metal construction with higher quality.  Despite the FACT
    > >prices for base metals have skyrocketed in the past three years thanks
    > >to INCREASED demand for metal.
    > >But two outrageous lies still persists in the photo realm:
    > >1.  That plastic can be as strong as metal.
    > >2.  That plastic stays cooler in the sun.

    >
    > >The kind of plastic you can get that will stand up to "some" things
    > >metal will stand up to will never be found in cameras.  The composites
    > >in question are too expensive to fabricate for use in consumer cameras
    > >and do NOT lend themselves to complex shapes.  Flat fighter jet wing
    > >panels, yes.  Convoluted camera body, no.  You'll have to live with
    > >basic polycarbonate or "glass-filled" polycarbonate for camera
    > >bodies.  BTW, glass-filling is often just to save money and is rarely
    > >any stronger than pure polycarbonate, another lie dispelled.

    >
    > >Plastic does NOT stay cooler in the sun than metal.  Though plastic
    > >transmits heat more slowly than metal, the paint used on plastic or
    > >internal colouring (mostly black) is FAR more absorbant of IR
    > >radadiation than the paint or anodizing used on metal-bodied cameras.
    > >Anyone with a $30 IR temperature tester can verify that.  Once the
    > >heat is transfused into the plastic, it is also dissipated much more
    > >slowly than metal.  Worse yet, plastic's expansion and contraction
    > >with temperature change is often 10x worse than metal, meaning that
    > >strict tolerances in cameras can't be maintained.  It will be
    > >interesting to test one of the new coloured plastic cameras to see if
    > >anything has changed.

    >
    > What an uninformed diatribe!


    TESTED, by me. BTW, another horror observed the other day. A lens
    with s--- plastic internals actually had part of a baffle MELTED by
    the sun. With plastic, this can happen in seconds if the sun is
    anywhere in the field.
    Rich, Mar 8, 2011
    #4
  5. RichA

    Rich Guest

    On Mar 6, 11:20 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    > On 2011-03-06 19:23:46 -0800, Eric Stevens <> said:
    >
    > > On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 15:34:03 -0800, Savageduck
    > > <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

    >
    > >> On 2011-03-06 14:40:26 -0800, Eric Stevens <> said:
    > >> ..........

    >
    > <<Le Snip>>
    >
    >
    >
    > >> ...Rich needs counselling.

    >
    > >>> Regards,

    >
    > >>> Eric Stevens

    >
    > >> I have the solution.

    >
    > >> Just wrap your camera in this fine structurally sound metal cladding.
    > >> <http://touchtresbien.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/aluminum-foil.jpg>

    >
    > > It might be better to wrap Rich's head.

    >
    > > Regards,

    >
    > > Eric Stevens

    >
    > It is quite possible he has already made the hat.
    >
    > --
    > Regards,
    >
    > Savageduck


    Morons. Aluminum doesn't screen out radio waves effectively,
    especially thin gauge aluminum. More scientific illiteracy showing on
    your part.
    Rich, Mar 8, 2011
    #5
  6. "Eric Stevens" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:08:47 -0800 (PST), Rich <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>On Mar 6, 11:20 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >>> On 2011-03-06 19:23:46 -0800, Eric Stevens <>
    >>> said:
    >>>
    >>> > On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 15:34:03 -0800, Savageduck
    >>> > <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >>>
    >>> >> On 2011-03-06 14:40:26 -0800, Eric Stevens <>
    >>> >> said:
    >>> >> ..........
    >>>
    >>> <<Le Snip>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> >> ...Rich needs counselling.
    >>>
    >>> >>> Regards,
    >>>
    >>> >>> Eric Stevens
    >>>
    >>> >> I have the solution.
    >>>
    >>> >> Just wrap your camera in this fine structurally sound metal
    >>> >> cladding.
    >>> >> <http://touchtresbien.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/aluminum-foil.jpg>
    >>>
    >>> > It might be better to wrap Rich's head.
    >>>
    >>> > Regards,
    >>>
    >>> > Eric Stevens
    >>>
    >>> It is quite possible he has already made the hat.
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> Regards,
    >>>
    >>> Savageduck

    >>
    >>Morons. Aluminum doesn't screen out radio waves effectively,
    >>especially thin gauge aluminum. More scientific illiteracy showing on
    >>your part.

    >
    > That's why they use aluminium foil to shield USB and similar
    > high-speed data cables.
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Eric Stevens


    Obviously never heard of skin-depth...

    David
    David J Taylor, Mar 8, 2011
    #6
  7. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Mar 8, 8:43 am, Eric Stevens <> wrote:
    > On Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:08:47 -0800 (PST), Rich <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > >On Mar 6, 11:20 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    > >> On 2011-03-06 19:23:46 -0800, Eric Stevens <> said:

    >
    > >> > On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 15:34:03 -0800, Savageduck
    > >> > <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

    >
    > >> >> On 2011-03-06 14:40:26 -0800, Eric Stevens <>said:
    > >> >> ..........

    >
    > >> <<Le Snip>>

    >
    > >> >> ...Rich needs counselling.

    >
    > >> >>> Regards,

    >
    > >> >>> Eric Stevens

    >
    > >> >> I have the solution.

    >
    > >> >> Just wrap your camera in this fine structurally sound metal cladding.
    > >> >> <http://touchtresbien.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/aluminum-foil.jpg>

    >
    > >> > It might be better to wrap Rich's head.

    >
    > >> > Regards,

    >
    > >> > Eric Stevens

    >
    > >> It is quite possible he has already made the hat.

    >
    > >> --
    > >> Regards,

    >
    > >> Savageduck

    >
    > >Morons.  Aluminum doesn't screen out radio waves effectively,
    > >especially thin gauge aluminum.  More scientific illiteracy showing on
    > >your part.

    >
    > That's why they use aluminium foil to shield USB and similar
    > high-speed data cables.


    I thought they used it because it was cheaper than copper foil :-0
    Then again in Milton Keynes they used it for data too and that caused
    problems
    in that the speed of data transmission was much slower than it would
    have been with copper. IIRC.


    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Eric Stevens
    Whisky-dave, Mar 8, 2011
    #7
  8. RichA

    Peter N Guest

    On Mon, 07 Mar 2011 16:23:46 +1300, Eric Stevens
    <> wrote:
    > On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 15:34:03 -0800, Savageduck
    > <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:



    > >On 2011-03-06 14:40:26 -0800, Eric Stevens

    <> said:
    > >
    > >> On Sun, 6 Mar 2011 08:16:23 -0800 (PST), RichA

    <>
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>

    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=37898
    881&changemode=1
    > >
    > >Notice
    > >>>
    > >>> that one of these people is so brainwashed they even think
    > >>> nothing is made of all metal nowadays? Probably a consummate

    Walmart
    > >>> shopper.
    > >>>
    > >>> Fact is, metal is still superior and in no case inferior. Yes,

    there
    > >>> are all metal products still available either because they need

    metal
    > >>> to withstand whatever it is they are being used for or, people

    simply
    > >>> equate metal construction with higher quality. Despite the FACT
    > >>> prices for base metals have skyrocketed in the past three years

    thanks
    > >>> to INCREASED demand for metal.
    > >>> But two outrageous lies still persists in the photo realm:
    > >>> 1. That plastic can be as strong as metal.
    > >>> 2. That plastic stays cooler in the sun.
    > >>>
    > >>> The kind of plastic you can get that will stand up to "some"

    things
    > >>> metal will stand up to will never be found in cameras. The

    composites
    > >>> in question are too expensive to fabricate for use in consumer

    cameras
    > >>> and do NOT lend themselves to complex shapes. Flat fighter jet

    wing
    > >>> panels, yes. Convoluted camera body, no. You'll have to live

    with
    > >>> basic polycarbonate or "glass-filled" polycarbonate for camera
    > >>> bodies. BTW, glass-filling is often just to save money and is

    rarely
    > >>> any stronger than pure polycarbonate, another lie dispelled.
    > >>>
    > >>> Plastic does NOT stay cooler in the sun than metal. Though

    plastic
    > >>> transmits heat more slowly than metal, the paint used on

    plastic or
    > >>> internal colouring (mostly black) is FAR more absorbant of IR
    > >>> radadiation than the paint or anodizing used on metal-bodied

    cameras.
    > >>> Anyone with a $30 IR temperature tester can verify that. Once

    the
    > >>> heat is transfused into the plastic, it is also dissipated much

    more
    > >>> slowly than metal. Worse yet, plastic's expansion and

    contraction
    > >>> with temperature change is often 10x worse than metal, meaning

    that
    > >>> strict tolerances in cameras can't be maintained. It will be
    > >>> interesting to test one of the new coloured plastic cameras to

    see if
    > >>> anything has changed.
    > >>
    > >> What an uninformed diatribe!
    > >>
    > >> There are no typical properties for a typical metal. There are

    only
    > >> specific properties for specific metals and it is these which
    > >> structures are designed around: a structure to suit both the

    material
    > >> and the application.
    > >>
    > >> Note that: the structure has to suit both the material and the
    > >> application.
    > >>
    > >> There is no reason why the material has to be metal. What is

    used and
    > >> how well it is used is up to the designer.
    > >>
    > >> As far as what happens to them when you leave them in the sun,

    the
    > >> electronics in the camera are likely to have given up working

    before
    > >> temperatures are reached where it may make a difference whether

    the
    > >> camera is made of plastic or metal. Just a little hotter and the
    > >> temperature will excite thermal runaway in a lithium-ion battery.
    > >>
    > >> Rich needs counselling.
    > >>
    > >> Regards,
    > >>
    > >> Eric Stevens

    > >
    > >I have the solution.
    > >
    > >Just wrap your camera in this fine structurally sound metal

    cladding.
    > ><

    http://touchtresbien.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/aluminum-foil.jpg
    >



    > It might be better to wrap Rich's head.



    Wouldn't do any good. He talks out of his ass.

    --
    from my Droid
    Peter N, Mar 9, 2011
    #8
    1. Advertising

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