The Demise of Cheap VOIP

Discussion in 'VOIP' started by pjsmoot@hotmail.com, May 9, 2005.

  1. Guest

    John Dvorak has an article entitled "The Coming Death of Cheap VOIP" in
    PC Magazine's May 24th, 2005 issue. He mentions that the telcos will
    soon sniff out Skype-like traffic on their networks, and make it
    unusable, thereby forcing you to use the telco's VOIP service, or none
    at all.

    Rather than debate the accuracy of what Dvorak said, I was wondering if
    any of you truly tech-savvy guys know whether there are ways to get
    around such technical roadblocks (such as encrypting VOIP traffic?).
    Thanks.
     
    , May 9, 2005
    #1
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  2. R-Guy Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > John Dvorak has an article entitled "The Coming Death of Cheap VOIP" in
    > PC Magazine's May 24th, 2005 issue. He mentions that the telcos will
    > soon sniff out Skype-like traffic on their networks, and make it
    > unusable, thereby forcing you to use the telco's VOIP service, or none
    > at all.
    >
    > Rather than debate the accuracy of what Dvorak said, I was wondering if
    > any of you truly tech-savvy guys know whether there are ways to get
    > around such technical roadblocks (such as encrypting VOIP traffic?).
    > Thanks.
    >


    Not all ISPs are telcos - I would just switch to an Internet provider that
    doesn't play games.
     
    R-Guy, May 9, 2005
    #2
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  3. wkearney99 Guest

    > > He mentions that the telcos will
    > > soon sniff out Skype-like traffic on their networks, and make it
    > > unusable, thereby forcing you to use the telco's VOIP service, or none
    > > at all.

    >
    > Not all ISPs are telcos - I would just switch to an Internet provider that
    > doesn't play games.


    Correct. When ISPs have attempted to block only certain forms of traffic
    their customers leave. That and the courts have ruled against ISPs that
    have tried forcing it on customers. Basically, the market rules and
    customers will walk if their supplier tries fucking with them.
     
    wkearney99, May 9, 2005
    #3
  4. Cloaked Guest

    Well you have to have a high-speed connection to make VOIP work.

    I used to be with Telus for ADSL service. But what is the point of
    switching to VOIP - which Telus does NOT offer - if you still have to
    maintain a POTS line to get your ADSL (and get your VOIP)????

    I have switched to Shaw for high speed bundled with Cable. I have
    connected to a VOIP provider, and sent the "Port" request for my phone
    number.

    Telus does not need to worry about blocking my VOIP traffic any more.
    Within 3 to 4 weeks, Telus will no longer provide me with ANY form of
    service. :)

    The reconfiguration and switch is a net saving of between $45 to $65
    per month. This is too large a figure to ignore. AND I get better long
    distance rates with my VOIP provider than I EVER did with Telus.

    The death of cheap VOIP is likely to come when Telus and other telcos
    start bitching and the damn government steps in and starts
    "regualting" them. This will drive up the costs for the VOIP service
    providers, and they are more than likely to pass on those costs.

    What we need to do is pay atttention, and when the government starts
    considering regualtion - wirte EVERYONE! Write the CRTC and tell them
    to f-off and leave VOIP alone, write your MP and tell him or her that
    you DO NOT WANT government involvement in this industry any more.

    Regulation was required when telephony was a scarce resource. This is
    no longer true. The original reasons for regulation no longer exist.
    Ongoing government interference in the market place is not welcome,
    and unless you tell them so - LOUDLY - then it is only a matter of
    time before they try to find a way to screw the VOIP providers at the
    hands of telcos who refuse to step out from behind the shield and
    compete in an open market.

    Just my $0.02


    On 8 May 2005 16:43:51 -0700, wrote:

    >John Dvorak has an article entitled "The Coming Death of Cheap VOIP" in
    >PC Magazine's May 24th, 2005 issue. He mentions that the telcos will
    >soon sniff out Skype-like traffic on their networks, and make it
    >unusable, thereby forcing you to use the telco's VOIP service, or none
    >at all.
    >
    >Rather than debate the accuracy of what Dvorak said, I was wondering if
    >any of you truly tech-savvy guys know whether there are ways to get
    >around such technical roadblocks (such as encrypting VOIP traffic?).
    >Thanks.
    >
     
    Cloaked, May 9, 2005
    #4
  5. John Nelson Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > John Dvorak has an article entitled "The Coming Death of Cheap VOIP" in
    > PC Magazine's May 24th, 2005 issue. He mentions that the telcos will
    > soon sniff out Skype-like traffic on their networks, and make it
    > unusable, thereby forcing you to use the telco's VOIP service, or none
    > at all.
    >
    > Rather than debate the accuracy of what Dvorak said, I was wondering if
    > any of you truly tech-savvy guys know whether there are ways to get
    > around such technical roadblocks (such as encrypting VOIP traffic?).
    > Thanks.


    Well..., given that the FCC recently fined a telco $15,000 and ordered
    them to STOP blocking VOIP traffic on their IP networks, I would have to
    say that ol' John has some 'splainin' to do. Perhaps he knows of some
    pending regulatory changes that will reflect a 180 degree change in the
    current path the FCC is following.

    And yes, there most certainly are ways around this.
     
    John Nelson, May 9, 2005
    #5
  6. wkearney99 Guest

    > Regulation was required when telephony was a scarce resource. This is
    > no longer true. The original reasons for regulation no longer exist.


    Bullshit. Tell that to the family living out in the middle of nowhere.
    Someone's got to maintain the copper wiring plant for their basic phone
    services. That's a direct result of regulation and should continue.

    To blindly call it 'interference' shows a distinct lack of understanding
    about the entire range of issues.
     
    wkearney99, May 10, 2005
    #6
  7. PJ Guest

    John Nelson wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > says...
    > > John Dvorak has an article entitled "The Coming Death of Cheap

    VOIP" in
    > > PC Magazine's May 24th, 2005 issue. He mentions that the telcos

    will
    > > soon sniff out Skype-like traffic on their networks, and make it
    > > unusable, thereby forcing you to use the telco's VOIP service, or

    none
    > > at all.
    > >
    > > Rather than debate the accuracy of what Dvorak said, I was

    wondering if
    > > any of you truly tech-savvy guys know whether there are ways to get
    > > around such technical roadblocks (such as encrypting VOIP

    traffic?).
    > > Thanks.

    >
    > Well..., given that the FCC recently fined a telco $15,000 and

    ordered
    > them to STOP blocking VOIP traffic on their IP networks, I would have

    to
    > say that ol' John has some 'splainin' to do. Perhaps he knows of some


    > pending regulatory changes that will reflect a 180 degree change in

    the
    > current path the FCC is following.
    >
    > And yes, there most certainly are ways around this.


    Could you give just a hint of the general categories of what those ways
    might be? Like 1.) Encryption of VOIP traffic. , 2.) Encapsulation of
    VOIP traffic inside another protocol (L2TP ?). , ....
     
    PJ, May 10, 2005
    #7
  8. "wkearney99" <> writes:

    >> Regulation was required when telephony was a scarce resource. This is
    >> no longer true. The original reasons for regulation no longer exist.

    >
    >Bullshit. Tell that to the family living out in the middle of nowhere.
    >Someone's got to maintain the copper wiring plant for their basic phone
    >services. That's a direct result of regulation and should continue.


    As I recall, in exchange for their *monopoly* the telcos agreed to wire
    everything, and were then permitted to recover the costs of wiring 'out
    of the way' places from the entire subscriber base.

    I don't believe that a telephone, or the internet, is a 'basic human right'
    that should be guaranteed to everyone by regulation and paid for by all
    users of the system.

    There's a fundamental difference between ensuring basic food, shelted
    and access to health care and providing a telephone and/or internet
    services.

    >To blindly call it 'interference' shows a distinct lack of understanding
    >about the entire range of issues.


    Yes, it's a complex issue. But I haven't seen a convincing argument
    as to why the government should guarantee everyone telephone and
    internet access, and spread the costs across the entire population.

    -Stephen
    --
    Space Age Cybernomad Stephen Adams
    (remove SPAM to reply)
     
    Stephen M. Adams, May 10, 2005
    #8
  9. Vox Humana Guest

    "wkearney99" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > > Regulation was required when telephony was a scarce resource. This is
    > > no longer true. The original reasons for regulation no longer exist.

    >
    > Bullshit. Tell that to the family living out in the middle of nowhere.
    > Someone's got to maintain the copper wiring plant for their basic phone
    > services. That's a direct result of regulation and should continue.


    There is always broadband over power line. Virtually everyone has electric
    power and the lines are maintained by the electric company. People in out
    of the way places could eventually get BPL and therefore VOIP. No need for
    the phone company.
    http://slate.msn.com/id/2097131/
     
    Vox Humana, May 10, 2005
    #9
  10. Heimo Hetl Guest

    Vox Humana wrote:

    > There is always broadband over power line. Virtually everyone has
    > electric
    > power and the lines are maintained by the electric company. People in out
    > of the way places could eventually get BPL and therefore VOIP.


    Forget powerline. It doesn't work. (Well, it does work a little. But it is
    susceptible to interference from appliances like microwave ovens and vacuum
    cleaners, and it interferes with everything from shortwave to emergency
    services' radio. It sure sounded like a promising technology some years
    ago, but it just doesn't work.)

    However, regulation in many countries requires ISPs to be service neutral.
    This is the way to go.

    cheers
    Heimo

    --
    l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.
     
    Heimo Hetl, May 10, 2005
    #10
  11. Vox Humana Guest

    "Heimo Hetl" <> wrote in message
    news:Cmage.1735$...
    > Vox Humana wrote:
    >
    > > There is always broadband over power line. Virtually everyone has
    > > electric
    > > power and the lines are maintained by the electric company. People in

    out
    > > of the way places could eventually get BPL and therefore VOIP.

    >
    > Forget powerline. It doesn't work. (Well, it does work a little. But it is
    > susceptible to interference from appliances like microwave ovens and

    vacuum
    > cleaners, and it interferes with everything from shortwave to emergency
    > services' radio. It sure sounded like a promising technology some years
    > ago, but it just doesn't work.)
    >
    > However, regulation in many countries requires ISPs to be service neutral.
    > This is the way to go.
    >

    Yes, it should be neutral. If I pay for an internet connection, it
    shouldn't be any concern of the provider what I transmit as long as it is
    legal.
     
    Vox Humana, May 10, 2005
    #11
  12. wkearney99 Guest


    > I don't believe that a telephone, or the internet, is a 'basic human

    right'
    > that should be guaranteed to everyone by regulation and paid for by all
    > users of the system.


    Spoken like someone that doesn't live in an outlying area.

    > There's a fundamental difference between ensuring basic food, shelted
    > and access to health care and providing a telephone and/or internet
    > services.


    Sure, sure, and screw 'em if they want a 911 call to actually bring someone
    to save them, right?

    > >To blindly call it 'interference' shows a distinct lack of understanding
    > >about the entire range of issues.

    >
    > Yes, it's a complex issue. But I haven't seen a convincing argument
    > as to why the government should guarantee everyone telephone and
    > internet access, and spread the costs across the entire population.


    That you can't be convinced is thankfully different than how the legislators
    understand the complexities.

    The most basic part of the argument is making communication between all
    citizens an equally accessible option. Using regulations to balance the
    provisioning of this works quite well.
     
    wkearney99, May 11, 2005
    #12
  13. Rick Merrill Guest

    Stephen M. Adams wrote:
    ...
    > As I recall, in exchange for their *monopoly* the telcos agreed to wire
    > everything, and were then permitted to recover the costs of wiring 'out
    > of the way' places from the entire subscriber base.
    >
    > I don't believe that a telephone, or the internet, is a 'basic human right'
    > that should be guaranteed to everyone by regulation and paid for by all
    > users of the system.
    >
    > There's a fundamental difference between ensuring basic food, shelted
    > and access to health care and providing a telephone and/or internet
    > services.



    Yer entitled, as they say, to your opinion, BUT in the opinion of
    US courts telephone IS a basic right and cannot be removed without
    "due process" - e.g. if you don't pay they cannot just pull your plug.

    This is the reason that POTS bills cannot be combined with other bills,
    such as cable TV, because the Cable TV CAN be terminated without due
    process.
     
    Rick Merrill, May 11, 2005
    #13
  14. PJ Guest

    Hey threadstealers! Heh, I probably posted to the wrong forum. Would
    anyone know of a forum that is more nitty gritty tech-oriented re:
    VOIP? I'm hoping to find out about the technical ways of getting
    around such blocking by the telcos. Thanks.
     
    PJ, May 11, 2005
    #14
  15. Miguel Cruz Guest

    wkearney99 <> wrote:
    >> I don't believe that a telephone, or the internet, is a 'basic human
    >> right' that should be guaranteed to everyone by regulation and paid for
    >> by all users of the system.

    >
    > Spoken like someone that doesn't live in an outlying area.


    If, God forbid, I ever found myself in an "outlying area", I still wouldn't
    expect that choice to be subsidized. Should everyone pay the same taxi fares
    regardless of where they live?

    >> There's a fundamental difference between ensuring basic food, shelted
    >> and access to health care and providing a telephone and/or internet
    >> services.

    >
    > Sure, sure, and screw 'em if they want a 911 call to actually bring someone
    > to save them, right?


    Cheaper to get them ham radios.

    miguel
    --
    Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
    Latest photos: Queens Day in Amsterdam; the Grand Canyon; Amman, Jordan
     
    Miguel Cruz, May 11, 2005
    #15
  16. Miguel Cruz Guest

    PJ <> wrote:
    > Hey threadstealers! Heh, I probably posted to the wrong forum. Would
    > anyone know of a forum that is more nitty gritty tech-oriented re:
    > VOIP? I'm hoping to find out about the technical ways of getting
    > around such blocking by the telcos. Thanks.


    If they overtly block apparently VoIP traffic, you just make it look like
    something else. Tunnel or whatever.

    If they apply some sort of degradation to all traffic other than their own
    designated VoIP service, there's nothing you can do but switch ISPs (or
    force them to stop by other means).

    There, that's settled. Now let's get back to how everyone living alone on a
    mountaintop is entitled to a subway station.

    miguel
    --
    Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
    Latest photos: Queens Day in Amsterdam; the Grand Canyon; Amman, Jordan
     
    Miguel Cruz, May 11, 2005
    #16
  17. Rick Merrill Guest

    Miguel Cruz wrote:
    > PJ <> wrote:
    >
    >>Hey threadstealers! Heh, I probably posted to the wrong forum. Would
    >>anyone know of a forum that is more nitty gritty tech-oriented re:
    >>VOIP? I'm hoping to find out about the technical ways of getting
    >>around such blocking by the telcos. Thanks.

    >
    >
    > If they overtly block apparently VoIP traffic, you just make it look like
    > something else. Tunnel or whatever.
    >
    > If they apply some sort of degradation to all traffic other than their own
    > designated VoIP service, there's nothing you can do but switch ISPs (or
    > force them to stop by other means).
    >
    > There, that's settled. Now let's get back to how everyone living alone on a
    > mountaintop is entitled to a subway station.
    >
    > miguel


    That's a straw horse if I ever saw one. There is no right to a cell
    phone nor to a voip phone.
     
    Rick Merrill, May 11, 2005
    #17
  18. Re: rural service, was The Demise of Cheap VOIP

    >If, God forbid, I ever found myself in an "outlying area", I still
    >wouldn't expect that choice to be subsidized. Should everyone pay the
    >same taxi fares regardless of where they live?


    The point behind universal service is that the more people you can
    call, the more useful your phone is. Providing service to people in
    the boondocks makes the phones of people in cities more valuable
    because they can now call their rustic friends and relatives.

    I entirely agree that the administration of USF is screwed up, and
    there are a lot better ways to serve very rural areas than spending
    $10K to run a pair of copper wires 50 miles across the wilderness, but
    the basic network effect is sound.

    R's,
    John
     
    John R. Levine, May 11, 2005
    #18
  19. "wkearney99" <> writes:
    >> I don't believe that a telephone, or the internet, is a 'basic human right'
    >> that should be guaranteed to everyone by regulation and paid for by all
    >> users of the system.

    >
    >Spoken like someone that doesn't live in an outlying area.


    I did for a time. Now, I just escaped broad-band hell, after 10 years.
    The brand new subdivision had no infrastructure for anything more than
    POTS until about a year ago.

    >> There's a fundamental difference between ensuring basic food, shelted
    >> and access to health care and providing a telephone and/or internet
    >> services.

    >
    >Sure, sure, and screw 'em if they want a 911 call to actually bring someone
    >to save them, right?


    And there are no other options that wireline phones, with tens if not
    hundreds of thousands of dollars of cost per line, charged to ALL other
    subscribers?

    Is 911 access now a 'mandatory human right'?

    >>>To blindly call it 'interference' shows a distinct lack of understanding
    >>>about the entire range of issues.

    >>
    >>Yes, it's a complex issue. But I haven't seen a convincing argument
    >>as to why the government should guarantee everyone telephone and
    >>internet access, and spread the costs across the entire population.

    >
    >That you can't be convinced is thankfully different than how the legislators
    >understand the complexities.


    As Plato said, Democracy will turn into dictatorship, and will fail when
    people realize they can vote themselves money from the treasury.

    >The most basic part of the argument is making communication between all
    >citizens an equally accessible option. Using regulations to balance the
    >provisioning of this works quite well.


    Sorry, but 'easy communication' is not a basic human right. It's a luxury.
    The first amendment doesn't require the government to provide you with a
    printing press....or any other means of expressing yourself.

    -Stephen
    --
    Space Age Cybernomad Stephen Adams
    (remove SPAM to reply)
     
    Stephen M. Adams, May 11, 2005
    #19
  20. Rick Merrill <> writes:
    >Stephen M. Adams wrote:
    >..
    >> As I recall, in exchange for their *monopoly* the telcos agreed to wire
    >> everything, and were then permitted to recover the costs of wiring 'out
    >> of the way' places from the entire subscriber base.
    >>
    >> I don't believe that a telephone, or the internet, is a 'basic human right'
    >> that should be guaranteed to everyone by regulation and paid for by all
    >> users of the system.
    >>
    >> There's a fundamental difference between ensuring basic food, shelted
    >> and access to health care and providing a telephone and/or internet
    >> services.

    >
    >Yer entitled, as they say, to your opinion, BUT in the opinion of
    >US courts telephone IS a basic right and cannot be removed without
    >"due process" - e.g. if you don't pay they cannot just pull your plug.


    Yeah, those "we will disconnect you if you don't pay" notices can be
    safely ignored, and you can continue to use your phone forever without
    paying. Not.

    Even utilities like Gas and Electric can be disconnected for non-payment
    during the non-winter months in Illinois, and there is no law requiring
    them to be turned back on before winter starts.

    >This is the reason that POTS bills cannot be combined with other bills,
    >such as cable TV, because the Cable TV CAN be terminated without due
    >process.


    Right. I was imagining things when my ISDN bill and POTS bill came
    together back in the old days. Why SBC offers combined billing for
    satellite, phone and mobile.

    Uh huh.

    -Stephen
    --
    Space Age Cybernomad Stephen Adams
    (remove SPAM to reply)
     
    Stephen M. Adams, May 11, 2005
    #20
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