The beauty of mirrorless cameras

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. RichA

    RichA Guest

    Best to worst:

    10. Fuji X100/X10
    9. Olympus OM-D
    8.5 Fuji X-PRO1
    8.25 Olympus EPL-2
    8. Sony NEX-7
    7.5 Leica X1
    7 Pentax Q
    6.5 Panasonic GX1
    6. Olympus EP-3
    5.75 Panasonic GH2
    5.5 Panasonic G3
    5. Samsung NX200
    4.75 Ricoh GXR
    4.5 Nikon J1
    4.25 Canon G1X
    4. Nikon V1
    3. Panasonic GF3
    1. Pentax K-O1
    RichA, Feb 6, 2012
    #1
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  2. RichA

    Irwell Guest

    On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 13:35:57 -0500, Bowser wrote:

    > On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:26:51 -0800 (PST), RichA <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>Best to worst:
    >>
    >>10. Fuji X100/X10
    >>9. Olympus OM-D
    >>8.5 Fuji X-PRO1
    >>8.25 Olympus EPL-2
    >>8. Sony NEX-7
    >>7.5 Leica X1
    >>7 Pentax Q
    >>6.5 Panasonic GX1
    >>6. Olympus EP-3
    >>5.75 Panasonic GH2
    >>5.5 Panasonic G3
    >>5. Samsung NX200
    >>4.75 Ricoh GXR
    >>4.5 Nikon J1
    >>4.25 Canon G1X
    >>4. Nikon V1
    >>3. Panasonic GF3
    >>1. Pentax K-O1

    >
    > Uh, OK...


    "Beauty and folly are old companions"
    Ben.Franklin.
    Irwell, Feb 7, 2012
    #2
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  3. RichA

    Bruce Guest

    rwalker <> wrote:
    >I really don't get this fascination with mirrorless cameras. I prefer
    >SLRs specifically because I'm looking right through the lens and
    >seeing what film or sensor is seeing. If mirror vibration is
    >potentially a problem, I use a tripod. And I've used SLRs from the
    >Pentax Auto 110 to the Pentax 67 and every size in between.



    How much experience do you have with mirrorless cameras?

    If very little, or none, how can you possibly expect to understand why
    they are so popular?
    Bruce, Feb 8, 2012
    #3
  4. RichA

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, rwalker
    <> wrote:

    > I really don't get this fascination with mirrorless cameras. I prefer
    > SLRs specifically because I'm looking right through the lens and
    > seeing what film or sensor is seeing. If mirror vibration is
    > potentially a problem, I use a tripod. And I've used SLRs from the
    > Pentax Auto 110 to the Pentax 67 and every size in between.


    you don't see the advantages of eliminating the mirror? seriously?
    nospam, Feb 8, 2012
    #4
  5. RichA

    RichA Guest

    On Feb 8, 2:23 pm, rwalker <> wrote:
    > On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 12:59:02 -0800, Irwell <> wrote:
    > >On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 13:35:57 -0500, Bowser wrote:

    >
    > >> On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:26:51 -0800 (PST), RichA <>
    > >> wrote:

    >
    > >>>Best to worst:

    >
    > >>>10.  Fuji X100/X10
    > >>>9.  Olympus OM-D
    > >>>8.5  Fuji X-PRO1
    > >>>8.25 Olympus EPL-2
    > >>>8.  Sony NEX-7
    > >>>7.5 Leica X1
    > >>>7  Pentax Q
    > >>>6.5  Panasonic GX1
    > >>>6.  Olympus EP-3
    > >>>5.75 Panasonic GH2
    > >>>5.5 Panasonic G3
    > >>>5.  Samsung NX200
    > >>>4.75 Ricoh GXR
    > >>>4.5 Nikon J1
    > >>>4.25 Canon G1X
    > >>>4.  Nikon V1
    > >>>3. Panasonic GF3
    > >>>1.  Pentax K-O1

    >
    > >> Uh, OK...

    >
    > >"Beauty and folly are old companions"
    > >Ben.Franklin.

    >
    > I really don't get this fascination with mirrorless cameras.  I prefer
    > SLRs specifically because I'm looking right through the lens and
    > seeing what film or sensor is seeing.  If mirror vibration is
    > potentially a problem, I use a tripod.  And I've used SLRs from the
    > Pentax Auto 110 to the Pentax 67 and every size in between.


    A tripod has little effect (and may make it worse) on mirror slap
    blurring a photo.
    There are literally situations where mirror and shutter slap are bad
    enough so you can't stop them causing problems. Case in point, using
    very long lens with a camera attached. My Nikon D300, even with
    mirror lock-up blurred images with a 1000mm lens on a tripod whereas
    my Panasonic G1 (much less shutter impact) didn't.
    RichA, Feb 9, 2012
    #5
  6. nospam <> wrote:
    > In article <>, rwalker
    > <> wrote:


    >> I really don't get this fascination with mirrorless cameras. I prefer
    >> SLRs specifically because I'm looking right through the lens and
    >> seeing what film or sensor is seeing. If mirror vibration is
    >> potentially a problem, I use a tripod. And I've used SLRs from the
    >> Pentax Auto 110 to the Pentax 67 and every size in between.


    > you don't see the advantages of eliminating the mirror? seriously?


    Not just the mirror, but the entire clockwork caboodle of mirror and
    shutter curtain. No matter how little vibration these cause, it will
    always be possible to choose a focal length beyond which they
    significantly degrade detail resolution. Mirror lock up can avoid
    mirror vibration problems, but you can't escape the vibration of
    opening the mechanical shutter.

    Ok, I should have said "can't easily escape" -- no doubt mounting the
    lens on a granite tripod would help :)

    --
    Chris Malcolm
    Chris Malcolm, Feb 9, 2012
    #6
  7. RichA

    nick c Guest

    Bruce wrote:
    > rwalker <> wrote:
    >> I really don't get this fascination with mirrorless cameras. I prefer
    >> SLRs specifically because I'm looking right through the lens and
    >> seeing what film or sensor is seeing. If mirror vibration is
    >> potentially a problem, I use a tripod. And I've used SLRs from the
    >> Pentax Auto 110 to the Pentax 67 and every size in between.

    >
    >
    > How much experience do you have with mirrorless cameras?
    >
    > If very little, or none, how can you possibly expect to understand why
    > they are so popular?
    >


    I've been content to never having jumped off a bridge tied to a bungee
    cord and I wonder about the mental condition of others think to do that.
    Does that mean I can't question the need or popularity of bungee jumping?
    nick c, Feb 10, 2012
    #7
  8. rwalker <> writes:

    > On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 12:59:02 -0800, Irwell <> wrote:


    > I really don't get this fascination with mirrorless cameras. I prefer
    > SLRs specifically because I'm looking right through the lens and
    > seeing what film or sensor is seeing. If mirror vibration is
    > potentially a problem, I use a tripod. And I've used SLRs from the
    > Pentax Auto 110 to the Pentax 67 and every size in between.


    But that's exactly where live view is better than an optical
    viewfinder -- it shows you what the actual *sensor* is seeing, not just
    what light is coming through the lens. (Also it can be boosted so you
    can see in light you couldn't see in optically.)

    It also shows you 100.00% of the image, much more accurately than an
    optical system can (and many optical viewfinders don't even try for
    100%).

    A pivoting LCD can also let you see the viewfinder from a much wider
    range of angles.

    Using a tripod isn't always possible. Shooting in a club or late-night
    jam session is the sort of thing I do where a tripod isn't usually
    possible, and mirror slap (and any other source of vibration) is a
    serious issue. And tripods don't always solve the problem at
    intermediate speeds -- 1/8 or 1/4, say, depending on resonant
    frequencies.

    They're smaller and lighter than DSLRs, and much more capable than P&S
    (also smaller than some of them).

    The biggest weakness (and they're clearly working to correct this; see
    what Nikon says about their 1 series and Fuji about the latest Pro model
    and Olympus about the OM-D) is AF speed and tracking, which you didn't
    have at all with many of the SLRs you used (none of the ones you
    mentioned have AF). M43 has less good low-light performance than
    exceptional cameras like the D700, but they're competitive with DSLRs in
    their price range.

    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
    David Dyer-Bennet, Feb 10, 2012
    #8
  9. RichA

    Bruce Guest

    nick c <> wrote:

    >Bruce wrote:
    >> rwalker <> wrote:
    >>> I really don't get this fascination with mirrorless cameras. I prefer
    >>> SLRs specifically because I'm looking right through the lens and
    >>> seeing what film or sensor is seeing. If mirror vibration is
    >>> potentially a problem, I use a tripod. And I've used SLRs from the
    >>> Pentax Auto 110 to the Pentax 67 and every size in between.

    >>
    >>
    >> How much experience do you have with mirrorless cameras?
    >>
    >> If very little, or none, how can you possibly expect to understand why
    >> they are so popular?
    >>

    >
    >I've been content to never having jumped off a bridge tied to a bungee
    >cord and I wonder about the mental condition of others think to do that.
    >Does that mean I can't question the need or popularity of bungee jumping?



    If the discussion was about a personal fascination with bungee
    jumping, just as this one is about the fascination of using mirrorless
    cameras, your complete ignorance of that personal fascination would
    disqualify you from being able to make any useful contribution to that
    discussion.

    Have a nice day.
    Bruce, Feb 10, 2012
    #9
  10. rwalker <> writes:

    > On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 21:58:35 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>rwalker <> writes:
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 12:59:02 -0800, Irwell <> wrote:

    >>
    >>> I really don't get this fascination with mirrorless cameras. I prefer
    >>> SLRs specifically because I'm looking right through the lens and
    >>> seeing what film or sensor is seeing. If mirror vibration is
    >>> potentially a problem, I use a tripod. And I've used SLRs from the
    >>> Pentax Auto 110 to the Pentax 67 and every size in between.

    >>
    >>But that's exactly where live view is better than an optical
    >>viewfinder -- it shows you what the actual *sensor* is seeing, not just
    >>what light is coming through the lens. (Also it can be boosted so you
    >>can see in light you couldn't see in optically.)
    >>
    >>It also shows you 100.00% of the image, much more accurately than an
    >>optical system can (and many optical viewfinders don't even try for
    >>100%).
    >>
    >>A pivoting LCD can also let you see the viewfinder from a much wider
    >>range of angles.
    >>
    >>Using a tripod isn't always possible. Shooting in a club or late-night
    >>jam session is the sort of thing I do where a tripod isn't usually
    >>possible, and mirror slap (and any other source of vibration) is a
    >>serious issue. And tripods don't always solve the problem at
    >>intermediate speeds -- 1/8 or 1/4, say, depending on resonant
    >>frequencies.
    >>
    >>They're smaller and lighter than DSLRs, and much more capable than P&S
    >>(also smaller than some of them).
    >>
    >>The biggest weakness (and they're clearly working to correct this; see
    >>what Nikon says about their 1 series and Fuji about the latest Pro model
    >>and Olympus about the OM-D) is AF speed and tracking, which you didn't
    >>have at all with many of the SLRs you used (none of the ones you
    >>mentioned have AF). M43 has less good low-light performance than
    >>exceptional cameras like the D700, but they're competitive with DSLRs in
    >>their price range.

    >
    > Just for the record, I have used AF, and digital SLRs. I mentioned
    > the two I did because they cover the size range.


    I figured you had, and then realized it wasn't explicit, just an
    inference.

    The RB-67 certainly has more mirror slap than smaller cameras!
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
    David Dyer-Bennet, Feb 10, 2012
    #10
  11. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    On 2/7/2012 1:35 PM, Bowser wrote:
    > On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:26:51 -0800 (PST), RichA<>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Best to worst:
    >>
    >> 10. Fuji X100/X10
    >> 9. Olympus OM-D
    >> 8.5 Fuji X-PRO1
    >> 8.25 Olympus EPL-2
    >> 8. Sony NEX-7
    >> 7.5 Leica X1
    >> 7 Pentax Q
    >> 6.5 Panasonic GX1
    >> 6. Olympus EP-3
    >> 5.75 Panasonic GH2
    >> 5.5 Panasonic G3
    >> 5. Samsung NX200
    >> 4.75 Ricoh GXR
    >> 4.5 Nikon J1
    >> 4.25 Canon G1X
    >> 4. Nikon V1
    >> 3. Panasonic GF3
    >> 1. Pentax K-O1

    >
    > Uh, OK...


    Be kind. We all know that he has extensively tested all of them. We all
    understand that this ranking is purely scientific, and made with total
    regard for the fact that all cameras are used for the same purpose.

    --
    Peter
    PeterN, Feb 11, 2012
    #11
  12. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    On 2/7/2012 9:00 PM, Rich wrote:
    <snip>

    >I don't know.


    Perhaps the most factual statement you have ever made.

    --
    Peter
    PeterN, Feb 11, 2012
    #12
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