System Backup & Restore

Discussion in 'Windows 64bit' started by =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=, Oct 3, 2005.

  1. I need to create a backup of my OS & sytem Apps/configurations in Windows x64.

    I thought I had followed the procedures correctly, but when I had a system
    failure and attempted to restore my backup file, it failed. I was forced to
    reinstall Windows & all of my apps and configurations.

    Could someone who uses the Windows backup utility please provide detailed,
    step by step instructions on how to successfully use this utility.
     
    =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=, Oct 3, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Windows Backup made easy by Ed Bott:
    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/setup/learnmore/bott_03july14.mspx
    --
    Andre
    Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com
    Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre
    http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta
    FAQ for MS AntiSpy http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm

    "tmrpro_com" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I need to create a backup of my OS & sytem Apps/configurations in Windows
    >x64.
    >
    > I thought I had followed the procedures correctly, but when I had a system
    > failure and attempted to restore my backup file, it failed. I was forced
    > to
    > reinstall Windows & all of my apps and configurations.
    >
    > Could someone who uses the Windows backup utility please provide detailed,
    > step by step instructions on how to successfully use this utility.
     
    Andre Da Costa [Extended64], Oct 3, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Thanks Andrew .... Although this link is pretty good for simple backup
    solutions ... It's from 2002 and offers alternatives that do not run under
    x64 and unfortunately does not resolve the problem that I having, nor answers
    the question of system backup and restore.

    If I need to restore my 64 bit OS, configurations & Applications drive on
    system that has two active physical SCSI drives (1 w/32 bit XP & the other
    w/64 bit XP), what would be the correct routines to follow for this type of
    backup?

    Would it include the use of ASR?
     
    =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=, Oct 3, 2005
    #3
  4. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you needed help with using the built in Backup tool
    in Windows XP x64.
    --
    Andre
    Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com
    Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre
    http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta
    FAQ for MS AntiSpy http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm

    "tmrpro_com" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Thanks Andrew .... Although this link is pretty good for simple backup
    > solutions ... It's from 2002 and offers alternatives that do not run under
    > x64 and unfortunately does not resolve the problem that I having, nor
    > answers
    > the question of system backup and restore.
    >
    > If I need to restore my 64 bit OS, configurations & Applications drive on
    > system that has two active physical SCSI drives (1 w/32 bit XP & the other
    > w/64 bit XP), what would be the correct routines to follow for this type
    > of
    > backup?
    >
    > Would it include the use of ASR?
     
    Andre Da Costa [Extended64], Oct 3, 2005
    #4
  5. <i>"Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you needed help with using the built in Backup
    tool
    in Windows XP x64."</i>

    I do need help with the Backup tool in Windows XP x64, but the article that
    you provided does not address my specific needs...

    I have a feeling that I'm going to need an advanced support request...
     
    =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=, Oct 3, 2005
    #5
  6. =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=

    cristalink Guest

    So you have two HDDs, one for 32bit and another for 64bit. The below applies
    to Microsoft Backup (NTBackup).

    If you boot from the same drive all the time (say, you always have C:\Win64
    and D:\Win32, and only C: contains ntldr, boot.ini etc), then it would be
    enough to select "Save All Info On This Computer", preferably from 64bit.
    When you perform an ASR restore (again, with 64bit), then both of your
    systems will be correctly restored.

    It becomes more complicated if you boot from different drives - ie each
    drive has its own boot sector, ntldr, boot.ini etc.

    In any case, you need to test your backup to make sure it works as expected.

    --
    http://www.firestreamer.com
    Use Microsoft Backup with DVD, HDD, Iomega REV,
    encryption, compression, x64, IA-64, more!


    "tmrpro_com" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Thanks Andrew .... Although this link is pretty good for simple backup
    > solutions ... It's from 2002 and offers alternatives that do not run under
    > x64 and unfortunately does not resolve the problem that I having, nor
    > answers
    > the question of system backup and restore.
    >
    > If I need to restore my 64 bit OS, configurations & Applications drive on
    > system that has two active physical SCSI drives (1 w/32 bit XP & the other
    > w/64 bit XP), what would be the correct routines to follow for this type
    > of
    > backup?
    >
    > Would it include the use of ASR?
     
    cristalink, Oct 3, 2005
    #6
  7. "cristalink" wrote:

    > So you have two HDDs, one for 32bit and another for 64bit. The below applies
    > to Microsoft Backup (NTBackup).


    Yes. Both independent OS drives are SCSI. Both drive's setups have the same
    applications duplicated except Windows x64 has two less applications that
    won't run at all under x64, so they have been excluded from the x64
    installation.

    Also, it should be pointed out that this system has an additional 2 IDE
    drives and a SATA RAID 0 array with 2 WD Raptor drives.

    > It becomes more complicated if you boot from different drives - ie each
    > drive has its own boot sector, ntldr, boot.ini etc.


    I know ... that is why I'm here ... LoL ...This is what I do.... Yes, each
    drive has its own boot sector, etc.

    Does this mean that I should physically disable the SCSI drive that houses
    the 32 bit OS, remove it from the system and then create a backup using;
    "Save All Info On This Computer"?

    > In any case, you need to test your backup to make sure it works as expected.


    I tried this, it failed and destoyed both OSs on both drives... THat's
    another reason I'm here...

    Ouch.... how do I do this without destroying my setups? ... I have a very
    complicated multimedia production system that requires a totally custom OS,
    Applications & Configurations setup. There is no restore disk or anything of
    the sort... Which is the primary reason I would like to have a recovery
    method similar to the method I use on the 32 bit boot drive using Ghost as an
    imaging tool to create a system backup.

    .... FYI .... Ghost 9.0 does not work with Windows x64
     
    =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=, Oct 4, 2005
    #7
  8. =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=

    cristalink Guest

    Why do you need to switch between two boot drives? Why don't you boot from
    the same drive and use the Windows boot menu? I think that would be easier
    than switching the drives.

    > Ouch.... how do I do this without destroying my setups?


    I'm afraid there is no way except of installing a spare set of HDD or using
    another PC.

    > Yes, each drive has its own boot sector, etc.


    In this configuration, it would be easier to use Ghost. With NTBackup, you
    need to do ASR twice, for 32 and 64.

    > I use on the 32 bit boot drive using Ghost as an
    > imaging tool to create a system backup.
    >
    > ... FYI .... Ghost 9.0 does not work with Windows x64


    Then why don't you run Ghost from within 32bit to save all your drives,
    including 64bit? Ghost doesn't care what's on the drive...


    --
    http://www.firestreamer.com
    Use Microsoft Backup with DVD, HDD, Iomega REV,
    encryption, compression, x64, IA-64, more!


    "tmrpro_com" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > "cristalink" wrote:
    >
    >> So you have two HDDs, one for 32bit and another for 64bit. The below
    >> applies
    >> to Microsoft Backup (NTBackup).

    >
    > Yes. Both independent OS drives are SCSI. Both drive's setups have the
    > same
    > applications duplicated except Windows x64 has two less applications that
    > won't run at all under x64, so they have been excluded from the x64
    > installation.
    >
    > Also, it should be pointed out that this system has an additional 2 IDE
    > drives and a SATA RAID 0 array with 2 WD Raptor drives.
    >
    >> It becomes more complicated if you boot from different drives - ie each
    >> drive has its own boot sector, ntldr, boot.ini etc.

    >
    > I know ... that is why I'm here ... LoL ...This is what I do.... Yes, each
    > drive has its own boot sector, etc.
    >
    > Does this mean that I should physically disable the SCSI drive that houses
    > the 32 bit OS, remove it from the system and then create a backup using;
    > "Save All Info On This Computer"?
    >
    >> In any case, you need to test your backup to make sure it works as
    >> expected.

    >
    > I tried this, it failed and destoyed both OSs on both drives... THat's
    > another reason I'm here...
    >
    > Ouch.... how do I do this without destroying my setups? ... I have a very
    > complicated multimedia production system that requires a totally custom
    > OS,
    > Applications & Configurations setup. There is no restore disk or anything
    > of
    > the sort... Which is the primary reason I would like to have a recovery
    > method similar to the method I use on the 32 bit boot drive using Ghost as
    > an
    > imaging tool to create a system backup.
    >
    > ... FYI .... Ghost 9.0 does not work with Windows x64
     
    cristalink, Oct 4, 2005
    #8
  9. tmrpro_com wrote:
    >
    > "cristalink" wrote:
    >
    >
    >>So you have two HDDs, one for 32bit and another for 64bit. The below applies
    >>to Microsoft Backup (NTBackup).

    >
    >
    > Yes. Both independent OS drives are SCSI. Both drive's setups have the same
    > applications duplicated except Windows x64 has two less applications that
    > won't run at all under x64, so they have been excluded from the x64
    > installation.
    >
    > Also, it should be pointed out that this system has an additional 2 IDE
    > drives and a SATA RAID 0 array with 2 WD Raptor drives.
    >
    >
    >>It becomes more complicated if you boot from different drives - ie each
    >>drive has its own boot sector, ntldr, boot.ini etc.

    >
    >
    > I know ... that is why I'm here ... LoL ...This is what I do.... Yes, each
    > drive has its own boot sector, etc.
    >
    > Does this mean that I should physically disable the SCSI drive that houses
    > the 32 bit OS, remove it from the system and then create a backup using;
    > "Save All Info On This Computer"?
    >
    >
    >>In any case, you need to test your backup to make sure it works as expected.

    >
    >
    > I tried this, it failed and destoyed both OSs on both drives... THat's
    > another reason I'm here...
    >
    > Ouch.... how do I do this without destroying my setups? ... I have a very
    > complicated multimedia production system that requires a totally custom OS,
    > Applications & Configurations setup. There is no restore disk or anything of
    > the sort... Which is the primary reason I would like to have a recovery
    > method similar to the method I use on the 32 bit boot drive using Ghost as an
    > imaging tool to create a system backup.


    If I were you, I would just keep 1 OS on this box and use another box
    for the other OS. With all the hard drives you have, you could yank a
    couple out for another system.

    Take my advice... Scrap Microsoft backup. If your system and data are
    that important to you, you should be considering something like
    Lasso-Logic. http://www.lassologic.com/

    HTH,

    >
    > .... FYI .... Ghost 9.0 does not work with Windows x64



    --
    Steve Thompson
    Online 64 .NET | http://www.online64.net
     
    Steve Thompson, Oct 4, 2005
    #9
  10. =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=

    zekolas Guest

    tmrpro_com wrote:
    > I need to create a backup of my OS & sytem Apps/configurations in Windows x64.
    >
    > I thought I had followed the procedures correctly, but when I had a system
    > failure and attempted to restore my backup file, it failed. I was forced to
    > reinstall Windows & all of my apps and configurations.
    >
    > Could someone who uses the Windows backup utility please provide detailed,
    > step by step instructions on how to successfully use this utility.


    I don't use windows back up so probably would not be able to help,
    however I just use some sort of drive imageing software such as norton
    ghost, drive snapshot or partimage. It takes an image of your hard drive
    or partition and saves it, then that image can be restored at any time.

    You might have some trouble because your drives are scsi, I have never
    used any of those programs with scsi drives.
     
    zekolas, Oct 4, 2005
    #10
  11. =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=

    Tim Guest

    > Take my advice... Scrap Microsoft backup. If your system and data are that
    > important to you, you should be considering something like Lasso-Logic.
    > http://www.lassologic.com/



    Really? Why? 'cos you say so?

    You really want us to believe one hyperlink to a previously unknown (to me)
    product should be used in preference to the MS issued and supported product?
    The first things it says on the web site about the product is "Purchase Now"
    then with little adieu, "Buy Now". Get real. It may be a remarkable product
    but with that kind of introdcution and such a hard - shove it down ones
    throat sell - I won't be looking any further than the first web page as it
    gives me no reasons to at all.

    What should we take your advice? Just because you say so? You *need* to do
    better than that if you are going to promote a product and giving shut-case
    statements such as the above wreaks.

    While others may have heard of your product, personally, I treat
    Advertisements such as this as unwelcome and snake oil.

    <applies snake oil to shattered nerves>

    - Tim
     
    Tim, Oct 4, 2005
    #11
  12. I've written books and books about MS operating systems. I've written them
    for MS Press. And I've always recommended that my readers consider third
    party alternatives to the NTBackup program. That being said, I've never
    heard of the program Steve suggests, so I have no comments about it. I have
    used UltraBak over the years and can definitely recommend it for a serious
    DR solution. Not sure what their status is WRT x64 at this point, however. I
    suspect they're not there yet.

    Frankly, the included NTBackup is a very old program that hasn't gotten much
    better since I first saw it years and years ago. MS has a new solution
    coming -- Data Protection Manager. But that's a pure server product and
    still only in beta for version 1.


    --
    Charlie.
    http://msmvps.com/xperts64

    Tim wrote:
    >> Take my advice... Scrap Microsoft backup. If your system and data are
    >> that important to you, you should be considering something like
    >> Lasso-Logic. http://www.lassologic.com/

    >
    >
    > Really? Why? 'cos you say so?
    >
    > You really want us to believe one hyperlink to a previously unknown (to
    > me) product should be used in preference to the MS issued and supported
    > product? The first things it says on the web site about the product is
    > "Purchase Now" then with little adieu, "Buy Now". Get real. It may be a
    > remarkable product but with that kind of introdcution and such a hard -
    > shove it down ones throat sell - I won't be looking any further than the
    > first web page as it gives me no reasons to at all.
    >
    > What should we take your advice? Just because you say so? You *need* to do
    > better than that if you are going to promote a product and giving
    > shut-case statements such as the above wreaks.
    >
    > While others may have heard of your product, personally, I treat
    > Advertisements such as this as unwelcome and snake oil.
    >
    > <applies snake oil to shattered nerves>
    >
    > - Tim
     
    Charlie Russel - MVP, Oct 4, 2005
    #12
  13. Tim wrote:
    >>Take my advice... Scrap Microsoft backup. If your system and data are that
    >>important to you, you should be considering something like Lasso-Logic.
    >>http://www.lassologic.com/

    >
    >
    >
    > Really? Why? 'cos you say so?
    >


    Having a bad day are we?

    > You really want us to believe one hyperlink to a previously unknown (to me)
    > product should be used in preference to the MS issued and supported product?


    You can believe what you like.

    > The first things it says on the web site about the product is "Purchase Now"
    > then with little adieu, "Buy Now". Get real. It may be a remarkable product
    > but with that kind of introdcution and such a hard - shove it down ones
    > throat sell - I won't be looking any further than the first web page as it
    > gives me no reasons to at all.
    >
    > What should we take your advice? Just because you say so? You *need* to do
    > better than that if you are going to promote a product and giving shut-case
    > statements such as the above wreaks.


    My advice? Take it or leave it; it's free! No charge. Moreover, I'm not
    promoting anything. Did you bother to read what I wrote? I'll requote it
    here in case you missed it the first time..

    <QUOTE>
    If your system and data are that important to you, you should be
    considering something like Lasso-Logic.
    </QUOTE>

    See the part where it says, "you should be considering something like..."?

    I see no harm at all in pointing someone to an alternative way of
    backing up their system. In fact, I see nothing but benefit. It opens
    peoples eyes about other solutions that may fit their needs. You weren't
    exposed to it until I pointed you to their web site. You chose to stop
    at the first sign of an advertisement rather than to explorer and gain
    knowledge. Again, read / re-read the above quote. There may or may not
    be other similar products on the net that have a better solution than
    Lasso-Logic. But without the knowledge that these alternatives exist,
    gains you, or anyone else, nothing.

    >
    > While others may have heard of your product, personally, I treat
    > Advertisements such as this as unwelcome and snake oil.
    >


    OK... Hey listen, if you get this aggravate over reading a newsgroup
    article, maybe should consider a vacation. Just a thought.

    > <applies snake oil to shattered nerves>
    >


    Valium, plenty of valium!

    > - Tim
    >
    >
     
    Steve Thompson, Oct 4, 2005
    #13
  14. Well things are looking positive for Backup in the next version of Windows.
    ;)
    --
    Andre
    Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com
    Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre
    http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta
    FAQ for MS AntiSpy http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm

    "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I've written books and books about MS operating systems. I've written them
    > for MS Press. And I've always recommended that my readers consider third
    > party alternatives to the NTBackup program. That being said, I've never
    > heard of the program Steve suggests, so I have no comments about it. I
    > have used UltraBak over the years and can definitely recommend it for a
    > serious DR solution. Not sure what their status is WRT x64 at this point,
    > however. I suspect they're not there yet.
    >
    > Frankly, the included NTBackup is a very old program that hasn't gotten
    > much better since I first saw it years and years ago. MS has a new
    > solution coming -- Data Protection Manager. But that's a pure server
    > product and still only in beta for version 1.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Charlie.
    > http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >
    > Tim wrote:
    >>> Take my advice... Scrap Microsoft backup. If your system and data are
    >>> that important to you, you should be considering something like
    >>> Lasso-Logic. http://www.lassologic.com/

    >>
    >>
    >> Really? Why? 'cos you say so?
    >>
    >> You really want us to believe one hyperlink to a previously unknown (to
    >> me) product should be used in preference to the MS issued and supported
    >> product? The first things it says on the web site about the product is
    >> "Purchase Now" then with little adieu, "Buy Now". Get real. It may be a
    >> remarkable product but with that kind of introdcution and such a hard -
    >> shove it down ones throat sell - I won't be looking any further than the
    >> first web page as it gives me no reasons to at all.
    >>
    >> What should we take your advice? Just because you say so? You *need* to
    >> do
    >> better than that if you are going to promote a product and giving
    >> shut-case statements such as the above wreaks.
    >>
    >> While others may have heard of your product, personally, I treat
    >> Advertisements such as this as unwelcome and snake oil.
    >>
    >> <applies snake oil to shattered nerves>
    >>
    >> - Tim

    >
    >
     
    Andre Da Costa [Extended64], Oct 4, 2005
    #14
  15. =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=

    cristalink Guest

    I am far from saying NTBackup is perfect. But as long as it works, it's by
    far better than most of others. Why? Just because Microsoft has all the
    internal knowledge to properly back up the system. Before considering any
    other backup solution, I would ask the following questions. Does it support
    volume shadow copy? Can it handle junction points, mount points, sparse
    files, permissions etc etc etc? Can it do bare metal restore? Can it restore
    files protected by Windows File Protection? Does it work on x64 at all? Will
    it work with the next version of NTFS/Windows? What's the price comparing to
    NTBackup?

    >>Frankly, the included NTBackup is a very old program that hasn't gotten
    >>much better since I first saw it years and years ago.


    You are apparently wrong. The UI is still the same, but the internals can
    properly back up live Windows Server 2003, which is something only a few
    programs, if any, can do better.

    --
    http://www.cristalink.com


    "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I've written books and books about MS operating systems. I've written them
    > for MS Press. And I've always recommended that my readers consider third
    > party alternatives to the NTBackup program. That being said, I've never
    > heard of the program Steve suggests, so I have no comments about it. I
    > have used UltraBak over the years and can definitely recommend it for a
    > serious DR solution. Not sure what their status is WRT x64 at this point,
    > however. I suspect they're not there yet.
    >
    > Frankly, the included NTBackup is a very old program that hasn't gotten
    > much better since I first saw it years and years ago. MS has a new
    > solution coming -- Data Protection Manager. But that's a pure server
    > product and still only in beta for version 1.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Charlie.
    > http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >
    > Tim wrote:
    >>> Take my advice... Scrap Microsoft backup. If your system and data are
    >>> that important to you, you should be considering something like
    >>> Lasso-Logic. http://www.lassologic.com/

    >>
    >>
    >> Really? Why? 'cos you say so?
    >>
    >> You really want us to believe one hyperlink to a previously unknown (to
    >> me) product should be used in preference to the MS issued and supported
    >> product? The first things it says on the web site about the product is
    >> "Purchase Now" then with little adieu, "Buy Now". Get real. It may be a
    >> remarkable product but with that kind of introdcution and such a hard -
    >> shove it down ones throat sell - I won't be looking any further than the
    >> first web page as it gives me no reasons to at all.
    >>
    >> What should we take your advice? Just because you say so? You *need* to
    >> do
    >> better than that if you are going to promote a product and giving
    >> shut-case statements such as the above wreaks.
    >>
    >> While others may have heard of your product, personally, I treat
    >> Advertisements such as this as unwelcome and snake oil.
    >>
    >> <applies snake oil to shattered nerves>
    >>
    >> - Tim

    >
    >
     
    cristalink, Oct 4, 2005
    #15
  16. =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=

    Mercury Guest

    Charlie, the underlying API's haven't changed, but NTBackup is up with the
    play - VSS integration and the ability to hook into all aspects of system
    state. I doubt if "real" backup s/w vendors use anything other than the
    Backup API's anyway (for files), so its the jobs, network, scheduling,
    media, compression, UI, enumeration etc... that makes those products.

    Why they left out a SQL connector I don't know, its piss easy to write.
    Why its not an app that exposes COM objects - well we all know why - ES
    writes it and that would be the end of 3rd party backup products.

    Thank goodness there is an Exchange connector built in.

    I have read horror stories covering multiple versions of other vendors
    products failing at the most important stage - system restore. I have also
    had to apply hotfixes to overcome W2K3 issues. none are perfect.

    It is the ommission of system state that I get concerned about - system
    backups are useless without it and the numerous 'backup' systems that can't
    actually backup the system is the majority...

    I would use UB if it was MTF (its not right?), but probably wouldn't care
    any longer as a) I no longer have a tape drive and b) no longer sell them...

    As for not recommending NTBackup, i am sure you have good reasons... its not
    great but it works.


    "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I've written books and books about MS operating systems. I've written them
    > for MS Press. And I've always recommended that my readers consider third
    > party alternatives to the NTBackup program. That being said, I've never
    > heard of the program Steve suggests, so I have no comments about it. I
    > have used UltraBak over the years and can definitely recommend it for a
    > serious DR solution. Not sure what their status is WRT x64 at this point,
    > however. I suspect they're not there yet.
    >
    > Frankly, the included NTBackup is a very old program that hasn't gotten
    > much better since I first saw it years and years ago. MS has a new
    > solution coming -- Data Protection Manager. But that's a pure server
    > product and still only in beta for version 1.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Charlie.
    > http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >
    > Tim wrote:
    >>> Take my advice... Scrap Microsoft backup. If your system and data are
    >>> that important to you, you should be considering something like
    >>> Lasso-Logic. http://www.lassologic.com/

    >>
    >>
    >> Really? Why? 'cos you say so?
    >>
    >> You really want us to believe one hyperlink to a previously unknown (to
    >> me) product should be used in preference to the MS issued and supported
    >> product? The first things it says on the web site about the product is
    >> "Purchase Now" then with little adieu, "Buy Now". Get real. It may be a
    >> remarkable product but with that kind of introdcution and such a hard -
    >> shove it down ones throat sell - I won't be looking any further than the
    >> first web page as it gives me no reasons to at all.
    >>
    >> What should we take your advice? Just because you say so? You *need* to
    >> do
    >> better than that if you are going to promote a product and giving
    >> shut-case statements such as the above wreaks.
    >>
    >> While others may have heard of your product, personally, I treat
    >> Advertisements such as this as unwelcome and snake oil.
    >>
    >> <applies snake oil to shattered nerves>
    >>
    >> - Tim

    >
    >
     
    Mercury, Oct 5, 2005
    #16
  17. =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=

    Mercury Guest

    why? i already have a multi-tiered backup system with multi-media including
    offsite backups?
    Can your backup system tell me what characters changed in a file on a line
    by line basis over many backups covering years?

    why?

    "Steve Thompson" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Tim wrote:
    >>>Take my advice... Scrap Microsoft backup. If your system and data are
    >>>that important to you, you should be considering something like
    >>>Lasso-Logic. http://www.lassologic.com/

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Really? Why? 'cos you say so?
    >>

    >
    > Having a bad day are we?
    >
    >> You really want us to believe one hyperlink to a previously unknown (to
    >> me) product should be used in preference to the MS issued and supported
    >> product?

    >
    > You can believe what you like.
    >
    >> The first things it says on the web site about the product is "Purchase
    >> Now" then with little adieu, "Buy Now". Get real. It may be a remarkable
    >> product but with that kind of introdcution and such a hard - shove it
    >> down ones throat sell - I won't be looking any further than the first web
    >> page as it gives me no reasons to at all.
    >>
    >> What should we take your advice? Just because you say so? You *need* to
    >> do better than that if you are going to promote a product and giving
    >> shut-case statements such as the above wreaks.

    >
    > My advice? Take it or leave it; it's free! No charge. Moreover, I'm not
    > promoting anything. Did you bother to read what I wrote? I'll requote it
    > here in case you missed it the first time..
    >
    > <QUOTE>
    > If your system and data are that important to you, you should be
    > considering something like Lasso-Logic.
    > </QUOTE>
    >
    > See the part where it says, "you should be considering something like..."?
    >
    > I see no harm at all in pointing someone to an alternative way of backing
    > up their system. In fact, I see nothing but benefit. It opens peoples eyes
    > about other solutions that may fit their needs. You weren't exposed to it
    > until I pointed you to their web site. You chose to stop at the first sign
    > of an advertisement rather than to explorer and gain knowledge. Again,
    > read / re-read the above quote. There may or may not be other similar
    > products on the net that have a better solution than Lasso-Logic. But
    > without the knowledge that these alternatives exist, gains you, or anyone
    > else, nothing.
    >
    >>
    >> While others may have heard of your product, personally, I treat
    >> Advertisements such as this as unwelcome and snake oil.
    >>

    >
    > OK... Hey listen, if you get this aggravate over reading a newsgroup
    > article, maybe should consider a vacation. Just a thought.
    >
    >> <applies snake oil to shattered nerves>
    >>

    >
    > Valium, plenty of valium!
    >
    >> - Tim
    >>
     
    Mercury, Oct 5, 2005
    #17
  18. Mercury wrote:
    > why?


    Why, What?

    i already have a multi-tiered backup system with multi-media including
    > offsite backups?


    OK, good.

    > Can your backup system tell me what characters changed in a file on a line
    > by line basis over many backups covering years?


    It's not *my* backup system / product. It's not *my* anything. I was
    simply pointing out an alternative backup tool.

    Was my post that incomprehensible or are you just looking for an
    argument? I can only assume the latter.

    As far as what that product will do, everything is explained right here
    http://www.lassologic.com/product.htm. It only took 2 mouse clicks. I'm
    sure it will answer all of your questions. If it doesn't, send them an
    email or give them a call. When someone points me to a resource, I
    usually read the documentation before asking silly questions about it.

    If the product seems to suit you, great. If not, I'm sure there are
    other worthy alternatives. If you're hell-bent on using MS backup then
    go for it.

    >
    > why?
    >
    > "Steve Thompson" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>Tim wrote:
    >>
    >>>>Take my advice... Scrap Microsoft backup. If your system and data are
    >>>>that important to you, you should be considering something like
    >>>>Lasso-Logic. http://www.lassologic.com/
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Really? Why? 'cos you say so?
    >>>

    >>
    >>Having a bad day are we?
    >>
    >>
    >>>You really want us to believe one hyperlink to a previously unknown (to
    >>>me) product should be used in preference to the MS issued and supported
    >>>product?

    >>
    >>You can believe what you like.
    >>
    >>
    >>>The first things it says on the web site about the product is "Purchase
    >>>Now" then with little adieu, "Buy Now". Get real. It may be a remarkable
    >>>product but with that kind of introdcution and such a hard - shove it
    >>>down ones throat sell - I won't be looking any further than the first web
    >>>page as it gives me no reasons to at all.
    >>>
    >>>What should we take your advice? Just because you say so? You *need* to
    >>>do better than that if you are going to promote a product and giving
    >>>shut-case statements such as the above wreaks.

    >>
    >>My advice? Take it or leave it; it's free! No charge. Moreover, I'm not
    >>promoting anything. Did you bother to read what I wrote? I'll requote it
    >>here in case you missed it the first time..
    >>
    >><QUOTE>
    >>If your system and data are that important to you, you should be
    >>considering something like Lasso-Logic.
    >></QUOTE>
    >>
    >>See the part where it says, "you should be considering something like..."?
    >>
    >>I see no harm at all in pointing someone to an alternative way of backing
    >>up their system. In fact, I see nothing but benefit. It opens peoples eyes
    >>about other solutions that may fit their needs. You weren't exposed to it
    >>until I pointed you to their web site. You chose to stop at the first sign
    >>of an advertisement rather than to explorer and gain knowledge. Again,
    >>read / re-read the above quote. There may or may not be other similar
    >>products on the net that have a better solution than Lasso-Logic. But
    >>without the knowledge that these alternatives exist, gains you, or anyone
    >>else, nothing.
    >>
    >>
    >>>While others may have heard of your product, personally, I treat
    >>>Advertisements such as this as unwelcome and snake oil.
    >>>

    >>
    >>OK... Hey listen, if you get this aggravate over reading a newsgroup
    >>article, maybe should consider a vacation. Just a thought.
    >>
    >>
    >>><applies snake oil to shattered nerves>
    >>>

    >>Valium, plenty of valium!
    >>
    >>
    >>>- Tim
    >>>

    >
    >
     
    Steve Thompson, Oct 5, 2005
    #18
  19. =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=

    cristalink Guest

    > state. I doubt if "real" backup s/w vendors use anything other than the
    > Backup API's anyway (for files), so its the jobs, network, scheduling,
    > media, compression, UI, enumeration etc... that makes those products.


    It's not that simple. VSS API is not publicly available. Microsoft provides
    it to "partners" only under NDA. Besides, the Backup API can only be used by
    conventional backup software. "Disk imaging" software is in a far worse
    position, especially when one backs up a live system. There is no "disk
    imaging" API in Windows. Anyone who claims their "disk imaging" backup
    software can create an "exact copy" of a live disk partition is a liar or,
    at the minimum, misleads their customers.

    --
    http://www.cristalink.com


    "Mercury" <> wrote in message
    news:di07l2$h5b$...
    > Charlie, the underlying API's haven't changed, but NTBackup is up with the
    > play - VSS integration and the ability to hook into all aspects of system
    > state. I doubt if "real" backup s/w vendors use anything other than the
    > Backup API's anyway (for files), so its the jobs, network, scheduling,
    > media, compression, UI, enumeration etc... that makes those products.
    >
    > Why they left out a SQL connector I don't know, its piss easy to write.
    > Why its not an app that exposes COM objects - well we all know why - ES
    > writes it and that would be the end of 3rd party backup products.
    >
    > Thank goodness there is an Exchange connector built in.
    >
    > I have read horror stories covering multiple versions of other vendors
    > products failing at the most important stage - system restore. I have also
    > had to apply hotfixes to overcome W2K3 issues. none are perfect.
    >
    > It is the ommission of system state that I get concerned about - system
    > backups are useless without it and the numerous 'backup' systems that
    > can't actually backup the system is the majority...
    >
    > I would use UB if it was MTF (its not right?), but probably wouldn't care
    > any longer as a) I no longer have a tape drive and b) no longer sell
    > them...
    >
    > As for not recommending NTBackup, i am sure you have good reasons... its
    > not great but it works.
    >
    >
    > "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> I've written books and books about MS operating systems. I've written
    >> them for MS Press. And I've always recommended that my readers consider
    >> third party alternatives to the NTBackup program. That being said, I've
    >> never heard of the program Steve suggests, so I have no comments about
    >> it. I have used UltraBak over the years and can definitely recommend it
    >> for a serious DR solution. Not sure what their status is WRT x64 at this
    >> point, however. I suspect they're not there yet.
    >>
    >> Frankly, the included NTBackup is a very old program that hasn't gotten
    >> much better since I first saw it years and years ago. MS has a new
    >> solution coming -- Data Protection Manager. But that's a pure server
    >> product and still only in beta for version 1.
    >>
    >>
    >> --
    >> Charlie.
    >> http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >>
    >> Tim wrote:
    >>>> Take my advice... Scrap Microsoft backup. If your system and data are
    >>>> that important to you, you should be considering something like
    >>>> Lasso-Logic. http://www.lassologic.com/
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Really? Why? 'cos you say so?
    >>>
    >>> You really want us to believe one hyperlink to a previously unknown (to
    >>> me) product should be used in preference to the MS issued and supported
    >>> product? The first things it says on the web site about the product is
    >>> "Purchase Now" then with little adieu, "Buy Now". Get real. It may be a
    >>> remarkable product but with that kind of introdcution and such a hard -
    >>> shove it down ones throat sell - I won't be looking any further than the
    >>> first web page as it gives me no reasons to at all.
    >>>
    >>> What should we take your advice? Just because you say so? You *need* to
    >>> do
    >>> better than that if you are going to promote a product and giving
    >>> shut-case statements such as the above wreaks.
    >>>
    >>> While others may have heard of your product, personally, I treat
    >>> Advertisements such as this as unwelcome and snake oil.
    >>>
    >>> <applies snake oil to shattered nerves>
    >>>
    >>> - Tim

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    cristalink, Oct 5, 2005
    #19
  20. =?Utf-8?B?dG1ycHJvX2NvbQ==?=

    Tim Guest

    Agree. But last I looked, one only had to ask and have a good justification
    to get to the VSS API - I haven't tried as I am not about to write such an
    app so could be wrong, however any Certified Partner (I am) with a good case
    would be in with a shot.

    " Besides, the Backup API can only be used by conventional backup
    software." Huh? It has its purpose and limits. You could use it for a file
    only backup system to record ACL's etc and alternate streams in one hit -
    thats what its for, so I don't really see a limit on its use apart from
    being limited to Backup Operators. You can always write a service to do the
    backups under a Backup Operator account and UI runs in any context...

    Disc copy programs (or partition copy) are easy to write. I've written one
    so it must be :) - it is no more difficult than a file copy program: open
    disc or partition, read / write until EOD - that is a dumb way of doing it
    but on an idle volume its as good as any. Yes I have tested it, no I would
    not rely on it - and this is where a lot of the expense of this type of s/w
    comes in. Writing one that intelligently skips free space is much more
    difficult, adding in compression is a piece of cake. Coping with file system
    changes in the process is not. There is a good article over at
    www.codeproject.com on reading the NTFS log file - a good volume copy system
    could ensure it has a log file active, records everything then just as per
    SQL Server then finishes off by appending what has changed only during the
    duration of the backup (still possible to have holes). Writing an image
    viewer is much more complex, but there are no doubt easy ways around this
    too such as mounting the image as a disk quietly and opening the disk using
    stock API's. Another concept I have thought about is 'umbrella files' -
    partitions or files that break rules and cover other partitions by
    duplicating start sector and and sector - these break rules, but give you
    dual access to systems when stock API's shut you out due to 'File is already
    open'. However this seems redundant as there appear to be stock methods to
    achieve this anyway. I am sure some of the Ghost like programs used to do
    this on earlier OS as people have reported odd partitions on these systems.

    The trougle is always the same: writing a simple app that works in 1
    scenario is easy enough. If it touches tape drives then you are in for a
    huge expense with all the exceptions that exist. Getting it commercial is
    tuff. That is why I too often quote UltraBac as a good product as it came so
    quickly out of nowhere and was even if not leading the field ==> excellent
    programming which gave the prospect that it was going to be less buggy than
    the competitors long term.

    2 cents.

    "cristalink" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >> state. I doubt if "real" backup s/w vendors use anything other than the
    >> Backup API's anyway (for files), so its the jobs, network, scheduling,
    >> media, compression, UI, enumeration etc... that makes those products.

    >
    > It's not that simple. VSS API is not publicly available. Microsoft
    > provides it to "partners" only under NDA. Besides, the Backup API can only
    > be used by conventional backup software. "Disk imaging" software is in a
    > far worse position, especially when one backs up a live system. There is
    > no "disk imaging" API in Windows. Anyone who claims their "disk imaging"
    > backup software can create an "exact copy" of a live disk partition is a
    > liar or, at the minimum, misleads their customers.
    >
    > --
    > http://www.cristalink.com
    >
    >
    > "Mercury" <> wrote in message
    > news:di07l2$h5b$...
    >> Charlie, the underlying API's haven't changed, but NTBackup is up with
    >> the play - VSS integration and the ability to hook into all aspects of
    >> system state. I doubt if "real" backup s/w vendors use anything other
    >> than the Backup API's anyway (for files), so its the jobs, network,
    >> scheduling, media, compression, UI, enumeration etc... that makes those
    >> products.
    >>
    >> Why they left out a SQL connector I don't know, its piss easy to write.
    >> Why its not an app that exposes COM objects - well we all know why - ES
    >> writes it and that would be the end of 3rd party backup products.
    >>
    >> Thank goodness there is an Exchange connector built in.
    >>
    >> I have read horror stories covering multiple versions of other vendors
    >> products failing at the most important stage - system restore. I have
    >> also had to apply hotfixes to overcome W2K3 issues. none are perfect.
    >>
    >> It is the ommission of system state that I get concerned about - system
    >> backups are useless without it and the numerous 'backup' systems that
    >> can't actually backup the system is the majority...
    >>
    >> I would use UB if it was MTF (its not right?), but probably wouldn't care
    >> any longer as a) I no longer have a tape drive and b) no longer sell
    >> them...
    >>
    >> As for not recommending NTBackup, i am sure you have good reasons... its
    >> not great but it works.
    >>
    >>
    >> "Charlie Russel - MVP" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> I've written books and books about MS operating systems. I've written
    >>> them for MS Press. And I've always recommended that my readers consider
    >>> third party alternatives to the NTBackup program. That being said, I've
    >>> never heard of the program Steve suggests, so I have no comments about
    >>> it. I have used UltraBak over the years and can definitely recommend it
    >>> for a serious DR solution. Not sure what their status is WRT x64 at this
    >>> point, however. I suspect they're not there yet.
    >>>
    >>> Frankly, the included NTBackup is a very old program that hasn't gotten
    >>> much better since I first saw it years and years ago. MS has a new
    >>> solution coming -- Data Protection Manager. But that's a pure server
    >>> product and still only in beta for version 1.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> Charlie.
    >>> http://msmvps.com/xperts64
    >>>
    >>> Tim wrote:
    >>>>> Take my advice... Scrap Microsoft backup. If your system and data are
    >>>>> that important to you, you should be considering something like
    >>>>> Lasso-Logic. http://www.lassologic.com/
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Really? Why? 'cos you say so?
    >>>>
    >>>> You really want us to believe one hyperlink to a previously unknown (to
    >>>> me) product should be used in preference to the MS issued and supported
    >>>> product? The first things it says on the web site about the product is
    >>>> "Purchase Now" then with little adieu, "Buy Now". Get real. It may be a
    >>>> remarkable product but with that kind of introdcution and such a hard -
    >>>> shove it down ones throat sell - I won't be looking any further than
    >>>> the
    >>>> first web page as it gives me no reasons to at all.
    >>>>
    >>>> What should we take your advice? Just because you say so? You *need* to
    >>>> do
    >>>> better than that if you are going to promote a product and giving
    >>>> shut-case statements such as the above wreaks.
    >>>>
    >>>> While others may have heard of your product, personally, I treat
    >>>> Advertisements such as this as unwelcome and snake oil.
    >>>>
    >>>> <applies snake oil to shattered nerves>
    >>>>
    >>>> - Tim
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    Tim, Oct 6, 2005
    #20
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