Surge Protector

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by Livewire, Jan 4, 2007.

  1. Livewire

    Livewire Guest

    Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a 6-way Belkin PureAV surge
    protector with a computer set-up rather than the home cinema/ hi-fi gear
    it's designed for? I would be using a pentium 4 computer, a laser
    printer, 19" flat screen monitor, speakers and an external HDD.
    Livewire, Jan 4, 2007
    #1
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  2. Livewire <> wrote in
    news::
    >
    > Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a 6-way Belkin PureAV surge
    > protector with a computer set-up rather than the home cinema/ hi-fi gear
    > it's designed for? I would be using a pentium 4 computer, a laser
    > printer, 19" flat screen monitor, speakers and an external HDD.



    It wouldn't hurt anything... The only reason I can think of is that on a
    computer you'd want back-up power as well as surge protection. A UPS would
    give you sufficient time to save open work and shut down your computing
    operations safely in the case of a power outage pursuant to any surge or
    spike activity. Home Entertainment operations don't really need a power
    backup provision as much as they need the surge and overload protection.

    --

    I think a fun thing to do might be to transport way back in time
    to an exact point moments before there was going to be a solar
    eclipse and tell the cave men: "If you want proof I have come
    to destroy you, may the sun be blotted out from the sky."

    Just then the eclipse would start.

    Of course, they might just try to kill you or something;
    but then, you could explain about the rotation of the moon
    and all like that, and everyone would just get a good laugh.
    Bucky Breeder, Jan 4, 2007
    #2
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  3. Livewire

    why? Guest

    On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 20:25:15 -0000, Livewire wrote:

    >
    >
    >Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a 6-way Belkin PureAV surge
    >protector with a computer set-up rather than the home cinema/ hi-fi gear
    >it's designed for? I would be using a pentium 4 computer, a laser
    >printer, 19" flat screen monitor, speakers and an external HDD.


    Because thay say the, PureAV Home Cinema Surge Protector - 6 Sockets
    F9A623uk2M (if that's the model you have) is for home cinema / hi-fi :)

    Maybe if it's not connected to listed kit, then this doesn't apply
    £100,000 Connected Equipment Warranty
    Lifetime Product Warranty

    Ask Belkin maybe.

    Appears as it wouldn't be an issue, but that's up to you.

    Me
    why?, Jan 4, 2007
    #3
  4. Livewire

    Fred Kasner Guest

    Livewire wrote:
    >
    > Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a 6-way Belkin PureAV surge
    > protector with a computer set-up rather than the home cinema/ hi-fi gear
    > it's designed for? I would be using a pentium 4 computer, a laser
    > printer, 19" flat screen monitor, speakers and an external HDD.

    I'd advise against using the laser printer on the same circuit with all
    those other things. It is a high current device and might overload the
    surge protector. You would like to have one that is light capacity for
    the set of low current devices and high capacity one for the laser
    printer. I keep those separated as to the power source and the surge
    protector. Certainly don't plug the laser into a UPS along with the
    other devices.
    FK
    Fred Kasner, Jan 4, 2007
    #4
  5. Livewire

    w_tom Guest

    Livewire wrote:
    > Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a 6-way Belkin PureAV surge
    > protector with a computer set-up rather than the home cinema/ hi-fi gear
    > it's designed for? I would be using a pentium 4 computer, a laser
    > printer, 19" flat screen monitor, speakers and an external HDD.


    Why would each protector be different? In fact, get the manufacturer
    numerical spec sheets. Where is something different?

    Look inside that protector. It connects AC wall receptacle directly
    to each strip receptacle. Is something magic between AC mains and the
    'protected' appliance? Of course not. Will a Laser printer overwhelm
    this connection? Of course not. That connection - with or without
    surge protector components inside - must be a 15 amp circuit complete
    with the most important component in that power strip: a 15 amp circuit
    breaker.

    Responsible sources state specifically what is required for
    protection. IEEE Red Book (IEEE Standard 141):
    > In actual practice, lightning protection is achieve by the
    > process of interception of lightning produced surges,
    > diverting them to ground, and by altering their
    > associated wave shapes.


    A long list of other responsible sources say same thing in
    Recommended Grounding Guidelines:
    http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/rtaf3.html
    What is common to all recommended protection? Low impedance connection
    and a quality earthing electrode or earthing network - the single point
    earth ground.

    All appliances contain any protection that will work on their power
    cords. So what does that plug-in protector do? Internal appliance
    protection maybe overwhelmed if the typically destructive surge is not
    earthed before entering a building. Therefore protectors sold in Radio
    Shack, Sears, Staples, Wal-mart, Best Buy, Office Max, and your grocery
    store will not even claim such protection. See their numerical specs.
    Responsible manufacturers such as Siemens, Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer,
    Leviton, Square D, and GE sell protectors with the dedicated earthing
    connection. Why are these companies considered so reputable? A
    'whole house' protector can be purchased in Lowes, Home Depot, or
    electrical supply houses. One protector. 'Less than 10 foot'
    connection to earthing (the low impedance earthing connection). All
    incoming utilities connected to same earthing electrode (single point
    earth ground). Each necessary to protect electronics even 70 years
    ago. The technology is that well proven for that long. What is not
    found in that Belkin? 1) No dedicated earthing wire. 2) Manufacture
    avoid all discussion about earthing. But Belkin has discovered high
    profits in promoting myths. Another poster will be along to promote
    those half truths.

    Another will cut and pasting references to an IEEE paper. He will
    misrepresent that paper as a recommendation. IEEE does not make
    recommendations in papers. IEEE makes recommendations in Standards
    such as those in the Red Book (IEEE Standard 141), Green Book (IEEE
    Standard 142), and Emerald Book (IEEE Standard 1100-1). Earthing
    (not some protector) is protection. The plug-in industry promoter hopes
    you don't read or grasp the paper. It demonstrates how a plug-in
    protector can and cannot contribute to damage of the adjacent
    appliance. It each demonstrates how the unearthed protector puts an
    adjacent TV at 8000 volts - destructively. It demonstrates how a kid
    with an Xbox can even compromise protection from a plug-in protector.

    One 'whole house' protector and building earthing upgraded to meet
    and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements means
    protection. Protection even if wall receptacles are only two wire. It
    means a surge will not find earth ground, destructively, via those
    entertainment and computer appliances. It means protection inside each
    appliance is not overwhelmed.

    So what defines protection? Not the protector. An effective
    protector in nothing more than a connection to protection. Earthing
    is the protection. Protector will only be as effective as its earthing
    - as has been demonstrated in most every town even long before WWII and
    is noted in those many sources including IEEE Standards.

    Cable TV wire does not need a protector. Cable must make a short
    'less than 10 foot' connection to earthing where it enters the
    building. If your cable installer knows his job and if you had
    provided him that earthing electrode, then cable should already have
    effective protection - no protector required.

    'Whole house' protector is so inexpensive and so effective as to be
    installed, for free, by the telco where their wire meets yours. Again,
    that earthing wire must make the short connection to a common earthing
    electrode. Distance and other factors (no sharp bends, no splices,
    separated from non-earthing wires, etc) are essential.

    But again, where does a Belkin protector or a plug-in UPS cite each
    type of surge AND define protection for that type surge? As the
    plug-in protector promoter will do - they hope you will assume all
    surges as same. The protector does claim to protect from a transient
    that does not typically cause damage. Then they hope you will assume
    that is protection from ALL types of transients.

    A destructive surge seeks earth ground. Either it is earthed before
    entering the building (single point earth ground and 'whole house'
    protector). Or it overwhelms protection already inside household
    appliances to find destructive paths to earth. Demonstrated previously
    is how an adjacent plug-in protector even contributed to damage to a
    network of powered off computers. Protector (with no short connection
    to earth) provided more destructive paths via those adjacent computers.


    Provided is a protector solution that costs about $1 per protected
    appliance from responsible manufacturers - protection for all household
    electronics. Plug-in protectors that cannot and do not even claim to
    provide that protection also hope you never learn about earthing - the
    most critical component in a protection system.
    w_tom, Jan 5, 2007
    #5
  6. Livewire

    why? Guest

    On 4 Jan 2007 18:12:51 -0800, w_tom wrote:

    >Livewire wrote:
    >> Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a 6-way Belkin PureAV surge
    >> protector with a computer set-up rather than the home cinema/ hi-fi gear
    >> it's designed for? I would be using a pentium 4 computer, a laser
    >> printer, 19" flat screen monitor, speakers and an external HDD.

    >
    > Why would each protector be different? In fact, get the manufacturer
    >numerical spec sheets. Where is something different?


    Was going to mention that to the OP, the Manuals link of the Belkin
    webpage doesn't show any manuals.

    > Look inside that protector. It connects AC wall receptacle directly


    Nice way to void the manufacturers
    £100,000 Connected Equipment Warranty
    Lifetime Product Warranty

    >to each strip receptacle. Is something magic between AC mains and the
    >'protected' appliance? Of course not. Will a Laser printer overwhelm
    >this connection? Of course not. That connection - with or without


    Some older lasers (years ago) had quite a kick starting up. The OP
    doesn't say much about it.

    >surge protector components inside - must be a 15 amp circuit complete
    >with the most important component in that power strip: a 15 amp circuit
    >breaker.


    <snip>

    Me
    why?, Jan 5, 2007
    #6
  7. Livewire

    w_tom Guest

    Manuals: are different from numeric specifications. Some manuals
    may contain numeric specifications. Many do not. The stuff that makes
    eyes glaze over is often forgotten when promoting myths.

    Manufacturer's warranty: Red their fine print. Others suffered
    consequences before discovering what the warranty really covers:
    Newsman on 10 Sept 2002 in the newsgroup alt.video.ptv.tivo entitled
    "SONY TiVo SVR-2000"
    > I got a Belkin surge protector with phone line protection soley for
    > Tivo purposes.
    > Yet my Tivo's modem still failed. And the '$20,000 connected
    > devices warranty' did not help me. I jumped through many
    > hoops, including finding the original recept for the surge
    > protector (just under a year old) and I sent my surge protector
    > to Belkin (paid for shipping), and was denied my warranty.
    > They gave me a ton of crap, including that it was null and void
    > b/c the Tivo was also connected to the coax line for cable (this
    > was not mentioned as a thing in the warranty that can nullify it).
    > Eventually it boiled down to a line in the warranty that said
    > "Belkin at it's sole discretion can reject any claim for any
    > reason".


    Did you read the so many fine print "outs" so that a warranty is not
    honored? Most don't. Therefore a warranty is just another half truth
    to promote an ineffective (and grossly overpriced) protector.

    Laser printer: if it created a destructive kick into the power strip
    (surge protector or otherwise), then it also does bad things to wall
    receptacles and its own power cord. The power plug defines current.
    That power plug on laser printer (and all other appliances) is
    NEMA-5-15. That means it is 15 amps max on the laser printer power
    cord. 15 amps from power strip. 15 amps from wall receptacle.

    The most important function on any power strip is its 15 amp circuit
    breaker - so that too many appliances combined do not exceed than 15
    amp rating.

    why? wrote:
    > ....
    > Was going to mention that to the OP, the Manuals link of the Belkin
    > webpage doesn't show any manuals.
    > ...
    >
    > Nice way to void the manufacturers
    > £100,000 Connected Equipment Warranty
    > Lifetime Product Warranty
    >
    > >to each strip receptacle. Is something magic between AC mains and the
    > >'protected' appliance? Of course not. Will a Laser printer overwhelm
    > >this connection? Of course not. That connection - with or without

    >
    > Some older lasers (years ago) had quite a kick starting up. The OP
    > doesn't say much about it.
    > ...
    w_tom, Jan 5, 2007
    #7
  8. Livewire

    bud-- Guest

    On Jan 4, 8:12 pm, "w_tom" <> wrote:
    > Livewire wrote:
    > > Is there any reason why I shouldn't use a 6-way Belkin PureAV surge
    > > protector with a computer set-up rather than the home cinema/ hi-fi gear
    > > it's designed for? I would be using a pentium 4 computer, a laser
    > > printer, 19" flat screen monitor, speakers and an external HDD. Why would each protector be different? In fact, get the manufacturer

    > numerical spec sheets. Where is something different?
    >
    > Look inside that protector. It connects AC wall receptacle directly
    > to each strip receptacle. Is something magic between AC mains and the
    > 'protected' appliance? Of course not. Will a Laser printer overwhelm
    > this connection? Of course not. That connection - with or without
    > surge protector components inside - must be a 15 amp circuit complete
    > with the most important component in that power strip: a 15 amp circuit
    > breaker.
    >
    > Responsible sources state specifically what is required for
    > protection. IEEE Red Book (IEEE Standard 141):

    <etc>
    > What is common to all recommended protection? Low impedance connection
    > and a quality earthing electrode or earthing network - the single point
    > earth ground.
    >

    For reliable information on surges and surge protection try:
    http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf
    - the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from
    lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC
    power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the
    IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic
    engineers in the US).
    - this link originall came from w_

    Or:
    http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
    - this is the "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to
    protect the appliances in your home" published by the National
    Institute of Standards and Technology (the US government agency
    formerly called the National Bureau of Standards) in 2001

    Both guides were intended for wide distribution to the general public
    to explain surges and how to protect against them. The IEEE guide was
    targeted at people who have some (not much) technical background.

    Both say plug-in surge suppressors are effective. The IEEE guide (from
    the same organization as w_'s Red Book) explains that plug-in surge
    suppressors do not work primarily by earthing.

    > All appliances contain any protection that will work on their power
    > cords. So what does that plug-in protector do? Internal appliance
    > protection maybe overwhelmed if the typically destructive surge is not
    > earthed before entering a building. Therefore protectors sold in Radio
    > Shack, Sears, Staples, Wal-mart, Best Buy, Office Max, and your grocery
    > store will not even claim such protection.

    Sure they do, and so do the IEEE and NIST. Plug-in suppressors are
    available with ratings from junk to very high.

    All interconnected equipment (like computer and printer) should be
    connected to the same plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires,
    like LAN should go through the suppressor. Other external wires like
    phone, CATV, ... also should to go thorough the suppressor. A plug-in
    suppressor works by clamping the voltage on all wires to the common
    ground at the suppressor. They do not work primarily by earthing.

    > What is not
    > found in that Belkin? 1) No dedicated earthing wire. 2) Manufacture
    > avoid all discussion about earthing. But Belkin has discovered high
    > profits in promoting myths. Another poster will be along to promote
    > those half truths.
    >

    Those half truths do not come from another poster. They come from the
    IEEE and NIST, both very reliable technical organizations. Read the
    IEEE and/or NIST guides. Then you could read w_'s sources on plug-in
    suppressors, but he doesn't have any. All you have is his opinions.

    > Another will cut and pasting references to an IEEE paper. He will
    > misrepresent that paper as a recommendation. IEEE does not make
    > recommendations in papers. IEEE makes recommendations in Standards
    > such as those in the Red Book (IEEE Standard 141), Green Book (IEEE
    > Standard 142), and Emerald Book (IEEE Standard 1100-1).

    Cited is the IEEE guide for the general public which is not a technical
    "paper". You have to really be stupid to think the IEEE guide would
    contradict the IEEE color books. If w_ could read, the Emerald Book
    includes plug-in suppressors.

    > Earthing
    > (not some protector) is protection. The plug-in industry promoter hopes
    > you don't read or grasp the paper. It demonstrates how a plug-in
    > protector can and cannot contribute to damage of the adjacent
    > appliance. It each demonstrates how the unearthed protector puts an
    > adjacent TV at 8000 volts - destructively. It demonstrates how a kid
    > with an Xbox can even compromise protection from a plug-in protector.
    >

    With reasonable reading skills anyone can read the IEEE and NIST guides
    and determine plug-in suppressors are recognized as effective. And
    that plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing. Fortunately
    a kid with an Xbox is smarter than w__.

    >
    > Cable TV wire does not need a protector. Cable must make a short
    > 'less than 10 foot' connection to earthing where it enters the
    > building. If your cable installer knows his job and if you had
    > provided him that earthing electrode, then cable should already have
    > effective protection - no protector required.
    >

    The IEEE guide shows 2 examples of surge protection in chapter 6. Both
    use plug-in suppressors. One is for a home theater. The IEEE does not
    agree with w_.

    > Plug-in protectors that cannot and do not even claim to
    > provide that protection also hope you never learn about earthing - the
    > most critical component in a protection system.

    More nonsense. According to the IEEE, plug-in suppressors do not work
    primarily by earthing.

    Highly recommend - read the NIST and/or the IEEE guides for yourself.
    Then note w_s lack of sources.

    Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

    --
    bud--
    bud--, Jan 5, 2007
    #8
  9. "w_tom" <> schreef in bericht
    news:...
    Manuals: are different from numeric specifications. Some manuals
    may contain numeric specifications. Many do not. The stuff that makes
    eyes glaze over is often forgotten when promoting myths.

    Manufacturer's warranty: Red their fine print. Others suffered
    consequences before discovering what the warranty really covers:
    Newsman on 10 Sept 2002 in the newsgroup alt.video.ptv.tivo entitled
    "SONY TiVo SVR-2000"
    > I got a Belkin surge protector with phone line protection soley for
    > Tivo purposes.
    > Yet my Tivo's modem still failed. And the '$20,000 connected
    > devices warranty' did not help me. I jumped through many
    > hoops, including finding the original recept for the surge
    > protector (just under a year old) and I sent my surge protector
    > to Belkin (paid for shipping), and was denied my warranty.
    > They gave me a ton of crap, including that it was null and void
    > b/c the Tivo was also connected to the coax line for cable (this
    > was not mentioned as a thing in the warranty that can nullify it).
    > Eventually it boiled down to a line in the warranty that said
    > "Belkin at it's sole discretion can reject any claim for any
    > reason".


    Did you read the so many fine print "outs" so that a warranty is not
    honored? Most don't. Therefore a warranty is just another half truth
    to promote an ineffective (and grossly overpriced) protector.

    Laser printer: if it created a destructive kick into the power strip
    (surge protector or otherwise), then it also does bad things to wall
    receptacles and its own power cord. The power plug defines current.
    That power plug on laser printer (and all other appliances) is
    NEMA-5-15. That means it is 15 amps max on the laser printer power
    cord. 15 amps from power strip. 15 amps from wall receptacle.

    The most important function on any power strip is its 15 amp circuit
    breaker - so that too many appliances combined do not exceed than 15
    amp rating.

    why? wrote:
    > ....
    > Was going to mention that to the OP, the Manuals link of the Belkin
    > webpage doesn't show any manuals.
    > ...
    >
    > Nice way to void the manufacturers
    > £100,000 Connected Equipment Warranty
    > Lifetime Product Warranty
    >
    > >to each strip receptacle. Is something magic between AC mains and the
    > >'protected' appliance? Of course not. Will a Laser printer overwhelm
    > >this connection? Of course not. That connection - with or without

    >
    > Some older lasers (years ago) had quite a kick starting up. The OP
    > doesn't say much about it.
    > ...
    Joost Hendricus Brandsen, Jan 6, 2007
    #9
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