Surge Protector Question

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by Greg, Oct 22, 2007.

  1. Greg

    Greg Guest

    Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We have a Xerox Work
    Center 428. Last Thursday the power flashed off and on about 5 times in a 15
    minute span. As a result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a surge
    protector prevent this? Or was the drive doomed because of the number of
    times the machine was powered down incorrectly due to the power loss? The
    tech person said an uninterrupted power supply can't be used on a printer.
    He also said a surge protector is basically useless in a situation like
    this. But I'm looking for a second opinion.

    Thanks,
    Greg
     
    Greg, Oct 22, 2007
    #1
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  2. Greg

    Evan Platt Guest

    On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:58:23 -0500, "Greg" <> wrote:

    >Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We have a Xerox Work
    >Center 428. Last Thursday the power flashed off and on about 5 times in a 15
    >minute span. As a result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a surge
    >protector prevent this?


    A surge protector can prevent SPIKES of power (too much power) but
    can't do anything if power drops.

    >Or was the drive doomed because of the number of
    >times the machine was powered down incorrectly due to the power loss? The
    >tech person said an uninterrupted power supply can't be used on a printer.


    Really? Is he smoking something?

    >He also said a surge protector is basically useless in a situation like
    >this. But I'm looking for a second opinion.


    He's correct on that.
    --
    To reply via e-mail, remove The Obvious from my e-mail address.
     
    Evan Platt, Oct 22, 2007
    #2
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  3. Greg

    olfart Guest

    "Greg" <> wrote in message
    news:mR2Ti.7106$...
    > Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We have a Xerox Work
    > Center 428. Last Thursday the power flashed off and on about 5 times in a
    > 15 minute span. As a result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a
    > surge protector prevent this? Or was the drive doomed because of the
    > number of times the machine was powered down incorrectly due to the power
    > loss? The tech person said an uninterrupted power supply can't be used on
    > a printer. He also said a surge protector is basically useless in a
    > situation like this. But I'm looking for a second opinion.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Greg

    Get a UPS that will handle the wattage of the printer. Check the APC
    website. It will protect against intermittant power outages like you
    describe. The tech was half right...a surge protector won't help, but hes
    off base on the UPS. Tell him not to quit his second job at McDonalds....he
    might need it full time.
     
    olfart, Oct 22, 2007
    #3
  4. Greg

    Whiskers Guest

    On 2007-10-22, Evan Platt <> wrote:
    > On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:58:23 -0500, "Greg" <> wrote:
    >
    >>Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We have a Xerox Work
    >>Center 428. Last Thursday the power flashed off and on about 5 times in a 15
    >>minute span. As a result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a surge
    >>protector prevent this?

    >
    > A surge protector can prevent SPIKES of power (too much power) but
    > can't do anything if power drops.
    >
    >>Or was the drive doomed because of the number of
    >>times the machine was powered down incorrectly due to the power loss? The
    >>tech person said an uninterrupted power supply can't be used on a printer.

    >
    > Really? Is he smoking something?


    The instructions for my little Belkin UPS say some laser printers might
    cause problems if run off the same (little Belkin) UPS as a computer.

    I'd say that the copier makers would be the best people to go to for
    advice, but it seems reasonable to suppose that a UPS with suitable
    characteristics should be just fine - and a very good addition to the
    copier if the mains supply is as unreliable as it sounds. That might be a
    much beefier UPS than is suitable for use with a single desktop computer.

    >>He also said a surge protector is basically useless in a situation like
    >>this. But I'm looking for a second opinion.

    >
    > He's correct on that.


    I think so too.

    --
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^
    -- Whiskers
    -- ~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Whiskers, Oct 22, 2007
    #4
  5. Greg

    Evan Platt Guest

    On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:40:10 +0100, Whiskers
    <> wrote:

    >The instructions for my little Belkin UPS say some laser printers might
    >cause problems if run off the same (little Belkin) UPS as a computer.


    Well yeah. You buy a big ass copier / printer / whatever, you buy a
    big ass UPS.
    --
    To reply via e-mail, remove The Obvious from my e-mail address.
     
    Evan Platt, Oct 22, 2007
    #5
  6. Greg

    Greg Guest

    Will do. Thanks for the info.

    I'm mainly pissed at Xerox. The hard drive in this thing is the size of a
    notebook drive and can't be very big. But since it is proprietary, Xerox
    charges an arm and a leg for the stupid thing.



    "olfart" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "Greg" <> wrote in message
    > news:mR2Ti.7106$...
    >> Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We have a Xerox Work
    >> Center 428. Last Thursday the power flashed off and on about 5 times in a
    >> 15 minute span. As a result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a
    >> surge protector prevent this? Or was the drive doomed because of the
    >> number of times the machine was powered down incorrectly due to the power
    >> loss? The tech person said an uninterrupted power supply can't be used on
    >> a printer. He also said a surge protector is basically useless in a
    >> situation like this. But I'm looking for a second opinion.
    >>
    >> Thanks,
    >> Greg

    > Get a UPS that will handle the wattage of the printer. Check the APC
    > website. It will protect against intermittant power outages like you
    > describe. The tech was half right...a surge protector won't help, but hes
    > off base on the UPS. Tell him not to quit his second job at
    > McDonalds....he might need it full time.
    >
     
    Greg, Oct 22, 2007
    #6
  7. Greg

    Gaius Baltar Guest

    On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:33:50 GMT, "Greg" <> wrote:

    >Will do. Thanks for the info.
    >
    >I'm mainly pissed at Xerox. The hard drive in this thing is the size of a
    >notebook drive and can't be very big. But since it is proprietary, Xerox
    >charges an arm and a leg for the stupid thing.


    Xerox aren't the only people to manufacture sophisticated printers.
    And the price of all printers has come down a lot these days.

    gb
     
    Gaius Baltar, Oct 23, 2007
    #7
  8. Greg

    w_tom Guest

    On Oct 22, 10:58 am, "Greg" <> wrote:
    > Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We have a Xerox Work
    > Center 428. Last Thursday the power flashed off and on about 5 times in a 15
    > minute span. As a result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a surge
    > protector prevent this? Or was the drive doomed because of the number of
    > times the machine was powered down incorrectly due to the power loss? The
    > tech person said an uninterrupted power supply can't be used on a printer.
    > He also said a surge protector is basically useless in a situation like
    > this. But I'm looking for a second opinion.


    Your answers must include technical facts. Most do not. Let's get
    down to relevant details.

    The UPS connects electricity directly to its load (copier) when not
    in battery backup mode. When it shifts to battery backup mode, the
    typical UPS then outputs some of the dirtiest electricity seen by
    electronics. For example, this 120 volt UPS in outputs two 200 volts
    square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square
    waves. A power supply is designed to make irrelevant such dirty
    electricity which is why these UPSes are also called 'computer grade'.

    However this same UPS output is so dirty as to maybe harm small
    electric motors or plug-in protectors. How many small electric motors
    in that copier connect to AC mains? The useful answer demands such
    technical details.

    What will a surge protector do? Well, again, that copier's power
    supply must make such 'dirty' electricity irrelevant. Those spikes
    are made irrelevant by copier internal circuits. Anything that a
    power strip protector might accomplish is already done in a copier's
    supply. Many who would recommend that power strip protector do not
    first learn these technical facts. Same power supply protection that
    makes that a 'dirty' UPS output irrelevant also does what that power
    strip might accomplish.

    Disk drive is powered directly from copier power supply. Nothing
    warns a disk drive that power is being lost. To a disk drive, manual
    power off (via power switch) or power loss from AC mains looks exactly
    same. Disk drive sees DC supply voltage disappearing. So disk
    drive's computer automatically shuts down. Makes no difference where
    that power loss comes from.

    Disk drive was not damage by power loss. That failure probably was
    a disk drive manufacturing defect.

    If a disk drive needed a UPS, then the copier's power supply already
    has that UPS function inside. Some specialty computers had that UPS
    inside the supply. Such designs are not popular - were difficult to
    find and were often discontinued - because a UPS did nothing for
    hardware protection and had limited purpose. When the computer needs
    a UPS, we call that a laptop.

    Each above answer includes the technical reasons why. Those who
    posted otherwise never once bothered to include the technical reasons
    for 'why'. They just declared conclusions with the assumed "trust
    me". Same logic also proved Saddam had WMDs. An answer without the
    technical 'whys' should be ignored.
     
    w_tom, Oct 23, 2007
    #8
  9. Greg wrote:
    > Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We have a Xerox Work
    > Center 428. Last Thursday the power flashed off and on about 5 times in a 15
    > minute span. As a result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a surge
    > protector prevent this? Or was the drive doomed because of the number of
    > times the machine was powered down incorrectly due to the power loss? The
    > tech person said an uninterrupted power supply can't be used on a printer.
    > He also said a surge protector is basically useless in a situation like
    > this. But I'm looking for a second opinion.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Greg
    >
    >

    GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND DUMBASS.
     
    Paige D'Winter, Oct 23, 2007
    #9
  10. Greg

    larya Guest

    On Oct 22, 10:58 am, "Greg" <> wrote:
    > Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We have a Xerox Work
    > Center 428. Last Thursday the power flashed off and on about 5 times in a 15
    > minute span. As a result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a surge
    > protector prevent this? Or was the drive doomed because of the number of
    > times the machine was powered down incorrectly due to the power loss? The
    > tech person said an uninterrupted power supply can't be used on a printer.
    > He also said a surge protector is basically useless in a situation like
    > this. But I'm looking for a second opinion.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Greg


    May I suggest that instead of a surge protector, you get a ups for the
    copy machine.. Surge protectors only hand very short spikes.. a ups
    can handle much longer power outages...
    Larry
     
    larya, Oct 24, 2007
    #10
  11. Greg

    Leythos Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > On Oct 22, 10:58 am, "Greg" <> wrote:
    > > Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We have a Xerox Work
    > > Center 428. Last Thursday the power flashed off and on about 5 times in a 15
    > > minute span. As a result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a surge
    > > protector prevent this? Or was the drive doomed because of the number of
    > > times the machine was powered down incorrectly due to the power loss? The
    > > tech person said an uninterrupted power supply can't be used on a printer.
    > > He also said a surge protector is basically useless in a situation like
    > > this. But I'm looking for a second opinion.
    > >
    > > Thanks,
    > > Greg

    >
    > May I suggest that instead of a surge protector, you get a ups for the
    > copy machine.. Surge protectors only hand very short spikes.. a ups
    > can handle much longer power outages...


    Very few UPS's can handle the load of a copier, a UPS provides POWER
    when there is no power, as long as the battery lasts, and also filters
    low/over voltage conditions in addition to surges.

    A SURGE PROTECTOR does not care about power outages as it doesn't
    provide power in the event of an outage, it doesn't have a battery, it
    only suppresses surges.

    --

    Leythos - (remove 999 to email me)

    Fight exposing kids to porn, complain about sites like PCBUTTS 1.COM
    that create filth and put it on the web for any kid to see: Just take a
    look at some of the FILTH he's created and put on his website:
    http://forums.speedguide.net/archive/index.php/t-223485.html all exposed
    to children (the link I've include does not directly display his filth).
    You can find the same information by googling for 'PCBUTTS1' and
    'exposed to kids'.
     
    Leythos, Oct 24, 2007
    #11
  12. Greg

    thanatoid Guest

    larya <> wrote in
    news::

    > On Oct 22, 10:58 am, "Greg" <> wrote:
    >> Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We
    >> have a Xerox Work Center 428. Last Thursday the power
    >> flashed off and on about 5 times in a 15 minute span. As a
    >> result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a surge
    >> protector prevent this? Or was the drive doomed because of
    >> the number of times the machine was powered down
    >> incorrectly due to the power loss? The tech person said an
    >> uninterrupted power supply can't be used on a printer.
    >> He also said a surge protector is basically useless in a
    >> situation like this. But I'm looking for a second opinion.
    >>
    >> Thanks,
    >> Greg

    >
    > May I suggest that instead of a surge protector, you get a
    > ups for the copy machine.. Surge protectors only hand very
    > short spikes.. a ups can handle much longer power
    > outages... Larry
    >
    >


    He would have pay almost as much as for the copier if he wants a
    UPS that can handle the power requirements. I don't even know if
    there IS one, and if there is, it'll be a very expensive special
    order.

    Laser printers (essentially small copiers with added features),
    let alone BIG copiers, should NOT be used with UPS's to begin
    with. It's a COPIER. What's the big deal if the power goes out?
     
    thanatoid, Oct 24, 2007
    #12
  13. Greg

    nobody > Guest

    thanatoid wrote:
    > larya <> wrote in
    > news::
    >
    >> On Oct 22, 10:58 am, "Greg" <> wrote:
    >>> Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We
    >>> have a Xerox Work Center 428. Last Thursday the power
    >>> flashed off and on about 5 times in a 15 minute span. As a
    >>> result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a surge
    >>> protector prevent this? Or was the drive doomed because of
    >>> the number of times the machine was powered down
    >>> incorrectly due to the power loss? The tech person said an
    >>> uninterrupted power supply can't be used on a printer.
    >>> He also said a surge protector is basically useless in a
    >>> situation like this. But I'm looking for a second opinion.
    >>>
    >>> Thanks,
    >>> Greg

    >> May I suggest that instead of a surge protector, you get a
    >> ups for the copy machine.. Surge protectors only hand very
    >> short spikes.. a ups can handle much longer power
    >> outages... Larry
    >>
    >>

    >
    > He would have pay almost as much as for the copier if he wants a
    > UPS that can handle the power requirements. I don't even know if
    > there IS one, and if there is, it'll be a very expensive special
    > order.


    They have one at wurk. it would fit in a large double-wide closet,
    weighs about 2 tons, and whines like a banshee in normal mode. It's
    quiet when it runs.


    > Laser printers (essentially small copiers with added features),
    > let alone BIG copiers, should NOT be used with UPS's to begin
    > with. It's a COPIER. What's the big deal if the power goes out?
     
    nobody >, Oct 24, 2007
    #13
  14. Greg

    Whiskers Guest

    On 2007-10-24, thanatoid <> wrote:
    > larya <> wrote in
    > news::
    >
    >> On Oct 22, 10:58 am, "Greg" <> wrote:
    >>> Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We
    >>> have a Xerox Work Center 428. Last Thursday the power
    >>> flashed off and on about 5 times in a 15 minute span. As a
    >>> result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a surge
    >>> protector prevent this? Or was the drive doomed because of
    >>> the number of times the machine was powered down
    >>> incorrectly due to the power loss? The tech person said an
    >>> uninterrupted power supply can't be used on a printer.
    >>> He also said a surge protector is basically useless in a
    >>> situation like this. But I'm looking for a second opinion.
    >>>
    >>> Thanks,
    >>> Greg

    >>
    >> May I suggest that instead of a surge protector, you get a
    >> ups for the copy machine.. Surge protectors only hand very
    >> short spikes.. a ups can handle much longer power
    >> outages... Larry
    >>
    >>

    >
    > He would have pay almost as much as for the copier if he wants a
    > UPS that can handle the power requirements. I don't even know if
    > there IS one, and if there is, it'll be a very expensive special
    > order.
    >
    > Laser printers (essentially small copiers with added features),
    > let alone BIG copiers, should NOT be used with UPS's to begin
    > with. It's a COPIER. What's the big deal if the power goes out?


    The one in question apparently contains a hard disc drive, so it sounds
    like one of the fancy digital 'scanner/printer' things rather than a
    straight copier. Just like any other sort of computer, uncontrolled
    shut-down is likely to mess up the data stored on the hard disc and might
    just possibly damage the hardware too. If the expense of such a machine
    is justified then the expense of a suitable UPS for it may well be
    justified too.

    --
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^
    -- Whiskers
    -- ~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Whiskers, Oct 24, 2007
    #14
  15. Greg

    Leythos Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > The one in question apparently contains a hard disc drive, so it sounds
    > like one of the fancy digital 'scanner/printer' things rather than a
    > straight copier. Just like any other sort of computer, uncontrolled
    > shut-down is likely to mess up the data stored on the hard disc and might
    > just possibly damage the hardware too. If the expense of such a machine
    > is justified then the expense of a suitable UPS for it may well be
    > justified too.


    No, not really, they are designed to correct any data or delete it. For
    copiers with disk drives, they are not expected to be on UPS devices
    because of the current load.

    We've got hundreds of copiers with Disk drives for fonts and storage of
    batch jobs, in all the years of using them without a UPS we've never had
    one fail because the power went out.

    --

    Leythos - (remove 999 to email me)

    Fight exposing kids to porn, complain about sites like PCBUTTS 1.COM
    that create filth and put it on the web for any kid to see: Just take a
    look at some of the FILTH he's created and put on his website:
    http://forums.speedguide.net/archive/index.php/t-223485.html all exposed
    to children (the link I've include does not directly display his filth).
    You can find the same information by googling for 'PCBUTTS1' and
    'exposed to kids'.
     
    Leythos, Oct 24, 2007
    #15
  16. Greg

    w_tom Guest

    On Oct 24, 7:36 am, Whiskers <> wrote:
    > Just like any other sort of computer, uncontrolled shut-down is likely
    > to mess up the data stored on the hard disc and might just possibly
    > damage the hardware too.


    What is this uncontrolled shut-down that is destructive to
    hardware? When does a disk drive learn that power is stopping? Disk
    drive is powered directly from copier power supply. Nothing warns a
    disk drive that power is being lost. To a disk drive, manual power
    off (via power switch) or power loss from AC mains looks exactly
    same. Disk drive sees DC supply voltage disappearing. So disk
    drive's computer automatically shuts down. Makes no difference where
    that power loss comes from. To a disk drive (as was even true with
    1960 disk drives), power off always occurs without warning.

    Anything 'protected by a UPS' would already be solved inside the
    copier. Any critical disk drive data that might be lost by unexpected
    power loss means the copier is 100% defective. If he needs the UPS,
    he needs another copier manufacturer.
     
    w_tom, Oct 24, 2007
    #16
  17. Greg

    thanatoid Guest

    Whiskers <> wrote in
    news:
    t:

    > On 2007-10-24, thanatoid <> wrote:
    >> larya <> wrote in
    >> news::
    >>
    >>> On Oct 22, 10:58 am, "Greg" <> wrote:
    >>>> Are they worth using on a large office copy machine? We
    >>>> have a Xerox Work Center 428. Last Thursday the power
    >>>> flashed off and on about 5 times in a 15 minute span. As
    >>>> a result, the hard drive in the Xerox died. Would a
    >>>> surge protector prevent this? Or was the drive doomed
    >>>> because of the number of times the machine was powered
    >>>> down incorrectly due to the power loss? The tech person
    >>>> said an uninterrupted power supply can't be used on a
    >>>> printer. He also said a surge protector is basically
    >>>> useless in a situation like this. But I'm looking for a
    >>>> second opinion.
    >>>>
    >>>> Thanks,
    >>>> Greg
    >>>
    >>> May I suggest that instead of a surge protector, you get
    >>> a ups for the copy machine.. Surge protectors only hand
    >>> very short spikes.. a ups can handle much longer power
    >>> outages... Larry
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> He would have pay almost as much as for the copier if he
    >> wants a UPS that can handle the power requirements. I
    >> don't even know if there IS one, and if there is, it'll be
    >> a very expensive special order.
    >>
    >> Laser printers (essentially small copiers with added
    >> features), let alone BIG copiers, should NOT be used with
    >> UPS's to begin with. It's a COPIER. What's the big deal if
    >> the power goes out?

    >
    > The one in question apparently contains a hard disc drive,
    > so it sounds like one of the fancy digital
    > 'scanner/printer' things rather than a straight copier.
    > Just like any other sort of computer, uncontrolled
    > shut-down is likely to mess up the data stored on the hard
    > disc and might just possibly damage the hardware too. If
    > the expense of such a machine is justified then the expense
    > of a suitable UPS for it may well be justified too.
    >


    I looked it up. It's just a digital (ie connects to a print
    server) laser printer/copier of an average size, with a bunch of
    drawers and trays sticking out all over, with a "hard disk print
    option" which sounds like a good excuse to sell an 80MB HD
    (that's the size) for $800.
     
    thanatoid, Oct 24, 2007
    #17
  18. Greg

    Evan Platt Guest

    On 24 Oct 2007 17:17:29 GMT, thanatoid <>
    wrote:

    >I looked it up. It's just a digital (ie connects to a print
    >server) laser printer/copier of an average size, with a bunch of
    >drawers and trays sticking out all over, with a "hard disk print
    >option" which sounds like a good excuse to sell an 80MB HD
    >(that's the size) for $800.


    80MB?

    Sure that's not GB?

    Slimballs making usenet look like their forums:

    http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t546064-surge-protector-question.html

    Time to send them an e-mail telling them my posts are myne, and they
    have no permission to archive them.

    I suggest others do so too.
    --
    To reply via e-mail, remove The Obvious from my e-mail address.
     
    Evan Platt, Oct 24, 2007
    #18
  19. Greg

    Leythos Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > Any critical disk drive data that might be lost by unexpected
    > power loss means the copier is 100% defective. If he needs the UPS,
    > he needs another copier manufacturer.


    Actually, that's incorrect W_TOM, since you don't understand data or
    disk drives.

    If the user was sending a batch job or fonts to the copier and the power
    went off, it could not complete the transfer and would corrupt the data
    sent to it - since there is no way to write it once the power is cutoff.

    Now, depending on how things are handled, when power is returned, the
    copier firmware may just delete the file or may alert that there is a
    corruption on the drive.

    In most cases the copier programming is designed to handle this - there
    is no hardware damage only data damage that could cause a problem.

    --

    Leythos - (remove 999 to email me)

    Fight exposing kids to porn, complain about sites like PCBUTTS 1.COM
    that create filth and put it on the web for any kid to see: Just take a
    look at some of the FILTH he's created and put on his website:
    http://forums.speedguide.net/archive/index.php/t-223485.html all exposed
    to children (the link I've include does not directly display his filth).
    You can find the same information by googling for 'PCBUTTS1' and
    'exposed to kids'.
     
    Leythos, Oct 24, 2007
    #19
  20. Greg

    Guest

    , Oct 24, 2007
    #20
    1. Advertising

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