Surge Protector Question

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by rmckeever@gmail.com, Mar 24, 2007.

  1. Guest

    I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
    a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
    to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
    protector
    still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
    useless?
     
    , Mar 24, 2007
    #1
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  2. Whiskers Guest

    On 2007-03-24, <> wrote:
    > I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
    > a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
    > to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
    > protector
    > still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
    > useless?


    That's the least of your problems. Get the house re-wired properly.

    --
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^
    -- Whiskers
    -- ~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Whiskers, Mar 24, 2007
    #2
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  3. Leythos Guest

    On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 05:54:51 -0700, rmckeever wrote:
    >
    > I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
    > a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
    > to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
    > protector
    > still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
    > useless?


    The surge, where you protect from either leg to ground will not do
    anything for you. Only the surge between the two wires will be given any
    limited protection, depending on the actual device.

    Without a REAL GROUND you are almost unprotected, and considering most
    surges, you are completely unprotected against those types.

    Get a contractor to install a properly grounded system for you, you don't
    have to do all rooms (but that would be best), but get the ones where your
    TV, Computer, Video/Audio, etc... hardware are installed.


    --
    Leythos
    (remove 999 for proper email address)
     
    Leythos, Mar 24, 2007
    #3
  4. SgtMinor Guest

    wrote:
    > I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
    > a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
    > to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
    > protector
    > still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
    > useless?
    >


    The surge protector will not work as designed without a proper ground.
    But just because the house has ungrounded receptacles does not mean you
    are in danger. You can still install GFCI receptacles if you mark them
    as being ungrounded, and be protected from electrocution.

    For your computer installation consider buying a battery backup system.
    It will clean up most of the irregularity in the electricity supply
    and it's probably less expensive than having a new circuit installed.
     
    SgtMinor, Mar 24, 2007
    #4
  5. Guest

    On Mar 24, 9:26 am, SgtMinor <> wrote:
    > wrote:
    > > I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
    > > a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
    > > to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
    > > protector
    > > still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
    > > useless?

    >
    > The surge protector will not work as designed without a proper ground.
    > But just because the house has ungrounded receptacles does not mean you
    > are in danger. You can still install GFCI receptacles if you mark them
    > as being ungrounded, and be protected from electrocution.
    >
    > For your computer installation consider buying a battery backup system.
    > It will clean up most of the irregularity in the electricity supply
    > and it's probably less expensive than having a new circuit installed.


    Thanks for all the help, it's not my house so rewiring is out of the
    question,
    guess I'll get the backup.
     
    , Mar 24, 2007
    #5
  6. Leythos Guest

    On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:19:13 -0700, rmckeever wrote:

    > On Mar 24, 9:26 am, SgtMinor <> wrote:
    >> wrote:
    >> > I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
    >> > a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
    >> > to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
    >> > protector
    >> > still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
    >> > useless?

    >>
    >> The surge protector will not work as designed without a proper ground.
    >> But just because the house has ungrounded receptacles does not mean you
    >> are in danger. You can still install GFCI receptacles if you mark them
    >> as being ungrounded, and be protected from electrocution.
    >>
    >> For your computer installation consider buying a battery backup system.
    >> It will clean up most of the irregularity in the electricity supply
    >> and it's probably less expensive than having a new circuit installed.

    >
    > Thanks for all the help, it's not my house so rewiring is out of the
    > question,
    > guess I'll get the backup.


    A battery backup will only help you if you have problems with keeping
    power ON or if you have noise on the power lines - but, many UPS devices
    that are cheap don't actually clean the power, so make sure you get one
    that does.

    A UPS without a ground provides little or no protection agaisnt the common
    surges that you want to be protected from.

    --
    Leythos
    (remove 999 for proper email address)
     
    Leythos, Mar 24, 2007
    #6
  7. Jerry G. Guest

    What you really need is a UPS, and have a ground installed for the
    computer outlet. These surge protectors are really a waste of money,
    because they cannot work with brown-outs which do the most damage.

    The power supply in the computer must meet UL, CSA, and EC standards.
    This also means that there is built in serge protection already.

    With a UPS, if there is a brown-out, or the power becomes out of
    specifications, the inverter in the UPS will be switched in, and the
    computer will keep going as if nothing ever happened to the power line.

    --

    Jerry G.


    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
    a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
    to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
    protector
    still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
    useless?
     
    Jerry G., Mar 24, 2007
    #7
  8. On 2007-03-24, in 24hoursupport.helpdesk, Whiskers waxed eloquently:
    > On 2007-03-24, <> wrote:
    >> I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
    >> a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
    >> to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
    >> protector
    >> still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
    >> useless?

    >
    > That's the least of your problems. Get the house re-wired properly.
    >


    I'll agree with that. Get the landlord to fix it right. Or find
    another place to live before the place burns down or someone is
    electrocuted.

    (Aside to Whiskers) Ever seen one of those old places with ungrounded
    wiring and fused neutrals? And someone blows the neutral fuse, and
    replaces it with a higher-rated fuse than is on the hot side? Now
    that can be a real killer.


    --
    The Old Sourdough
    Man is a military animal, glories in gunpowder, and loves parade.
    -- P.J. Bailey
     
    The Old Sourdough, Mar 24, 2007
    #8
  9. Whiskers Guest

    On 2007-03-24, The Old Sourdough <> wrote:
    > On 2007-03-24, in 24hoursupport.helpdesk, Whiskers waxed eloquently:
    >> On 2007-03-24, <> wrote:
    >>> I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
    >>> a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
    >>> to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
    >>> protector
    >>> still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
    >>> useless?

    >>
    >> That's the least of your problems. Get the house re-wired properly.
    >>

    >
    > I'll agree with that. Get the landlord to fix it right. Or find
    > another place to live before the place burns down or someone is
    > electrocuted.
    >
    > (Aside to Whiskers) Ever seen one of those old places with ungrounded
    > wiring and fused neutrals? And someone blows the neutral fuse, and
    > replaces it with a higher-rated fuse than is on the hot side? Now
    > that can be a real killer.


    I don't think it has ever been legal to have no working 'earth' connection
    on a mains electrical installation here in the UK - but I have seen some
    pretty scary DIY stuff, including 'anything made of metal' used in the
    main fuse-box, in rented rooms. 250 volts does more than make you tingle!
    I've also come across a 3KW heater plugged in via a 5-amp 'extension'
    cable - the flex was smoking when I saw it. I think people should have to
    qualify for a licence before being allowed to use any appliance that needs
    more that 12 volts or 1 amp.

    --
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^
    -- Whiskers
    -- ~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Whiskers, Mar 24, 2007
    #9
  10. w_tom Guest

    On Mar 24, 11:19 am, wrote:
    > Thanks for all the help, it's not my house so rewiring is out of the
    > question,
    > guess I'll get the backup


    First, battery backup has same circuit found in power strip
    protectors. Why would that be any better protection? Furthermore,
    joules rating is so low as to be equivalent to zero protection. IOW
    they put in just enough to claim a surge protector circuit on color
    glossy propaganda - and hope you don't notice that number is essential
    zero.

    Second, let's assume a plug-in protector will ground a surge. OK.
    So that surge will travel back a safety ground wire that is bundled
    with other wires. Now a transient is induces on all those other wires
    and other appliances. Where is the protection? They hope you don't
    notice another fact. It does not even claim to protect from surges
    that 1) typically do damage and 2) require earthing to eliminate.
    Just a second reason why effective protection is not provided. Yes,
    near zero protection is sufficient to claim it protects - and why they
    hope you will confuse safety ground with earth ground.

    Safety grounds on wall receptacles will not provide surge
    protection. It's called a safety ground or equipment ground- not
    earth ground - for good reason. Effective protection has always been
    about *earthing* BEFORE a transient can enter a building. Last
    paragraph summarizes a complete solution. One superior 'whole house'
    protector not only cost tens of times less money per protected
    appliance. Effective protector also has that dedicated earthing wire
    - an essential 'less than 10 foot' connection.

    No reason to rewire a building. No earth ground (not just any
    ground) means no effective protection. Rewire an entire building and
    not upgrade the earthing? Then still have no effective protection.
    Why? Earthing is the protection. Upgrade breaker box earthing to
    both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements.
    That means an earthing electrode (ie ground rod) 'less than 10 feet'
    from the AC mains box. That also means all other utilities must make
    that same 'less than 10 foot' connection to earthing before entering
    the building.

    Meanwhile, what did some here forget to mention? Necessary is not
    just any ground. Required is a single point *earth* ground. Those who
    ignored "earthing" were also promoting mythical solutions. After
    all, what does lightning seek when it destroys household appliances?
    Earth ground. What happens to that direct lightning strike that does
    not damage appliances? It gets earthed before entering a building.

    Why does you telco with overhead wires everywhere in town not
    disconnect their switching computer during every thunderstorm? They
    do same earthing. Best protector is only feet from earthing and up to
    50 meters from the computer. Again - 'whole house' protector. Every
    wire connects to earth ground before entering the building. That '50
    meter' separation is also part of the protection. Why is your telco
    service not down all week to replace their computer? Typically 100
    direct strikes to a CO over a 5 month period results in no damage when
    earthing - not a plug-in protector - provides protection. Learn how
    real world protection was routinely installed long before WWII. A
    solution that costs tens of times less money per appliance. A
    solution denied by those who promote a plug-in myth.

    A protector is not protection. When promoting ineffective solutions
    to the naive, others here have and will promote a protector as
    protection. Reality: a protector is a connecting device to
    protection. What is the protection? Earth ground.

    Install that earth ground. A water pipe is typically not sufficient
    - too far away, not sufficient even for post 1990 NEC requirements,
    and other problems. Earthing connection must be 'less than 10
    feet' ... either via a hardwire or via a surge protector ... to that
    single point ground.

    Every name in this following list should be known to you as
    responsible manufacturers. Manufacturers of 'whole house' protectors:
    GE, Siemens, Square D, Leviton, Intermatic, and Cutler-Hammer. Each
    protector also has the critical and dedicated earthing wire which is
    why building earth ground must be upgraded. Effective 'whole house'
    protector is sold even in Lowes and Home Depot. One protector.
    Superior protection. Less money. No safety ground outlets. Just a
    few reasons why this is your solution.

    Where have ineffective protectors been seen? Sears, K-mart, Wal-
    mart, Radio Shack, Circuit City, Staples, Best Buy, Office Max, and
    your grocery store. The grocery store protector is a same circuit
    sold in Circuit City for $100+. But then this paragraph is about
    ineffective protectors. How do you know it is ineffective? Where is
    a dedicated earthing wire? Where do they discuss "earth" ground?
    They don't. Such protectors are promoted by myths.

    Soon will arrive a troll who claims earth ground is not necessary
    for protection. He will 'cut and paste' his routine half truths.
    Then a long post will demonstrate facts he forget to mention. How to
    identify ineffective protectors and posts that promote myths? Where
    do they discuss that 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth? No
    earth ground (what lightning seeks) means no effective protection.
    No, that wall receptacle safety ground is too far away, bundled with
    too many wires, and so many other reasons to be ineffective earthing.

    Upgrade earthing to exceed post 1990 NEC code requirements. Install
    a 'whole house' protector. Connect all other utilities (that
    telephone company "installed for free" 'whole house' protector and the
    cable) 'less than 10 feet' to same earth ground. A superior solution
    that costs tens and maybe thousands times less money. Meanwhile even
    that battery backup does not claim to protect from typically
    destructive surges. How do you know? Where is the dedicated earthing
    wire? No earth ground means no effective protection.
     
    w_tom, Mar 25, 2007
    #10
  11. Leythos Guest

    On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:41:26 -0700, w_tom wrote:

    > On Mar 24, 11:19 am, wrote:
    >> Thanks for all the help, it's not my house so rewiring is out of the
    >> question,
    >> guess I'll get the backup

    >
    > First, battery backup has same circuit found in power strip
    > protectors. Why would that be any better protection?


    Because, once again, you spread pure BS - they do not have the same
    electronics.

    > Furthermore,
    > joules rating is so low as to be equivalent to zero protection. IOW
    > they put in just enough to claim a surge protector circuit on color
    > glossy propaganda - and hope you don't notice that number is essential
    > zero.
    >
    > Second, let's assume a plug-in protector will ground a surge.


    First, lets assume that you read the OP's post and he clearly mentioned
    that he has no ground at all in his building.
    --
    Leythos
    (remove 999 for proper email address)
     
    Leythos, Mar 25, 2007
    #11
  12. w_tom Guest

    On Mar 24, 8:44 pm, Leythos <> wrote:
    > Because, once again, you spread pure BS - they do not have the same
    > electronics.


    Once again Leythos will attack the messenger because that technician
    did not learn as an engineer. Leythos will eventually use his
    'invisible protectors' as proof that plug-in protectors are effective
    - once personal attacks don't work.

    Repeatedly posted - and for engineering reasons - are references to
    'single point' earthing and to 'less than 10 feet'. Provided were but
    two (in a long list of) reasons why an AC wall receptacle is not
    earthing. Leythos cannot challenge the science. He must attack the
    messenger.

    The OP is warned that many will post myths because they did not even
    learn from manufacturer datasheets, the IEEE, an industry benchmark
    (Polyphaser), or by designing this stuff many decades ago. How do we
    know Leythos has not a clue? He avoids all discussion about
    earthing. No earth ground means no effective protection. Somehow a
    magic box will stop, block, or absorb what three miles of sky could
    not? That is what Leythos must claim next. But first he must post a
    personal attack. That is how plug-in protectors get promoted.

    Upgrade the household earthing and install a 'whole house'
    protector. Instead use technology even used by the US Army so that
    munition dumps do not explode. Properly earthed 'whole house'
    protectors are that much superior.
     
    w_tom, Mar 25, 2007
    #12
  13. On 2007-03-24, in 24hoursupport.helpdesk, The Old Sourdough waxed eloquently:
    snip
    > replaces it with a higher-rated fuse than is on the hot side? Now
    > that can be a real killer.
    >
    >


    Sheesh.. Meant to say a lower-rated fuse....

    --
    The Old Sourdough
    So, is the glass half empty, half full, or just twice as
    large as it needs to be?
     
    The Old Sourdough, Mar 25, 2007
    #13
  14. Guest

    On Mar 24, 2:29 pm, Whiskers <> wrote:
    > On 2007-03-24, <> wrote:
    >
    > > I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
    > > a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
    > > to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
    > > protector
    > > still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
    > > useless?

    >
    > That's the least of your problems. Get the house re-wired properly.
    >
    > --
    > -- ^^^^^^^^^^
    > -- Whiskers
    > -- ~~~~~~~~~~


    im only guessing but i whould think it whould work coz thay work by
    using a week link like a fuse i whould definatly give it a try but get
    a good one and never try take them appert
     
    , Mar 25, 2007
    #14
  15. Leythos Guest

    On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 07:50:47 -0700, stansfieldpeter wrote:

    > On Mar 24, 2:29 pm, Whiskers <> wrote:
    >> On 2007-03-24, <> wrote:
    >>
    >> > I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
    >> > a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
    >> > to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
    >> > protector
    >> > still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
    >> > useless?

    >>
    >> That's the least of your problems. Get the house re-wired properly.
    >>

    >
    > im only guessing but i whould think it whould work coz thay work by
    > using a week link like a fuse i whould definatly give it a try but get
    > a good one and never try take them appert


    Only the worthless units use a "fuse" like link. A good quality UPS with
    filtering and protection ability will run about $150 for the lowest end
    units. They are all about worthless without a proper ground.

    --
    Leythos
    (remove 999 for proper email address)
     
    Leythos, Mar 25, 2007
    #15
  16. bud-- Guest

    On Mar 24, 6:41 pm, "w_tom" <> wrote:
    > On Mar 24, 11:19 am, wrote:
    >
    > > Thanks for all the help, it's not my house so rewiring is out of the
    > > question,
    > > guess I'll get the backup

    >

    The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
    http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf
    - the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from
    lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to
    AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005
    (the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic
    engineers in the US).

    And also:
    http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
    - this is the "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to
    protect the appliances in your home" published by the National
    Institute of Standards and Technology (the US government agency
    formerly called the National Bureau of Standards) in 2001

    Both guides were intended for wide distribution to the general public
    to explain surges and how to protect against them. The IEEE guide was
    targeted at people who have some (not much) technical background.

    >
    > Second, let's assume a plug-in protector will ground a surge. OK.
    > So that surge will travel back a safety ground wire that is bundled
    > with other wires. Now a transient is induces on all those other wires
    > and other appliances. Where is the protection? They hope you don't
    > notice another fact. It does not even claim to protect from surges
    > that 1) typically do damage and 2) require earthing to eliminate.
    > Just a second reason why effective protection is not provided. Yes,
    > near zero protection is sufficient to claim it protects - and why they
    > hope you will confuse safety ground with earth ground.
    >

    Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.
    Manufacturers of plug-in suppressors certainly "claim" the devices
    are effective.

    > Safety grounds on wall receptacles will not provide surge
    > protection. It's called a safety ground or equipment ground- not
    > earth ground - for good reason. Effective protection has always been
    > about *earthing* BEFORE a transient can enter a building.

    As described in the IEEE guide, plug-in suppressors clamp the voltage
    on all wires to the common ground at the suppressor. They do no work
    primarily by earthing.

    > Effective protector also has that dedicated earthing wire
    > - an essential 'less than 10 foot' connection.

    w_ has a religious belief in earthing. It is not shared by the IEEE or
    NIST with regard to plug-in suppressors - they work primarily by
    clamping.

    >
    > No reason to rewire a building. No earth ground (not just any
    > ground) means no effective protection.

    Statement of religious belief in earthing #2.

    > Rewire an entire building and
    > not upgrade the earthing? Then still have no effective protection.
    > Why? Earthing is the protection.

    Statement of religious belief in earthing #3.

    >
    > A protector is not protection. When promoting ineffective solutions
    > to the naive, others here have and will promote a protector as
    > protection. Reality: a protector is a connecting device to
    > protection. What is the protection? Earth ground.

    Statement of religious belief in earthing #4. Among the naive that say
    plug-in suppressors are effective are the IEEE and NIST.

    > How do you know it is ineffective? Where is
    > a dedicated earthing wire? Where do they discuss "earth" ground?
    > They don't. Such protectors are promoted by myths.

    Statement of religious belief in earthing #5. The IEEE guide discusses
    earth ground. But earthing is not primarily how plug-in suppressors
    work. That violates w_'s religious belief in earthing so he can't
    understand the guides.

    >
    > Soon will arrive a troll who claims earth ground is not necessary
    > for protection. He will 'cut and paste' his routine half truths.

    The troll has already arrived. w_, being evangelical in his belief in
    earthing, searches google groups for "lightning" or "surge" to "cut
    and paste" his religious tract to convert the heathens.

    For reliable information, not half truths, read the IEEE and/or NIST
    guides.

    > No
    > earth ground (what lightning seeks) means no effective protection.

    Statement of religious belief in earthing #6.


    > Where is the dedicated earthing
    > wire? No earth ground means no effective protection.

    Statement of religious belief in earthing #7.

    Changing the system earthing or installing a power service surge
    suppressor are irrelevant to the OP who does not own the house.



    I don't see how a UPS would improve things. A UPS may or may not have
    effective surge protection, and provides protection from voltage loss
    which is not the OP's question.

    The best fix is moving the equipment to a location with a grounded
    outlet.

    A plug-in suppressor, as Leythos said, would provide hot-to-neutral
    surge protection. That would be better than nothing. All
    interconnected equipment, like a printer, has to be connected to the
    same suppressor. And if a phone wire connects to the computer that
    also has to be connected through the suppressor. I would not recommend
    doing that with no system ground.

    --
    bud--
     
    bud--, Mar 25, 2007
    #16
  17. CS Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
    > a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
    > to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
    > protector
    > still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
    > useless?
    >


    It's probably useless.

    The good news is the power supply built into your PC will handle all kinds
    of nasty power, and it's far more effective than those cheap surge
    protectors you find at your local store.

    You really do need a grounded outlet, though. It may be a cheap fix, so I
    strongly suggest you call an electrician and see what he can do. Depending
    on where you live, you may be able to ask or insist the landlord fix this.
    If not, some extreme diplomacy might get him to share the cost. This isn't
    just about your computer's safety, but your body's as well.

    Depending on how important this computer is, it may be worth having it's own
    circuit installed. If you use it for work, or otherwise would be in deep
    doodoo if it died, it may be worth a couple hundred bucks to do this. If
    you experience frequent brownouts or blackouts, you probably want to invest
    in a good UPS, which will add additional protection. The good ones start at
    around $200. The cheaper ones don't offer any protection, and are best
    avoided.

    As you can see, surge protection is a hotly debated item. What some folks,
    especially 'engineers', forget, is that the end user, who is just some guy
    who wants to plug something in and have it work properly, doesn't want to
    hear about endless NEC codes, transients, ground loops, widgets and
    whatnots, nor does he plan on retrofitting a rental house or apartment with
    thousands of dollars of equipment.

    Fact is, if you have halfway decent power coming to your house, you could
    most likely operate for years the way you are with no ill effects. I
    wouldn't recommend it, but it's hardly an issue that should alarm you
    greatly.

    CS
     
    CS, Mar 25, 2007
    #17
  18. w_tom Guest

    On Mar 25, 12:08 pm, "CS" <> wrote:
    > As you can see, surge protection is a hotly debated item. What some folks,
    > especially 'engineers', forget, is that the end user, who is just some guy
    > who wants to plug something in and have it work properly, doesn't want to
    > hear about endless NEC codes, transients, ground loops, widgets and
    > whatnots, nor does he plan on retrofitting a rental house or apartment with
    > thousands of dollars of equipment.


    Which is exactly why a homeowner needs something simpler and that
    actually does provide protection. Earthing must be upgraded to exceed
    post 1990 NEC requirements. No way around that fact. Then one 'whole
    house' protector is installed. What will a plug-in protector do? No
    earth ground means ... where is that complex?

    What can happen to a pile of desktop papers or the rug behind the
    furniture when something ineffective and grossly undersized is
    installed? Scary pictures of protectors that meet existing standards:
    http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
    http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge Protectors.pdf
    http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
    http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

    Those scary pictures are current technology plug-in protectors -
    even if he spent $thousands to rewire a house. A quick visit to Lowes
    or Home Depot well find a 'whole house' protector for less than $50.
    A protector that is sufficiently sized. Better 'whole house'
    protectors are also available - also from the many responsible
    manufacturers. What is the alternative - if the OP spent $thousands
    to rewire his house? View those scary pictures. Then install the
    earthing and one 'whole house' protector. No one else has even come
    close to providing the OP with a better solution.

    For the OP, even the UPS recommendation was a completely bogus
    recommendation - as posted previously. Nothing complex about it.
    Upgrade the earthing - which is not the third prong on wall
    receptacles. Install one 'whole house' protector. Have protection
    that was standard and effective even 70 years ago.

    Remember what the OP has - two wire outlets. No safety ground. Just
    another reason why plug-in protectors and the same circuit inside a
    UPS would not be effective.
     
    w_tom, Mar 26, 2007
    #18
  19. CS Guest

    "w_tom" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mar 25, 12:08 pm, "CS" <> wrote:
    >> As you can see, surge protection is a hotly debated item. What some
    >> folks,
    >> especially 'engineers', forget, is that the end user, who is just some
    >> guy
    >> who wants to plug something in and have it work properly, doesn't want to
    >> hear about endless NEC codes, transients, ground loops, widgets and
    >> whatnots, nor does he plan on retrofitting a rental house or apartment
    >> with
    >> thousands of dollars of equipment.

    >
    > Which is exactly why a homeowner needs something simpler and that
    > actually does provide protection. Earthing must be upgraded to exceed
    > post 1990 NEC requirements. No way around that fact. Then one 'whole
    > house' protector is installed. What will a plug-in protector do? No
    > earth ground means ... where is that complex?


    It's not his house. Who's going to do wiring upgrades on somebody else's
    property? If this doesn't make sense to you, then I suggest you contact the
    OP and offer to pay for the upgrades.

    > What can happen to a pile of desktop papers or the rug behind the
    > furniture when something ineffective and grossly undersized is
    > installed? Scary pictures of protectors that meet existing standards:
    > http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
    > http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge Protectors.pdf
    > http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
    > http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
    >
    > Those scary pictures are current technology plug-in protectors -
    > even if he spent $thousands to rewire a house. A quick visit to Lowes
    > or Home Depot well find a 'whole house' protector for less than $50.


    Leviton whole-house surge protector $214.99 + shipping, tax
    Estimated labor for install $300+

    Now we're at a minimum of $500 to upgrade somebody else's electrical wiring.

    > A protector that is sufficiently sized. Better 'whole house'
    > protectors are also available - also from the many responsible
    > manufacturers. What is the alternative - if the OP spent $thousands
    > to rewire his house? View those scary pictures. Then install the
    > earthing and one 'whole house' protector. No one else has even come
    > close to providing the OP with a better solution.


    Define "better solution".

    I hardly think 'better solution' means spending $500 on a rental property,
    while running the risk of getting evicted and possibly end up paying for
    REMOVAL of the upgrade, which in many states is entirely possible.

    How much is his computer worth? How bad does he need it? What's the
    quality of the mains feed to the house? Does he have any high power
    equipment, such as welders?

    Scary pictures are one thing, but if you don't have the slightest idea what
    the whole situation is, you aren't even in a position to make a "better
    solution".

    > For the OP, even the UPS recommendation was a completely bogus
    > recommendation - as posted previously.


    Seems you could use an update on modern, medium to high end UPS's. In
    essence, they charge the batteries on mains power, but also run an inveter
    100% of the time, so when the mains cut off, you have no interuption of
    power. This also has the effect or isolating the circuit past the UPS.
    Since the inverter is regulated, the equipment is safe from any realistic
    voltage spike through the mains.

    Oh, and when the OP decides to move, he can take his UPS with him.

    > Nothing complex about it.
    > Upgrade the earthing - which is not the third prong on wall
    > receptacles. Install one 'whole house' protector. Have protection
    > that was standard and effective even 70 years ago.


    Are you saying every house built in the past 70 years has all the bells and
    doodads you've mentioned?

    My house, built in in the 40's, does not, nor did my last house, built in
    the 60's.

    CS

    > Remember what the OP has - two wire outlets. No safety ground. Just
    > another reason why plug-in protectors and the same circuit inside a
    > UPS would not be effective.
    >
     
    CS, Mar 26, 2007
    #19
  20. w_tom Guest

    At first, I thought CS was an honest poster. Well, CS wants all to
    believe a 'whole house' protector must cost $200+. He deceives.
    Sufficiently sized 'whole house' protector from Intermatic, GE, and
    Cutler-Hammer are sold in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.
    Yes, larger and better protectors do cost $hundreds. But sufficient
    protectors are even sold in Home Depot and Lowes for less than
    $50 ... an honest post. This paragraph repeats what was posted
    previously before CS posted deception.

    To define "better solution" ... again:
    1) Protector that does not require $thousands to install three wire
    receptacles.

    2) Rewiring is required for a plug-in protector or a plug-in UPS;
    necessary for human safety. Rewiring still does not earth for
    transistor safety. Neither 'magic box' claims protection from
    destructive surges even if wall wiring is replaced.

    3) Protection means earth ground is required. No way around earthing
    that meets and exceeds post 1990 National Electrical Code
    requirements. Reality is that simple. Earthing not just for
    transistor safety. Earthing also required for human safety.

    4) What are household critical electronics during events that create
    surges? Smoke detectors. Kitchen and bathroom GFCIs. To protect
    human life when most needed, these devices also require 'whole house'
    surge protection. A human safety solution that also protects his
    computer on two wire receptacles. That's four times a 'better
    solution'. If CS understood basic electrical concepts, then he knew
    all this. Meanwhile more reasons.

    5) Where does a plug-in protector or UPS even claim to provide
    protection from typically destructive surges. Neither makes that
    claim as demonstrated by spec sheet numbers the CS forgot to read.
    Still, manufacturer requires three wire wall receptacles. $thousands
    for 3 wire outlets and it still does not claim to protect?

    6) Telco installs a 'whole house' protector. Why? Telco "installed
    for free" solution is both inexpensive and effective. Superior
    solution also required by the OP on AC mains.

    7) OP requests a less expensive solution that works on a two wire
    electrical system. Only solution is also the superior solution: a
    'whole house' protector and earthing. So simple that a caveman can
    purchase it in Lowes and Home Depot - the 'do it yourself' stores.

    CS- you are expected to know simplest technicals before posting.
    Your claim of 'modern' protection inside a 'modern' UPS is totally
    bogus. That silly little transistor inside an inverter will stop
    what three miles of sky could not. CS makes that claim. Meanwhile if
    an inverter protects from surges, then a superior inverter inside all
    computer power supplies already provides 100% protection. Meanwhile,
    the UPS connects comptuer directly to AC mains when not in battery
    backup mode. CS has just posted another classic myth. Obvious: CS
    has no idea what is inside a UPS nor even read its numerical specs.
    Had CS read specs, well, it is a same protector circuit inside grocery
    store protectors. But again, CS is expected to learn before posting
    myths. Suddenly a silly little transistor will stop what three miles
    of sky could not? Yes - according to CS who even invents this
    inverter rather than learn how UPSes work.

    To the OP: a 'whole house' protector is your only effective
    solution. Consider doing same with a kludge solution. Get a plug-in
    protector of largest joules. Cut its power cord as short as possible
    (short wire connections are critical). Plug that protector into an AC
    receptacle attached to breaker box. Make sure computer is powered
    from same 'half' of breaker box as that breaker box receptacle. Some
    protection if the breaker box has a short ('less than 10 foot')
    connection to earth. This kludge attempts what makes a 'whole house'
    protector so effective. Again, the person who learned this stuff many
    decades ago again provides another solution ... and does not
    misrepresent prices to intentionally deceive you.

    If CS had introductory electrical knowledge, then what he calls
    "bells and doodads" would be understood. Details provided by CS
    promote plug-in UPS using same myths that also promote HeadOn. No
    numbers. No reasons. No manufacturer specs. A subjective 'its works
    because it is modern' mythology - also called junk science. He now
    claims a silly little transistor will magically stop lightning. When
    they complain why more than 50% of America's engineers are now
    immigrants, well, view CS as a reason.

    OP now has a useful solution, a kludge solution, intentional
    deception from CS, and the fundamental concept: "protection is only
    as effective as its earth ground".

    On Mar 25, 9:57 pm, "CS" <> wrote:
    > ...
    > It's not his house. Who's going to do wiring upgrades on somebody else's
    > property? If this doesn't make sense to you, then I suggest you contact the
    > OP and offer to pay for the upgrades.
    > ...
    >
    > Leviton whole-house surge protector $214.99 + shipping, tax
    > Estimated labor for install $300+
    >
    > Now we're at a minimum of $500 to upgrade somebody else's electrical wiring.
    > ...
    >
    > Define "better solution".
    >
    > I hardly think 'better solution' means spending $500 on a rental property,
    > while running the risk of getting evicted and possibly end up paying for
    > REMOVAL of the upgrade, which in many states is entirely possible.
    >
    > How much is his computer worth? How bad does he need it? What's the
    > quality of the mains feed to the house? Does he have any high power
    > equipment, such as welders?
    >
    > Scary pictures are one thing, but if you don't have the slightest idea what
    > the whole situation is, you aren't even in a position to make a "better
    > solution".
    > ...
    >
    > Seems you could use an update on modern, medium to high end UPS's. In
    > essence, they charge the batteries on mains power, but also run an inveter
    > 100% of the time, so when the mains cut off, you have no interuption of
    > power. This also has the effect or isolating the circuit past the UPS.
    > Since the inverter is regulated, the equipment is safe from any realistic
    > voltage spike through the mains.
    >
    > Oh, and when the OP decides to move, he can take his UPS with him.
    > ...
    >
    > Are you saying every house built in the past 70 years has all the bells and
    > doodads you've mentioned?
    >
    > My house, built in in the 40's, does not, nor did my last house, built in
    > the 60's.
     
    w_tom, Mar 26, 2007
    #20
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