Surface Condition and Read Speed

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Bob, Aug 23, 2005.

  1. Bob

    Bob Guest

    I have a new video DL DVD which I ripped with Decrypter in 16.5
    mintues on a NEC 3540. I ripped it in Full Disc mode with Shrink in
    19.5 minutes. So far so good. I could not better those times with the
    Sony/LiteOn I returned to the store - aka "The Coaster Maker".

    I wiped the disc on my t-shirt to remove a finger smudge on the very
    edge. My t-shirt is clean from this morning but it is the slightest
    bit damn compliments of living in a subtropical swamp.

    Shrink demanded 1.5 HOURS to rip that DVD. I then wiped the disc with
    a clean piece of cotton cloth. Now Shrink was back to its usual 20
    minutes estimate.

    The moral of this story is that although you may think the disc is
    clean, but the surface could have contaminants which radically effect
    the NEC 3540's reading performance.
     
    Bob, Aug 23, 2005
    #1
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  2. Bob

    old jon Guest

    "Bob" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I have a new video DL DVD which I ripped with Decrypter in 16.5
    > mintues on a NEC 3540. I ripped it in Full Disc mode with Shrink in
    > 19.5 minutes. So far so good. I could not better those times with the
    > Sony/LiteOn I returned to the store - aka "The Coaster Maker".
    >
    > I wiped the disc on my t-shirt to remove a finger smudge on the very
    > edge. My t-shirt is clean from this morning but it is the slightest
    > bit damn compliments of living in a subtropical swamp.
    >
    > Shrink demanded 1.5 HOURS to rip that DVD. I then wiped the disc with
    > a clean piece of cotton cloth. Now Shrink was back to its usual 20
    > minutes estimate.
    >
    > The moral of this story is that although you may think the disc is
    > clean, but the surface could have contaminants which radically effect
    > the NEC 3540's reading performance.
    >

    True of all optical devices.
     
    old jon, Aug 23, 2005
    #2
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  3. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:44:06 GMT, "old jon"
    <> wrote:

    >> The moral of this story is that although you may think the disc is
    >> clean, but the surface could have contaminants which radically effect
    >> the NEC 3540's reading performance.


    >True of all optical devices.


    Indeed, but I did not expect such a radical difference - 20 minutes vs
    1.5 hours.

    My son is the one with the habit of wiping DVDs on his t-shirt and yet
    the Sony/LiteOn did not slow down. That might be why it created so
    many coasters.

    The NEC 3540, on the other hand, apparently did an assessment of the
    conditions under which it was operating, and slowed down to the extent
    that Shring reported 1.5 hours to rip. That makes the 3540 a superior
    product because it rips to high quality and not to high speed.
     
    Bob, Aug 23, 2005
    #3
  4. Bob

    GraB Guest

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:15:39 GMT, (Bob) wrote:

    >On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:44:06 GMT, "old jon"
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>> The moral of this story is that although you may think the disc is
    >>> clean, but the surface could have contaminants which radically effect
    >>> the NEC 3540's reading performance.

    >
    >>True of all optical devices.

    >
    >Indeed, but I did not expect such a radical difference - 20 minutes vs
    >1.5 hours.
    >
    >My son is the one with the habit of wiping DVDs on his t-shirt and yet
    >the Sony/LiteOn did not slow down. That might be why it created so
    >many coasters.
    >
    >The NEC 3540, on the other hand, apparently did an assessment of the
    >conditions under which it was operating, and slowed down to the extent
    >that Shring reported 1.5 hours to rip. That makes the 3540 a superior
    >product because it rips to high quality and not to high speed.
    >

    My Lite-On 832S doesn't make coasters. The only coasters I have had
    have been due to an occasional bad disc (2) or on a couple of
    occasions where I thought it would be able to cram an extra 18megs
    onto a DVD, and another with 9megs extra. I have done that with CDs
    but it failed with DVDs. There have been no coasters due to ripping.
    One would need to look deeper at what you were doing.

    You have to match the media to your burner. That applies to any
    burner. I tried some Laser DVD-R 4x (SKC) blanks that had so many
    errors that they were way outside the acceptable limits. They played
    back OK though. But when I have used Emtec 4x DVD+R (DAXON AZ1) and
    Excel 4x DVD+R (OptodiscOR4) the error count was lower than the bought
    disc!

    One thing to look at is the firmware. Updating that can improve
    things.
     
    GraB, Aug 23, 2005
    #4
  5. Bob

    old jon Guest

    "Bob" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:44:06 GMT, "old jon"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>> The moral of this story is that although you may think the disc is
    >>> clean, but the surface could have contaminants which radically effect
    >>> the NEC 3540's reading performance.

    >
    >>True of all optical devices.

    >
    > Indeed, but I did not expect such a radical difference - 20 minutes vs
    > 1.5 hours.
    >
    > My son is the one with the habit of wiping DVDs on his t-shirt and yet
    > the Sony/LiteOn did not slow down. That might be why it created so
    > many coasters.
    >
    > The NEC 3540, on the other hand, apparently did an assessment of the
    > conditions under which it was operating, and slowed down to the extent
    > that Shring reported 1.5 hours to rip. That makes the 3540 a superior
    > product because it rips to high quality and not to high speed.
    >

    It`s a bit like soldering Bob. Cleanliness is next to godliness. My sons
    didn`t used to wash behind their ears either. <g>.
    bw..OJ
     
    old jon, Aug 23, 2005
    #5
  6. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:45:24 +1200, GraB <> wrote:

    >>My son is the one with the habit of wiping DVDs on his t-shirt and yet
    >>the Sony/LiteOn did not slow down. That might be why it created so
    >>many coasters.


    >>The NEC 3540, on the other hand, apparently did an assessment of the
    >>conditions under which it was operating, and slowed down to the extent
    >>that Shring reported 1.5 hours to rip. That makes the 3540 a superior
    >>product because it rips to high quality and not to high speed.


    >My Lite-On 832S doesn't make coasters.


    Ours was the Sony DW-D18A.

    That's the unit that Sony re-branded but I believe they used their own
    firmware which means that likely Sony screwed things up. Yet when I
    asked Sony to support their unit they claimed it was "OEM" and I would
    have to go to LiteOn for support. LiteOn did not want to support it
    either since it was a Sony re-brand so they told me to go to Sony.
    That's when I got rid of it. I will never again buy anything from Sony
    - they are a bunch of arrogant pricks.

    >There have been no coasters due to ripping.
    >One would need to look deeper at what you were doing.


    Nothing deep about it. I ripped old worn video discs with DVD Shrink
    and burned them with DVD Decrypter. I used various media at various
    speeds but the result was basically the same - coasters, about 1 out
    of 10. Because I used Verify and still got coasters, I blame the
    problem on corrupted rips. No matter what the condition of the video
    DVD was, Sony/LiteOn would rip it in the same amount of time. The NEC
    rip speed slows down rather dramatically depending on the condition of
    the surface. I can rip a new video DVD that is clean in the same time
    as the Sony/LiteOn. But when the surface is dirty or old & worn, the
    NEC rip speed slows down.

    I read somewhere = possibly on the official NEC optical products
    website in Germany - that the 3540 has quality detection capabilities
    that will adjust the angle of the laser and/or slow the read speed
    down to get a high quality rip.

    It would appear that Sony/LiteOn with Sony firmware does not have the
    capability of assessing read quality, which is why it ripped video
    DVDs at the same speed no matter the condition of the surface.

    >You have to match the media to your burner.


    I did all that. As I just said, I do not believe the problem is
    associated with writing - it is caused by reading a poor quality video
    DVD at too high a speed. The reason I believe this is because I used
    Verify with Decrypter and only once got a nad burn rejected.

    >One thing to look at is the firmware. Updating that can improve
    >things.


    Neither Sony nor LiteOn would support the unit. Sony did not even have
    a product number - I had someone on their live chat forum look it up
    and he/she/it said it is not a Sony product.

    LiteOn claimed that it was not their product even though I told them
    it was a rebranded LG 832S. They said they do not support Sony
    products.

    I suppose I could have flashed it with the latest LG 832S firmware,
    but that would have voided the warranty and I would not have been able
    to get an NEC 3540 in its place at no additional cost.

    Only a complete idiot would buy anything from a company like Sony that
    won't support its own products. I suspect the reason is because the
    unit was a piece of crap to begin with and they didn't want to service
    it because it can't be fixed. So they dropped it from their product
    line and that swept the problem under the rug.
     
    Bob, Aug 23, 2005
    #6
  7. Bob

    David Chien Guest

    >True of all optical devices.
    ditto.

    and never use a shirt!

    wash it with soap under running water, then dry pat with a paper towel
    or microfiber cleaning cloth to get the gunk off.

    Never rub/scrub with a shirt or towel, only a microfiber cleaning cloth
    - regular clothes/towels create micro-scratches that are pretty deep vs.
    a microfiber cloth (anything that touches the surface as you wipe will
    create scratches, but some things do it far less; DVDs are particularly
    sensitive to surface scratches).

    preferably, use smart handling in the first place to avoid this problem
    from the start - always have the disc in the case or drive, never set it
    down on a desk or other surface, only handle by hub and outer ring, and
    never touch the bottom. These steps alone can mean years of use before
    you ever have any need to clean the disc, if ever! (works for me)
     
    David Chien, Aug 23, 2005
    #7
  8. Bob

    David Chien Guest

    You may decide to get 'rid' of the dirty DVD problem in the first place
    - simply rip all of them to the PC, dump onto any external HD that's in
    a MPEG-1/2/4 'movie tank' box, and simply play back all of your DVDs
    from that movie tank hooked up to your TV w/o worry about scratching at
    all. Plus, you'll have hundreds of movies on hand w/o having to swap
    discs, etc. either.
     
    David Chien, Aug 23, 2005
    #8
  9. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:58:19 -0700, David Chien <>
    wrote:

    >microfiber cleaning cloth


    What is that?

    How come a paper towel won't abrade the surface. Paper has sand in it.
     
    Bob, Aug 23, 2005
    #9
  10. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:00:09 -0700, David Chien <>
    wrote:

    >You may decide to get 'rid' of the dirty DVD problem in the first place
    >- simply rip all of them to the PC


    It is the ripping process that is causing the problem.

    I have no problem with burning DVDs, as Decrypter's Verify tells me.
     
    Bob, Aug 23, 2005
    #10
  11. Bob

    GraB Guest

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:55:28 GMT, (Bob) wrote:

    >On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:45:24 +1200, GraB <> wrote:
    >
    >>>My son is the one with the habit of wiping DVDs on his t-shirt and yet
    >>>the Sony/LiteOn did not slow down. That might be why it created so
    >>>many coasters.

    >
    >>>The NEC 3540, on the other hand, apparently did an assessment of the
    >>>conditions under which it was operating, and slowed down to the extent
    >>>that Shring reported 1.5 hours to rip. That makes the 3540 a superior
    >>>product because it rips to high quality and not to high speed.

    >
    >>My Lite-On 832S doesn't make coasters.

    >
    >Ours was the Sony DW-D18A.
    >
    >That's the unit that Sony re-branded but I believe they used their own
    >firmware which means that likely Sony screwed things up. Yet when I
    >asked Sony to support their unit they claimed it was "OEM" and I would
    >have to go to LiteOn for support. LiteOn did not want to support it
    >either since it was a Sony re-brand so they told me to go to Sony.
    >That's when I got rid of it. I will never again buy anything from Sony
    >- they are a bunch of arrogant pricks.


    Neither Lite-On or Sony could complain if you installed a third party
    firmware or crossflashed it to another model, given their attitude. I
    have flashed mine with CG5G firmware from CodeBrothers, official
    Lite-On firmware but tweaked for quality burns (it was originally an
    812S). This firmware is later than the one for the 812S.

    >>There have been no coasters due to ripping.
    >>One would need to look deeper at what you were doing.

    >
    >Nothing deep about it. I ripped old worn video discs with DVD Shrink
    >and burned them with DVD Decrypter. I used various media at various
    >speeds but the result was basically the same - coasters, about 1 out
    >of 10. Because I used Verify and still got coasters, I blame the
    >problem on corrupted rips. No matter what the condition of the video
    >DVD was, Sony/LiteOn would rip it in the same amount of time. The NEC
    >rip speed slows down rather dramatically depending on the condition of
    >the surface. I can rip a new video DVD that is clean in the same time
    >as the Sony/LiteOn. But when the surface is dirty or old & worn, the
    >NEC rip speed slows down.


    I find when ripping with DVD Decrypter (more normal way to do it - try
    it) it slows down if disc is dodgy or tells me if it can't read
    something, which has happened on a few scratched discs. You can set
    both hardware and software read retrys.

    >I read somewhere = possibly on the official NEC optical products
    >website in Germany - that the 3540 has quality detection capabilities
    >that will adjust the angle of the laser and/or slow the read speed
    >down to get a high quality rip.
    >
    >It would appear that Sony/LiteOn with Sony firmware does not have the
    >capability of assessing read quality, which is why it ripped video
    >DVDs at the same speed no matter the condition of the surface.
    >
    >>You have to match the media to your burner.

    >
    >I did all that. As I just said, I do not believe the problem is
    >associated with writing - it is caused by reading a poor quality video
    >DVD at too high a speed. The reason I believe this is because I used
    >Verify with Decrypter and only once got a nad burn rejected.


    Could you have a dirty lens or perhaps it has gone out of alignment?
     
    GraB, Aug 24, 2005
    #11
  12. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:28:06 +1200, GraB <> wrote:

    >Neither Lite-On or Sony could complain if you installed a third party
    >firmware or crossflashed it to another model, given their attitude.


    I just got rid of it. Fortunately my vendor was understanding. I
    traded it for the NEC 3540.

    >I have flashed mine with CG5G firmware from CodeBrothers, official
    >Lite-On firmware


    What is the link for that site? I tried Google but only got a dead
    website.

    >I find when ripping with DVD Decrypter (more normal way to do it - try
    >it)


    But how do you compress the ISO down to a size that will fit a 4.7 GB
    DVD -R?

    >it slows down if disc is dodgy or tells me if it can't read
    >something, which has happened on a few scratched discs. You can set
    >both hardware and software read retrys.


    If it were Decrypter doing the slowing down, then it would have been
    the same for the Sony/LiteOn.

    >Could you have a dirty lens or perhaps it has gone out of alignment?


    The unit is brand new and shows no signs of being defective.

    I ripped a new video DVD with Decrypter and it took 16.5 minutes. That
    works out to about 5X. The CPU was barely loaded so there was not much
    if any time being wasted on overhead. I kept statistics as it was
    progressing:

    After 1 minute: 3.3X (~4,500 KB/sec)

    Maximum: 6.8 (~9,400 KB/sec)

    If Riplock is in effect for video DVDs and it limits read speed to 4X,
    then how come I got 6.8X?

    Something does not add up. Could it be that the 3540 does not have
    Riplock after all?
     
    Bob, Aug 24, 2005
    #12
  13. Bob

    David Chien Guest

    Pat with a paper towel, not wipe! That's the difference. If you pat
    dry any optical disc, it won't cause scratches that would normally occur
    if you wipe with a paper towel, and thus, you won't hurt the disc much
    at all.

    Microfiber cleaning cloth - specially super-fine fibers, synthetic,
    woven to allow the cloth to pickup dust and debris, while cleaning away
    grease, fingerprints, etc. First developed years ago by Toray in Japan,
    a specialist in fiber weaving, and introduced to most of the world first
    as eyeglass cleaning clothes. Naturally, other companies make them now,
    including 3M's line of Scotchbrite cleaning clothes for electronics, etc.
     
    David Chien, Aug 24, 2005
    #13
  14. Bob

    Geezah Guest

    Bob wrote:

    >
    > What is the link for that site? I tried Google but only got a dead
    > website.


    Home

    http://codeguys.rpc1.org/

    Code

    http://codeguys.rpc1.org/firmwares.html

    Did it, woiks fine, haven't tested for DL though - other folk say it works.

    >
    >
    >>I find when ripping with DVD Decrypter (more normal way to do it - try
    >>it)

    >
    >
    > But how do you compress the ISO down to a size that will fit a 4.7 GB
    > DVD -R?


    DVD Shrink, love it! I'm doing *some* of the family videos, which are
    of extremely poor quality from being copied too much (one argument for
    DVD over VHS!). I Author them over sized in DVDLab Pro - write DVD
    Folders to HD, 5 - 8 gbs worth, then shrink 'em!

    http://www.mrbass.org/dvdshrink/


    Good forum for this sort of thing

    http://club.cdfreaks.com/index.php

    Luck

    Geezah
     
    Geezah, Aug 24, 2005
    #14
  15. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:02:30 -0400, Geezah <>
    wrote:

    > http://codeguys.rpc1.org/firmwares.html
    > Did it, woiks fine, haven't tested for DL though - other folk say it works.


    I was finally able to access that page.

    >> But how do you compress the ISO down to a size that will fit a 4.7 GB
    >> DVD -R?


    > DVD Shrink, love it!


    That's what I use.

    > http://club.cdfreaks.com/index.php


    I am a participant.
     
    Bob, Aug 25, 2005
    #15
  16. Bob

    GraB Guest

    On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:51:19 GMT, (Bob) wrote:

    >On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:28:06 +1200, GraB <> wrote:
    >
    >>Neither Lite-On or Sony could complain if you installed a third party
    >>firmware or crossflashed it to another model, given their attitude.

    >
    >I just got rid of it. Fortunately my vendor was understanding. I
    >traded it for the NEC 3540.
    >
    >>I have flashed mine with CG5G firmware from CodeBrothers, official
    >>Lite-On firmware

    >
    >What is the link for that site? I tried Google but only got a dead
    >website.
    >
    >>I find when ripping with DVD Decrypter (more normal way to do it - try
    >>it)

    >
    >But how do you compress the ISO down to a size that will fit a 4.7 GB
    >DVD -R?
    >
    >>it slows down if disc is dodgy or tells me if it can't read
    >>something, which has happened on a few scratched discs. You can set
    >>both hardware and software read retrys.

    >
    >If it were Decrypter doing the slowing down, then it would have been
    >the same for the Sony/LiteOn.
    >
    >>Could you have a dirty lens or perhaps it has gone out of alignment?

    >
    >The unit is brand new and shows no signs of being defective.
    >
    >I ripped a new video DVD with Decrypter and it took 16.5 minutes. That
    >works out to about 5X. The CPU was barely loaded so there was not much
    >if any time being wasted on overhead. I kept statistics as it was
    >progressing:
    >
    >After 1 minute: 3.3X (~4,500 KB/sec)
    >
    >Maximum: 6.8 (~9,400 KB/sec)
    >
    >If Riplock is in effect for video DVDs and it limits read speed to 4X,
    >then how come I got 6.8X?
    >
    >Something does not add up. Could it be that the 3540 does not have
    >Riplock after all?
    >

    Soyyr, it is CodeGuys, not CodeBrothers:
    http://codeguys.rpc1.org/oc.html

    There are various methods to rip in DVD Decrypter. I normally use
    File mode, rip the whole DVD then use DVD Shrink to shrink it down.
    If you want only the main movie then you would have to go into
    Re-Author mode and select just what you want.

    I have never come across RipLock.
     
    GraB, Aug 25, 2005
    #16
  17. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:20:16 +1200, GraB <> wrote:

    >There are various methods to rip in DVD Decrypter. I normally use
    >File mode, rip the whole DVD then use DVD Shrink to shrink it down.


    That takes a lot more time than just ripping and compressing in one
    step in DVD Shrink.
     
    Bob, Aug 25, 2005
    #17
  18. Bob

    Jay Stewart Guest

    Bob" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:58:19 -0700, David Chien <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>microfiber cleaning cloth

    >
    > What is that?
    >
    > How come a paper towel won't abrade the surface. Paper has sand in it.
    >



    I also understand that gobbing on the disc isn't good idea. Is that true?
     
    Jay Stewart, Aug 26, 2005
    #18
  19. Bob

    Camper Guest

    "Jay Stewart" <> wrote in message
    news:TBtPe.310650$s54.163570@pd7tw2no...
    >
    > Bob" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:58:19 -0700, David Chien <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>>microfiber cleaning cloth

    >>
    >> What is that?
    >>
    >> How come a paper towel won't abrade the surface. Paper has sand in it.
    >>

    >
    >
    > I also understand that gobbing on the disc isn't good idea. Is that true?

    Not after eating peanuts.
     
    Camper, Aug 27, 2005
    #19
  20. Bob

    Al Klein Guest

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:10:46 GMT, (Bob) said in
    rec.video.dvd.tech:

    >On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:58:19 -0700, David Chien <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>microfiber cleaning cloth

    >
    >What is that?
    >
    >How come a paper towel won't abrade the surface. Paper has sand in it.


    *Patting* with a paper towel won't - rubbing will.
     
    Al Klein, Aug 29, 2005
    #20
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