surely not

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Peter, May 26, 2004.

  1. Peter

    AD. Guest

    On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:54:10 +1200, Cheetah wrote:

    > Some of the FSF people get carried away with the "All source must be free"
    > message. I believe that its up to the owner/developer. If you want to
    > release your source for the benefit of others you should be free to.


    Agreed. It reminds me of a Tim O'Reilly editorial where he talked about
    adding a 'Freedom' to RMS list of 'Software Freedoms'. Tim proposed a
    'Freedom Zero' in that a developer has the freedom to choose the license
    for their own work. RMS naturally disagreed :)

    I think this is why most people react badly to MS proclamations about the
    'badness' of the GPL. They see it as very self serving - why should MS
    care what license people choose? Surely developers are grown up enough to
    make their own decisions?

    Likewise a lot of people also react badly to RMS and others going on about
    the 'badness' of non-GPL licenses.

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., May 31, 2004
    #41
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  2. Peter

    Cheetah Guest

    AD. wrote:

    > Agreed. It reminds me of a Tim O'Reilly editorial where he talked about
    > adding a 'Freedom' to RMS list of 'Software Freedoms'. Tim proposed a
    > 'Freedom Zero' in that a developer has the freedom to choose the license
    > for their own work. RMS naturally disagreed :)


    Software is not "free" - even open source. It takes time and effort to
    create it. The term "free" generally means without value. "Free Software"
    sounds like "Freeware" - its a confusing term. RMS makes out that open
    source is commercial - but the truth is that it encapsulates true freedom
    of source code - literally the source is open to everyone. It is a better
    description, not a difference in philosophy.

    > I think this is why most people react badly to MS proclamations about the
    > 'badness' of the GPL. They see it as very self serving - why should MS
    > care what license people choose? Surely developers are grown up enough to
    > make their own decisions?


    The official line from MS is that they won't release software as GPL because
    its viral, and the business model is unproven. They are in fact mostly
    correct. The GPL does insist that if you make use of GPL code that you
    release any derriviative work it must retain the original freedoms. Thats
    quite deliberate, and protection for GPL developers that work they have
    done won't be stolen by commercial interests. However, nobody is forced to
    use GPL code.

    However, in my professional work I often must decide not to use GPL code
    because of the license. I'm not complaining about that - its the authors
    right to release under whatever license they wish. However, in my opinion
    some companies are taking aim at their foot - MySQL AB for example.

    > Likewise a lot of people also react badly to RMS and others going on about
    > the 'badness' of non-GPL licenses.


    I respect what RMS has given the community, however I don't know too many
    people who would agree with him 100%. I certainly don't believe that all
    software should be open source. There is a place for closed source and open
    source, and in time the ecosystem will work itself out.

    I suppose the thing that makes me angry about RMS is his insistance on
    defining the open source community as somehow less moral - less committed
    to the principle of freedom - than the FSF. This is ironic given that
    projects such as The Herd have failed in part because of the closed
    development approach.

    Open source is also about a new way of developing software - not just a way
    of licensing it. That is the real power of OSS.
     
    Cheetah, May 31, 2004
    #42
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  3. Peter

    AD. Guest

    On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:25:43 +1200, Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:

    > AD. wrote:
    >> And how does expressing hostility towards the use of MS applications
    >> automatically equate to finding commercial software 'morally repugnant'?

    >
    > Depending on how the reply is made, I could see how one may form that
    > opinion.
    >
    > As in say "That morally corrupt software company is ruining it for the
    > rest of the world, I just wish that M$ and Billy Boy would shrivel up and
    > die".


    Even so, how does supposedly claiming that MS is morally corrupt
    automatically equate to believing commercial software development itself
    is morally corrupt?

    :)

    Patricks prejudices often cause him to jump to incorrect and exaggerated
    conclusions. He is decrying a contradiction that doesn't exist. Even the
    fairly loud and lopsided views of Divine and Steve etc aren't claiming
    that commercial software itself is evil. Hell, some of them even pay for
    commercial distros.

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., May 31, 2004
    #43
  4. AD. wrote:
    >>>And how does expressing hostility towards the use of MS applications
    >>>automatically equate to finding commercial software 'morally repugnant'?


    >>Depending on how the reply is made, I could see how one may form that
    >>opinion.
    >>As in say "That morally corrupt software company is ruining it for the
    >>rest of the world, I just wish that M$ and Billy Boy would shrivel up and
    >>die".


    > Even so, how does supposedly claiming that MS is morally corrupt
    > automatically equate to believing commercial software development itself
    > is morally corrupt?
    > :)


    Guilty by association.

    > Patricks prejudices often cause him to jump to incorrect and exaggerated
    > conclusions. He is decrying a contradiction that doesn't exist. Even the
    > fairly loud and lopsided views of Divine and Steve etc aren't claiming
    > that commercial software itself is evil. Hell, some of them even pay for
    > commercial distros.


    Indeed.

    --
    Dave Hall
    http://www.dave.net.nz
    http://www.dunedinwireless.co.nz
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, May 31, 2004
    #44
  5. Peter

    Gavin Tunney Guest

    On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:17:13 +1200, Cheetah
    <> wrote:

    <snip>
    >I know people like to paint us as puritans and zealots, but the world isn't
    >that black and white.
    >


    'People' don't really paint you as such Peter. You just get puritans
    and zealots hanging off your coat-tails.....and unfortunately a few of
    them keep posting here.

    Gavin
     
    Gavin Tunney, May 31, 2004
    #45
  6. Peter

    AD. Guest

    On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:49:20 +1200, Cheetah wrote:

    >> I think this is why most people react badly to MS proclamations about
    >> the 'badness' of the GPL. They see it as very self serving - why should
    >> MS care what license people choose? Surely developers are grown up
    >> enough to make their own decisions?

    >
    > The official line from MS is that they won't release software as GPL
    > because its viral, and the business model is unproven. They are in fact
    > mostly correct.


    I wasn't so much talking about their refusal to release or use GPL
    software - that is entirely understandable and their decision to make.

    It's more the trying to influence other groups (eg governments) to avoid
    using GPL code or avoid sponsoring GPL projects that annoys me (and others).

    But I gather they mostly gave up on that strategy because it wasn't
    working, and tried to focus on costs and value. Then again the anti GPL
    statements seem to be creeping back in lately.

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., May 31, 2004
    #46
  7. Peter

    Brendan Guest

    On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 09:49:20 +1200, Cheetah wrote:

    > Open source is also about a new way of developing software - not just a way
    > of licensing it. That is the real power of OSS.


    I think Open Source is about an old idea - the open sharing of information.
    We can see it at work all through history, including those times where IP
    laws were being ignored by the USA, China, etc.

    Patents, Copyright, all of this is supposed to be a compromise between
    society and the individual, a reward for works provided, for a short period
    of time.

    Nowadays it is no more than a tool to be used to exclude to retard
    competition so that monopolies can cement their positions.

    I agree with the FSF - we cannot afford the luxury of hoarding knowledge
    (and therefore power) in a time when we face the problems we do.


    --

    .... Brendan

    "Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right." - Mohandas K. Ghandi

    Note: All comments are copyright 1/06/2004 1:04:17 p.m., and are opinion only where not otherwise stated, and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
     
    Brendan, Jun 1, 2004
    #47
  8. Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jun 1, 2004
    #48
  9. In article <P_zuc.4817$>,
    "brundlefly" <> wrote:
    >
    > Apple OSX uses quite a lot of component software from the Free Software
    > Foundations Gnu project.


    and BSD, and elsewhere,
    and refers its users to other sources of commercial and non-commercial
    open source s/w

    BTW has the Konqueror team used or acknowledged Apple in any way for
    their tidy up of that code?
     
    J.Random Luser, Jun 1, 2004
    #49
  10. In article <>,
    says...
    > On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:43:12 +1200, Patrick Dunford wrote:
    >
    > >> I know people like to paint us as puritans and zealots, but the world
    > >> isn't that black and white.

    > >
    > > Sometimes it is, and in the Linux local user group I encountered a
    > > considerable degree of hostility to the idea that some people would find
    > > Microsoft applications more suited to their needs.

    >
    > No shit - I bet some users in the Apple users group or the OS/2 group
    > probably also would've expressed some hostility towards suggesting
    > Windows solutions (or Linux ones for that matter).


    Bollocks, Linux is not only a desktop, it is a server and with Samba you
    are effectively working with Windows clients, that is a perfectly
    legitimate setup with Linux as a server connecting to Windows desktops.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Jun 1, 2004
    #50
  11. Peter

    Cheetah Guest

    AD. wrote:

    > I wasn't so much talking about their refusal to release or use GPL
    > software - that is entirely understandable and their decision to make.
    >
    > It's more the trying to influence other groups (eg governments) to avoid
    > using GPL code or avoid sponsoring GPL projects that annoys me (and
    > others).


    Don't sweat it. Brett and co are paid to do this - and I can say that I have
    never caught the MSNZ crowd outright lying. I'm not saying I agree with
    their position - they tend to confuse the use of GPL software with
    developing on top of it - but they have not been openly dishonest as say
    SCO have been.

    > But I gather they mostly gave up on that strategy because it wasn't
    > working, and tried to focus on costs and value. Then again the anti GPL
    > statements seem to be creeping back in lately.


    MS has "got real". They appear to have realised that when people don't trust
    you everything you say is suspect, lie or not. Can you say "trusted
    computing" without laughing? Therefore its pointless for MS to go on
    tirades against OSS while we held the moral high ground. Consequently we
    have seen MS looking to re-establish peoples trust, trying to be less cut
    throat, and being a little more clever about what they are doing.

    Whether this is a real change in the culture of MS or simply a veneer will
    come out in the wash I suspect. I hope that MS has to some extent changed
    its ways, however I won't be holding my breath waiting for the evidence. In
    fact it looks like MS are ramping up a legal attack via patents.

    Thats interesting because Brett is of the opinion that we should compete on
    the quality of our products. I agree and hope MS will not try and use
    patents to bludgeon the open source community. I would not like to see the
    day when developers fear to write software because it might land them in
    court. Not only would it chill OSS development, but would also kill small
    New Zealand software companies who couldn't afford patent portfolios and
    legal departments to examine products for infringements.
     
    Cheetah, Jun 1, 2004
    #51
  12. Cheetah wrote:
    > Can you say "trusted
    > computing" without laughing?


    I reckon that the idea behind "trusted computing" is in itself, a good
    one, I don't however like the way it has been done(only working on what
    I have read).

    --
    Dave Hall
    http://www.dave.net.nz
    http://www.dunedinwireless.co.nz
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jun 1, 2004
    #52
  13. Peter

    AD. Guest

    On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 15:48:46 +1200, Patrick Dunford wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > says...
    >> On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:43:12 +1200, Patrick Dunford wrote:
    >>
    >> >> I know people like to paint us as puritans and zealots, but the world
    >> >> isn't that black and white.
    >> >
    >> > Sometimes it is, and in the Linux local user group I encountered a
    >> > considerable degree of hostility to the idea that some people would
    >> > find Microsoft applications more suited to their needs.

    >>
    >> No shit - I bet some users in the Apple users group or the OS/2 group
    >> probably also would've expressed some hostility towards suggesting
    >> Windows solutions (or Linux ones for that matter).

    >
    > Bollocks, Linux is not only a desktop, it is a server and with Samba you
    > are effectively working with Windows clients, that is a perfectly
    > legitimate setup with Linux as a server connecting to Windows desktops.


    Huh? So what? Who said anything about that stuff? Of course it's a
    legitimate setup!

    My point was that the zealous users of any group are going to express
    hostility towards suggestions of other solutions. It's just the nature of
    one-eyed zealots.

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Jun 1, 2004
    #53
  14. Peter

    AD. Guest

    On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:31:00 +1200, Cheetah wrote:

    > Thats interesting because Brett is of the opinion that we should compete
    > on the quality of our products. I agree and hope MS will not try and use
    > patents to bludgeon the open source community. I would not like to see
    > the day when developers fear to write software because it might land
    > them in court. Not only would it chill OSS development, but would also
    > kill small New Zealand software companies who couldn't afford patent
    > portfolios and legal departments to examine products for infringements.


    Agreed 100%. I also have a great deal of respect for MS NZ. I do have MS
    certs and have worked for MS Partners, been to plenty of MS hosted
    events over the years and the MS NZ staff have always (mostly) impressed
    me. Bretts continued participation in here is a very good thing IMO.

    I can't say the same about the rest of MS globally though.

    The open source community is now where my head is at, and I find it a much
    more rewarding place to be. And in the past I hoped that it would be able
    to reach it's potential without being 'artificially' constrained.

    And I'm now fairly certain that open source already has or is about to
    break free of those constraints and be judged purely on its merits.

    Anyway, enough rambling.

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Jun 1, 2004
    #54
  15. Peter

    Brendan Guest

    On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:14:15 +1200, Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:

    > Brendan wrote:
    >> I agree with the FSF - we cannot afford the luxury of hoarding knowledge
    >> (and therefore power) in a time when we face the problems we do.

    >
    > errr, what problems?


    Dwindling sources of easily obtainable energy.

    Increasingly resistant bacteria.

    Increasing incidence of genetic or systemic diseases (auto-immune, cancer,
    diabetes, mental illnesses, etc).

    Dwindling resources.

    Pollution.

    Beurocracy (which includes corporate).

    etc etc.

    None of it is solved by hoarding and making knowledge scarce.

    --

    .... Brendan

    "One form to rule them all, one form to find them, one form to bring them all and in the darkness rewrite the hell out of them." -- DEC, sendmail.cf

    Note: All comments are copyright 3/06/2004 2:57:04 a.m., and are opinion only where not otherwise stated, and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
     
    Brendan, Jun 2, 2004
    #55
  16. Peter

    brundlefly Guest

    "Brendan" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Beurocracy (which includes corporate).
    >
    > etc etc.
    >
    > None of it is solved by hoarding and making knowledge scarce.
    >


    bureaucracy from the word bureau, french for office
    (Not a spelling flame, sharing knowledge for increased understanding)
     
    brundlefly, Jun 2, 2004
    #56
  17. Brendan wrote:
    >>>I agree with the FSF - we cannot afford the luxury of hoarding knowledge
    >>>(and therefore power) in a time when we face the problems we do.


    >>errr, what problems?


    *judo-snip*

    > None of it is solved by hoarding and making knowledge scarce.


    Better get out my tinfoil hat and go to the bomb shelter then I guess...

    --
    Dave Hall
    http://www.dave.net.nz
    http://www.dunedinwireless.co.nz
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jun 2, 2004
    #57
  18. Peter

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    > Brendan wrote:
    >>>> I agree with the FSF - we cannot afford the luxury of hoarding
    >>>> knowledge (and therefore power) in a time when we face the
    >>>> problems we do.

    >
    >>> errr, what problems?

    >
    > *judo-snip*
    >
    >> None of it is solved by hoarding and making knowledge scarce.

    >
    > Better get out my tinfoil hat and go to the bomb shelter then I
    > guess...


    I thought you *always* wore your tinfoil hat Dave?
    --
    ~misfit~


    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    Version: 6.0.692 / Virus Database: 453 - Release Date: 28/05/2004
     
    ~misfit~, Jun 3, 2004
    #58
  19. Peter

    Steven H Guest

    On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 13:41:21 +1200, ~misfit~ wrote:

    >> Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:


    >> Better get out my tinfoil hat and go to the bomb shelter then I
    >> guess...

    >
    > I thought you *always* wore your tinfoil hat Dave?


    not quite, you can take them off when your in the shower as the one world
    goverments mind readers have trouble reading your thaughts when your in the
    shower - dunno why, it just works like that.

    --
    -------------------------------------------
    Steven H, 3rd Year B.I.T. Otago Polytechnic
     
    Steven H, Jun 3, 2004
    #59
  20. Peter

    Brendan Guest

    On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 08:50:32 +1200, Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:

    >> None of it is solved by hoarding and making knowledge scarce.

    >
    > Better get out my tinfoil hat and go to the bomb shelter then I guess...


    Yeah, whatever. You asked and I told you. Most of what people think are
    problems - 'diminishing moral responsibility', 'lack of respect to elders',
    'pace of progress being too fast', are not real problems.

    THOSE are the sort of things stupid people with small brains think of as
    problems. All they are - at best - is evidence of an evolving culture. A
    living culture; the only cultures that do not change are dead ones.

    --

    .... Brendan

    "One grows tired of jelly babies, Castellan. One grows tired of almost everything, Castellan, except power." -- The Doctor

    Note: All comments are copyright 3/06/2004 2:44:04 p.m., and are opinion only where not otherwise stated, and always "to the best of my recollection". www.computerman.orcon.net.nz.
     
    Brendan, Jun 3, 2004
    #60
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