Steve's Digicam's classifies the SD-9 and SD-10 as 10.2MP

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by George Preddy, Oct 27, 2003.

  1. Message finally received. The first domino has fallen.

    "The improved 10.2 megapixel (approx. 3.43 million each red + green + blue
    pixels) image sensor doubles the sensitivity and maximum exposure times and
    offers increased dynamic range over its predecessor. "
    http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/sigma_sd10.html

    Don't know where the ".2" comes from with 10.29M RGB sensors, but the SD-9
    and 10 are finally properly classified.

    Good for Steve's Digicams.
     
    George Preddy, Oct 27, 2003
    #1
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  2. "George Preddy" <> wrote in
    news:bnj2j4$rsv$:

    > Message finally received. The first domino has fallen.
    >
    > "The improved 10.2 megapixel (approx. 3.43 million each red + green +
    > blue pixels) image sensor doubles the sensitivity and maximum exposure
    > times and offers increased dynamic range over its predecessor. "
    > http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/sigma_sd10.html
    >
    > Don't know where the ".2" comes from with 10.29M RGB sensors, but the
    > SD-9 and 10 are finally properly classified.
    >
    > Good for Steve's Digicams.


    Looks like a boo-boo. According to the review, the SD10 can produce
    images up to 2268x1512 pixels; when I do the math, that's a wee bit short
    of 10,200,000.

    --
    Albert Nurick www.TheDeliciousLife.com
    A guide to the good life
    www.nurick.com in Houston, Texas
     
    Albert Nurick, Oct 27, 2003
    #2
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  3. George Preddy

    Lionel Guest

    "George Preddy" <> wrote in message news:<bnj2j4$rsv$>...
    > Message finally received. The first domino has fallen.
    >
    > "The improved 10.2 megapixel (approx. 3.43 million each red + green + blue
    > pixels) image sensor doubles the sensitivity and maximum exposure times and
    > offers increased dynamic range over its predecessor. "
    > http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/sigma_sd10.html
    >
    > Don't know where the ".2" comes from with 10.29M RGB sensors, but the SD-9
    > and 10 are finally properly classified.
    >
    > Good for Steve's Digicams.


    The information you have quoted is highly innacurate
     
    Lionel, Oct 27, 2003
    #3
  4. George Preddy

    Mark Herring Guest

    On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:02:02 +0900, "George Preddy"
    <> wrote:

    >Message finally received. The first domino has fallen.
    >
    >"The improved 10.2 megapixel (approx. 3.43 million each red + green + blue
    >pixels) image sensor doubles the sensitivity and maximum exposure times and
    >offers increased dynamic range over its predecessor. "
    >http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/sigma_sd10.html
    >
    >Don't know where the ".2" comes from with 10.29M RGB sensors, but the SD-9
    >and 10 are finally properly classified.
    >
    >Good for Steve's Digicams.
    >

    Sorry, George.....The Sigma/Foveon cameras are NOT10Mp according to
    the prevailing standard. I can back this up with all the theory and
    data that anyone cares to listen to.

    In common practice, xx Mpixels refers to the number of independent
    spatial samples that can be used to create spatial resolution---ie
    detail. Sigma/Foveon simply are not following this standard.

    We desperately need some kind of official standards (like maybe ISO
    film speed). Until we get them, we owe it to ourselves to follow the
    de-facto standards---as maybe 80-90 of the vendors are doing.

    Shame on Steve's or dpreview or anyone else for perpetuating and
    credibleizing (there's a good one!!) the claims of a small minority
    trying to find their niche.

    -mark
    *****************************************
    digital photos, more and better computers,
    and never enough time to do the projects.
    Private e-mail: Just say no to No
     
    Mark Herring, Oct 28, 2003
    #4
  5. George Preddy

    Leicaddict Guest

    (Lionel) wrote in message news:<>...
    > "George Preddy" <> wrote in message news:<bnj2j4$rsv$>...
    > > Message finally received. The first domino has fallen.
    > >
    > > "The improved 10.2 megapixel (approx. 3.43 million each red + green + blue
    > > pixels) image sensor doubles the sensitivity and maximum exposure times and
    > > offers increased dynamic range over its predecessor. "
    > > http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/sigma_sd10.html
    > >
    > > Don't know where the ".2" comes from with 10.29M RGB sensors, but the SD-9
    > > and 10 are finally properly classified.
    > >
    > > Good for Steve's Digicams.

    >
    > The information you have quoted is highly innacurate


    Lionel, shove it up your ass. If you are going to accuse someone of
    being wrong, then back up your statement with a counter-fact.
     
    Leicaddict, Oct 28, 2003
    #5
  6. George Preddy

    Lionel Guest

    Word has it that on 28 Oct 2003 02:18:57 -0800, in this august forum,
    (Leicaddict) said:

    > (Lionel) wrote in message news:<>...
    >> "George Preddy" <> wrote in message news:<bnj2j4$rsv$>...
    >> > Message finally received. The first domino has fallen.
    >> >
    >> > "The improved 10.2 megapixel (approx. 3.43 million each red + green + blue
    >> > pixels) image sensor doubles the sensitivity and maximum exposure times and
    >> > offers increased dynamic range over its predecessor. "
    >> > http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/sigma_sd10.html
    >> >
    >> > Don't know where the ".2" comes from with 10.29M RGB sensors, but the SD-9
    >> > and 10 are finally properly classified.
    >> >
    >> > Good for Steve's Digicams.

    >>
    >> The information you have quoted is highly innacurate

    >
    >Lionel, shove it up your ass. If you are going to accuse someone of
    >being wrong, then back up your statement with a counter-fact.


    Troll, are you actually stupid enough to think that your lame
    'forgeries' of us will trick Leicaaddict & I into fighting? If so,
    you're even dumber than I've been thinking, (if that's possible).

    Kisses,

    Lionel.

    --
    W
    . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
    \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
    ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Lionel, Oct 28, 2003
    #6
  7. "Lionel" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Word has it that on 28 Oct 2003 02:18:57 -0800, in this august forum,
    > (Leicaddict) said:
    >
    > > (Lionel) wrote in message

    news:<>...
    > >> "George Preddy" <> wrote in message

    news:<bnj2j4$rsv$>...
    > >> > Message finally received. The first domino has fallen.
    > >> >
    > >> > "The improved 10.2 megapixel (approx. 3.43 million each red + green +

    blue
    > >> > pixels) image sensor doubles the sensitivity and maximum exposure

    times and
    > >> > offers increased dynamic range over its predecessor. "
    > >> > http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/sigma_sd10.html
    > >> >
    > >> > Don't know where the ".2" comes from with 10.29M RGB sensors, but the

    SD-9
    > >> > and 10 are finally properly classified.
    > >> >
    > >> > Good for Steve's Digicams.
    > >>
    > >> The information you have quoted is highly innacurate

    > >
    > >Lionel, shove it up your ass. If you are going to accuse someone of
    > >being wrong, then back up your statement with a counter-fact.

    >
    > Troll,


    Not a good first attempt.
     
    George Preddy, Oct 28, 2003
    #7
  8. Here is how it works (was Re: Steve's Digicam's classifies the SD-9 and SD-10 as 10.2MP)

    "Mark Herring" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:02:02 +0900, "George Preddy"
    > <> wrote:
    > In common practice, xx Mpixels refers to the number of independent
    > spatial samples that can be used to create spatial resolution---ie
    > detail. Sigma/Foveon simply are not following this standard.


    The SD-9/10 takes 10.3M indepentent spatial samples, so sure they are.
    Here's the chart again...
    http://www.pbase.com/image/22273598

    > We desperately need some kind of official standards (like maybe ISO
    > film speed). Until we get them, we owe it to ourselves to follow the
    > de-facto standards---as maybe 80-90 of the vendors are doing.
    >
    > Shame on Steve's or dpreview or anyone else for perpetuating and
    > credibleizing (there's a good one!!) the claims of a small minority
    > trying to find their niche.


    Here is how it works, for real. To sense 1 full color Bayer uses a 4 sensor
    set...
    -----
    RG
    GB
    -----
    It outputs 4 interpolated color pixels which all center on that 1 sensed
    color. Any color variation between those 4 pixels is artifactual (a much
    better word than credibleizing). The extra G is wasted, because in a 2x2
    grid one of the 3 primaries has to be wasted. So it uses the extra G to
    tune overall luminance a little, then throws the extra-green info away.

    Foveon uses 3 sensor to sense 1 full color...
    -----
    X
    -----
    Where X is a complete RGB set aligned in depth. It outputs 1 pixel with 1
    non-interpolated color (with a known, not sampled, luminance value).

    The end result is the Bayer scales all of its images up by 4X, Foevon
    doesn't. Simple scaling up (interpolating) doesn't change optical
    resolution one bit. So theoretically, the the SD-9 is exactly the same,
    optically, as a 13.7MP Bayer, which not coincidentally is the SD-9's
    (optional) interpolated MP output.

    But... only when color is sensed. For B&W targets the Bayer performs much
    better, color interpolation is closer to 100% effective when no color is
    involved.
     
    George Preddy, Oct 28, 2003
    #8
  9. George Preddy

    Lionel Guest

    Re: Here is how it works (was Re: Steve's Digicam's classifies the SD-9 and SD-10 as 10.2MP)

    Word has it that on Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:30:48 +0900, in this august
    forum, "George Preddy" <> said:

    >
    >"Mark Herring" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:02:02 +0900, "George Preddy"
    >> <> wrote:
    >> In common practice, xx Mpixels refers to the number of independent
    >> spatial samples that can be used to create spatial resolution---ie
    >> detail. Sigma/Foveon simply are not following this standard.

    >
    >The SD-9/10 takes 10.3M indepentent spatial samples, so sure they are.


    Sorry, but this is utter bullshit. You clearly don't understand the
    meaning of the phrase: "independant spatial samples". Three photosites
    stacked on top of each other only counts as a single spatial sample.

    --
    W
    . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
    \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
    ---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Lionel, Oct 28, 2003
    #9
  10. Re: Here is how it works (was Re: Steve's Digicam's classifies the SD-9 and SD-10 as 10.2MP)

    "George Preddy" <> wrote in
    news:bnmo9i$6s2$:


    > Here is how it works, for real. To sense 1 full color Bayer uses
    > a 4 sensor set...
    > -----
    > RG
    > GB
    > -----
    > It outputs 4 interpolated color pixels which all center on that 1
    > sensed color. Any color variation between those 4 pixels is
    > artifactual (a much better word than credibleizing). The extra G
    > is wasted, because in a 2x2 grid one of the 3 primaries has to be
    > wasted. So it uses the extra G to tune overall luminance a
    > little, then throws the extra-green info away.
    >

    I would assume that any of the demosaicing algorithms used in current
    cameras are far more sophisticated than your simple model...all you
    have to do is read a few of the papers, and there are hundreds to see
    the options. None of the ones I have read discard any G data and use
    moving sampling structures of (many) adjacent pixels with weighting
    schemes. No one knows what any of the major manufacturers have
    incorporated in their firmware but your illustration is clearly bogus.
     
    Mike Latondresse, Oct 28, 2003
    #10
  11. Re: Here is how it works (was Re: Steve's Digicam's classifies the SD-9 and SD-10 as 10.2MP)

    "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    news:bnmo9i$6s2$...
    SNIP
    > Here is how it works, for real. To sense 1 full color Bayer uses a 4

    sensor

    Wrong!

    Depending on the actual algorithm, *each* pixel uses its 8 independent
    surrounding pixels (or more) to reconstruct the RGB triplet.

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Oct 28, 2003
    #11
  12. George Preddy

    mark herring Guest

    Re: Here is how it works (was Re: Steve's Digicam's classifies the SD-9 and SD-10 as 10.2MP)

    "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    news:bnmo9i$6s2$...
    >
    > "Mark Herring" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:02:02 +0900, "George Preddy"
    > > <> wrote:
    > > In common practice, xx Mpixels refers to the number of independent
    > > spatial samples that can be used to create spatial resolution---ie
    > > detail. Sigma/Foveon simply are not following this standard.

    >
    > The SD-9/10 takes 10.3M indepentent spatial samples, so sure they are.
    > Here's the chart again...
    > http://www.pbase.com/image/22273598
    >


    Nope--sorry. Independent spatial samples means they are taken in different
    parts of the scene. Basic sampling theory--well documented. contact me
    privately for the references
     
    mark herring, Oct 28, 2003
    #12
  13. George Preddy

    Alan Browne Guest

    George Preddy wrote:

    > Message finally received. The first domino has fallen.
    >
    > "The improved 10.2 megapixel (approx. 3.43 million each red + green + blue
    > pixels) image sensor doubles the sensitivity and maximum exposure times and
    > offers increased dynamic range over its predecessor. "
    > http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/sigma_sd10.html
    >
    > Don't know where the ".2" comes from with 10.29M RGB sensors, but the SD-9
    > and 10 are finally properly classified.
    >
    > Good for Steve's Digicams.
    >
    >



    It proves 3 things.

    --Sigma and Foveon are using marketese to "boost" their sensor
    --Steve's D's have bouhght the line, or been paid to do so
    --Steve's D's are just as gullible as you are.
     
    Alan Browne, Oct 29, 2003
    #13
  14. George Preddy

    Alan Browne Guest

    Re: Here is how it works (was Re: Steve's Digicam's classifies theSD-9 and SD-10 as 10.2MP)

    George Preddy wrote:

    >
    > Here is how it works, for real. To sense 1 full color Bayer uses a 4 sensor
    > set...
    > -----
    > RG
    > GB
    > -----
    > It outputs 4 interpolated color pixels which all center on that 1 sensed
    > color. Any color variation between those 4 pixels is artifactual (a much
    > better word than credibleizing). The extra G is wasted, because in a 2x2
    > grid one of the 3 primaries has to be wasted. So it uses the extra G to
    > tune overall luminance a little, then throws the extra-green info away.


    It does not throw the extra green away...

    >
    > Foveon uses 3 sensor to sense 1 full color...
    > -----
    > X
    > -----
    > Where X is a complete RGB set aligned in depth. It outputs 1 pixel with 1
    > non-interpolated color (with a known, not sampled, luminance value).



    George: we know how to count. That's why we can count 3.4 Mpix on the
    Foveon and 11 Mpix on the 1Ds. 'Cause there ARE 11 Mpix on the 1Ds.
     
    Alan Browne, Oct 29, 2003
    #14
  15. Re: Here is how it works (was Re: Steve's Digicam's classifies the SD-9 and SD-10 as 10.2MP)

    "Lionel" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Word has it that on Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:30:48 +0900, in this august
    > forum, "George Preddy" <> said:
    >
    > >
    > >"Mark Herring" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:02:02 +0900, "George Preddy"
    > >> <> wrote:
    > >> In common practice, xx Mpixels refers to the number of independent
    > >> spatial samples that can be used to create spatial resolution---ie
    > >> detail. Sigma/Foveon simply are not following this standard.

    > >
    > >The SD-9/10 takes 10.3M indepentent spatial samples, so sure they are.

    >
    > Sorry, but this is utter bullshit.


    Interesting response.
     
    George Preddy, Oct 29, 2003
    #15
  16. Re: Here is how it works (was Re: Steve's Digicam's classifies the SD-9 and SD-10 as 10.2MP)

    "Bart van der Wolf" <> wrote in message
    news:3f9efad0$0$58710$4all.nl...
    >
    > "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    > news:bnmo9i$6s2$...
    > SNIP
    > > Here is how it works, for real. To sense 1 full color Bayer uses a 4

    > sensor
    >
    > Wrong!
    >
    > Depending on the actual algorithm, *each* pixel uses its 8 independent
    > surrounding pixels (or more) to reconstruct the RGB triplet.


    Same amount of raw optical data, any way you juggle it.
     
    George Preddy, Oct 29, 2003
    #16
  17. Re: Here is how it works (was Re: Steve's Digicam's classifies the SD-9 and SD-10 as 10.2MP)

    "mark herring" <> wrote in message
    news:bnmu12$t45$...
    >
    > "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    > news:bnmo9i$6s2$...
    > >
    > > "Mark Herring" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:02:02 +0900, "George Preddy"
    > > > <> wrote:
    > > > In common practice, xx Mpixels refers to the number of independent
    > > > spatial samples that can be used to create spatial resolution---ie
    > > > detail. Sigma/Foveon simply are not following this standard.

    > >
    > > The SD-9/10 takes 10.3M indepentent spatial samples, so sure they are.
    > > Here's the chart again...
    > > http://www.pbase.com/image/22273598
    > >

    >
    > Nope--sorry. Independent spatial samples means they are taken in

    different
    > parts of the scene. Basic sampling theory--well documented. contact me
    > privately for the references


    The Foveon has better spatial separation between color samples, much better,
    almost 2X better.
     
    George Preddy, Oct 29, 2003
    #17
  18. Re: Here is how it works (was Re: Steve's Digicam's classifies the SD-9 and SD-10 as 10.2MP)

    "Alan Browne" <> wrote in message
    news:CDEnb.48335$...

    > George: we know how to count. That's why we can count 3.4 Mpix on the
    > Foveon and 11 Mpix on the 1Ds. 'Cause there ARE 11 Mpix on the 1Ds.


    Count the pixels in this SD-9 image...

    http://www.pbase.com/image/22500119/original

    What do you get?
     
    George Preddy, Oct 29, 2003
    #18
  19. "Alan Browne" <> wrote in message
    news:AkEnb.47322$...
    >
    >
    > George Preddy wrote:
    >
    > > Message finally received. The first domino has fallen.
    > >
    > > "The improved 10.2 megapixel (approx. 3.43 million each red + green +

    blue
    > > pixels) image sensor doubles the sensitivity and maximum exposure times

    and
    > > offers increased dynamic range over its predecessor. "
    > > http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/sigma_sd10.html
    > >
    > > Don't know where the ".2" comes from with 10.29M RGB sensors, but the

    SD-9
    > > and 10 are finally properly classified.
    > >
    > > Good for Steve's Digicams.
    > >

    > It proves 3 things.
    >
    > --Sigma and Foveon are using marketese to "boost" their sensor
    > --Steve's D's have bouhght the line, or been paid to do so
    > --Steve's D's are just as gullible as you are.


    There is another possiblitly.

    --You didn't know Bayer counts 1/3rd color sensors as full pixels when
    rating their cameras.
     
    George Preddy, Oct 29, 2003
    #19
  20. George Preddy

    peterkip Guest

    "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    news:bnmn57$6fo$...
    >
    > "Lionel" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Word has it that on 28 Oct 2003 02:18:57 -0800, in this august forum,
    > > (Leicaddict) said:
    > >
    > > > (Lionel) wrote in message

    > news:<>...
    > > >> "George Preddy" <> wrote in message

    > news:<bnj2j4$rsv$>...
    > > >> > Message finally received. The first domino has fallen.
    > > >> >
    > > >> > "The improved 10.2 megapixel (approx. 3.43 million each red + green

    +
    > blue
    > > >> > pixels) image sensor doubles the sensitivity and maximum exposure

    > times and
    > > >> > offers increased dynamic range over its predecessor. "
    > > >> > http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/sigma_sd10.html
    > > >> >
    > > >> > Don't know where the ".2" comes from with 10.29M RGB sensors, but

    the
    > SD-9
    > > >> > and 10 are finally properly classified.
    > > >> >
    > > >> > Good for Steve's Digicams.
    > > >>
    > > >> The information you have quoted is highly innacurate
    > > >
    > > >Lionel, shove it up your ass. If you are going to accuse someone of
    > > >being wrong, then back up your statement with a counter-fact.

    > >

    George,

    Can you please show me how I can get 10.3 megapixel images from my SD-9? The
    biggest images I can get are 2268 X 1512 which are about 3.4 megapixels.

    Pete
     
    peterkip, Oct 29, 2003
    #20
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