SSD --- The reliability of

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by Penang, Aug 12, 2009.

  1. Penang

    Penang Guest

    Please pardon me if this topic has been discussed before, but as far
    as I know about the Flash memory, they have a relatively low limit on
    re-write, as compared to hard disk

    In situation where database use in concern, read and write operation
    takes place very often

    I know that there are pros and cons in this issue, but basically my
    question is this --- How reliable is SSD?
     
    Penang, Aug 12, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Scraggy wrote:
    > Penang wrote:
    >> Please pardon me if this topic has been discussed before, but as far
    >> as I know about the Flash memory, they have a relatively low limit on
    >> re-write, as compared to hard disk
    >>
    >> In situation where database use in concern, read and write operation
    >> takes place very often
    >>
    >> I know that there are pros and cons in this issue, but basically my
    >> question is this --- How reliable is SSD?

    >
    >
    > How long is a piece of string?
    >

    Given the quality of most netbooks, who gives a rats arse about the
    drive? (with all due respect)

    As with all things PC related, TAKE REGULAR BACKUPS
     
    Caulfield Man, Aug 12, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Penang

    James Harris Guest

    On 12 Aug, 07:30, Penang <> wrote:
    > Please pardon me if this topic has been discussed before, but as far
    > as I know about the Flash memory, they have a relatively low limit on
    > re-write, as compared to hard disk
    >
    > In situation where database use in concern, read and write operation
    > takes place very often
    >
    > I know that there are pros and cons in this issue, but basically my
    > question is this --- How reliable is SSD?


    This is a maturing market and it seems that answers must vary
    depending on what technologies are used in a specific device. For a
    couple of pointers see

    http://serverfault.com/questions/14189/reliability-of-ssd-drives

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-9896566-64.html

    Note Samsung's comment in particular in the second link. Of course
    manufacturers will try to allay fears.

    Why not try one or try a couple of them in raid-1 form - and, of
    course, take regular backups? I've seem a number of hard disks fail so
    don't expect perfection from either technology.

    James
     
    James Harris, Aug 12, 2009
    #3
  4. Penang

    Gerard Bok Guest

    On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 23:30:35 -0700 (PDT), Penang
    <> wrote:

    >Please pardon me if this topic has been discussed before, but as far
    >as I know about the Flash memory, they have a relatively low limit on
    >re-write, as compared to hard disk
    >
    >In situation where database use in concern, read and write operation
    >takes place very often
    >
    >I know that there are pros and cons in this issue, but basically my
    >question is this --- How reliable is SSD?


    If you want to find a useful answer, you will need to dig much
    deeper into this matter.

    What harddisk? A US$ 50 2.5" laptop harddisk ? or a US$ 1000
    15.000 rpm SAS server drive ?

    What SSD ? NAND Flash, NOR Flash, single cell, multi level cell ?

    As a rule of thumb: Flash doesn't just replace magnetics.
    To justify the use of flash memory, you will need at least one
    other reason.
    And --very important, imho-- a file and operating system that is
    tuned to flash, while all current mainstream OSs are disk-tuned
    only :)

    --
    Kind regards,
    Gerard Bok
     
    Gerard Bok, Aug 12, 2009
    #4
  5. darklight <> pinched out a steaming pile
    of<>:

    >Question how many times do you read write to a hard drive in a year?
    >Question how many times do you think you will read write to a ssd in a

    year?
    >
    >Then go and buy a usb stick and read write to it then come back and

    tell us
    >how long it took you break it. And how many read write operations it

    took
    >to break it.
    >
    >I assume we will hear from you in a couple of years.
    >

    What about swapfiles, mate?

    ^_^


    --
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COaoYqkpkUA
    cageprisoners.com|www.snuhwolf.9f.com|www.eyeonpalin.org
    _____ ____ ____ __ /\_/\ __ _ ______ _____
    / __/ |/ / / / / // // . . \\ \ |\ | / __ \ \ \ __\
    _\ \/ / /_/ / _ / \ / \ \| \| \ \_\ \ \__\ _\
    /___/_/|_/\____/_//_/ \_@_/ \__|\__|\____/\____\_\
     
    §ñühw¤£f, Aug 12, 2009
    #5
  6. Penang

    Paul Guest

    Penang wrote:
    > Please pardon me if this topic has been discussed before, but as far
    > as I know about the Flash memory, they have a relatively low limit on
    > re-write, as compared to hard disk
    >
    > In situation where database use in concern, read and write operation
    > takes place very often
    >
    > I know that there are pros and cons in this issue, but basically my
    > question is this --- How reliable is SSD?


    http://www.imation.com/PageFiles/83/SSD-Reliability-Lifetime-White-Paper.pdf

    The last page of the report addresses "wearout" as a function of writes.
    As far as I can tell, they use the best kinds of writes (large sequential),
    to make the estimate.

    The flash block size is 128KB. If you want to update 4KB of that,
    you have to rewrite the whole thing. So relatively speaking, it is
    "32x" more expensive, to deal with the small sized write.

    To understand whether SSD may be of value to you, you need to know
    how much data you write per day. If it is a small amount, then it may
    not matter what size the writes are. If you write large amounts of
    data, then you'd want to understand the characteristics very well.
    (That means sorting all the writes into "size bins".)

    Before you buy anything, you should also read some recent reviews
    of SSD products, and some of the performance problems they can have.
    Don't just buy the SSD with the lowest price. You're regret it.
    This is a hint as to what you're looking for. There are more articles
    around, which test for this.

    http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3403&p=8

    If you want to build a test system for evaluation, use Intel
    X25-E SSDs.

    *******

    None of the above addresses "reliability" as such. The above addresses
    "wearout", where you know the thing will eventually fail, as a function
    of how many writes you've done. Wear leveling makes the most of the
    write cycle limits of SLC or MLC flash chips.

    Reliability takes into account other things, like how often a
    flash chip just rolls over and dies for no particularly good reason.
    Take the stick of RAM in my previous computer as an example - one entire
    chip stopped responding, after about two years of usage. Why did that happen ?
    That is an example of something not accounted for as wearout -
    that is a device failure unrelated to usage. RAM should not
    wear out. And yet I've had failures at the two year mark (the
    stick was not abused, and the computer case is cooled well).
    If the chips in a flash drive do that too, then not only would
    I have wearout to consider, I'd have device reliability
    (chips dying) to add to the effect. And the only way to study that
    in any effective way, is to get field return data for SSD drives.
    And nobody gives out field return data.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Aug 12, 2009
    #6
  7. Penang

    Penang Guest

    On Aug 12, 2:41 pm, Paul <> wrote:
    > Penang wrote:
    > > Please pardon me if this topic has been discussed before, but as far
    > > as I know about the Flash memory, they have a relatively low limit on
    > > re-write, as compared to hard disk

    >
    > > In situation where database use in concern, read and write operation
    > > takes place very often

    >
    > > I know that there are pros and cons in this issue, but basically my
    > > question is this --- How reliable is SSD?

    >
    > http://www.imation.com/PageFiles/83/SSD-Reliability-Lifetime-White-Pa...
    >
    > The last page of the report addresses "wearout" as a function of writes.
    > As far as I can tell, they use the best kinds of writes (large sequential),
    > to make the estimate.
    >
    > The flash block size is 128KB. If you want to update 4KB of that,
    > you have to rewrite the whole thing. So relatively speaking, it is
    > "32x" more expensive, to deal with the small sized write.
    >
    > To understand whether SSD may be of value to you, you need to know
    > how much data you write per day. If it is a small amount, then it may
    > not matter what size the writes are. If you write large amounts of
    > data, then you'd want to understand the characteristics very well.
    > (That means sorting all the writes into "size bins".)
    >
    > Before you buy anything, you should also read some recent reviews
    > of SSD products, and some of the performance problems they can have.
    > Don't just buy the SSD with the lowest price. You're regret it.
    > This is a hint as to what you're looking for. There are more articles
    > around, which test for this.
    >
    > http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3403&p=8
    >
    > If you want to build a test system for evaluation, use Intel
    > X25-E SSDs.



    One funny thing is --- Intel has just announced the suspension of
    their X25-E SSD product

    Reason? Technical

    But rumors of pre-mature deaths of the SSD may cause Intel to think
    twice about selling products that don't work


    >
    > *******
    >
    > None of the above addresses "reliability" as such. The above addresses
    > "wearout", where you know the thing will eventually fail, as a function
    > of how many writes you've done. Wear leveling makes the most of the
    > write cycle limits of SLC or MLC flash chips.
    >
    > Reliability takes into account other things, like how often a
    > flash chip just rolls over and dies for no particularly good reason.
    > Take the stick of RAM in my previous computer as an example - one entire
    > chip stopped responding, after about two years of usage. Why did that happen ?
    > That is an example of something not accounted for as wearout -
    > that is a device failure unrelated to usage. RAM should not
    > wear out. And yet I've had failures at the two year mark (the
    > stick was not abused, and the computer case is cooled well).
    > If the chips in a flash drive do that too, then not only would
    > I have wearout to consider, I'd have device reliability
    > (chips dying) to add to the effect. And the only way to study that
    > in any effective way, is to get field return data for SSD drives.
    > And nobody gives out field return data.
    >
    >     Paul
     
    Penang, Aug 14, 2009
    #7
  8. Penang schrieb:
    > Please pardon me if this topic has been discussed before, but as far
    > as I know about the Flash memory, they have a relatively low limit on
    > re-write, as compared to hard disk
    >
    > In situation where database use in concern, read and write operation
    > takes place very often
    >
    > I know that there are pros and cons in this issue, but basically my
    > question is this --- How reliable is SSD?


    Hi Penang,

    sorry for joining in so late, but I did not have access to
    usenet the last 4 days.

    You will find a l o t of useful information at
    www.storagesearch.com

    To make it short:
    A flash disk is not a real SSD.
    Real SSDs do like 16K IOPS per disk
    and they are very reliable, very expensive and
    on the market for like 20+ years.

    There are 2 types of flash disks: SLC (single layer) -
    smaller (i.e.upto 64GB), more expensive and faster.
    MLC (multi layer) - those are bigger (upto 512GB from
    Toshiba) usually 256 GB now and in the EUR 600 price
    range for 256 GB.

    So if a flash disk 'wears out' first thing to happen is,
    that is gets slower, much slower, that is, and in a
    short period of time (exactly this is Intel's problem atm).

    After a long period they finally are so slow, that I think
    they might never die from wearing out .....
    I am not that far in testing, though.

    What I do in week 9 atm is trying to do harm to the
    ones I testing. I give them 2800 IOPS writing only
    and 2 KB blocks only. I have to types: internally
    having 4 KB blocks or 8 KB blocks.
    So I write 86400 x 2800 blocks per day for 64 days now.
    None is slower that at the beginning - so far.

    If you can throw in a lot of money, have a look
    at the real speed: Texas Memory Systems
    www.ramsan.com

    Or on a much cheaper scale: the 12 slot boxes from
    www.infortrend.com (in heavy use at CERN, Switzerland).

    And n e v e r e v e r go RAID5 using a flash disk!
    Writing the parity there kills a third of the lifetime.
    www.baarf.com has all on RAID5 and why never it is a good
    idea.

    dic_k

    --
    Richard Kofler
    SOLID STATE EDV
    Dienstleistungen GmbH
    Vienna/Austria/Europe
     
    Richard Kofler, Aug 14, 2009
    #8
  9. Penang

    Paul Guest

    Penang wrote:
    >
    > One funny thing is --- Intel has just announced the suspension of
    > their X25-E SSD product
    >
    > Reason? Technical
    >
    > But rumors of pre-mature deaths of the SSD may cause Intel to think
    > twice about selling products that don't work
    >


    Link ?

    Paul
     
    Paul, Aug 14, 2009
    #9
  10. Paul schrieb:
    > Penang wrote:
    >>
    >> One funny thing is --- Intel has just announced the suspension of
    >> their X25-E SSD product
    >>
    >> Reason? Technical
    >>
    >> But rumors of pre-mature deaths of the SSD may cause Intel to think
    >> twice about selling products that don't work
    >>

    >
    > Link ?
    >
    > Paul
    >

    Hi Paul

    here is one of the many links:
    http://www.digitimes.com/bits_chips/a20090731PD216.html

    Further infos and bg infos is here
    http://storagesearch.com/

    search for
    'Why Consumers Can Expect More Flaky Flash SSDs'

    dic_k
    --
    Richard Kofler
    SOLID STATE EDV
    Dienstleistungen GmbH
    Vienna/Austria/Europe
     
    Richard Kofler, Aug 14, 2009
    #10
  11. Penang

    Paul Guest

    Richard Kofler wrote:
    > Paul schrieb:
    >> Penang wrote:
    >>>
    >>> One funny thing is --- Intel has just announced the suspension of
    >>> their X25-E SSD product
    >>>
    >>> Reason? Technical
    >>>
    >>> But rumors of pre-mature deaths of the SSD may cause Intel to think
    >>> twice about selling products that don't work
    >>>

    >>
    >> Link ?
    >>
    >> Paul
    >>

    > Hi Paul
    >
    > here is one of the many links:
    > http://www.digitimes.com/bits_chips/a20090731PD216.html
    >
    > Further infos and bg infos is here
    > http://storagesearch.com/
    >
    > search for
    > 'Why Consumers Can Expect More Flaky Flash SSDs'
    >
    > dic_k


    As I don't have a Digitimes subscription, I had to use a paraphrased article
    here, translated from Russian to English. This is just the BIOS password
    issue, and not an issue with the flash chips.

    http://groups.google.ca/group/fido7...5b640?tvc=1&q=a20090731PD216#642ddf6e9845b640

    " intel has suspended the supply of ssd-drive a new generation

    Published: 31.07.2009, 12:02

    Corporation INTEL [1] confirmed the existence of a problem with
    own solid-state drives next-generation ...

    ... And reported the suspension of deliveries.

    Hovye SSD drives are manufactured with the use of
    34-nanometer technology. Compared to the available market
    intel ssd-storage devices are more
    high capacity, enhanced performance and lesser
    value.

    The issue in question relates to an error in the embedded
    Software SSD-drives. In the case of user installs, and then
    try to edit or delete password BIOS, may fail, resulting in
    owner of the PC will lose access to information stored on
    solid-state disk.

    Users who have already bought a new generation of SSD, Intel
    strongly recommends not to proceed with the manipulation of password
    BIOS. The company works hard to eliminate mistakes and promises
    issue a corrected version lproshivki within two weeks.

    Added that the 34-nanometer Intel solid-state drives now
    made in the form 2.5 and 1.8 inches and are offered in
    modifications of the capacity of 80 and 160 GB.

    Prepared based on DIGITIMES [2].

    [1]: http://www.intel.com/
    [2]: http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20090731PD216.HTML "

    A firmware patch for the BIOS bug was released Aug 10.

    http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=750

    Paul
     
    Paul, Aug 15, 2009
    #11
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Anxious Man

    Reliability of Mozilla Backup

    Anxious Man, Jan 22, 2004, in forum: Firefox
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    455
    Anxious Man
    Jan 22, 2004
  2. Ned Hart
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    2,587
    Hansang Bae
    Jun 16, 2004
  3. Fred Atkinson

    Reliability of Provider

    Fred Atkinson, Jul 23, 2005, in forum: Cisco
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    409
    Fred Atkinson
    Jul 23, 2005
  4. Replies:
    0
    Views:
    488
  5. Becky

    Intel SSD 910 PCI Express SSD Performance

    Becky, May 4, 2012, in forum: Front Page News
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    1,165
    Becky
    May 4, 2012
Loading...

Share This Page