Sorry Sorry Sorry but what camera for me - Real Esate

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Phil, Dec 21, 2003.

  1. Phil

    Phil Guest

    I feel so guilty asking this as it is asked so many times. But I have been
    looking very very hard over recent weeks and am more confused than when I
    first started. Here's my specific needs.

    I visit 3/4 properties per week
    I need to take between 6 and 12 shots covering building, gardens, street
    scene and internals.
    Internal shots a bit of a problem needing as wide an angle as possible.
    Other problem with internal is that some of the rooms seem to have very
    little light, small windows and dark carpets drapes and furniture thereby
    soaking the light from my current flash.
    External can sometimes be a problem as I would need to take from a distance
    IE across the river so optical zoom 4x + needed.
    I can only go once so have to accept whatever lighting conditions on that
    day.
    Nearly all on being sold on a 'strictly confidential' basis so I haven't
    time to fiddle with settings - I just have to zip round very quickly and
    without neighbours being aware.
    I don't mind some fiddling on software but haven't time to become more than
    amateur and rely on auto settings.
    The camera must get in my briefcase (quite big but not for SLR) as I do not
    want to have to carry a separate bag otherwise I will look conspicuous
    The printed end product is A4 four sides all colour. Largest photo 19 cm
    wide but most of others 10 cms max.
    It seems that whatever camera I get will be an improvement on my Kodak 280
    which as been serving me very well but it looks the biggest compromise will
    be losing its 30mm wider angle lens.

    If you guys can help I would be glad.

    Phil
     
    Phil, Dec 21, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Phil

    HRosita Guest

    Hi,

    Check out the Minolta A1.
    28-200 zoom (7x). good for wide angle and long shots.
    Anti shake technology so you can get decent indoor pictures with the wide
    angle.

    5 MP for cropping unwanted objects.
    and for large prints.

    Cost is a bit high, around $760 - $850.

    Good luck
    Rosita
     
    HRosita, Dec 21, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Phil

    Guest

    Phil <reply to group> wrote:
    > Nearly all on being sold on a 'strictly confidential' basis so I haven't
    > time to fiddle with settings - I just have to zip round very quickly and
    > without neighbours being aware.
    > I don't mind some fiddling on software but haven't time to become more than
    > amateur and rely on auto settings.
    > The camera must get in my briefcase (quite big but not for SLR) as I do not
    > want to have to carry a separate bag otherwise I will look conspicuous
    > The printed end product is A4 four sides all colour. Largest photo 19 cm
    > wide but most of others 10 cms max.
    > It seems that whatever camera I get will be an improvement on my Kodak 280
    > which as been serving me very well but it looks the biggest compromise will
    > be losing its 30mm wider angle lens.


    > If you guys can help I would be glad.


    Buy any of the major brand cameras that fits in your pocket and that has
    a 4x optical zoom. You should be fine. Your needs are modest. This decision
    is not worth stewing about. Just go to a decent camera store that has a
    wide selection of cameras and make your selection based on the model that
    has the features you want, fits in your budget, and feels best in your hands.
    All of the major digi camera companies offer products that would meet your
    needs, such as Canon, Casio, Pentax, Minolta, Nikon, and so on.
     
    , Dec 21, 2003
    #3
  4. Phil

    Bob Hatch Guest

    <> wrote in message news:bs49ve$r61$...
    >
    > Buy any of the major brand cameras that fits in your pocket and that has
    > a 4x optical zoom. You should be fine. Your needs are modest. This

    decision
    > is not worth stewing about. Just go to a decent camera store that has a
    > wide selection of cameras and make your selection based on the model that
    > has the features you want, fits in your budget, and feels best in your

    hands.
    > All of the major digi camera companies offer products that would meet your
    > needs, such as Canon, Casio, Pentax, Minolta, Nikon, and so on.


    What Stan said, then add to that:

    A tripod for the low light situations and a stitching program. With those
    two additions you can do everything you want to do.
    --
    "Secular nations have one thing in common -- mass graves, and
    the reason is that they believe the government is the final arbiter
    of right and wrong and good and evil." --Rob Schenk
    http://www.bobhatch.com
     
    Bob Hatch, Dec 21, 2003
    #4
  5. Phil

    LauraK Guest

    Get one of the Oly's with the 1.8 lens. Makes a major difference in low light
    shots.
    The 5050 should serve your purposes very well.


    http://www.madmousergraphics.com
    web design, print design, photography
     
    LauraK, Dec 21, 2003
    #5
  6. "Phil" <reply to group> wrote in message
    news:3fe56fcb$0$11218$...
    > I feel so guilty asking this as it is asked so many times. But I have been
    > looking very very hard over recent weeks and am more confused than when I
    > first started. Here's my specific needs.
    >
    > I visit 3/4 properties per week
    > I need to take between 6 and 12 shots covering building, gardens, street
    > scene and internals.
    > Internal shots a bit of a problem needing as wide an angle as possible.
    > Other problem with internal is that some of the rooms seem to have very
    > little light, small windows and dark carpets drapes and furniture thereby
    > soaking the light from my current flash.


    Get the Canon G5 with an external flash attachment, and wide angle lens
    attachment.
    You don't want to mess with stitching.
    You don't want to mess with tripods.

    Whatever you get, you'll need a better flash than what's on there.
     
    Steven M. Scharf, Dec 21, 2003
    #6
  7. Phil

    Doc Guest

    "Phil" <reply to group> wrote in message
    news:3fe56fcb$0$11218$...

    > I can only go once so have to accept whatever lighting conditions on that
    > day.


    > Nearly all on being sold on a 'strictly confidential' basis so I haven't
    > time to fiddle with settings - I just have to zip round very quickly and
    > without neighbours being aware.


    > The camera must get in my briefcase (quite big but not for SLR) as I do

    not
    > want to have to carry a separate bag otherwise I will look conspicuous


    > Phil


    Sorry Phil but this whoe thing sounds fishy to me.

    You're getting a listing for real estate-- with a median US home price in
    the $150,000 range, you're looking at a total commission of on average
    $10,500. And you can't be bothered going back for a second shoot?

    Real estate sales are public events. They're listed in the book of deeds at
    the local court house-- and what difference can the neighbors' knowing make?
    So you need a Carry Concealed permit for you camera?

    Come on guy-- what's really going on?

    Doc
     
    Doc, Dec 21, 2003
    #7
  8. Phil

    Phil Guest

    "Doc" <> wrote in message
    news:cskFb.7457$...
    > "Phil" <reply to group> wrote in message
    > news:3fe56fcb$0$11218$...
    >
    > > I can only go once so have to accept whatever lighting conditions on

    that
    > > day.

    >
    > > Nearly all on being sold on a 'strictly confidential' basis so I haven't
    > > time to fiddle with settings - I just have to zip round very quickly and
    > > without neighbours being aware.

    >
    > > The camera must get in my briefcase (quite big but not for SLR) as I do

    > not
    > > want to have to carry a separate bag otherwise I will look conspicuous

    >
    > > Phil

    >
    > Sorry Phil but this whoe thing sounds fishy to me.
    >
    > You're getting a listing for real estate-- with a median US home price in
    > the $150,000 range, you're looking at a total commission of on average
    > $10,500. And you can't be bothered going back for a second shoot?
    >
    > Real estate sales are public events. They're listed in the book of deeds

    at
    > the local court house-- and what difference can the neighbors' knowing

    make?
    > So you need a Carry Concealed permit for you camera?
    >
    > Come on guy-- what's really going on?
    >
    > Doc


    It is real estate including a business - home and income - often with staff,
    customers, suppliers, to who I am passed off as the man from the tourist
    board, web design company, bank or similar. When theproperty is five hours
    round trip is it not practical to pop back. Anyway my reasons are legitimate
    and I was asking advice on a camera and have no wish to be told how to run
    my business if you don't mind.

    Phil
     
    Phil, Dec 21, 2003
    #8
  9. Phil

    default name Guest

    Probably some sort of collection agency looking to recover on judgments
    etc., Had one of those asking here last week wanting help recovering a boat!
     
    default name, Dec 21, 2003
    #9
  10. Phil

    JK Guest

    Buy a Digital Rebel slr, an f2.8 zoom lens, and a larger briefcase!

    Phil wrote:

    > I feel so guilty asking this as it is asked so many times. But I have been
    > looking very very hard over recent weeks and am more confused than when I
    > first started. Here's my specific needs.
    >
    > I visit 3/4 properties per week
    > I need to take between 6 and 12 shots covering building, gardens, street
    > scene and internals.
    > Internal shots a bit of a problem needing as wide an angle as possible.
    > Other problem with internal is that some of the rooms seem to have very
    > little light, small windows and dark carpets drapes and furniture thereby
    > soaking the light from my current flash.
    > External can sometimes be a problem as I would need to take from a distance
    > IE across the river so optical zoom 4x + needed.
    > I can only go once so have to accept whatever lighting conditions on that
    > day.
    > Nearly all on being sold on a 'strictly confidential' basis so I haven't
    > time to fiddle with settings - I just have to zip round very quickly and
    > without neighbours being aware.
    > I don't mind some fiddling on software but haven't time to become more than
    > amateur and rely on auto settings.
    > The camera must get in my briefcase (quite big but not for SLR) as I do not
    > want to have to carry a separate bag otherwise I will look conspicuous
    > The printed end product is A4 four sides all colour. Largest photo 19 cm
    > wide but most of others 10 cms max.
    > It seems that whatever camera I get will be an improvement on my Kodak 280
    > which as been serving me very well but it looks the biggest compromise will
    > be losing its 30mm wider angle lens.
    >
    > If you guys can help I would be glad.
    >
    > Phil
     
    JK, Dec 22, 2003
    #10
  11. Phil

    JK Guest

    The C5050 has a lens that is 25-105 mm equivalent. It will not be good
    for full room photos of small rooms.

    LauraK wrote:

    > Get one of the Oly's with the 1.8 lens. Makes a major difference in low light
    > shots.
    > The 5050 should serve your purposes very well.
    >
    >
    > http://www.madmousergraphics.com
    > web design, print design, photography
     
    JK, Dec 22, 2003
    #11
  12. Phil

    JK Guest

    A typo. The lens on the C5050 is 35-105 mm equivalent.

    JK wrote:

    > The C5050 has a lens that is 25-105 mm equivalent. It will not be good
    > for full room photos of small rooms.
    >
    > LauraK wrote:
    >
    > > Get one of the Oly's with the 1.8 lens. Makes a major difference in low light
    > > shots.
    > > The 5050 should serve your purposes very well.
    > >
    > >
    > > http://www.madmousergraphics.com
    > > web design, print design, photography
     
    JK, Dec 22, 2003
    #12
  13. Phil

    Phil Guest

    After quietly reading this news group for several months I realise the
    Rebel is a good camera. Yep perhaps you are right I should look for a bigger
    briefcase :)


    "JK" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Buy a Digital Rebel slr, an f2.8 zoom lens, and a larger briefcase!
    >
    > Phil wrote:
    >
    > > I feel so guilty asking this as it is asked so many times. But I have

    been
    > > looking very very hard over recent weeks and am more confused than when

    I
    > > first started. Here's my specific needs.
    > >
    > > I visit 3/4 properties per week
    > > I need to take between 6 and 12 shots covering building, gardens, street
    > > scene and internals.
    > > Internal shots a bit of a problem needing as wide an angle as possible.
    > > Other problem with internal is that some of the rooms seem to have very
    > > little light, small windows and dark carpets drapes and furniture

    thereby
    > > soaking the light from my current flash.
    > > External can sometimes be a problem as I would need to take from a

    distance
    > > IE across the river so optical zoom 4x + needed.
    > > I can only go once so have to accept whatever lighting conditions on

    that
    > > day.
    > > Nearly all on being sold on a 'strictly confidential' basis so I haven't
    > > time to fiddle with settings - I just have to zip round very quickly and
    > > without neighbours being aware.
    > > I don't mind some fiddling on software but haven't time to become more

    than
    > > amateur and rely on auto settings.
    > > The camera must get in my briefcase (quite big but not for SLR) as I do

    not
    > > want to have to carry a separate bag otherwise I will look conspicuous
    > > The printed end product is A4 four sides all colour. Largest photo 19 cm
    > > wide but most of others 10 cms max.
    > > It seems that whatever camera I get will be an improvement on my Kodak

    280
    > > which as been serving me very well but it looks the biggest compromise

    will
    > > be losing its 30mm wider angle lens.
    > >
    > > If you guys can help I would be glad.
    > >
    > > Phil

    >
     
    Phil, Dec 22, 2003
    #13
  14. "Phil" <reply to group> wrote in message
    news:3fe5e14f$0$10373$...

    > Anyway my reasons are legitimate
    > and I was asking advice on a camera and have no wish to be told how to run
    > my business if you don't mind.
    >
    > Phil


    Phil:

    This is Usenet, where many people have a very hard time just answering a
    simple question.
    Anyway, you have two options, a D-SLR, of which the only decent ones below
    $1500, are th Canon 10D
    and Canon EOS 300D, or getting a high end point and shoot such as the Canon
    G3 or G5, and adding on a wide angle lens. In both cases you'll need a
    flash.

    I'd lean toward the 300D. By the time you add the extension tube and lens
    onto the G3 or G5 you'll be better off just getting the SLR with a proper
    wide angle lens.

    I'm afraid that you will not be inconspicuous though,
     
    Steven M. Scharf, Dec 22, 2003
    #14
  15. "Steven M. Scharf" <> writes:

    > This is Usenet, where many people have a very hard time just answering a
    > simple question.
    > Anyway, you have two options, a D-SLR, of which the only decent ones below
    > $1500, are th Canon 10D
    > and Canon EOS 300D, or getting a high end point and shoot such as the Canon
    > G3 or G5, and adding on a wide angle lens. In both cases you'll need a
    > flash.
    >
    > I'd lean toward the 300D. By the time you add the extension tube and lens
    > onto the G3 or G5 you'll be better off just getting the SLR with a proper
    > wide angle lens.
    >
    > I'm afraid that you will not be inconspicuous though,


    Unfortunately, the answer with the DSLR is probably not too helpful unless they
    go for the $8000 Canon 1Ds or $5000 Kodak 14n, since all other DSLRs use a
    smaller sensor than the traditional 24x36mm film size sensor. This smaller
    sensor means they use only the center of the lens. You use a multiplication
    factor (called the crop factor) to get the effective lens focal range. For
    example, the Canon 10D and 300D have a crop factor of 1.6, which means a 20mm
    lens for instance becomes effectively a 32mm lens. You can get very wide film
    lenses and use them on DSLRs, turning them into normal wide angle cameras, but
    in general those lenses are expensive. The 300D kit lens is fairly wide
    (18-55mm before multiplying by 1.6, 29-88mm after multiplying) and is cheap,
    but only available as part of the initial kit.

    If 28mm is enough, there are a couple of prosumer cameras you might want to
    look at: Minolta A1/7HI/7I/7, Nikon 5400, Olympus C-5060WZ, and Ricoh G5 wide.
    I think you can get a wide angle attachment for the Nikon to bring it to 19mm,
    and I believe there is a wide angle lens for the Olympus, but I don't recall
    about the Minolta or Ricoh.

    The other option is to take multiple pictures and glue them together as a
    panorama.

    --
    Michael Meissner
    email:
    http://www.the-meissners.org
     
    Michael Meissner, Dec 22, 2003
    #15
  16. Phil

    Phil Guest

    Thanks for all the replies.
    Most helpful and has got me a shortlist sorted.

    Phil
     
    Phil, Dec 23, 2003
    #16
  17. Phil

    Mark Grady Guest

    Have you considered hiring a pro? You are trying to sell these houses,
    right? Do you really think that your lack of knowledge of photography is
    helping? No, it's not. If you have any doubts take a look at some
    professionally shot images, then try to duplicate them.

    "Phil" <reply to group> wrote in message
    news:3fe56fcb$0$11218$...
    > I feel so guilty asking this as it is asked so many times. But I have been
    > looking very very hard over recent weeks and am more confused than when I
    > first started. Here's my specific needs.
    >
    > I visit 3/4 properties per week
    > I need to take between 6 and 12 shots covering building, gardens, street
    > scene and internals.
    > Internal shots a bit of a problem needing as wide an angle as possible.
    > Other problem with internal is that some of the rooms seem to have very
    > little light, small windows and dark carpets drapes and furniture thereby
    > soaking the light from my current flash.
    > External can sometimes be a problem as I would need to take from a

    distance
    > IE across the river so optical zoom 4x + needed.
    > I can only go once so have to accept whatever lighting conditions on that
    > day.
    > Nearly all on being sold on a 'strictly confidential' basis so I haven't
    > time to fiddle with settings - I just have to zip round very quickly and
    > without neighbours being aware.
    > I don't mind some fiddling on software but haven't time to become more

    than
    > amateur and rely on auto settings.
    > The camera must get in my briefcase (quite big but not for SLR) as I do

    not
    > want to have to carry a separate bag otherwise I will look conspicuous
    > The printed end product is A4 four sides all colour. Largest photo 19 cm
    > wide but most of others 10 cms max.
    > It seems that whatever camera I get will be an improvement on my Kodak 280
    > which as been serving me very well but it looks the biggest compromise

    will
    > be losing its 30mm wider angle lens.
    >
    > If you guys can help I would be glad.
    >
    > Phil
    >
    >
     
    Mark Grady, Dec 25, 2003
    #17
  18. Phil

    Phil Guest

    Pros are uneconomic.
    My shots are to a very high standard even with relatively inexpensive
    camera.
    Phil


    "Mark Grady" <> wrote in message
    news:sNIGb.789$...
    > Have you considered hiring a pro? You are trying to sell these houses,
    > right? Do you really think that your lack of knowledge of photography is
    > helping? No, it's not. If you have any doubts take a look at some
    > professionally shot images, then try to duplicate them.
    >
    > "Phil" <reply to group> wrote in message
    > news:3fe56fcb$0$11218$...
    > > I feel so guilty asking this as it is asked so many times. But I have

    been
    > > looking very very hard over recent weeks and am more confused than when

    I
    > > first started. Here's my specific needs.
    > >
    > > I visit 3/4 properties per week
    > > I need to take between 6 and 12 shots covering building, gardens, street
    > > scene and internals.
    > > Internal shots a bit of a problem needing as wide an angle as possible.
    > > Other problem with internal is that some of the rooms seem to have very
    > > little light, small windows and dark carpets drapes and furniture

    thereby
    > > soaking the light from my current flash.
    > > External can sometimes be a problem as I would need to take from a

    > distance
    > > IE across the river so optical zoom 4x + needed.
    > > I can only go once so have to accept whatever lighting conditions on

    that
    > > day.
    > > Nearly all on being sold on a 'strictly confidential' basis so I haven't
    > > time to fiddle with settings - I just have to zip round very quickly and
    > > without neighbours being aware.
    > > I don't mind some fiddling on software but haven't time to become more

    > than
    > > amateur and rely on auto settings.
    > > The camera must get in my briefcase (quite big but not for SLR) as I do

    > not
    > > want to have to carry a separate bag otherwise I will look conspicuous
    > > The printed end product is A4 four sides all colour. Largest photo 19 cm
    > > wide but most of others 10 cms max.
    > > It seems that whatever camera I get will be an improvement on my Kodak

    280
    > > which as been serving me very well but it looks the biggest compromise

    > will
    > > be losing its 30mm wider angle lens.
    > >
    > > If you guys can help I would be glad.
    > >
    > > Phil
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Phil, Dec 25, 2003
    #18
  19. Phil

    JK Guest

    Mark Grady wrote:

    > Have you considered hiring a pro?


    Do you know one who works very cheaply in his area? If he
    knew a photography student with a digital slr who would work
    for $10 an hour and typically be available when he needed him,
    he probably wouldn't need a digital slr. Hiring a pro at around
    $100 an hour (or even $50 an hour) is not an economical
    alternative for many people much of the time.

    > You are trying to sell these houses,
    > right? Do you really think that your lack of knowledge of photography is
    > helping? No, it's not.


    > If you have any doubts take a look at some
    > professionally shot images, then try to duplicate them.
    >
    > "Phil" <reply to group> wrote in message
    > news:3fe56fcb$0$11218$...
    > > I feel so guilty asking this as it is asked so many times. But I have been
    > > looking very very hard over recent weeks and am more confused than when I
    > > first started. Here's my specific needs.
    > >
    > > I visit 3/4 properties per week
    > > I need to take between 6 and 12 shots covering building, gardens, street
    > > scene and internals.
    > > Internal shots a bit of a problem needing as wide an angle as possible.
    > > Other problem with internal is that some of the rooms seem to have very
    > > little light, small windows and dark carpets drapes and furniture thereby
    > > soaking the light from my current flash.
    > > External can sometimes be a problem as I would need to take from a

    > distance
    > > IE across the river so optical zoom 4x + needed.
    > > I can only go once so have to accept whatever lighting conditions on that
    > > day.
    > > Nearly all on being sold on a 'strictly confidential' basis so I haven't
    > > time to fiddle with settings - I just have to zip round very quickly and
    > > without neighbours being aware.
    > > I don't mind some fiddling on software but haven't time to become more

    > than
    > > amateur and rely on auto settings.
    > > The camera must get in my briefcase (quite big but not for SLR) as I do

    > not
    > > want to have to carry a separate bag otherwise I will look conspicuous
    > > The printed end product is A4 four sides all colour. Largest photo 19 cm
    > > wide but most of others 10 cms max.
    > > It seems that whatever camera I get will be an improvement on my Kodak 280
    > > which as been serving me very well but it looks the biggest compromise

    > will
    > > be losing its 30mm wider angle lens.
    > >
    > > If you guys can help I would be glad.
    > >
    > > Phil
    > >
    > >
     
    JK, Dec 28, 2003
    #19
  20. Phil

    Phil Guest

    The student idea would not work as the area could be up to 100 miles in any
    direction so to find someone in all these areas would be impossible.

    Phil

    "JK" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > Mark Grady wrote:
    >
    > > Have you considered hiring a pro?

    >
    > Do you know one who works very cheaply in his area? If he
    > knew a photography student with a digital slr who would work
    > for $10 an hour and typically be available when he needed him,
    > he probably wouldn't need a digital slr. Hiring a pro at around
    > $100 an hour (or even $50 an hour) is not an economical
    > alternative for many people much of the time.
    >
    > > You are trying to sell these houses,
    > > right? Do you really think that your lack of knowledge of photography is
    > > helping? No, it's not.

    >
    > > If you have any doubts take a look at some
    > > professionally shot images, then try to duplicate them.
    > >
    > > "Phil" <reply to group> wrote in message
    > > news:3fe56fcb$0$11218$...
    > > > I feel so guilty asking this as it is asked so many times. But I have

    been
    > > > looking very very hard over recent weeks and am more confused than

    when I
    > > > first started. Here's my specific needs.
    > > >
    > > > I visit 3/4 properties per week
    > > > I need to take between 6 and 12 shots covering building, gardens,

    street
    > > > scene and internals.
    > > > Internal shots a bit of a problem needing as wide an angle as

    possible.
    > > > Other problem with internal is that some of the rooms seem to have

    very
    > > > little light, small windows and dark carpets drapes and furniture

    thereby
    > > > soaking the light from my current flash.
    > > > External can sometimes be a problem as I would need to take from a

    > > distance
    > > > IE across the river so optical zoom 4x + needed.
    > > > I can only go once so have to accept whatever lighting conditions on

    that
    > > > day.
    > > > Nearly all on being sold on a 'strictly confidential' basis so I

    haven't
    > > > time to fiddle with settings - I just have to zip round very quickly

    and
    > > > without neighbours being aware.
    > > > I don't mind some fiddling on software but haven't time to become more

    > > than
    > > > amateur and rely on auto settings.
    > > > The camera must get in my briefcase (quite big but not for SLR) as I

    do
    > > not
    > > > want to have to carry a separate bag otherwise I will look conspicuous
    > > > The printed end product is A4 four sides all colour. Largest photo 19

    cm
    > > > wide but most of others 10 cms max.
    > > > It seems that whatever camera I get will be an improvement on my Kodak

    280
    > > > which as been serving me very well but it looks the biggest compromise

    > > will
    > > > be losing its 30mm wider angle lens.
    > > >
    > > > If you guys can help I would be glad.
    > > >
    > > > Phil
    > > >
    > > >

    >
     
    Phil, Dec 28, 2003
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. The Rev [MCT]
    Replies:
    42
    Views:
    1,552
  2. Clint Kent
    Replies:
    10
    Views:
    1,328
    Aardvark
    Apr 21, 2007
  3. Giuen
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    952
    Giuen
    Sep 12, 2008
  4. esm
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    618
  5. jimpooler
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    1,454
    jimpooler
    Nov 27, 2009
Loading...

Share This Page