Sony's new A7s (12mp FF) why do you need a separate "recorder" torecord HD and 4K video?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by RichA, May 27, 2014.

  1. RichA

    RichA Guest

    I don't get it, how can the camera not record the images it is taking??
     
    RichA, May 27, 2014
    #1
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  2. RichA

    Me Guest

    Me, May 27, 2014
    #2
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  3. RichA

    RichA Guest

    RichA, May 27, 2014
    #3
  4. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Tuesday, 27 May 2014 04:26:27 UTC+1, RichA wrote:
    > On Monday, May 26, 2014 8:13:50 PM UTC-4, Me wrote:
    >
    > > On 27/05/2014 11:38 a.m., RichA wrote:

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > I don't get it, how can the camera not record the images it is taking??

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > http://web.forret.com/tools/video_fps.asp?width=4096&height=2160&fps=30&space=rgb444&depth=12

    >
    >
    >
    > Wow! So much for the SD card.


    I wonder if that's why they are recording the new star wars movie on film.
    well I doubt they'd be using a SD card but perhaps the data rate is just too high to be practical.
     
    Whisky-dave, May 27, 2014
    #4
  5. RichA

    Joe Kotroczo Guest

    Re: Sony's new A7s (12mp FF) why do you need a separate "recorder"to record HD and 4K video?

    On 27/05/2014 14:44, Whisky-dave wrote:
    (...)
    > I wonder if that's why they are recording the new star wars movie on film.
    > well I doubt they'd be using a SD card but perhaps the data rate is just too high to be practical.


    No. They shoot on film to achieve a certain look. Digital cinema has a
    range ways to deal with high data rates. SSD, RAID, etc. It's not really
    an issue other than cost. And Star Wars have enough budget to shoot
    whatever format they want.
     
    Joe Kotroczo, May 27, 2014
    #5
  6. RichA

    Nick Fotis Guest

    Re: Sony's new A7s (12mp FF) why do you need a separate "recorder"to record HD and 4K video?

    On 29/05/2014 04:55, Alan Browne wrote:
    > On 2014.05.28, 18:26 , Alfred Molon wrote:
    >> In article <>, Alan Browne
    >> says...
    >>> Bring it down a notch to 4:2:2 (per the dpreview article).
    >>>
    >>> "The camera can read out its entire sensor fast enough to output 8-bit
    >>> 4:2:2 4K video over HDMI at up to 30p, without the need for line
    >>> skipping or pixel binning."
    >>>
    >>> Still - a lot of bandwidth - about 800 MB/s.

    >>
    >> Doesn't the camera use at least a bit of compression to bring down the
    >> data volume?

    >
    > I don't know. The above is a rough (from the linked calculator) about
    > how much information is produced. Compression could probably cut that by
    > about 20%, perhaps more.
    >
    > Another issue is how fast a disk drive can take a sustained write. RAID
    > arrays are used to split the bandwidth (striping). Compression would
    > help reduce that load as well.


    Another possibility would be to use SSD (solid state disks) instead of
    RAID (the latest SSD are approaching the limits of SATA interface anyway)

    N.F.
     
    Nick Fotis, May 29, 2014
    #6
  7. RichA

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:44:02 UTC+1, Joe Kotroczo wrote:
    > On 27/05/2014 14:44, Whisky-dave wrote:
    >
    > (...)
    >
    > > I wonder if that's why they are recording the new star wars movie on film.

    >
    > > well I doubt they'd be using a SD card but perhaps the data rate is just too high to be practical.

    >
    >
    >
    > No. They shoot on film to achieve a certain look.


    A certain look is that it, a look that they can't use an effect or filter for is that it ? I just hope it's not the special grain/canvas look they used on the last 4-5 seasons of Battlestar Galatica, it looked really crap on upscalled DVD players.




    > Digital cinema has a
    > range ways to deal with high data rates. SSD, RAID, etc. It's not really
    > an issue other than cost. And Star Wars have enough budget to shoot
    > whatever format they want.


    If it's not cost there must be another reason and I'm not convinced by the 'look' idea.
     
    Whisky-dave, May 29, 2014
    #7
  8. RichA

    Joe Kotroczo Guest

    Re: Sony's new A7s (12mp FF) why do you need a separate "recorder"to record HD and 4K video?

    On 29/05/2014 16:44, Whisky-dave wrote:
    > On Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:44:02 UTC+1, Joe Kotroczo wrote:
    >> On 27/05/2014 14:44, Whisky-dave wrote:
    >>
    >> (...)
    >>
    >>> I wonder if that's why they are recording the new star wars movie on film.

    >>
    >>> well I doubt they'd be using a SD card but perhaps the data rate is just too high to be practical.

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> No. They shoot on film to achieve a certain look.

    >
    > A certain look is that it, a look that they can't use an effect or filter for is that it ? I just hope it's not the special grain/canvas look they used on the last 4-5 seasons of Battlestar Galatica, it looked really crap on upscalled DVD players.


    Most of that was shot on Sony F900 and F950 camera in HDCAM.

    So: no.

    >> Digital cinema has a
    >> range ways to deal with high data rates. SSD, RAID, etc. It's not really
    >> an issue other than cost. And Star Wars have enough budget to shoot
    >> whatever format they want.

    >
    > If it's not cost there must be another reason and I'm not convinced by the 'look' idea.


    <http://www.indiewire.com/article/10-reasons-why-filmmakers-should-shoot-film-according-to-kodak>

    <http://www.motion.kodak.com/motion/Customers/Productions/index.htm>
     
    Joe Kotroczo, Jun 2, 2014
    #8
  9. RichA

    J. Clarke Guest

    Re: Sony's new A7s (12mp FF) why do you need a separate "recorder" to record HD and 4K video?

    In article <>, says...
    >
    > On 29/05/2014 16:44, Whisky-dave wrote:
    > > On Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:44:02 UTC+1, Joe Kotroczo wrote:
    > >> On 27/05/2014 14:44, Whisky-dave wrote:
    > >>
    > >> (...)
    > >>
    > >>> I wonder if that's why they are recording the new star wars movie on film.
    > >>
    > >>> well I doubt they'd be using a SD card but perhaps the data rate is just too high to be practical.
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> No. They shoot on film to achieve a certain look.

    > >
    > > A certain look is that it, a look that they can't use an effect or filter for is that it ? I just hope it's not the special grain/canvas look they used on the last 4-5 seasons of Battlestar Galatica, it looked really crap on upscalled DVD players.

    >
    > Most of that was shot on Sony F900 and F950 camera in HDCAM.
    >
    > So: no.
    >
    > >> Digital cinema has a
    > >> range ways to deal with high data rates. SSD, RAID, etc. It's not really
    > >> an issue other than cost. And Star Wars have enough budget to shoot
    > >> whatever format they want.

    > >
    > > If it's not cost there must be another reason and I'm not convinced by the 'look' idea.

    >
    > <http://www.indiewire.com/article/10-reasons-why-filmmakers-should-shoot-film-according-to-kodak>
    >
    > <http://www.motion.kodak.com/motion/Customers/Productions/index.htm>


    The top grossing movie of all time was shot on digital and won a "Best
    Cinematography" Oscar. Here's a list of movies shot using Red digital
    cinema cameras: <http://www.red.com/shot-on-red?genre=All>. And anybody
    who thinks that digital is only for high end movies needs to see
    "Monsters", which had a $500,000 budget. Anybody who thinks that there's
    a technological obstacle to making feature movies using digital just
    hasn't been paying attention.
     
    J. Clarke, Jun 2, 2014
    #9
  10. RichA

    Robert Coe Guest

    Re: Sony's new A7s (12mp FF) why do you need a separate "recorder" to record HD and 4K video?

    On Mon, 02 Jun 2014 08:03:46 +0200, Joe Kotroczo <> wrote:
    : On 29/05/2014 16:44, Whisky-dave wrote:
    : > On Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:44:02 UTC+1, Joe Kotroczo wrote:
    : >> On 27/05/2014 14:44, Whisky-dave wrote:
    : >>
    : >> (...)
    : >>
    : >>> I wonder if that's why they are recording the new star wars movie on film.
    : >>
    : >>> well I doubt they'd be using a SD card but perhaps the data rate is just too high to be practical.
    : >>
    : >>
    : >>
    : >> No. They shoot on film to achieve a certain look.
    : >
    : > A certain look is that it, a look that they can't use an effect or filter for is that it ? I just hope it's not the special grain/canvas look they used on the last 4-5 seasons of Battlestar Galatica, it looked really crap on upscalled DVD players.
    :
    : Most of that was shot on Sony F900 and F950 camera in HDCAM.
    :
    : So: no.
    :
    : >> Digital cinema has a
    : >> range ways to deal with high data rates. SSD, RAID, etc. It's not really
    : >> an issue other than cost. And Star Wars have enough budget to shoot
    : >> whatever format they want.
    : >
    : > If it's not cost there must be another reason and I'm not convinced by the 'look' idea.
    :
    : <http://www.indiewire.com/article/10-reasons-why-filmmakers-should-shoot-film-according-to-kodak>

    The comical thing about that list is that half of the ten are more compelling
    as reasons *not* to use film. The "trust" argument, as they state it, is
    particularly absurd.

    Another comic touch is that the accompanying picture of the panel participants
    is out of focus and needs a major white-balance correction. Perhaps the point
    is that it wasn't shot on film.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Jun 7, 2014
    #10
  11. RichA

    Robert Coe Guest

    Re: Sony's new A7s (12mp FF) why do you need a separate "recorder" to record HD and 4K video?

    On Wed, 28 May 2014 21:55:01 -0400, Alan Browne
    <> wrote:
    : On 2014.05.28, 18:26 , Alfred Molon wrote:
    : > In article <>, Alan Browne
    : > says...
    : >> Bring it down a notch to 4:2:2 (per the dpreview article).
    : >>
    : >> "The camera can read out its entire sensor fast enough to output 8-bit
    : >> 4:2:2 4K video over HDMI at up to 30p, without the need for line
    : >> skipping or pixel binning."
    : >>
    : >> Still - a lot of bandwidth - about 800 MB/s.
    : >
    : > Doesn't the camera use at least a bit of compression to bring down the
    : > data volume?
    :
    : I don't know. The above is a rough (from the linked calculator) about
    : how much information is produced. Compression could probably cut that
    : by about 20%, perhaps more.
    :
    : Another issue is how fast a disk drive can take a sustained write. RAID
    : arrays are used to split the bandwidth (striping). Compression would
    : help reduce that load as well.
    :
    : Redundancy would drive the disk number up (double or triple). RAID
    : striping increases complexity (and processing at the storage end too, I
    : guess).

    It's difficult to generalize, because there are so many accepted RAID formats.
    But the most efficient layout provides single-error-correcting redundancy with
    a space penalty of about 16%. The penalty in processing speed is harder to
    calculate, but there will surely be one.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Jun 7, 2014
    #11
  12. RichA

    J. Clarke Guest

    Re: Sony's new A7s (12mp FF) why do you need a separate "recorder" to record HD and 4K video?

    In article <>,
    says...
    >
    > On Mon, 02 Jun 2014 08:03:46 +0200, Joe Kotroczo <> wrote:
    > : On 29/05/2014 16:44, Whisky-dave wrote:
    > : > On Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:44:02 UTC+1, Joe Kotroczo wrote:
    > : >> On 27/05/2014 14:44, Whisky-dave wrote:
    > : >>
    > : >> (...)
    > : >>
    > : >>> I wonder if that's why they are recording the new star wars movie on film.
    > : >>
    > : >>> well I doubt they'd be using a SD card but perhaps the data rate is just too high to be practical.
    > : >>
    > : >>
    > : >>
    > : >> No. They shoot on film to achieve a certain look.
    > : >
    > : > A certain look is that it, a look that they can't use an effect or filter for is that it ? I just hope it's not the special grain/canvas look they used on the last 4-5 seasons of Battlestar Galatica, it looked really crap on upscalled DVD players.
    > :
    > : Most of that was shot on Sony F900 and F950 camera in HDCAM.
    > :
    > : So: no.
    > :
    > : >> Digital cinema has a
    > : >> range ways to deal with high data rates. SSD, RAID, etc. It's not really
    > : >> an issue other than cost. And Star Wars have enough budget to shoot
    > : >> whatever format they want.
    > : >
    > : > If it's not cost there must be another reason and I'm not convinced by the 'look' idea.
    > :
    > : <http://www.indiewire.com/article/10-reasons-why-filmmakers-should-shoot-film-according-to-kodak>
    >
    > The comical thing about that list is that half of the ten are more compelling
    > as reasons *not* to use film. The "trust" argument, as they state it, is
    > particularly absurd.


    Actually that's the one that struck me as most valid. Digital makes it
    easier for the Powers That Be to micromanage the production, whether
    they know what they're doing or not.

    > Another comic touch is that the accompanying picture of the panel participants
    > is out of focus and needs a major white-balance correction. Perhaps the point
    > is that it wasn't shot on film.
    >
    > Bob
     
    J. Clarke, Jun 7, 2014
    #12
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