Sony R1 - update soon?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by aniramca@gmail.com, Aug 21, 2007.

  1. Guest

    Ever since someone in this newsgroup mentioned about this camera, and
    subsequently went to a photo shop to see one, I am very much intrigued
    by this camera. Dpreview gallery for this camera shows a very colorful
    photos (to my standard). Other cameras is generally "bland" (except
    for Lumix). I need to hear more input from others who owns or uses
    this camera. I consider the lens is the camera's windows to the world.
    And the R1 has exceptionally big lens! And it is not just big, but
    this "wow" big!
    Will Sony come with a new model or update soon, or will it be
    discontinued? I believe that not very many people look into this
    camera (too bulky and expensive), and they end up with DSLR instead.
    As I am looking for a P&S camera with larger than regular sensor (not
    a fancy changeable lenses), this seems to be the only one which is
    available in the market now. Will Panasonic Lumix introduces new,
    larger sensor in their new model to replace the FZ50? I also like to
    use cameras which is not very commonly used by many others. It just
    somehow makes me more special!
    Thanks for the info.
     
    , Aug 21, 2007
    #1
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  2. Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > Ever since someone in this newsgroup mentioned about this camera, and
    > subsequently went to a photo shop to see one, I am very much intrigued
    > by this camera. Dpreview gallery for this camera shows a very colorful
    > photos (to my standard). Other cameras is generally "bland" (except
    > for Lumix). I need to hear more input from others who owns or uses
    > this camera. I consider the lens is the camera's windows to the world.
    > And the R1 has exceptionally big lens! And it is not just big, but
    > this "wow" big!
    > Will Sony come with a new model or update soon, or will it be
    > discontinued?


    Maybe not, because they can make more money by selling DSLRs and lenses.
    By the way, the Olympus E510 is a better camera and has live preview.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 50X0, 7070, 8080, E3X0, E4X0 and E5X0 forum at
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
     
    Alfred Molon, Aug 21, 2007
    #2
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  3. ASAAR Guest

    On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:01:20 -0700, wrote:

    > I also like to use cameras which is not very commonly used by
    > many others. It just somehow makes me more special!


    Consider Sigma's cameras. They're really 'special'. :)
     
    ASAAR, Aug 21, 2007
    #3
  4. wrote:
    > Ever since someone in this newsgroup mentioned about this camera, and
    > subsequently went to a photo shop to see one, I am very much intrigued
    > by this camera. Dpreview gallery for this camera shows a very colorful
    > photos (to my standard). Other cameras is generally "bland" (except
    > for Lumix). I need to hear more input from others who owns or uses
    > this camera. I consider the lens is the camera's windows to the world.
    > And the R1 has exceptionally big lens! And it is not just big, but
    > this "wow" big!
    > Will Sony come with a new model or update soon, or will it be
    > discontinued? I believe that not very many people look into this
    > camera (too bulky and expensive), and they end up with DSLR instead.
    > As I am looking for a P&S camera with larger than regular sensor (not
    > a fancy changeable lenses), this seems to be the only one which is
    > available in the market now. Will Panasonic Lumix introduces new,
    > larger sensor in their new model to replace the FZ50? I also like to
    > use cameras which is not very commonly used by many others. It just
    > somehow makes me more special!
    > Thanks for the info.


    It has been discontinued. A current very high image quality non-DSLR
    is the Ricoh Caplio GX100.

    --
    Chris Malcolm DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
     
    Chris Malcolm, Aug 23, 2007
    #4
  5. Chris Malcolm wrote:
    []
    > It has been discontinued. A current very high image quality non-DSLR
    > is the Ricoh Caplio GX100.


    ... which has a much smaller sensor than the Sony R1

    GX100 - "1/1.75" - 40 sq.mm
    R1 - "APS-C" - 310sq.mm

    Anyone cosidering the GX100 might like to read the write-up at DP Review:

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricohgx100/page14.asp

    I don't think it's in the same class as the Sony.

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Aug 24, 2007
    #5
  6. David J Taylor <-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote:
    > Chris Malcolm wrote:
    > []
    >> It has been discontinued. A current very high image quality non-DSLR
    >> is the Ricoh Caplio GX100.


    > .. which has a much smaller sensor than the Sony R1


    > GX100 - "1/1.75" - 40 sq.mm
    > R1 - "APS-C" - 310sq.mm


    > Anyone cosidering the GX100 might like to read the write-up at DP Review:


    > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricohgx100/page14.asp


    > I don't think it's in the same class as the Sony.


    Having read the new review I have to agree. So is the discontinued
    Sony the only thing in its market niche of non-DSLR with big sensor
    and high quality optics?

    --
    Chris Malcolm DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
     
    Chris Malcolm, Aug 24, 2007
    #6
  7. Chris Malcolm wrote:
    []
    > Having read the new review I have to agree. So is the discontinued
    > Sony the only thing in its market niche of non-DSLR with big sensor
    > and high quality optics?


    There are some rangefinder cameras, I believe. Interchangble lens.

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Aug 24, 2007
    #7
  8. dj_nme Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > Chris Malcolm wrote:
    > []
    >
    >>Having read the new review I have to agree. So is the discontinued
    >>Sony the only thing in its market niche of non-DSLR with big sensor
    >>and high quality optics?

    >
    >
    > There are some rangefinder cameras, I believe. Interchangble lens.
    >
    > David


    There is noe other potential camera in this class.
    Sigma has "threatened" to come out with the DP1, 1.7x crop foveon sensor
    with fixed 28mm (35mm equivalent) lens for quite a while.
    There does not seem to be any word on whether it will actually hit the
    market at any point.
    It may yet turn out to be vaporware.
     
    dj_nme, Aug 25, 2007
    #8
  9. Cynicor Guest

    dj_nme wrote:
    > David J Taylor wrote:
    >> Chris Malcolm wrote:
    >> []
    >>
    >>> Having read the new review I have to agree. So is the discontinued
    >>> Sony the only thing in its market niche of non-DSLR with big sensor
    >>> and high quality optics?

    >>
    >>
    >> There are some rangefinder cameras, I believe. Interchangble lens.
    >>
    >> David

    >
    > There is noe other potential camera in this class.
    > Sigma has "threatened" to come out with the DP1, 1.7x crop foveon sensor
    > with fixed 28mm (35mm equivalent) lens for quite a while.
    > There does not seem to be any word on whether it will actually hit the
    > market at any point.
    > It may yet turn out to be vaporware.


    Technically, if it's Foveon it's 1/3 vaporware but it produces pictures
    JUST AS GOOD as other manufacturers' full vaporware.
     
    Cynicor, Aug 25, 2007
    #9
  10. dj_nme wrote:
    > David J Taylor wrote:
    >> Chris Malcolm wrote:
    >> []
    >>
    >>> Having read the new review I have to agree. So is the discontinued
    >>> Sony the only thing in its market niche of non-DSLR with big sensor
    >>> and high quality optics?

    >>
    >>
    >> There are some rangefinder cameras, I believe. Interchangble lens.
    >>
    >> David

    >
    > There is noe other potential camera in this class.

    []

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/leicam8/

    27 x 18mm sensor.

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Aug 25, 2007
    #10
  11. frederick Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > dj_nme wrote:
    >> David J Taylor wrote:
    >>> Chris Malcolm wrote:
    >>> []
    >>>
    >>>> Having read the new review I have to agree. So is the discontinued
    >>>> Sony the only thing in its market niche of non-DSLR with big sensor
    >>>> and high quality optics?
    >>>
    >>> There are some rangefinder cameras, I believe. Interchangble lens.
    >>>
    >>> David

    >> There is noe other potential camera in this class.

    > []
    >
    > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/leicam8/
    >
    > 27 x 18mm sensor.
    >
    > David
    >
    >

    Lol.
    If black was purple, then that would be the perfect point
    and shoot camera to find growing on a tree by the Big Rock
    Candy Mountain.
     
    frederick, Aug 25, 2007
    #11
  12. Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <46cf8e48$0$27797$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
    01.iinet.net.au>, dj_nme says...

    > There is noe other potential camera in this class.


    Define then "this class" please:

    1. camera with large sensor and live preview: several DSRLs exist now:
    Olympus E330, E410, E510 and the new Nikon and Canon
    2. camera with large sensor and no mirror: the Leica rangefinders exist
    3. camera with large sensor and no interchangeable lenses: yes, it's
    only the R1, but not being able to change the lens is actually a
    disadvantage.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 50X0, 7070, 8080, E3X0, E4X0 and E5X0 forum at
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
     
    Alfred Molon, Aug 25, 2007
    #12
  13. On Aug 21, 10:01 am, wrote:
    > Sony R1 - update soon?


    Sony R1's update is Sigma DP1. Period.
     
    Beladi Nasralla, Aug 25, 2007
    #13
  14. On Aug 25, 6:20 pm, Alfred Molon <> wrote:

    > 3. camera with large sensor and no interchangeable lenses: yes, it's
    > only the R1, but not being able to change the lens is actually a
    > disadvantage.


    Gee, I calculated that I did 90% of my shots in wide with my Pana LX1,
    so that Sigma DP1 would be al'right.

    It is a different matter altogether that in the past 3 months I lost
    interest to photography...
     
    Beladi Nasralla, Aug 25, 2007
    #14
  15. Alfred Molon <> wrote:
    > In article <46cf8e48$0$27797$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
    > 01.iinet.net.au>, dj_nme says...


    >> There is noe other potential camera in this class.


    > Define then "this class" please:


    > 1. camera with large sensor and live preview: several DSRLs exist now:
    > Olympus E330, E410, E510 and the new Nikon and Canon
    > 2. camera with large sensor and no mirror: the Leica rangefinders exist
    > 3. camera with large sensor and no interchangeable lenses: yes, it's
    > only the R1, but not being able to change the lens is actually a
    > disadvantage.


    You can change the lens, just not as much. Sony offer a tele extension
    and a wide angle extension and a macro extension. The fixed lens is
    also not an unalloyed disadvantage, since it buys you more lens
    quality at a cheaper cost than you could get by using a standard
    exchangeable lens mount.

    --
    Chris Malcolm DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
     
    Chris Malcolm, Aug 26, 2007
    #15
  16. dj_nme Guest

    Chris Malcolm wrote:
    > Alfred Molon <> wrote:
    >
    >>In article <46cf8e48$0$27797$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
    >>01.iinet.net.au>, dj_nme says...

    >
    >
    >>>There is noe other potential camera in this class.

    >
    >
    >>Define then "this class" please:

    >
    >
    >>1. camera with large sensor and live preview: several DSRLs exist now:
    >>Olympus E330, E410, E510 and the new Nikon and Canon
    >>2. camera with large sensor and no mirror: the Leica rangefinders exist
    >>3. camera with large sensor and no interchangeable lenses: yes, it's
    >>only the R1, but not being able to change the lens is actually a
    >>disadvantage.

    >
    >
    > You can change the lens, just not as much. Sony offer a tele extension
    > and a wide angle extension and a macro extension. The fixed lens is
    > also not an unalloyed disadvantage, since it buys you more lens
    > quality at a cheaper cost than you could get by using a standard
    > exchangeable lens mount.


    Perhaps for the 24-120mm equiv lens, but the weight and bulk of the
    camera made me wonder why it would have been considered before a Canon
    350D or Pentax ist-DS (both contemporaries of the DSC-R1 and also both
    much lighter with their 18-55mm zoom kit lens).
    The price also wasn't that much less than a either of the DSLR cameras I
    mentioned, so for a small amount extra a DSLR camera which has
    interchangable lenses seemed like a much better idea.
    It's too big, heavy and also only has too small a zoom range to really
    compete evenly with the ultrazoom EVF digicams, especially the Panasonic
    Lumix FZ20 and FZ30 and the Canon G6 and G7.
    It's neither an EVF super-zoom lens (which I believe is a must if it's a
    fixed lens design) digicam nor a DSLR camera, despite the large sensor.
    Perhaps it was this sort of "half-heartedness" of the DSC-R1 design that
    meant that it was never updated to a DSC-R2?
    I would also imagine that the aquisition of the Konica-Minolta DSLR
    system (rebadged as the Alpha) was another nail in it's coffin.
     
    dj_nme, Aug 26, 2007
    #16
  17. Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <>, Chris Malcolm says...

    > You can change the lens, just not as much. Sony offer a tele extension
    > and a wide angle extension and a macro extension.


    The 1.7x teleconverter is a 1Kg thing which is only usable at the tele
    end of the zoom range, otherwise you get vignetting. You also need tge
    vad ra adapter to connect it to the R1, ending with a 2Kg thing, usable
    only around 200mm.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 50X0, 7070, 8080, E3X0, E4X0 and E5X0 forum at
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
     
    Alfred Molon, Aug 26, 2007
    #17
  18. dj_nme <> wrote:
    > Chris Malcolm wrote:
    >> Alfred Molon <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>In article <46cf8e48$0$27797$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
    >>>01.iinet.net.au>, dj_nme says...

    >>
    >>
    >>>>There is noe other potential camera in this class.

    >>
    >>
    >>>Define then "this class" please:

    >>
    >>
    >>>1. camera with large sensor and live preview: several DSRLs exist now:
    >>>Olympus E330, E410, E510 and the new Nikon and Canon
    >>>2. camera with large sensor and no mirror: the Leica rangefinders exist
    >>>3. camera with large sensor and no interchangeable lenses: yes, it's
    >>>only the R1, but not being able to change the lens is actually a
    >>>disadvantage.

    >>
    >>
    >> You can change the lens, just not as much. Sony offer a tele extension
    >> and a wide angle extension and a macro extension. The fixed lens is
    >> also not an unalloyed disadvantage, since it buys you more lens
    >> quality at a cheaper cost than you could get by using a standard
    >> exchangeable lens mount.


    > Perhaps for the 24-120mm equiv lens, but the weight and bulk of the
    > camera made me wonder why it would have been considered before a Canon
    > 350D or Pentax ist-DS (both contemporaries of the DSC-R1 and also both
    > much lighter with their 18-55mm zoom kit lens).


    The lens quality!

    > The price also wasn't that much less than a either of the DSLR cameras I
    > mentioned, so for a small amount extra a DSLR camera which has
    > interchangable lenses seemed like a much better idea.


    If lens quality within that budget wasn't an issue.

    > It's too big, heavy and also only has too small a zoom range to really
    > compete evenly with the ultrazoom EVF digicams, especially the Panasonic
    > Lumix FZ20 and FZ30 and the Canon G6 and G7.
    > It's neither an EVF super-zoom lens (which I believe is a must if it's a
    > fixed lens design) digicam nor a DSLR camera, despite the large sensor.
    > Perhaps it was this sort of "half-heartedness" of the DSC-R1 design that
    > meant that it was never updated to a DSC-R2?


    You've probably well described the reaction of the market to the
    camera. In their single minded pursuit of a specific concept Sony's
    designers produced something which only half belonged to each of the
    major marketing categories.

    > I would also imagine that the aquisition of the Konica-Minolta DSLR
    > system (rebadged as the Alpha) was another nail in it's coffin.


    Yes, an R2 could have been seen as unwelcome competition.

    --
    Chris Malcolm DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
     
    Chris Malcolm, Aug 27, 2007
    #18
  19. Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <>, Chris Malcolm says...

    > You've probably well described the reaction of the market to the
    > camera. In their single minded pursuit of a specific concept Sony's
    > designers produced something which only half belonged to each of the
    > major marketing categories.


    Would be great to have a camera like the R1 with a 10x instead of just
    5x lens, but then the lens quality would have suffered and the camera
    would have been subtantially heavier than it already is.

    > > I would also imagine that the aquisition of the Konica-Minolta DSLR
    > > system (rebadged as the Alpha) was another nail in it's coffin.

    >
    > Yes, an R2 could have been seen as unwelcome competition.


    That's probably why Sony has crippled the R1 with several limitations:

    - RAW file size of > 20MB and slow write times to CF, forcing you to buy
    expensive MS cards
    - long write times and essentially inexistent buffer (after two RAWs
    it's full and you have to wait 4 seconds until you can shoot again)
    - weird flash hotshoe: either buy a simple but still not cheap Sony
    flash with no swiveling head or buy a better Metz unit which however has
    to be connected with a cable to the R1 and still isn't fully functional
    - sensor with not so excellent noise performance; you're limited to
    ISO400 if you care about image quality
    - weak AF system, slow in low light and unable to focus on moving
    objects (kids) in low light: Sony could have used a phase detection AF
    system
    - camera JPEGs with poor quality: for good results you must shoot RAW
    - unability to define a set of default settings with which the camera
    restarts when you switch it on: the R1 starts with exactly the same
    settings it had when you switched it off. If you set it to ISO 800 to
    cope with an emergency, all subsequent images will be at noisy ISO 800
    if you forget to set it back to a lower ISO; if you set it to manual
    focus, all subsequent shots will be out of focus unless you remember to
    set it to AF.

    In summary, this is a camera with which you can get excellent results,
    if you know how to use it and what its limitations are.

    In terms of usability and performance a DSLR such as the Olympus E510
    (with live preview) will easily outperform the R1 by a large margin,
    once the Zuiko 12-60 (=24-120mm equiv.) lens is available. Still the R1
    is a bargain at its price level.

    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 50X0, 7070, 8080, E3X0, E4X0 and E5X0 forum at
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    http://myolympus.org/ photo sharing site
     
    Alfred Molon, Aug 27, 2007
    #19
  20. dj_nme Guest

    Chris Malcolm wrote:
    > dj_nme <> wrote:

    <snip>
    >>Perhaps for the 24-120mm equiv lens, but the weight and bulk of the
    >>camera made me wonder why it would have been considered before a Canon
    >>350D or Pentax ist-DS (both contemporaries of the DSC-R1 and also both
    >>much lighter with their 18-55mm zoom kit lens).

    >
    > The lens quality!


    Th 18-55mm lenses made by Pentax and Canon aren't slouches either, but
    the extra 30mm of zoom on the DSC-R1 does make it quite and achievement.

    >>The price also wasn't that much less than a either of the DSLR cameras I
    >>mentioned, so for a small amount extra a DSLR camera which has
    >>interchangable lenses seemed like a much better idea.

    >
    > If lens quality within that budget wasn't an issue.


    The difference in price was very small.
    In fact, ISTR that the *ist-DS with 18-55mm lens was actually cheaper
    than the Sony DSC-R1!

    >>It's too big, heavy and also only has too small a zoom range to really
    >>compete evenly with the ultrazoom EVF digicams, especially the Panasonic
    >>Lumix FZ20 and FZ30 and the Canon G6 and G7.
    >>It's neither an EVF super-zoom lens (which I believe is a must if it's a
    >>fixed lens design) digicam nor a DSLR camera, despite the large sensor.
    >>Perhaps it was this sort of "half-heartedness" of the DSC-R1 design that
    >>meant that it was never updated to a DSC-R2?

    >
    > You've probably well described the reaction of the market to the
    > camera. In their single minded pursuit of a specific concept Sony's
    > designers produced something which only half belonged to each of the
    > major marketing categories.


    Also as Alfred Molon pointed out in his reply, the DSC-R1 was hampered
    by quite a few problems that when I looked at it side-by-side with it's
    EVF digicam and DSLR competitors as though that the DSC-R1 seemed like
    it had been "rushed out the door".

    >>I would also imagine that the aquisition of the Konica-Minolta DSLR
    >>system (rebadged as the Alpha) was another nail in it's coffin.

    >
    >
    > Yes, an R2 could have been seen as unwelcome competition.


    I have the sneaking suspicion that it was intended to have a longer
    development time and possibly could have been altered slightly to be a
    much better digicam than what it was released as.
    If the faults that Alfred pointed out were fixed, the basic design could
    have been turned into an EVIL (electronic viewfinder interchangeable
    lens) digicam with the addition of an EOS styled lensmount with lots of
    electronic contacts for lens-to-body communications.
    The only problem with this idea is that the shutter is built into the
    lens, but there are MF (120 film) SLR cameras which use in-lens shutter
    lenses and for a premium product may have been acceptable.
     
    dj_nme, Aug 27, 2007
    #20
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