Sony F717 vs. Canon 10D- Need evaluation help

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by DTRT227, Sep 28, 2003.

  1. DTRT227

    DTRT227 Guest

    Hi folks.
    I have read through a lot of your thoughts on my top 3 camera choices I am
    looking at the Canon 10D Rebel, the Nikon 5700, and the Sony F717. I am not
    adverse to changing elnses, and I really want the ability to use it on our ski
    trips for scenery, and for the outdoor events that make up most of my
    photography. The costs of the three are reachable, and now I simply want to
    know which of my top two is the one that makes more sense.

    I definitely want a decent ability for a wide angle (scenery/landscapes, as
    well as group pictures) and telephoto ability. I like what I have read
    reagrding shutter speeds and some other salient points, but am trying to come
    up with a number one choice and then really evaluating it versus a standard
    SLR. Any suggestions/input would be appreciated.

    David
     
    DTRT227, Sep 28, 2003
    #1
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  2. DTRT227

    Todd Walker Guest

    In article <>, dtrt227
    @aol.com says...
    > Hi folks.
    > I have read through a lot of your thoughts on my top 3 camera choices I am
    > looking at the Canon 10D Rebel, the Nikon 5700, and the Sony F717. I am not
    > adverse to changing elnses, and I really want the ability to use it on our ski
    > trips for scenery, and for the outdoor events that make up most of my
    > photography. The costs of the three are reachable, and now I simply want to
    > know which of my top two is the one that makes more sense.
    >
    > I definitely want a decent ability for a wide angle (scenery/landscapes, as
    > well as group pictures) and telephoto ability. I like what I have read
    > reagrding shutter speeds and some other salient points, but am trying to come
    > up with a number one choice and then really evaluating it versus a standard
    > SLR. Any suggestions/input would be appreciated.
    >
    > David
    >


    The 10D isn't in the same class as the 717 and the 5700. If you want the
    best picture quality and most creative control, get the 10D. If you want
    to shoot in available light with very low noise, get the 10D. If you
    want a possible zoom range of around 25mm all the way up to almost
    4000mm (which of course would cost more than many houses, but hey it's
    there if you need it in the form of a 1200mm lens and 2x teleconverter,)
    buy the 10D. If you want lightning quick shot to shot speed and 3fps
    burst rate, get the 10D. If you want NO shutter lag, get the 10D. Need I
    go on???

    --
    ________________________________
    Todd Walker
    http://twalker.d2g.com
    Canon 10D:
    http://twalker.d2g.com/canon10d
    My Digital Photography Weblog:
    http://twalker.d2g.com/dpblog.htm
    _________________________________
     
    Todd Walker, Sep 28, 2003
    #2
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  3. There is no 10D Rebel. There is the 10D or the 300D/Digital Rebel. Get the 10D if you can. The
    Sony717 is a very nice camera but is nowhere near even being in the same league as the 10D. Both
    can produce lovely images but the Sony handles like a big lumpy point 'n' shoot digicam while the
    10D handles just like any other EOS SLR.

    Shutter lag:
    A friend of mine brought a 717 to Le Mans earlier this year for the 24 hour race. I brought my 10D.
    I got shots with race cars in them. He got empty track.

    --
    Colm


    "DTRT227" <> wrote in message news:...
    : Hi folks.
    : I have read through a lot of your thoughts on my top 3 camera choices I am
    : looking at the Canon 10D Rebel, the Nikon 5700, and the Sony F717.
     
    Colm Gallagher, Sep 28, 2003
    #3
  4. DTRT227

    Wayne J Guest

    "DTRT227" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi folks.
    > I have read through a lot of your thoughts on my top 3 camera choices I am
    > looking at the Canon 10D Rebel, the Nikon 5700, and the Sony F717. I am

    not
    > adverse to changing elnses, and I really want the ability to use it on our

    ski
    > trips for scenery, and for the outdoor events that make up most of my
    > photography. The costs of the three are reachable, and now I simply want

    to
    > know which of my top two is the one that makes more sense.


    Aside from price your question comes down to compactness vs. quality. The
    10d/Rebel is an obviously better camera in every area except size. If the
    10d/Rebel and lens kit is not too large for you and you can afford a high
    quality 5x zoom and a wide angle for the 10d, then choose the 10d/Rebel. I
    would think that a Canon rebel might be your first choice. It's smaller and
    lighter than the 10d but lacking in a few features that you may or may not
    desire. It's more comparable in size to the 717.

    I would like to point out that there is a large price difference between a
    717 and a Rebel with the lenses you need. No matter how you look at it, the
    Rebel with 2 decent lenses that cover the 717 range is at least 3 times the
    price of the 717.

    Wayne
     
    Wayne J, Sep 28, 2003
    #4
  5. DTRT227

    gr Guest

    "Colm Gallagher" <> wrote
    > There is no 10D Rebel. There is the 10D or the 300D/Digital Rebel. Get the

    10D if you can. The
    > Sony717 is a very nice camera but is nowhere near even being in the same

    league as the 10D. Both
    > can produce lovely images but the Sony handles like a big lumpy point 'n'

    shoot digicam while the
    > 10D handles just like any other EOS SLR.


    If price is no option, then get the 10D. But expect to pay 3 or 4 times the
    price of the 717 by the time you get useful lenses for the 10D. Also, there
    are some things that a dSLR can't do, that a digicam can, such as histogram
    preview when composing shots. dSLRs won't do movies either, which may not be
    important most of the time but it can be a handy feature once in awhile.

    > Shutter lag:
    > A friend of mine brought a 717 to Le Mans earlier this year for the 24

    hour race. I brought my 10D.
    > I got shots with race cars in them. He got empty track.


    24-hour lag! Wow... that is bad! ;-)
     
    gr, Sep 28, 2003
    #5
  6. DTRT227

    DTRT227 Guest

    Thanks to all of you for your help. Very intelligent responses (after seeing
    some posts on the group I was concerned what I would get.) I will make the 10D
    my first choice as a result of your valued comments, and now simply need to ask
    digital or film. Thanks again for helping a guy out.
     
    DTRT227, Sep 28, 2003
    #6
  7. DTRT227

    Godfrey Guest

    I have both. I've been shooting with Sony F7x7 cameras for almost two years
    and find them to be excellent, superior to most other fixed lens cameras in
    the price class. For 39mm to 190mm work, at ISO 100 in particular, and with
    close up lenses and IR-pass filters, an F717 presents a tremendous amount of
    capability for the money and can do a huge amount of work. The upcoming F828
    should only improve upon this, with a wider wide angle and slightly longer
    telephoto as well as a big increase in pixel resolution. And the price is
    very reasonable... An F717 system plus spare battery, lens hood, 1G Memory
    Stick PRO card, case, a few filters and close up lenses, and the external
    flash is complete for under $1500.

    I purchased a 10D system to step beyond what was achievable with the F717,
    for the lens interchangeability and low light-low noise performance, for
    access to longer focal lengths, for the excellent Canon flash system, and for
    the option of RAW post-processing capabilities. It achieves all of these
    goals handily ... I am satisfied with it. On the other hand, it is a FAR more
    complex camera system to learn and FAR more expensive. My kit consists of
    body, two batteries, battery grip, tripod mount, 20/2.8, 50/1.4, 100/2 lenses
    with hoods, remote release with timer functions, 420EX flash unit, 1G Sandisk
    Ultra CF card, and card reader. (58mm lens attachments interchange between
    the Sony and the Canon's 50 and 100 lenses.) In other words, I've matched the
    Sony F717 kit in terms of accessories, approximate lens speed and field of
    view capabilities (in three discrete steps). This kit has cost me $3500 so
    far. To go beyond the Sony in terms of lens capabilities (I count speed and
    build quality as important as focal length) will require more money for wider
    and longer lenses, macro lenses. And I'm still learning how to get the most
    out of the camera, it is not a good performer for IR photography and cannot
    do movies, etc.

    So think carefully when you look at this equipment. Both these cameras are
    excellent but each has its plusses and minuses. The heavy downside of the
    DSLR route is system cost, the heavy downside of any prosumer class fixed
    lens camera is the extent of its limitations.

    Godfrey


    On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:04:57 -0700, DTRT227 wrote
    (in message <>):

    > Hi folks.
    > I have read through a lot of your thoughts on my top 3 camera choices I am
    > looking at the Canon 10D Rebel, the Nikon 5700, and the Sony F717. I am not
    > adverse to changing elnses, and I really want the ability to use it on our
    > ski
    > trips for scenery, and for the outdoor events that make up most of my
    > photography. The costs of the three are reachable, and now I simply want to
    > know which of my top two is the one that makes more sense.
    >
    > I definitely want a decent ability for a wide angle (scenery/landscapes, as
    > well as group pictures) and telephoto ability. I like what I have read
    > reagrding shutter speeds and some other salient points, but am trying to come
    > up with a number one choice and then really evaluating it versus a standard
    > SLR. Any suggestions/input would be appreciated.
    >
    > David
     
    Godfrey, Sep 28, 2003
    #7
  8. DTRT227

    Mustafa Krap Guest

    > Shutter lag:
    > A friend of mine brought a 717 to Le Mans earlier this year for the 24

    hour race. I brought my 10D.
    > I got shots with race cars in them. He got empty track.


    I think this has less to do with shutter lag and more to do with the
    photographer. You should be able to get decent results at this sort of event
    with any half decent point & shoot using the age old techniques of pre-focus
    and panning and making sure you get set up in the best location possible,
    admittedly it would be much easier with a digital slr.

    Rob.
     
    Mustafa Krap, Sep 28, 2003
    #8
  9. DTRT227

    Mainlander Guest

    In article <>, dtrt227
    @aol.com says...
    > Hi folks.
    > I have read through a lot of your thoughts on my top 3 camera choices I am
    > looking at the Canon 10D Rebel, the Nikon 5700, and the Sony F717. I am not
    > adverse to changing elnses, and I really want the ability to use it on our ski
    > trips for scenery, and for the outdoor events that make up most of my
    > photography. The costs of the three are reachable, and now I simply want to
    > know which of my top two is the one that makes more sense.


    The F717 is soon to be superseded by the F828.
     
    Mainlander, Sep 29, 2003
    #9
  10. DTRT227

    Guest Guest

    > The 10d/Rebel is an obviously better camera in every area except size.

    Not so!

    The 10d/Rebel can't do live preview - you have to use the viewfinder for
    framing.
    The 10d/Rebel doesn't have tilt viewfinder for framing at funny angles
    The 10d/Rebel has much greater DOF (can be good, can be bad dependant on
    situation).
    The 10d/Rebel can't do video.
    The 10d/Rebel doesn't have nightshot and nightframing.


    If the final image quality is paramount - go with the 10D/Rebel. If any of
    the conveniences the Sony has are important to you, go with the Sony - or at
    least wait and see how the Sony 828 shapes up in production. The thing about
    these various gizmos on the Sony is that you won't know you want them if you
    have never used them before. Once you have used them, you probably wouldn't
    want to give them up.
     
    Guest, Sep 29, 2003
    #10
  11. DTRT227

    Wayne J Guest

    "<Enter Your Full Name>" <> wrote in message
    news:bl90bg$5e$...
    > > The 10d/Rebel is an obviously better camera in every area except size.

    >
    > Not so!
    >
    > The 10d/Rebel can't do live preview - you have to use the viewfinder for
    > framing.
    > The 10d/Rebel doesn't have tilt viewfinder for framing at funny angles
    > The 10d/Rebel has much greater DOF (can be good, can be bad dependant on
    > situation).
    > The 10d/Rebel can't do video.
    > The 10d/Rebel doesn't have nightshot and nightframing.
    >


    Yes that's all true but none of those things are that significant to me.
    It's a bit silly to say that the Rebel has no nightshot or live preview as
    what it does have is so much better; a real slr viewfinder and huge low
    light capability. I can't seriously believe that anyone would rather the use
    an LCD to frame a shot or give up low light shots for night focusing.

    A fast lens and the Rebel and 1600 ISO would be a blast. I would like to
    have the tilt LCD though.

    The Rebel has greater DOF? I thought it was the other way around.

    I still think that size and cost is the biggest difference between those two
    cameras. You trade size for photographic capability and quality. The 717 is
    a great camera though, I wish I had bought it instead of the s85.

    Wayne
     
    Wayne J, Sep 29, 2003
    #11
  12. DTRT227

    Guest Guest

    Oops, I slipped up - got the DOF the wrong way round! Thanks for pointing it
    out.

    I personally prefer framing with the LCD in all situations. I don't like
    squinting into a viewfinder if I can help it. Maybe I am a freak, I dunno.
    Maybe its just becuase I don't have years of SLR conditioning (15 years
    since I used one!) and haven't got used to it.

    I agree alot of the nightshot/nightframing is situational and most people
    probably use nightframing to get round not having an optical viewfinder. But
    it does give you the ability to frame in 0 light - if you want it or not is
    another issue.

    Please some camera company develop a APS/Full frame sensor size cam without
    a mirror. I want to see how good it can be.


    >
    > A fast lens and the Rebel and 1600 ISO would be a blast. I would like to
    > have the tilt LCD though.
    >
    > The Rebel has greater DOF? I thought it was the other way around.
    >
    > I still think that size and cost is the biggest difference between those

    two
    > cameras. You trade size for photographic capability and quality. The 717

    is
    > a great camera though, I wish I had bought it instead of the s85.
    >
    > Wayne
    >
    >
     
    Guest, Sep 29, 2003
    #12
  13. DTRT227

    Godfrey Guest

    On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 1:21:50 -0700, Mainlander wrote
    (in message <>):

    > In article <>, dtrt227
    > @aol.com says...
    >> Hi folks.
    >> I have read through a lot of your thoughts on my top 3 camera choices I am
    >> looking at the Canon 10D Rebel, the Nikon 5700, and the Sony F717. I am
    >> not
    >> adverse to changing elnses, and I really want the ability to use it on our
    >> ski
    >> trips for scenery, and for the outdoor events that make up most of my
    >> photography. The costs of the three are reachable, and now I simply want
    >> to
    >> know which of my top two is the one that makes more sense.

    >
    > The F717 is soon to be superseded by the F828.


    Although the F828 will take over as Sony's top of the line camera, the F717
    will be continued in production as a lower priced alternative. At least
    according to the original press release by Sony that I read.

    Godfrey
     
    Godfrey, Sep 29, 2003
    #13
  14. DTRT227

    Godfrey Guest

    On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 3:59:12 -0700, Wayne J wrote
    (in message <OfUdb.1788$>):

    > Yes that's all true but none of those things are that significant to me.
    > It's a bit silly to say that the Rebel has no nightshot or live preview as
    > what it does have is so much better; a real slr viewfinder and huge low
    > light capability. I can't seriously believe that anyone would rather the use
    > an LCD to frame a shot or give up low light shots for night focusing.


    Having a fully electronic viewfinder allows for framing and focusing in IR
    with an IR-pass filter, something that none of the DSLRs are terribly good at
    at all. I like doing IR photography.

    > A fast lens and the Rebel and 1600 ISO would be a blast. I would like to
    > have the tilt LCD though.


    The problem is that "fast" lenses cost a lot. The only bargain priced fast
    lens in the Canon line is the 50/1.8 at $70. Other fast lenses are pricey:
    35/2 is $225, 50/1.4 is $350, a 35/1.4 is $1100, etc. The f/2.8 zooms cost a
    bundle. The DR's kit lens is pretty slow and short range, which means that
    you don't really get DoF control better than a small sensor camera.

    > I still think that size and cost is the biggest difference between those two
    > cameras. You trade size for photographic capability and quality. The 717 is
    > a great camera though, I wish I had bought it instead of the s85.


    The 717 is an excellent camera, used within its capabilities and limitations.
    I added a 10D kit to go beyond that, it succeeds beautifully but it does get
    very expensive. I'm glad I kept the 717, however, as it is handier for a lot
    of my photography.

    Godfrey
     
    Godfrey, Sep 29, 2003
    #14
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