Sometimes it's Just Really Sad to Watch People with P&S Cameras

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by SMS, Dec 17, 2008.

  1. SMS

    SMS Guest

    Tonight I was at an orchestra performance at my daughter's high school.
    I took a bunch of photographs of the orchestra, including some close ups
    of my daughter with the 300mm telephoto. Sitting in front of me was a
    man with a small Canon P&S camera. He was zooming in as close as he
    could holding the camera far out in front of him because it had no
    viewfinder. I could see every photo he took on the LCD, and it was just
    a bunch of dark, with the faces unrecognizable. We were far too far back
    for his tiny flash to have any effect at all, but the stage was well lit.

    I found that I got better results using manual focus, something that's
    rarely necessary. I also found another good feature of the SLR, it makes
    a very good monocular!
     
    SMS, Dec 17, 2008
    #1
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  2. SMS

    Paul Heslop Guest

    SMS wrote:
    >
    > Tonight I was at an orchestra performance at my daughter's high school.
    > I took a bunch of photographs of the orchestra, including some close ups
    > of my daughter with the 300mm telephoto. Sitting in front of me was a
    > man with a small Canon P&S camera. He was zooming in as close as he
    > could holding the camera far out in front of him because it had no
    > viewfinder. I could see every photo he took on the LCD, and it was just
    > a bunch of dark, with the faces unrecognizable. We were far too far back
    > for his tiny flash to have any effect at all, but the stage was well lit.
    >
    > I found that I got better results using manual focus, something that's
    > rarely necessary. I also found another good feature of the SLR, it makes
    > a very good monocular!


    I have to say that I don't have the cash for slr and have two quite
    old olympus p&s. Yes, there are many shortcomings but sometimes what
    apperars to be dark on the screen comes out quite well on the camera
    itself. Obviously it would be nice to have all the right equipment,
    but hey, you make the most of what you have.

    --
    Paul (We won't die of devotion)
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Stop and Look
    http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
     
    Paul Heslop, Dec 17, 2008
    #2
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  3. Stephen Bishop wrote:
    []
    > The fact is, at school concerts, the people who hold up their p&s
    > cameras with all the beeping and flashing are every bit as annoying as
    > the ones who use their big dslrs. Whatever camera you have, you
    > should learn to use it as stealthy as possible.


    The fact is, that all those cameras should be left outside or in the
    handbag or pocket, and people should just sit back and enjoy the concert.
    Let the school have either video or stills folk doing the job properly,
    discreetly, and make a few extra pennies by selling the DVD after the
    concert....

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 17, 2008
    #3
  4. SMS

    Cynicor Guest

    Nucular Reaction wrote:
    > On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:25:26 -0800, SMS <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Tonight I was at an orchestra performance at my daughter's high school.
    >> I took a bunch of photographs of the orchestra, including some close ups
    >> of my daughter with the 300mm telephoto. Sitting in front of me was a
    >> man with a small Canon P&S camera. He was zooming in as close as he
    >> could holding the camera far out in front of him because it had no
    >> viewfinder. I could see every photo he took on the LCD, and it was just
    >> a bunch of dark, with the faces unrecognizable. We were far too far back
    >> for his tiny flash to have any effect at all, but the stage was well lit.
    >>
    >> I found that I got better results using manual focus, something that's
    >> rarely necessary. I also found another good feature of the SLR, it makes
    >> a very good monocular!

    >
    > Does it make you feel less inadequate to make fun of people?


    I can't speak for him, but it definitely makes me feel better about myself.
     
    Cynicor, Dec 17, 2008
    #4
  5. SMS

    Ofnuts Guest

    John Navas wrote:
    > On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:25:26 -0800, SMS <>
    > wrote in <8X02l.14380$>:
    >
    >> Tonight I was at an orchestra performance at my daughter's high school.
    >> I took a bunch of photographs of the orchestra, including some close ups
    >> of my daughter with the 300mm telephoto. Sitting in front of me was a
    >> man with a small Canon P&S camera. He was zooming in as close as he
    >> could holding the camera far out in front of him because it had no
    >> viewfinder. I could see every photo he took on the LCD, and it was just
    >> a bunch of dark, with the faces unrecognizable. We were far too far back
    >> for his tiny flash to have any effect at all, but the stage was well lit.

    >
    > What's really sad is how little experience you have with good compact
    > cameras, preferring instead to put down straw men like this. My compact
    > Panasonic FZ8 beats your bulky and obtrusive 300 mm lens with its faster
    > stabilized Leica-branded 432 mm super-zoom.


    Yes, but I'd like to see the pics you get. Likely noisy, and with a
    blurry orchestra personnel on a sharp stage. Image stabilization doesn't
    slow time. And lens speed isn't everything. The FZ8 zoom is one-half
    f-stop faster than the Canon 300mm (3.3 vs 4)(or even one and half if
    the 300mm is really the 75-300mm f/4-5.6 zoom)(I'll ignore the 300mm
    f/2.8 L). On the other hand, the FZ8 is really restricted to ISO 100
    (200 for the less sensitive people) because at higher sensitivities the
    pictures are crap, while the Canon low-end DSLRs can produce very nice
    pictures at ISO 800. So the Canon will always have an advantage, for
    one-half f-stop to 4 or more, depending on lens used and acceptabilty of
    noisy pictures.

    >> I found that I got better results using manual focus, something that's
    >> rarely necessary.

    >
    > Auto focus in such conditions is no problem with the FZ8.


    Yes, the camera eventually focuses, but the music may have stopped
    first. The FZ8 AF will get you very sharp pictures of... snails.

    > I could use my FZ8, but I'd rather use my good binoculars.


    Not with the EVF, IMHO

    This said, I do agree with you that the original post was entirely
    avoidable, and that there could have been someone in the back with an
    even better camera and bigger lens thinking "Hey, look at that prick
    with the Canon".

    --
    Bertrand, FZ8 owner
     
    Ofnuts, Dec 17, 2008
    #5
  6. SMS

    SMS Guest

    Re: Sometimes it's Just Really Sad to Listen to People with DSLRCameras

    Stephen Bishop wrote:

    > No, you're supposed to say "Dear Resident-Troll." Remember?


    Ah, the stuff you miss when you have a good filter!

    Seriously though, taking photographs during the performance would be in
    bad taste because the flash disturbs the performers. Of course that
    didn't stop the moron in front of me, who continued to take flash
    pictures while they were playing, and still didn't get anything usable
    because of the low light and the wimpy flash. At least no one's cell
    phone rang!

    All my pictures were before the performance, and between pieces, since I
    had to use the flash, and the shutter noise would have disturbed the
    people around me. That's one other thing I've noticed about D-SLR users,
    they tend to be much more considerate about when they use their cameras,
    they don't run around annoying other people at public events. I think it
    comes from learning how to be a photographer, rather than just running
    around taking snapshots.
     
    SMS, Dec 17, 2008
    #6
  7. John Navas wrote:
    []
    > I personally think it's better to keep parents happy by letting them
    > take pictures of their own kids as long as they do their best not to
    > interfere with other parents. That's why they're there. They've
    > already heard their kids ad nauseam. ;) The usual pro does crappy
    > work at a high price, and often fails to get what the parent wants.
    > One of my favorite videos of my daughter on her sax is a good case in
    > point.


    Perhaps school concerts are different, but if I attended an amateur
    performance of something which was spoiled, for me, by photography of any
    sort. I would be asking for my money back. If you /must/ attend a school
    concert, perhaps allowing your photography is some sort of compensation
    for having to suffer the performance! <G>

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 17, 2008
    #7
  8. SMS

    -hh Guest

    Re: Sometimes it's Just Really Sad to Listen to People with DSLRCameras

    SMS <> wrote:
    > That's one other thing I've noticed about D-SLR users,
    > they tend to be much more considerate about when
    > they use their cameras, they don't run around annoying
    > other people at public events.


    Unfortunately, Nikon's current marketing campaigns with Ashton Kutcher
    is setting a bad example in both camera etiquette, as well as for
    chimping after every shot.

    The other unfortunate reality is that the use of the camera for
    chimping and immediate-gratificational display is a motivation behind
    the ever-increasing LCD display sizes, even when they come at the
    price of deleted features, such as the optical viewfinder, articulated
    LCD screen, compromised ergonomics of controls, etc, etc.


    -hh
     
    -hh, Dec 17, 2008
    #8
  9. SMS

    SMS Guest

    Re: Sometimes it's Just Really Sad to Listen to People with DSLRCameras

    -hh wrote:
    > SMS <> wrote:
    >> That's one other thing I've noticed about D-SLR users,
    >> they tend to be much more considerate about when
    >> they use their cameras, they don't run around annoying
    >> other people at public events.

    >
    > Unfortunately, Nikon's current marketing campaigns with Ashton Kutcher
    > is setting a bad example in both camera etiquette, as well as for
    > chimping after every shot.


    Yeah, well people would act like that even without those ads.

    > The other unfortunate reality is that the use of the camera for
    > chimping and immediate-gratificational display is a motivation behind
    > the ever-increasing LCD display sizes, even when they come at the
    > price of deleted features, such as the optical viewfinder, articulated
    > LCD screen, compromised ergonomics of controls, etc, etc.


    Yes, for many, it's the only way they ever look at their photos.
     
    SMS, Dec 17, 2008
    #9
  10. SMS

    Pete D Guest

    "John Navas" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    > On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:49:02 +0100, Ofnuts <>
    > wrote in <4948f53d$0$20042$>:
    >
    >>John Navas wrote:

    >
    >>> What's really sad is how little experience you have with good compact
    >>> cameras, preferring instead to put down straw men like this. My compact
    >>> Panasonic FZ8 beats your bulky and obtrusive 300 mm lens with its faster
    >>> stabilized Leica-branded 432 mm super-zoom.

    >
    > Again, that was intended to be a sly dig, not a silly brag.
    >
    >>Yes, but I'd like to see the pics you get. Likely noisy, and with a
    >>blurry orchestra personnel on a sharp stage. Image stabilization doesn't
    >>slow time.

    >
    > Depends -- stages are often pretty brightly lit. Regardless, I keep ISO
    > down, use Neat Image in post processing, and the results are excellent.
    >
    >>And lens speed isn't everything. The FZ8 zoom is one-half
    >>f-stop faster than the Canon 300mm (3.3 vs 4)(or even one and half if
    >>the 300mm is really the 75-300mm f/4-5.6 zoom)(I'll ignore the 300mm
    >>f/2.8 L).

    >
    > I get a full stop with my FZ20, which is f/2.8 throughout its zoom
    > range, and the Canon has to be stopped down 1-2 stops for comparable
    > sharpness.
    >
    >>On the other hand, the FZ8 is really restricted to ISO 100
    >>(200 for the less sensitive people) because at higher sensitivities the
    >>pictures are crap,

    >
    > With Neat Image I get excellent results at ISO 200, all I usually need,
    > but still get good results even at ISO 400.
    >
    >>while the Canon low-end DSLRs can produce very nice
    >>pictures at ISO 800. So the Canon will always have an advantage, for
    >>one-half f-stop to 4 or more, depending on lens used and acceptabilty of
    >>noisy pictures.

    >
    > In practice the difference between what dSLR people can actually afford
    > and my inexpensive compact super-zooms, for stage images of comparable
    > sharpness, tends to be roughly even, with my lens advantage offsetting
    > the dSLR ISO advantage.
    >
    >>> Auto focus in such conditions is no problem with the FZ8.

    >>
    >>Yes, the camera eventually focuses, but the music may have stopped
    >>first. The FZ8 AF will get you very sharp pictures of... snails.

    >
    > High-speed 1- and 3-spot autofocus (not the default, must be configured
    > by menu) is actually fast and accurate even in lower light. Plus I have
    > pre-focus and manual focus.
    >
    >>> I could use my FZ8, but I'd rather use my good binoculars.

    >>
    >>Not with the EVF, IMHO


    Hey John,

    How about you post some of these shots you have taken, last ones you possted
    were so noisy they were a complete waste of time, lets see if you have
    improved?
     
    Pete D, Dec 17, 2008
    #10
  11. SMS

    Cynicor Guest

    John Navas wrote:
    > On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 05:29:53 -0800, Nucular Reaction
    > <liar@bush-white-house.4sale> wrote in
    > <>:
    >
    >> Makes sense. When you think you're a turd, pretty much anything will
    >> make you feel better. It's good that you know that about yourself.

    >
    > Totally uncalled for.


    I hope he made him feel better by saying that about me. I ran out of the
    newsgroup in tears when I read it. :-(
     
    Cynicor, Dec 17, 2008
    #11
  12. SMS

    The Henchman Guest

    "SMS" <> wrote in message
    news:8X02l.14380$...
    > Tonight I was at an orchestra performance at my daughter's high school. I
    > took a bunch of photographs of the orchestra, including some close ups of
    > my daughter with the 300mm telephoto. Sitting in front of me was a man
    > with a small Canon P&S camera. He was zooming in as close as he could
    > holding the camera far out in front of him because it had no viewfinder. I
    > could see every photo he took on the LCD, and it was just a bunch of dark,
    > with the faces unrecognizable. We were far too far back for his tiny flash
    > to have any effect at all, but the stage was well lit.
    >
    > I found that I got better results using manual focus, something that's
    > rarely necessary. I also found another good feature of the SLR, it makes a
    > very good monocular!


    Yeah because all of us want to hold 1 lb of camera at every moment we
    get....
     
    The Henchman, Dec 17, 2008
    #12
  13. SMS

    SMS Guest

    HEMI-Powered wrote:

    > Occasionally, I hear about people who get upset when security at
    > various events, especially commercial concerts, stop them at the
    > entrance and forbid them access with a camera of any sort. Of
    > course, this turns into a freedom of expression argument right
    > away or a rant against those who are anal about their copyrighted
    > performances. Yet, another perspective is the one you cite,
    > namely that if people are numerous enough taking noisy or flash
    > pictures at a quiet event, one may get pretty pissed off.


    The event host needs to set the rules. At some school events, the
    principal or director is pretty good, and explains at the beginning that
    there is no flash photography during the playing, no standing up to take
    photos or videos, no cell phones, etc.. Last night, they made the cell
    phone announcement, but nothing about photography. So there were several
    annoying people taking flash photographs while the students were
    playing. There is one advantage of a P&S camera in that you can set it
    to operate silently, while the SLR makes too much noise in a quiet
    concert hall to take photos during the performance.
     
    SMS, Dec 18, 2008
    #13
  14. HEMI-Powered wrote:
    []
    > What I've found to be helpful in the rare times when I want to
    > try for some photography where I think tempers may flair is to
    > ask in advance and NOT use flash. Sometimes I'm given the OK but
    > most times I'm asked not to. Again, some would argue that they
    > have a God-given or First Amendment right to take pictures of
    > anything, anytime, anywhere, but I'd rather not risk getting
    > booted from the event, or worse, having an encounter with the
    > police that might involve losing my camera or even getting
    > arrested.


    Asking is an excellent idea. At least I've done this where there was a
    "no photographs" policy and told it would be OK if I was discreet (this
    wasn't during a performance of any kind - but a guided tour of a
    building).

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Dec 18, 2008
    #14
  15. SMS

    -hh Guest

    Re: Sometimes it's Just Really Sad to Listen to People with DSLRCameras

    John Navas <> wrote:
    >SMS <> wrote:
    > >Yes, for many, it's the only way they ever look at their photos.

    >
    > You know that ... how?
    >
    > I don't know anyone that takes pictures and never looks at them
    > afterwards out of the camera.


    Of course, none of us really have any hard data either way.

    But unlike John, I do know of at least one person who 'never looks at
    them out of the camera'. My mother doesn't trust downloading to the
    PC, so she prettty much keeps all of her images on the flash memory
    cards, and asks us to buy her another memory card when one gets
    filled.

    What I've anecdotally noticed over the past several years is that the
    introduction of color LCD displays on "small portable ubiqutous
    electronic devices" has resulted in an increased frequency of their
    use for impromptu sharing of images on that tiny screen. In thinking
    about it, I'd say that I saw this trend start as early as 2003 with
    photos on a Palm T3 PDA (color display).

    WIth ubiquitously available devices, it only takes a moment to pull
    out the pocket device while in the middle of a conversation and click-
    click-click-BOOM show the image to your conversant. Convenient,
    ubiquitous and immediate gratification.

    This isn't just compact digital cameras. It includes PDAs and
    cellphones...and even some Apple iPods too. It just needs a color
    display that's ubiquitously in the owner's pocket, and the ability of
    that device to store/display color images.

    From there, its merely a question as to how much our general viewing
    habits have shifted. For example, I've dumped a part of one of my
    portfolios onto an iPod nano, and I'm inclined to say that I've
    probably viewed those particular images on that tiny nano screen a lot
    more often than I have looked at the traditional hardcopies. As such,
    I do believe that there's a tangible "shift" that's occuring in
    general viewing habits...afterall, a bit over a decade ago, none of us
    were viewing our images on computer desktops or screensavers, but now
    that activity is commonplace.

    Will this medium literally get to the point of people carrying around
    a portable device that displays their image libraries, and they use
    this to near-exclusion to alternative interface venues? I don't
    know, but I'd also be reluctant to saying "NO" and claim that it will
    never happen. Afterall, the one thing that we can rely on with
    technology is that it will invariably change our daily routines.


    -hh
     
    -hh, Dec 18, 2008
    #15
  16. SMS

    SMS Guest

    Re: Sometimes it's Just Really Sad to Listen to People with DSLRCameras

    -hh wrote:

    > Of course, none of us really have any hard data either way.


    No hard data, but look at how teenagers use their camera phones and
    digital cameras. They use the LCD screen to share images with their friends.
     
    SMS, Dec 18, 2008
    #16
  17. SMS

    -hh Guest

    Re: Sometimes it's Just Really Sad to Listen to People with DSLRCameras

    SMS <> wrote:
    > -hh wrote:
    > > Of course, none of us really have any hard data either way.

    >
    > No hard data, but look at how teenagers use their camera phones and
    > digital cameras. They use the LCD screen to share images with their friends.


    Precisely what I referred to as the color LCD displays on "small
    portable ubiqutous electronic devices".


    The other 'trend' is that every photo ... no matter how bad ... gets
    dumped onto Photobucket or equivalent web-based image storage service.


    -hh
     
    -hh, Dec 18, 2008
    #17
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