Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Woger, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. Woger

    Woger Guest

    Software Ownership can't be transferred.

    A friend saw Sonar 7 software for sale on trademe, so he contacted the
    software company (Cakewalk) to ask about transferring the ownership to himself
    and was told that it can't be done.


    Is this legal here..
     
    Woger, Jul 18, 2009
    #1
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  2. Woger

    Gordon Guest

    On 2009-07-18, Woger <> wrote:
    >
    >
    > Software Ownership can't be transferred.
    >
    > A friend saw Sonar 7 software for sale on trademe, so he contacted the
    > software company (Cakewalk) to ask about transferring the ownership to himself
    > and was told that it can't be done.
    >
    >
    > Is this legal here..
    >

    Why not? If the agreement is that "owenership" of the software is only
    aloowed between Cakewalk and a second party then no third party in this
    equation.
     
    Gordon, Jul 18, 2009
    #2
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  3. Woger

    Woger Guest

    On 18 Jul 2009 04:16:16 GMT, Gordon <> wrote:

    >On 2009-07-18, Woger <> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> Software Ownership can't be transferred.
    >>
    >> A friend saw Sonar 7 software for sale on trademe, so he contacted the
    >> software company (Cakewalk) to ask about transferring the ownership to himself
    >> and was told that it can't be done.
    >>
    >>
    >> Is this legal here..
    >>

    >Why not? If the agreement is that "owenership" of the software is only
    >aloowed between Cakewalk and a second party then no third party in this
    >equation.




    Yes But is that Legal here..?
     
    Woger, Jul 18, 2009
    #3
  4. Woger

    Alan Guest

    "Woger" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > Software Ownership can't be transferred.
    >
    > A friend saw Sonar 7 software for sale on trademe, so he contacted
    > the
    > software company (Cakewalk) to ask about transferring the ownership
    > to himself
    > and was told that it can't be done.
    >
    >
    > Is this legal here..
    >


    Why wouldn't it be legal here?

    If Cakewalk want to transfer ownership of their Sonar 7 software then
    they are perfectly entitled to do so (assuming they do in fact have
    unencumbered rights to it).

    I imagine they will have to either continue honouring any committments
    to users that have paid for the right to use their software (support
    etc) or transfer those obligations to the new owner (if their license
    agreement allows them to do so).

    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
     
    Alan, Jul 18, 2009
    #4
  5. Re: Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

    In message <h3s8gk$b1d$-september.org>, Peter wrote:

    > If the first purchaser agreed to such terms of purchase (read the EULA)
    > ...


    But what if the second purchaser did not?
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 18, 2009
    #5
  6. Woger

    Alan Guest

    Re: Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    message news:h3shcq$h9m$...
    > In message <h3s8gk$b1d$-september.org>, Peter wrote:
    >
    >> If the first purchaser agreed to such terms of purchase (read the
    >> EULA)
    >> ...

    >
    > But what if the second purchaser did not?
    >



    If you buy something second hand, and assuming that the vendor has the
    right to sell it to you, then the obligations of the first purchaser
    either remain with them, and / or are transferred to the secondary
    purchaser - usually both. This is most usually a condition of the
    original contract - requiring the original recipient to impose similar
    conditions on any subsequent transferees.


    Imperfect Analogy:

    A owns a building.
    B rents it from A.

    The rental agreement allows B to sub-let.

    B sub-lets to C.

    B is still liable to A for all of the obligations in the original
    lease.
    C is liable to B for all of the obligations in the secondary lease.


    If C does something that breaches a condition of the original lease,
    then it is B that is liable to A - not C (since A and C have no
    contractual relationship).

    However, C may be liable to B depending on the terms in the secondary
    lease that they agreed to.


    Many leases specifically prohibit sub-letting or, if it is allowed,
    require that C enter into a contract with A making C (as well as
    leaving B) contractually liable to A.


    Another example that you might be more familar with, is the way that
    the GPL enforces obligations on a secondary recipient of software even
    though they did not obtain it directly from the original author. It
    does this in exactly the same way, by imposing the obligation on the
    primary recipient to enforce those conditions on any secondary
    recipients.



    Also similarly, read the first few pages of a published book - it will
    likely include a condition that has the same kind of effect (about not
    re-publishing in a different cover / form etc etc and that a similar
    condition is imposed on the transferee).


    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
     
    Alan, Jul 18, 2009
    #6
  7. Woger

    Woger Guest

    On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:54:41 +1200, "Alan" <> wrote:

    >"Woger" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >>
    >>
    >> Software Ownership can't be transferred.
    >>
    >> A friend saw Sonar 7 software for sale on trademe, so he contacted
    >> the
    >> software company (Cakewalk) to ask about transferring the ownership
    >> to himself
    >> and was told that it can't be done.
    >>
    >>
    >> Is this legal here..
    >>

    >
    >Why wouldn't it be legal here?
    >
    >If Cakewalk want to transfer ownership of their Sonar 7 software then
    >they are perfectly entitled to do so (assuming they do in fact have
    >unencumbered rights to it).
    >
    >I imagine they will have to either continue honouring any committments
    >to users that have paid for the right to use their software (support
    >etc) or transfer those obligations to the new owner (if their license
    >agreement allows them to do so).
    >
    >Alan.




    Be cause we have different consumer laws here that are not the same as the US.
     
    Woger, Jul 19, 2009
    #7
  8. Woger

    Alan Guest

    "Woger" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:54:41 +1200, "Alan" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>"Woger" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Software Ownership can't be transferred.
    >>>
    >>> A friend saw Sonar 7 software for sale on trademe, so he contacted
    >>> the
    >>> software company (Cakewalk) to ask about transferring the
    >>> ownership
    >>> to himself
    >>> and was told that it can't be done.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Is this legal here..
    >>>

    >>
    >>Why wouldn't it be legal here?
    >>
    >>If Cakewalk want to transfer ownership of their Sonar 7 software
    >>then
    >>they are perfectly entitled to do so (assuming they do in fact have
    >>unencumbered rights to it).
    >>
    >>I imagine they will have to either continue honouring any
    >>committments
    >>to users that have paid for the right to use their software (support
    >>etc) or transfer those obligations to the new owner (if their
    >>license
    >>agreement allows them to do so).
    >>
    >>Alan.

    >
    >
    >
    > Be cause we have different consumer laws here that are not the same
    > as the US.
    >


    Yes, but how do you think this is against consumer law here?

    I see nothing that would make this contravene the law in NZ. Is there
    something in particular that you think does?

    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
     
    Alan, Jul 19, 2009
    #8
  9. Woger

    Tony in Oz Guest

    "Woger" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > Software Ownership can't be transferred.
    >
    > A friend saw Sonar 7 software for sale on trademe, >
    >




    There's your first line of bullshit... Everyone knows you don't
    have any friends, Woger....
     
    Tony in Oz, Jul 19, 2009
    #9
  10. Woger

    thingy Guest

    Re: Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

    On Jul 18, 2:43 pm, Woger <> wrote:
    > Software  Ownership can't be transferred.
    >
    > A friend saw Sonar 7 software for sale on trademe, so he contacted the
    > software company (Cakewalk) to ask about transferring the ownership to himself
    > and was told that it can't be done.
    >
    > Is this legal here..


    Which? ie is it legal to transfer or is it legal for the company to
    not allow it?

    If you go into EB games you can buy second hand games. Go into a car
    yard, you can buy a second hand car.....the house you live in, did you
    get it built for you? or were there previous owners who legally sold
    it to you? When you buy a second hand PC, doesnt it usually have a wee
    MS sticker on it saying it is legal and is attached to that PC? So,
    Cakewalk should be legally re-saleable, the company could of course
    prevent a re-activation....deny you the right to upgrade....

    Is it legal to re-sell? yes I believe so, however If you want to know
    if its legal, the answer has to be see a lawyer.

    One very good reason to use GPL software, you have reasonable rights
    to use the software.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Jul 19, 2009
    #10
  11. Woger

    Alan Guest

    "whoisthis" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <h3s8gk$b1d$-september.org>,
    > Peter <> wrote:
    >
    >> Woger wrote:
    >> > On 18 Jul 2009 04:16:16 GMT, Gordon <> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >>On 2009-07-18, Woger <> wrote:
    >> >>> Software Ownership can't be transferred.
    >> >>>
    >> >>> A friend saw Sonar 7 software for sale on trademe, so he
    >> >>> contacted the
    >> >>> software company (Cakewalk) to ask about transferring the
    >> >>> ownership to
    >> >>> himself and was told that it can't be done.
    >> >>>
    >> >>> Is this legal here..
    >> >>>
    >> >>Why not? If the agreement is that "owenership" of the software is
    >> >>only
    >> >>aloowed between Cakewalk and a second party then no third party
    >> >>in this
    >> >>equation.
    >> >
    >> > Yes But is that Legal here..?

    >>
    >> If the first purchaser agreed to such terms of purchase (read the
    >> EULA),
    >> then of course it would be legal. Why not?

    >
    > Because sometimes in NZ law you can NOT contract your way out of
    > things.


    Hi,

    What examples are there that specifically apply to the ability of
    someone to sell their software to someone else?

    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
     
    Alan, Jul 19, 2009
    #11
  12. Woger

    Woger Guest

    Re: Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

    On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 01:38:14 -0700 (PDT), thingy <>
    wrote:

    >On Jul 18, 2:43 pm, Woger <> wrote:
    >> Software  Ownership can't be transferred.
    >>
    >> A friend saw Sonar 7 software for sale on trademe, so he contacted the
    >> software company (Cakewalk) to ask about transferring the ownership to himself
    >> and was told that it can't be done.
    >>
    >> Is this legal here..

    >
    >Which? ie is it legal to transfer or is it legal for the company to
    >not allow it?
    >
    >If you go into EB games you can buy second hand games. Go into a car
    >yard, you can buy a second hand car.....the house you live in, did you
    >get it built for you? or were there previous owners who legally sold
    >it to you? When you buy a second hand PC, doesnt it usually have a wee
    >MS sticker on it saying it is legal and is attached to that PC? So,
    >Cakewalk should be legally re-saleable, the company could of course
    >prevent a re-activation....deny you the right to upgrade....
    >
    >Is it legal to re-sell? yes I believe so, however If you want to know
    >if its legal, the answer has to be see a lawyer.
    >
    >One very good reason to use GPL software, you have reasonable rights
    >to use the software.
    >
    >regards
    >
    >Thing




    There is No GPL software that can do this so why bring it up..??
     
    Woger, Jul 19, 2009
    #12
  13. Re: Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

    In message <>, Woger wrote:

    > There is No GPL software that can do this so why bring it up..??


    Audacity <http://audacity.sourceforge.net/> is popular for a lot of audio
    recording/editing work. It also plugs into JACK <http://jackaudio.org/>.

    If you want something more like what pro audio engineers use, there's Ardour
    <http://ardour.org/>. That also supports JACK.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 20, 2009
    #13
  14. Re: Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

    In message <>, Allistar wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> In message <h3s8gk$b1d$-september.org>, Peter wrote:
    >>
    >>> If the first purchaser agreed to such terms of purchase (read the EULA)

    >>
    >> But what if the second purchaser did not?

    >
    > If the first purcasher agreed that they would not onsell the software,
    > then there can be no second purchaser - not without the first purchaser
    > breaking the terms of the cont[r]act.


    What if they do?
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 20, 2009
    #14
  15. Woger

    Mutlley Guest

    Re: Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

    Allistar <> wrote:

    >Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> In message <>, Allistar
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In message <h3s8gk$b1d$-september.org>, Peter wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> If the first purchaser agreed to such terms of purchase (read the EULA)
    >>>>
    >>>> But what if the second purchaser did not?
    >>>
    >>> If the first purcasher agreed that they would not onsell the software,
    >>> then there can be no second purchaser - not without the first purchaser
    >>> breaking the terms of the cont[r]act.

    >>
    >> What if they do?

    >
    >Then they are breaking the law and I would expect the software developer to
    >prosecute them accordingly. When installing the softare, the second seller
    >would have also seen the EULA and would be aware of the restrictions in it.


    What law?? . Point me to a NZ law that says you can't on sell the
    software.. It may be against the EULA but no NZ law..
     
    Mutlley, Jul 20, 2009
    #15
  16. Woger

    Alan Guest

    Re: Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    message news:h408r2$ma9$...
    > In message <>, Allistar
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>> In message <h3s8gk$b1d$-september.org>, Peter wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> If the first purchaser agreed to such terms of purchase (read the
    >>>> EULA)
    >>>
    >>> But what if the second purchaser did not?

    >>
    >> If the first purcasher agreed that they would not onsell the
    >> software,
    >> then there can be no second purchaser - not without the first
    >> purchaser
    >> breaking the terms of the cont[r]act.

    >
    > What if they do?
    >


    Then the secondary purchaser is getting something that is unlikely to
    be supported, and they may not be able to make full use of.

    If so, and they bought it knowing that, then *they* have no cause for
    complaint. If they didn't know, then they should go after the person
    they got it from (the primary purchaser).

    The primary purchaser may also be in breach of contract with the
    software owner. If so, and if the software owner wanted to, they
    could sue them (not likely they would bother of course) if they could
    be bothered.

    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
     
    Alan, Jul 20, 2009
    #16
  17. Woger

    Alan Guest

    Re: Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

    "Allistar" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> In message <>,
    >> Allistar
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In message <h3s8gk$b1d$-september.org>, Peter
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> If the first purchaser agreed to such terms of purchase (read
    >>>>> the EULA)
    >>>>
    >>>> But what if the second purchaser did not?
    >>>
    >>> If the first purcasher agreed that they would not onsell the
    >>> software,
    >>> then there can be no second purchaser - not without the first
    >>> purchaser
    >>> breaking the terms of the cont[r]act.

    >>
    >> What if they do?

    >
    > Then they are breaking the law and I would expect the software
    > developer to
    > prosecute them accordingly. When installing the softare, the second
    > seller
    > would have also seen the EULA and would be aware of the restrictions
    > in it.
    >


    Depends what you mean by 'breaking the law', but I doubt they would be
    committing a crime - breach of contract is not the same as a criminal
    act.

    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
     
    Alan, Jul 20, 2009
    #17
  18. Woger

    Alan Guest

    Re: Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    message news:h408q2$ma9$...
    > In message <>, Woger
    > wrote:
    >
    >> There is No GPL software that can do this so why bring it up..??

    >
    > Audacity <http://audacity.sourceforge.net/> is popular for a lot of
    > audio
    > recording/editing work. It also plugs into JACK
    > <http://jackaudio.org/>.
    >
    > If you want something more like what pro audio engineers use,
    > there's Ardour
    > <http://ardour.org/>. That also supports JACK.
    >


    Plus one for Audacity - it rocks!

    I am not a pro audio engineer though ;-)

    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
     
    Alan, Jul 20, 2009
    #18
  19. Woger

    Woger Guest

    Re: Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

    On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:04:33 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <_zealand> wrote:

    >In message <>, Woger wrote:
    >
    >> There is No GPL software that can do this so why bring it up..??

    >
    >Audacity <http://audacity.sourceforge.net/> is popular for a lot of audio
    >recording/editing work. It also plugs into JACK <http://jackaudio.org/>.
    >
    >If you want something more like what pro audio engineers use, there's Ardour
    ><http://ardour.org/>. That also supports JACK.




    But will they work on XP...?

    I don't think so.
     
    Woger, Jul 20, 2009
    #19
  20. Woger

    Alan Guest

    Re: Software Ownership can't be tranferred.

    "Allistar" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Bret wrote:
    >
    >> On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:02:59 +1200, Allistar wrote:
    >>
    >>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In message <h3s8gk$b1d$-september.org>, Peter
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> If the first purchaser agreed to such terms of purchase (read
    >>>>> the EULA)
    >>>>
    >>>> But what if the second purchaser did not?
    >>>
    >>> If the first purcasher agreed that they would not onsell the
    >>> software,
    >>> then there can be no second purchaser - not without the first
    >>> purchaser
    >>> breaking the terms of the contact.

    >>
    >> Unless it is contrary to statute.

    >
    > Yes - although I personally disagree with statute being able to
    > prevent two
    > consenting adults on agreeing to something.
    >


    Absolutely!

    What a fundamental infringement of freedom that is.

    Alan.


    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
     
    Alan, Jul 20, 2009
    #20
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