SOFTWARE LIBRE! By Nandor Tanczos, Green MP

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Peter Harrison, Sep 23, 2003.

  1. Peter Harrison, Sep 23, 2003
    #1
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  2. Peter Harrison

    Dogg Guest

    On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:41:47 +1200, Peter Harrison
    <> wrote:

    >SOFTWARE LIBRE! By Nandor Tanczos, Green MP
    >Nandor has written an article about use of open source in Government:
    >http://www.nzoss.org.nz/portal/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=242


    Running Mandrake eh? Good choice. I'm a complete Linux novice but have
    tried a few flavours and have found Mandrake to be the "easiest" to
    configure and use. It also always found all hardware where RedHat
    seems to be fussy with soundcards and modems.
     
    Dogg, Sep 23, 2003
    #2
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  3. Peter Harrison

    T-Boy Guest

    T-Boy, Sep 23, 2003
    #3
  4. Peter Harrison

    T.N.O. Guest

    "T-Boy" wrote
    > > Nandor


    > Great, someone point out that www.greens.co.nz - is *still*
    > running on MS IIS...


    Looks like he is still a drugged up hippie.
     
    T.N.O., Sep 23, 2003
    #4
  5. "T.N.O." <> wrote in message
    news:bko5se$3vsn9$-berlin.de...
    > "Peter Harrison" wrote
    > > SOFTWARE LIBRE! By Nandor Tanczos, Green MP

    >
    > Opening sentence...
    > "Imagine if your car came with conditions."
    > It does, I am only allowed to drive under the speed limit, not on the

    beach,
    > not on rugby fields...
    >
    > A few lines into it.
    > "The commercialisation of science has distorted its direction towards
    > technologies that facilitate corporate control and profit rather than the
    > well being of humanity as a whole (GE, armaments, botox)."
    >
    > GE has not been proven good, bad or otherwise, there are things that can

    be
    > done with GE that may well help the world.
    > Armaments were used to bring down Nazi Germany, cant say that that didn't
    > help the well being of humanity.
    > Botox, well.. yeah, no comment :)
    >
    > and then
    > "When I ask them about it the answer is usually "um, we think it's good

    but
    > we keep forgetting to consider it when we upgrade"."
    > I'd like to know who he asked, and if this is a direct quote as it is
    > implied.
    >
    > and then
    > "However, there is little information about what we have given Microsoft

    in
    > exchange or how much this is going to cost us."
    > There is also no information to suggest that they have had to give

    anything,
    > or provide any payment... FUD.
    >
    > and then
    > "In any case, most virus writers design viruses to attack Microsoft and

    not
    > Linux!"
    > at this stage, as linux grows more popular, and more ma and pa's start

    using
    > it, it will be targeted.
    >
    > and the last paragraph.
    > "Because the programs are usually more streamlined"
    > In what way?
    >
    > "they can be run on smaller hard drives"
    > yeah, because that is a major issue today.
    >
    > It's good to see that he isnt just a drugged up hippy, but really, he
    > probably should have stuck to "greeny" issues.
    >
    >


    Well he might not be 100% correct (in your opinion) about everything, but
    the value in the piece is that he is in a position of influence where he can
    say that these are important things to be considered.
    If you asked Trevor Mallard to justify the extraordinary amounts that the
    government pays for deals with proprietary software vendors, I'm sure he
    would be similarly adept, and both of them would do much better than the
    average parliamentarian, both on "greeny" issues and "geeky" issues.
     
    Olson Johnson, Sep 23, 2003
    #5
  6. Peter Harrison

    T.N.O. Guest

    reply is inline, all good point have been sniped... not for any reason other
    than, differing opinions, bever gonna agree.

    "Evil Bastard" wrote
    > > at this stage, as linux grows more popular, and more ma and pa's start

    using
    > > it, it will be targeted.

    >
    > One difference - with open source development teams, they have a tendency
    > to pull their fingers out and issue new patches - FAST.


    But users still have to apply patches, look at pretty much any virus
    problems that have existed on MS platforms, almost all(I cant think of any
    exceptions) had patches available, they simply had not been applied.

    > The open source user community - the end customers - have much more of a
    > 'community' focus, and tend to take more responsibility for the good
    > running of their systems.


    Well I hope they are good at user education, they have one hell of a job
    ahead of them.

    > In contrast, customers of proprietary software tend to be babies, lying
    > back uttering 'goo goo goo' and crying 'i'm wet/hungry/cold/lonely'.


    oh yeah, thats mature.

    > > "they can be run on smaller hard drives"
    > > yeah, because that is a major issue today.

    >
    > It amounts to massive savings. If an office suite or other strategic
    > application can run on the existing hardware, there's no need for any
    > ginormous hardware upgrades. The hardware upgrade cycle can be slower, and
    > when upgrading, govt customers won't have to buy the latest and greatest -
    > they can upgrade to slightly older gen hardware and save an absolute wad.


    at the detrement to the hardware industry... it isnt all one sided.

    > > It's good to see that he isnt just a drugged up hippy, but really, he
    > > probably should have stuck to "greeny" issues.

    >
    > An Afro-American would have an easier time swaying people's beliefs at a
    > midnight KKK rally than anyone would have in getting you to examine your
    > own entrenched prejudices.
    > Please - for fucks sake - RE-THINK!!!


    I do think... constantly.
     
    T.N.O., Sep 23, 2003
    #6
  7. Peter Harrison

    Evil Bastard Guest

    On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:24:33 +1200, T.N.O. wrote:

    > But users still have to apply patches, look at pretty much any virus
    > problems that have existed on MS platforms, almost all(I cant think of any
    > exceptions) had patches available, they simply had not been applied.


    Referring to earlier reply - I believe the attitude amongst OSS users is
    more pro-active. For instance, when I hear about new sploits I dive in and
    patch straight away.

    >> The open source user community - the end customers - have much more of a
    >> 'community' focus, and tend to take more responsibility for the good
    >> running of their systems.

    >
    > Well I hope they are good at user education, they have one hell of a job
    > ahead of them.


    You do have a point there. OSS is still a tad 'geeky' compared to
    proprietary solutions. However, Mandrake continues to be a major innovator
    in the evolution towards user-friendly desktops/servers that still let
    people in under the hood.

    There will be a lot of responsibility - but this will mainly be with the
    techos who stitch the apps together and control the visible desktop
    look-n-feel.

    Just as many libraries have done a great job of locking down the desktops
    on their public internet computers, it'll be up to govt geeks to lock down
    OSS desktops to make them fit for users.

    The good news is that the cost of hiring and retaining such geeks is a
    puny fraction of the cost of the proprietary alternatives. Even if you pay
    them salaries of $100k each, it's not a drop in the ocean compared to the
    money saved.

    >> In contrast, customers of proprietary software tend to be babies, lying
    >> back uttering 'goo goo goo' and crying 'i'm wet/hungry/cold/lonely'.

    >
    > oh yeah, thats mature.


    A *slight* exaggeration, I confess :)

    >> > "they can be run on smaller hard drives"
    >> > yeah, because that is a major issue today.

    >>
    >> It amounts to massive savings. If an office suite or other strategic
    >> application can run on the existing hardware, there's no need for any
    >> ginormous hardware upgrades. The hardware upgrade cycle can be slower, and
    >> when upgrading, govt customers won't have to buy the latest and greatest -
    >> they can upgrade to slightly older gen hardware and save an absolute wad.

    >
    > at the detrement to the hardware industry... it isnt all one sided.


    There ain't no hardware industry in NZ. Like, where can I buy NZ-designed
    and built monitors, motherboards, CPUs etc.

    If there's a detriment to the overseas hardware industry, that's great,
    because that's bux that aren't haemorrhaging out of NZ.

    >> > It's good to see that he isnt just a drugged up hippy, but really, he
    >> > probably should have stuck to "greeny" issues.

    >>
    >> An Afro-American would have an easier time swaying people's beliefs at a
    >> midnight KKK rally than anyone would have in getting you to examine your
    >> own entrenched prejudices.
    >> Please - for fucks sake - RE-THINK!!!

    >
    > I do think... constantly.


    There might be some constants which could have been better declared as
    variables in your neural net code.
     
    Evil Bastard, Sep 23, 2003
    #7
  8. Peter Harrison

    T.N.O. Guest

    "Evil Bastard" wrote

    All good points sniped... again, not intentional, just that well, I agree
    with most, and those that I dont, not worth arguing about.

    > > at the detrement to the hardware industry... it isnt all one sided.

    >
    > There ain't no hardware industry in NZ. Like, where can I buy NZ-designed
    > and built monitors, motherboards, CPUs etc.
    > If there's a detriment to the overseas hardware industry, that's great,
    > because that's bux that aren't haemorrhaging out of NZ.


    it may be good for NZ, but who is NZ going to sell software to, no-one is
    going to be able to afford it as they are selling no hardware... ok so
    they'll sell something, but the market will shrink overall.

    > > I do think... constantly.


    > There might be some constants which could have been better declared as
    > variables in your neural net code.


    Bt said something similar the other day, maybe I need a holiday
     
    T.N.O., Sep 23, 2003
    #8
  9. Peter Harrison

    Guest

    On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:24:33 +1200, "T.N.O." <> wrote:

    >reply is inline, all good point have been sniped... not for any reason other
    >than, differing opinions, bever gonna agree.
    >
    >"Evil Bastard" wrote
    >> > at this stage, as linux grows more popular, and more ma and pa's start

    >using
    >> > it, it will be targeted.

    >>
    >> One difference - with open source development teams, they have a tendency
    >> to pull their fingers out and issue new patches - FAST.

    >
    >But users still have to apply patches, look at pretty much any virus
    >problems that have existed on MS platforms, almost all(I cant think of any
    >exceptions) had patches available, they simply had not been applied.
    >

    <snip>

    Patch comes before virus these days.
    Some outfit of mostly Czechs in CA find the buffer overruns and tell
    msoft.
    Msoft issue the patch.
    Virus writers decompile the patch to figure out the vulnerability.
    Then they write the virus and release it.

    At least that is what I have been told
     
    , Sep 23, 2003
    #9
  10. Peter Harrison

    Guest

    On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:53:47 +1200, "T.N.O." <> wrote:


    >and the last paragraph.
    >"Because the programs are usually more streamlined"
    >In what way?
    >
    >"they can be run on smaller hard drives"
    >yeah, because that is a major issue today.
    >
    >It's good to see that he isnt just a drugged up hippy, but really, he
    >probably should have stuck to "greeny" issues.
    >


    I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Perhaps the following
    excerpts may make Nandor's comment a little clearer.

    from:
    http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.09/myhrvold.html
    "...it has perhaps half a million. Microsoft Word was at 27,000 lines
    of code in the first version. It's now about 2 million. So, we have
    increased the size and complexity of software even faster than Moore's
    Law. In fact, this is why there is a market for faster processors ..."

    from:
    http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2002/03/14/abiword.html
    "...However, the AbiWord team doesn't want AbiWord to become bloated
    with features that most users don't bother to use. With this in mind,
    they've managed to keep the current Windows version down to a 4.4MB
    download.

    "People don't care about [program slimness] that much anymore, but we
    stil consider it an achievement," says Sink. He adds that there's a
    benefit to cutting down the fat in the code: "The smaller size has
    allowed AbiWord to contemplate sub-desktop environments that Word
    could never fit into." "
     
    , Sep 23, 2003
    #10
  11. Peter Harrison

    Peter Guest

    this quote is from Peter Harrison of Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:41 :
    > SOFTWARE LIBRE! By Nandor Tanczos, Green MP
    > Nandor has written an article about use of open source in Government:
    > http://www.nzoss.org.nz/portal/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=242


    Yes - interesting stuff.
    Normally I disagree with most of his views, but in this case I think he is
    mostly on the right track.

    One minor point ...
    "The commercialisation of science has distorted its direction towards
    technologies that facilitate corporate control and profit rather than the
    well being of humanity as a whole."
    IMHO it is not so much the commercialisation of science, but more the growth
    of the concept of "intellectual property" that is doing the damage. These
    legal tools enable certain individuals to capture certain ideas as their
    own and to then demand a ransom from the rest of society. Note that the
    people who get rich out of this aren't the inventors, but those who are
    good are working the legal system.
    For example, Thomas Edison got the fame and fortune from the invention of
    the light bulb, but it was actually invented by others - he just got the
    patents.

    The suggestion that commercialisation is necessary to fund innovation and
    creation just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Consider these great
    innovators and creators; Shakespeare, Newton, Beethoven, Galileo, ... The
    open source community provides a modern day example.

    Oh, and Nandor should update his laptop from Mandrake 9.0 to 9.1, it has
    several neat updates. Better still, wait a few weeks and get MDK 9.2!


    Peter
     
    Peter, Sep 23, 2003
    #11
  12. Peter Harrison

    Peter Guest

    this quote is from T.N.O. of Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:24 :
    >
    > But users still have to apply patches, look at pretty much any virus
    > problems that have existed on MS platforms, almost all(I cant think of any
    > exceptions) had patches available, they simply had not been applied.


    Even if you apply all the available patches, it doesn't make Windows safe.

    For example, there are no patches to protect you from these ...
    http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/
    http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.moks.html
    http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w97m.autch.html

    and, in addition to that, there are unpatched vulnerabilities ...
    http://www.pivx.com/larholm/unpatched/


    Peter
     
    Peter, Sep 23, 2003
    #12
  13. Peter Harrison

    Zaphod Guest

    Did you know also that Sun Microsystems , a big supporter of open
    source, use
    a software and hardware product called Sun Ray.

    This puts a device on each desk which has no disk drive, no fans, no
    moving parts.
    And connects to a server running linux (or Solaris) and allows the user to
    run open office, gnome desk top, netscape, etc - all the productivity
    tools most
    users would need.

    Sun have saved more than 5 million US dollars in Power alone using the
    technology.
    Scott McNeally refers to it as "we got rid of all those space heaters
    sitting on everyones
    desk"

    Imagine if the government plus businesses across NZ (or the globe)
    started deploying
    this kind of technology what the savings could be.

    Have a read of this article by Scott which explains it a bit more.
    http://www.sun.com/executives/perspectives/true.html

    Sun sell a Linux box which is the same as Dell sell but cheaper!


    Peter Harrison wrote:
    > SOFTWARE LIBRE! By Nandor Tanczos, Green MP
    > Nandor has written an article about use of open source in Government:
    > http://www.nzoss.org.nz/portal/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=242
    >
     
    Zaphod, Sep 23, 2003
    #13
  14. Peter Harrison

    ... --- ... Guest

    Re: OS SOFTWARE

    **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****

    On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:01:49 +1200, Mainlander <*@*.*> wrote:

    >In article <WMLbb.3130$>,
    > says...
    >> SOFTWARE LIBRE! By Nandor Tanczos, Green MP
    >> Nandor has written an article about use of open source in Government:
    >> http://www.nzoss.org.nz/portal/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=242

    >
    >I think you can look to see the US government and possibly allied
    >governments clamping down on open source software distribution in the
    >name of the "war on terror" some time in the future.
    >
    >I was at the STunnel site today and it contained a statement on export
    >restrictions of the encryption code in OpenSSL. I suppose we are expected
    >to believe that a terrorist is going to honour these restrictions and not
    >download software that could make it easy for their activities to avoid
    >detection.


    With EU scepticism over US use of intelligence data, it would appear
    that Open Source software has a very secure future (at least in the
    EU) and from recent announcements Asia also, regardless of Microsoft
    attempts to demonise OSS as being "un-patriotic".

    The EU have previously stated that they were seeking to implement Open
    Source solutions as a method to ensure confidentiality of critical
    data, that offers sufficient encryption for security, and freedom from
    backdoors that are present in US-sourced commercial software packages.
    This impetus has resulted from the suspected use of Echelon
    intelligence data to secure commercial contracts for American
    companies.

    Further information on the background to the use of the Echelon
    surveillance network in gathering information for commercial
    espionage, and the resulting EU investigation can be found from the
    following two sources. The second link offers the best in-depth
    summary that I could find, and is well worth a read.

    P.S. The export restriction notices (specified countries) are common
    practice on encryption packages made available from US sources.

    Large size document - Comprehensive
    European Parliament report on the existence of a global system for the
    interception of private and commercial communications (ECHELON
    interception system)
    http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm

    Medium size document - Succinct
    Revelations about Echelon spy network intensify US-European tensions
    By Steve James
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/apr2000/spy-a12.shtml

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    Fax encryption, white noise, Fernspah, MYK, GAFE, forcast, import,
    rain, tiger, buzzer, N9, pink noise, CRA, M.P.R.I., top secret,
    Mossberg, 50BMG, Macintosh Security, Macintosh Internet Security, OC3,
    Macintosh Firewalls, Unix Security, VIP Protection, SIG, sweep, Medco,
    TRD, TDR, Z, sweeping, SURSAT, 5926, TELINT, Audiotel, Harvard, 1080H,
    SWS, Asset, Satellite imagery, force, NAIAG, Cypherpunks, NARF, 127,
    Coderpunks, TRW, remailers, replay, redheads, RX-7, explicit, FLAME,
    J-6, Pornstars, AVN, Playboy, ISSSP, Anonymous, W, Sex, chaining,
    codes, Nuclear, 20, subversives, SLIP, toad, fish, data havens, unix,
    c, a, b, d, SUBACS, the, Elvis, quiche, DES, 1*, N-ISDN, NLSP, OTAR,
    OTAT, OTCIXS, MISSI, MOSAIC, NAVCOMPARS, NCTS, NESP, MILSATCOM,
    AUTODIN, BLACKER, C3I, C4I, CMS, CMW, CP, SBU, SCCN, SITOR, SHF/DOD,
    Finksburg MD, Link 16, LATA, NATIA, NATOA, sneakers, UXO, (), OC-12,
    counterintelligence, Shaldag, sport, NASA, TWA, DT, gtegsc, nowhere,
    ..ch, hope, emc, industrial espionage, SUPIR, PI, TSCI, spookwords,
    industrial intelligence, H.N.P., SUAEWICS, Juiliett Class Submarine,
    Locks, qrss, loch, 64 Vauxhall Cross, Ingram Mac-10, wwics, sigvoice,
    ssa, E.O.D., SEMTEX, penrep, racal, OTP, OSS, Siemens, RPC, Met,
    CIA-DST, INI, watchers, keebler, contacts, Blowpipe, BTM, CCS, GSA,
    Kilo Class, squib, primacord, RSP, Z7, Becker, Nerd, fangs, Austin,
    no|d, Comirex, GPMG, Speakeasy, humint, GEODSS, SORO, M5, BROMURE,
    ANC, zone, SBI, DSS, S.A.I.C., Minox, Keyhole, SAR, Rand Corporation,
    Starr, Wackenhutt, EO, burhop, Wackendude, mol, Shelton, 2E781, F-22,
    2010, JCET, cocaine, Vale, IG, Kosovo, Dake, 36,800, Hillal, Pesec,
    Hindawi, GGL, NAICC, CTU, botux, Virii, CCC, ISPE, CCSC, Scud, SecDef,
    Magdeyev, VOA, Kosiura, Small Pox, Tajik, +=, Blacklisted 411, TRDL,
    Internet Underground, BX, XS4ALL, wetsu, muezzin, Retinal Fetish, WIR,
    Fetish, FCA, Yobie, forschung, emm, ANZUS, Reprieve, NZC-332, edition,
    cards, mania, 701, CTP, CATO, Phon-e, Chicago Posse, NSDM, l0ck,
    beanpole, spook, keywords, QRR, PLA, TDYC, W3, CUD, CdC, Weekly World
    News, Zen, World Domination, Dead, GRU, M72750, Salsa, 7, Blowfish,
    Gorelick, Glock, Ft. Meade, NSWT, press-release, WISDIM, burned,
    Indigo, wire transfer, e-cash, Bubba the Love Sponge, Enforcers,
    Digicash, zip, SWAT, Ortega, PPP, NACSE, crypto-anarchy, AT&T, SGI,
    SUN, MCI, Blacknet, ISM, JCE, Middleman, KLM, Blackbird, NSV, GQ360,
    X400, Texas, jihad, SDI, BRIGAND, Uzi, Fort Meade, *&, gchq.gov.uk,
    supercomputer, bullion, 3, NTTC, Blackmednet, :, Propaganda, ABC,
    Satellite phones, IWIS, Planet-1, ISTA, rs9512c, Jiang Zemin, South
    Africa, Sergeyev, Montenegro, Toeffler, Rebollo, sorot, Yucca
    Mountain, FARC, Toth, Xu Yongyue, Bach, Razor, AC, cryptanalysis,
    nuclear, 52 52 N - 03 03 W, Morgan, Canine, GEBA, INSCOM, MEMEX,
    Stanley, FBI, Panama, fissionable, Sears Tower, NORAD, Delta Force,
    SEAL, virtual, WASS, WID, Dolch, secure shell, screws, Black-Ops, O/S,
    Area51, SABC, basement, ISWG, $@, data-haven, NSDD, black-bag, rack,
    TEMPEST, Goodwin, rebels, ID, MD5, IDEA, garbage, market, beef, Stego,
    ISAF, unclassified, Sayeret Tzanhanim, PARASAR, Gripan, pirg, curly,
    Taiwan, guest, utopia, NSG, orthodox, CCSQ, Alica, SHA, Global,
    gorilla, Bob, UNSCOM, Fukuyama, Manfurov, Kvashnin, Marx, Abdurahmon,
    snullen, Pseudonyms, MITM, NARF, Gray Data, VLSI, mega, Leitrim,
    Yakima, NSES, Sugar Grove, WAS, Cowboy, Gist, 8182, Gatt, Platform,
    1911, Geraldton, UKUSA, veggie, XM, Parvus, NAVSVS, 3848, Morwenstow,
    Consul, Oratory, Pine Gap, Menwith, Mantis, DSD, BVD, 1984, blow out,
    BUDS, WQC, Flintlock, PABX, Electron, Chicago Crust, e95, DDR&E, 3M,
    KEDO, iButton, R1, erco, Toffler, FAS, RHL, K3, Visa/BCC, SNT,
    Ceridian, STE, condor, CipherTAC-2000, Etacs, Shipiro, ssor, piz,
    fritz, KY, 32, Edens, Kiwis, Kamumaruha, DODIG, Firefly, HRM,
    Albright, Bellcore, rail, csim, NMS, 2c, FIPS140-1, CAVE, E-Bomb,
    CDMA, Fortezza, 355ml, ISSC, cybercash, NAWAS, government, NSY, hate,
    speedbump, joe, illuminati, BOSS, Kourou, Misawa, Morse, HF, P415,
    ladylove, filofax, Gulf, lamma, Unit 5707, Sayeret Mat'Kal, Unit 669,
    Sayeret Golani, Lanceros, Summercon, NSADS, president, ISFR, freedom,
    ISSO, walburn, Defcon VI, DC6, Larson, P99, HERF pipe-bomb, 2.3 Oz.,
    cocaine, $, imapct, Roswell, ESN, COS, E.T., credit card, b9, fraud,
    ST1, assasinate, virus, ISCS, ISPR, anarchy, rogue, mailbomb, 888,
    Chelsea, 1997, Whitewater, MOD, York, plutonium, William Gates, clone,
    BATF, SGDN, Nike, WWSV, Atlas, IWWSVCS, Delta, TWA, Kiwi, PGP 2.6.2.,
    PGP 5.0i, PGP 5.1, siliconpimp, SASSTIXS, IWG, Lynch, 414, Face,
    Pixar, IRIDF, NSRB, eternity server, Skytel, Yukon, Templeton,
    Johohonbu, LUK, Cohiba, Soros, Standford, niche, ISEP, ISEC, 51, H&K,
    USP, ^, sardine, bank, EUB, USP, PCS, NRO, Red Cell, NSOF, DC7, Glock
    26, snuffle, Patel, package, ISI, INR, INS, GRU, RUOP, GSS, NSP, SRI,
    Ronco, Armani, BOSS, Chobetsu, FBIS, BND, SISDE, FSB, BfV, IB,
    froglegs, JITEM, SADF, advise, TUSA, LITE, PKK, HoHoCon, SISMI, ISG,
    FIS, MSW, Spyderco, UOP, SSCI, NIMA, HAMASMOIS, SVR, SIN, advisors,
    SAP, Monica, OAU, PFS, Aladdin, AG, chameleon man, Hutsul, CESID,
    Bess, rail gun, .375, Peering, CSC, Tangimoana Beach, Commecen,
    Vanuatu, Kwajalein, LHI, DRM, GSGI, DST, MITI, JERTO, SDF, Koancho,
    Blenheim, Rivera, Kyudanki, varon, 310, 17, 312, NB, CBM, CTP,
    Sardine, SBIRS, jaws, SGDN, ADIU, DEADBEEF, IDP, IDF, Halibut,
    SONANGOL, Flu, &, Loin, PGP 5.53, meta, Faber, SFPD, EG&G, ISEP,
    blackjack, Fox, Aum, AIEWS, AMW, RHL, Baranyi, WORM, MP5K-SD, 1071,
    WINGS, cdi, VIA, DynCorp, UXO, Ti, WWSP, WID, osco, Mary, honor,
    Templar, THAAD, package, CISD, ISG, BIOLWPN, JRA, ISB, ISDS, chosen,
    LBSD, van, schloss, secops, DCSS, DPSD, LIF, J-Star, PRIME, SURVIAC,
    telex, Analyzer, embassy, Golf, B61-7, Maple, Tokyo, ERR, SBU, Threat,
    JPL, Tess, SE, Alex, EPL, SPINTCOM, FOUO, ISS-ADP, Merv, Mexico, SUR,
    blocks, SO13, Rojdykarna, RSOC, USS Banner, S511, 20755, airframe,
    jya.com, Furby, PECSENC, football, Agfa, 3210, Crowell, moore, 510,
    OADR, Smith, toffee, FIS, N5P6, EuroFed, SP4, shelter, Crypto AG
    Croatian nuclear FBI colonel plutonium Ortega Waco, Texas Panama CIA
    DES jihad fissionable quiche terrorist World Trade Center
    assassination DES NORAD Delta Force Waco, Texas SDI explosion Serbian
    Panama Uzi Ft. Meade SEAL Team 6 Honduras PLO NSA terrorist Ft. Meade
    strategic supercomputer $400 million in gold bullion quiche Honduras
    BATF colonel Treasury domestic disruption SEAL Team 6 class struggle
    smuggle M55 M51 Physical Security Division Room 2A0120, OPS 2A
    building 688-6911(b), 963-3371(s). Security Awareness Division (M56)
    Field Security Division (M52) Al Amn al-Askari Supreme Assembly of the
    Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SAIRI) Binnenlandse Veiligheidsdienst
    Komitet Gosudarstvennoi Bezopasnosti Federalnaia sluzhba besopasnosti
    GCHQ MI5 Kill the president
    </SPOOK LIST>

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    ... --- ..., Sep 23, 2003
    #14
  15. "Zaphod" <> wrote in message
    news:BlUbb.156536$...
    > Did you know also that Sun Microsystems , a big supporter of open
    > source, use
    > a software and hardware product called Sun Ray.
    >
    > This puts a device on each desk which has no disk drive, no fans, no
    > moving parts.
    > And connects to a server running linux (or Solaris) and allows the user to
    > run open office, gnome desk top, netscape, etc - all the productivity
    > tools most
    > users would need.
    >
    > Sun have saved more than 5 million US dollars in Power alone using the
    > technology.
    > Scott McNeally refers to it as "we got rid of all those space heaters
    > sitting on everyones
    > desk"
    >
    > Imagine if the government plus businesses across NZ (or the globe)
    > started deploying
    > this kind of technology what the savings could be.
    >
    > Have a read of this article by Scott which explains it a bit more.
    > http://www.sun.com/executives/perspectives/true.html
    >
    > Sun sell a Linux box which is the same as Dell sell but cheaper!
    >


    You don't have to buy it from Sun.
    You can do it yourself with any mobo that supports PXE boot.
    Like a mini- ITX VIA Eden @$NZ200 incl CPU, makes a low power consumption
    graphic terminal for under $NZ400.
    You can even boot it from the knoppix terminal server if you like playing
    with this stuff.
    http://www.knoppix.net/docs/index.php/FaqPXE
    Then use rdesktop to access an XP desktop.
    Or you can make up an etherboot disk with http://rom-o-matic.net if you
    don't have PXE.
    Anyone can do it, its free.
     
    Olson Johnson, Sep 23, 2003
    #15
  16. On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:05:42 +1200, Evil Bastard
    <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote:

    >On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:53:47 +1200, T.N.O. wrote:
    >
    >> "they can be run on smaller hard drives"
    >> yeah, because that is a major issue today.

    >
    >It amounts to massive savings. If an office suite or other strategic
    >application can run on the existing hardware, there's no need for any
    >ginormous hardware upgrades. The hardware upgrade cycle can be slower, and
    >when upgrading, govt customers won't have to buy the latest and greatest -
    >they can upgrade to slightly older gen hardware and save an absolute wad.


    Most corporate/government work relies more on the size and reliability
    of the servers not the desktops. For a while now most business users
    haven't required the latest and greatest hardware.

    Steve
     
    Steve Sinclair, Sep 23, 2003
    #16
  17. On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:01:49 +1200, Mainlander wrote:

    > I was at the STunnel site today and it contained a statement on export
    > restrictions of the encryption code in OpenSSL. I suppose we are expected
    > to believe that a terrorist is going to honour these restrictions and not
    > download software that could make it easy for their activities to avoid
    > detection.


    You don't remember when anything bigger than 56 bit encryption was
    classified as restricted munitions by the US govt.

    They finally gave up on that when it was pointed out that restricting
    export of strong encryption hurt commerce and the bad guys already had it
    anyway.

    By way of carrying a floppy disk in my bag, I became an arms trafficker...


    --
    There are 2 sorts of email opt-in lists:
    1: Those which can demonstrate the provenance of every subscription request.
    2: Fraud
     
    Uncle StoatWarbler, Sep 23, 2003
    #17
  18. Peter Harrison

    AD. Guest

    On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:26:56 +1200, Zaphod wrote:

    > Did you know also that Sun Microsystems , a big supporter of open source,


    Hehe, don't you mean "grudgingly reluctant vendor of some open source
    products just because it annoys MS, that still likes to help fund SCO
    lawsuits and attacks open source more often than they praise it"

    :)

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Sep 23, 2003
    #18
  19. Peter Harrison

    T.N.O. Guest

    "Peter" wrote
    > Even if you apply all the available patches, it doesn't make Windows safe.


    It make you considerably safer than un-patched...
    Same applies to any OS.

    > For example, there are no patches to protect you from these ...
    > http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/


    Same applies to any OS.

    > http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.moks.html


    The same could happen to any OS, granted, not to the root of the drive, but
    it could easily make user lose their data, which to most users is the most
    important information on a PC.

    > and, in addition to that, there are unpatched vulnerabilities ...
    > http://www.pivx.com/larholm/unpatched/


    Cool site... and your right.
     
    T.N.O., Sep 24, 2003
    #19
  20. Peter Harrison

    Guest

    T-Boy <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > Great, someone point out that www.greens.co.nz - is *still*
    > running on MS IIS...
    >
    > http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.greens.co.nz


    Yeah sorry its a constant source of shame for the Green IT group that
    we have not yet converted the current ASP-driven website to OSS.
    Especially since it's a year since our election website (used to be at
    www.votegreen.org.nz) which was OSS.

    Also we have not managed to develop an OSS policy yet. Sigh. Too many
    things to do.

    However we have recently managed to convert our internal Party email
    lists to mailman on Apache on Linux so that's a step forward for OSS
    within the Greens.

    cheers
     
    , Sep 24, 2003
    #20
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