So what's up with MCDST elective

Discussion in 'MCSE' started by John R, Jan 31, 2007.

  1. John R

    John R Guest

    So, MCDST is acceptable as an elective for MCSA, but not for MCSE.

    I understand that MS feels that an MCSA might be expected to pull MCDST
    duties, especially in smaller shops where an MCSA might not only be a member
    of the helpdesk, they might BE the help desk. So, MS accepts MCDST as an
    elective for MCSA. However, in medium to large shops, the same holds true
    for MCSE. Many shops have large centralized IT departments, maybe broken
    out into client vrs server groups, or external vrs internal, or data center
    ops vrs internal support, or some such structure. In these shops, each
    group is designing and deploying GPOs, creating sub-OUs to support those
    GPOs, deploying WSUS by sites, fine tuning replication of DNS and
    application partitions, etc. In fact, in larger shops, MCSE is almost a
    prerequisite to even getting a foot in the door to start in the helpdesk.

    Has MS ever made their opinion known on this topic? The inconsistency is so
    glaring.

    Thanks for letting me vent.

    John
     
    John R, Jan 31, 2007
    #1
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  2. John R

    John R Guest

    Actually, I did contact MS MCP support and asked the question, and their
    response was quite funny.
    When asked the reasoning of why MCDST is not acceptable as an elective for
    MCSE, their answer was that 'MCDST does not fulfill the elective
    requirement'.

    Say again?
     
    John R, Jan 31, 2007
    #2
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  3. John R wrote:
    > So, MCDST is acceptable as an elective for MCSA, but not for MCSE.
    >
    > I understand that MS feels that an MCSA might be expected to pull MCDST
    > duties, especially in smaller shops where an MCSA might not only be a member
    > of the helpdesk, they might BE the help desk. So, MS accepts MCDST as an
    > elective for MCSA. However, in medium to large shops, the same holds true
    > for MCSE. Many shops have large centralized IT departments, maybe broken
    > out into client vrs server groups, or external vrs internal, or data center
    > ops vrs internal support, or some such structure. In these shops, each
    > group is designing and deploying GPOs, creating sub-OUs to support those
    > GPOs, deploying WSUS by sites, fine tuning replication of DNS and
    > application partitions, etc. In fact, in larger shops, MCSE is almost a
    > prerequisite to even getting a foot in the door to start in the helpdesk.
    >
    > Has MS ever made their opinion known on this topic? The inconsistency is so
    > glaring.
    >
    > Thanks for letting me vent.
    >
    > John
    >
    >


    This is likely not the answer you want... I imagine Microsoft wants to
    reinforce the value of MCSE by requiring more advanced electives. After
    all, MCDST is the most basic cert they offer. Something like Exchange,
    SQL Server, or Security make a better capstone to the curriculum.

    Jonathan
     
    Jonathan Roberts, Jan 31, 2007
    #3
  4. John R

    OTHMAN Guest

    > Say again?

    Are you trying to mix oil with water?
     
    OTHMAN, Jan 31, 2007
    #4
  5. John R

    .rev [MCT] Guest

    Pretty much yea. Also we have to remember that the job of an Administrator
    (which is the target of the MCSA) is administration, while the job of an
    engineer is that of design and implementation and deployment planning, not
    the actual deployment. I'm not saying I disagree that in smaller companies
    you tend to see many "Jack-of-all-trades" kinda ITPro, but that isn't
    exactly the total target. For much the same reason the combined A+/Net+ as
    well are an elective for the MCSA but not the MCSE. However more advance, or
    should I say more specialized exams like SQL, Exchange, Security, etc would
    suffice as an elective for either.

    --
    ..rev
    ..
    "It is the mark of an educated man to be able to entertain a thought without
    accepting it"
    ~Aristotle
    ..
    "Jonathan Roberts" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > John R wrote:
    >> So, MCDST is acceptable as an elective for MCSA, but not for MCSE.
    >>
    >> I understand that MS feels that an MCSA might be expected to pull MCDST
    >> duties, especially in smaller shops where an MCSA might not only be a
    >> member of the helpdesk, they might BE the help desk. So, MS accepts
    >> MCDST as an elective for MCSA. However, in medium to large shops, the
    >> same holds true for MCSE. Many shops have large centralized IT
    >> departments, maybe broken out into client vrs server groups, or external
    >> vrs internal, or data center ops vrs internal support, or some such
    >> structure. In these shops, each group is designing and deploying GPOs,
    >> creating sub-OUs to support those GPOs, deploying WSUS by sites, fine
    >> tuning replication of DNS and application partitions, etc. In fact, in
    >> larger shops, MCSE is almost a prerequisite to even getting a foot in the
    >> door to start in the helpdesk.
    >>
    >> Has MS ever made their opinion known on this topic? The inconsistency is
    >> so glaring.
    >>
    >> Thanks for letting me vent.
    >>
    >> John

    >
    > This is likely not the answer you want... I imagine Microsoft wants to
    > reinforce the value of MCSE by requiring more advanced electives. After
    > all, MCDST is the most basic cert they offer. Something like Exchange,
    > SQL Server, or Security make a better capstone to the curriculum.
    >
    > Jonathan
     
    .rev [MCT], Jan 31, 2007
    #5
  6. John R

    John R Guest

    "Jonathan Roberts" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > This is likely not the answer you want... I imagine Microsoft wants to
    > reinforce the value of MCSE by requiring more advanced electives. After
    > all, MCDST is the most basic cert they offer. Something like Exchange,
    > SQL Server, or Security make a better capstone to the curriculum.
    >
    > Jonathan


    I agree with all that. I'm just saying that they even accept the
    configuring Vista test, and that is only one test. MCDST is two tests that
    go a little further into XP than configuration. And quite honestly, I think
    it is going to be a long time before the masses accept Vista.

    I know I'm not going to change policy, I don't expect to. I am just
    pointing out real life, and trying to understand where the priorities are.

    Of course, in real life one would have quite a bit more time to design a
    network infrastructure or security than the tests allow, lol.

    Back to the books for me. Thanks for the responses.
     
    John R, Feb 1, 2007
    #6
  7. John R

    .rev [MCT] Guest

    Right, you can use 70-620 as the Client Elective for the MCSA/MCSE like you
    can 70-210 which is much older technology. 620 is more like 270 than either
    of the MCDST exams, the reason they aren't used as client electives is
    because they test a completely different skill-set. Tech support and
    administration are two different worlds, and the fact you may do both has no
    baring on that fact. As for why its an elective for the MCSA and not the
    MCSE is because an administrator has more chance to be involved with tech
    support than the MCSE by definition, which I said previously.

    --
    ..rev
    ..
    "It is the mark of an educated man to be able to entertain a thought without
    accepting it"
    ~Aristotle
    ..
    "John R" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "Jonathan Roberts" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>
    >> This is likely not the answer you want... I imagine Microsoft wants to
    >> reinforce the value of MCSE by requiring more advanced electives. After
    >> all, MCDST is the most basic cert they offer. Something like Exchange,
    >> SQL Server, or Security make a better capstone to the curriculum.
    >>
    >> Jonathan

    >
    > I agree with all that. I'm just saying that they even accept the
    > configuring Vista test, and that is only one test. MCDST is two tests
    > that go a little further into XP than configuration. And quite honestly,
    > I think it is going to be a long time before the masses accept Vista.
    >
    > I know I'm not going to change policy, I don't expect to. I am just
    > pointing out real life, and trying to understand where the priorities are.
    >
    > Of course, in real life one would have quite a bit more time to design a
    > network infrastructure or security than the tests allow, lol.
    >
    > Back to the books for me. Thanks for the responses.
    >
     
    .rev [MCT], Feb 1, 2007
    #7
  8. John R

    catwalker63 Guest

    ".rev [MCT]" <> prattled ceaselessly in
    news:#:

    > which I said previously.
    >


    And very well, I might add. Bravo.

    --
    Catwalker
    aka Pu$$y Feet
    BS, MCSA, MCSE
    MCNGP #43
    www.mcngp.com
    faq.mcngp.com
    "Definitely not wearing any underwear."
     
    catwalker63, Feb 1, 2007
    #8
  9. John R

    John R Guest

    ".rev [MCT]" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > Right, you can use 70-620 as the Client Elective for the MCSA/MCSE like
    > you can 70-210 which is much older technology. 620 is more like 270 than
    > either of the MCDST exams, the reason they aren't used as client electives
    > is because they test a completely different skill-set. Tech support and
    > administration are two different worlds, and the fact you may do both has
    > no baring on that fact. As for why its an elective for the MCSA and not
    > the MCSE is because an administrator has more chance to be involved with
    > tech support than the MCSE by definition, which I said previously.
    >
    > --
    > .rev



    Ummm, you can use 70-620 as the elective like 70-227, 70-228, 70-229.
    You cannot use 70-620 instead of 70-210 or 70-270.

    Therein makes my point, and therein lies my confusion. :)

    Just to be accurate.
     
    John R, Feb 1, 2007
    #9
  10. John R wrote:
    > ".rev [MCT]" <> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    >> Right, you can use 70-620 as the Client Elective for the MCSA/MCSE like
    >> you can 70-210 which is much older technology. 620 is more like 270 than
    >> either of the MCDST exams, the reason they aren't used as client electives
    >> is because they test a completely different skill-set. Tech support and
    >> administration are two different worlds, and the fact you may do both has
    >> no baring on that fact. As for why its an elective for the MCSA and not
    >> the MCSE is because an administrator has more chance to be involved with
    >> tech support than the MCSE by definition, which I said previously.
    >>
    >> --
    >> .rev

    >
    >
    > Ummm, you can use 70-620 as the elective like 70-227, 70-228, 70-229.
    > You cannot use 70-620 instead of 70-210 or 70-270.
    >
    > Therein makes my point, and therein lies my confusion. :)
    >
    > Just to be accurate.
    >
    >

    True, I have read conflicting information on the MS web site about just
    this subject. One source says the 70-620 CAN be used instead of 70-270,
    and one source does not show the 70-620 as an allowable client OS exam
    for MCSE. This is why my client OS exam is last on my list to get for
    the MCSA. Once it is 100% clear I will decide which to take.
     
    Red Swingline Stapler, Feb 1, 2007
    #10
  11. John R wrote:
    > Ummm, you can use 70-620 as the elective like 70-227, 70-228, 70-229.
    > You cannot use 70-620 instead of 70-210 or 70-270.
    >
    > Therein makes my point, and therein lies my confusion. :)
    >
    > Just to be accurate.


    Just to be accurate: that's wrong :) See
    http://blogs.msdn.com/trika/archive...ive-and-other-faq-about-vista-cert-exams.aspx
    for more information.

    Jonathan


    --
    "What a funny reply, but Professional qualities are not measured by
    turban or sombrero but with work, expereince, Qualifications. "
     
    Jonathan Roberts, Feb 2, 2007
    #11
  12. John R

    John R Guest

    "Jonathan Roberts" <> wrote in message
    news:Op$ZV$...
    > John R wrote:
    >> Ummm, you can use 70-620 as the elective like 70-227, 70-228, 70-229.
    >> You cannot use 70-620 instead of 70-210 or 70-270.
    >>
    >> Therein makes my point, and therein lies my confusion. :)
    >>
    >> Just to be accurate.

    >
    > Just to be accurate: that's wrong :) See
    > http://blogs.msdn.com/trika/archive...ive-and-other-faq-about-vista-cert-exams.aspx
    > for more information.
    >
    > Jonathan


    My certification planner would beg to differ with you.
     
    John R, Feb 2, 2007
    #12
  13. John R

    John R Guest

    "Jonathan Roberts" <> wrote in message
    news:Op$ZV$...
    > John R wrote:
    >> Ummm, you can use 70-620 as the elective like 70-227, 70-228, 70-229.
    >> You cannot use 70-620 instead of 70-210 or 70-270.
    >>
    >> Therein makes my point, and therein lies my confusion. :)
    >>
    >> Just to be accurate.

    >
    > Just to be accurate: that's wrong :) See
    > http://blogs.msdn.com/trika/archive...ive-and-other-faq-about-vista-cert-exams.aspx
    > for more information.
    >
    > Jonathan
    >


    The blog says it can be used as either, but not both.
    But, like I said, my certification planner only shows it as a general
    elective, and not a client elective.

    Since the cert planner is on Microsoft's website, I tend to take it as
    gospel until proven otherwise.

    Isn't this fun :)
     
    John R, Feb 2, 2007
    #13
  14. John R

    John R Guest

    Here is a pic...
    http://users.zoominternet.net/~jsr813/cert.JPG

    The administering group only shows 210 and 270. 620 is listed in the
    general electives.
    I understand the blog has a good source, but this is what I am going by.

    Either way, the blog still proves my point that they will accept 620 as a
    general elective which is only a single test, and not MCDST which is two
    tests that goes further into XP with both configuration and user application
    support. For MCDST, you need 271 and 272, and if you look at the exam
    guide, the syllabus for 271 is very similar to 270.

    Oh well, no sense beating a dead horse. Like I said to begin with, I just
    want to understand why the double standard.
     
    John R, Feb 2, 2007
    #14
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