So it's all his fault

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Dec 5, 2007.

  1. So, David Bradley
    <http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9046742>
    is the guy in the original IBM PC project who invented the ctrl-alt-del
    sequence.

    I always thought it was such a stupid idea. Other machines--like the Apple
    Mac--had a hard-reset button, that was wired straight through to a pin on
    the CPU. That was guaranteed to always work, no matter how badly wedged the
    machine got. Yet IBM and the other Microsoft-compatibles had this lame key
    sequence, that had to be mediated by the keyboard handler in the BIOS or
    OS. Which meant that, if your system's interrupt handling was sufficiently
    badly borked, the key sequence wouldn't work, and you had to power-cycle
    the machine anyway.

    Not to mention that memory-resident viruses would often intercept this key
    sequence to ensure they could not be wiped from memory by hitting it.

    Luckily some makers of Microsoft-compatible machines have recently cottoned
    on to the usefulness of having a hard-reset button. But not all.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Dec 5, 2007
    #1
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  2. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    RL Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > So, David Bradley
    > <http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9046742>
    > is the guy in the original IBM PC project who invented the ctrl-alt-del
    > sequence.
    >
    > I always thought it was such a stupid idea. Other machines--like the Apple
    > Mac--had a hard-reset button, that was wired straight through to a pin on
    > the CPU. That was guaranteed to always work, no matter how badly wedged the
    > machine got. Yet IBM and the other Microsoft-compatibles had this lame key
    > sequence, that had to be mediated by the keyboard handler in the BIOS or
    > OS. Which meant that, if your system's interrupt handling was sufficiently
    > badly borked, the key sequence wouldn't work, and you had to power-cycle
    > the machine anyway.
    >
    > Not to mention that memory-resident viruses would often intercept this key
    > sequence to ensure they could not be wiped from memory by hitting it.
    >
    > Luckily some makers of Microsoft-compatible machines have recently cottoned
    > on to the usefulness of having a hard-reset button. But not all.


    The CPU is not the only component in a PC that needs resetting. Once a
    PC gets in such a pickle that Ctrl+Alt+Del or even the reset button
    won't do the trick, a power cycle is probably a good idea. It isn't
    uncommon to have to completely turn off the PC to fix problems with
    hardware that doesn't reset by using a soft reset or power down.

    Oddly enough, while I haven't noticed any new PC featuring a hard reset,
    I have noticed a trend away from reset buttons on the PC. If you need to
    reset, you have to use the push-and-hold method to power down. Of
    course, this often doesn't work.

    Another reason Ctrl+Alt+Del is a good thing, is it gives you an
    interrupt that occurs in direct response to user actions. Windows
    exploits this, allowing you to bring up a window with key options (or
    Taskmanager on XP when not on a domain), and will generally work quite
    well even when the PC is under high load, and navigating through the
    Start Menu is a painful process.

    RL
     
    RL, Dec 5, 2007
    #2
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  3. In article <fj5dha$jre$>, RL did write:

    > The CPU is not the only component in a PC that needs resetting.


    Everything else that needs resetting will be reset by the ROM or BIOS code
    that gets invoked as a result of hitting the reset button.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Dec 5, 2007
    #3
  4. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Dave Taylor Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote in
    news:fj5fmf$l8m$:

    > Everything else that needs resetting will be reset by the ROM or BIOS
    > code that gets invoked as a result of hitting the reset button.


    Except the power supply that feeds the pxe nic.
    OFF AT THE WALL fixes so many things it is not funny any more.

    --
    Ciao, Dave
     
    Dave Taylor, Dec 5, 2007
    #4
  5. In article <fj5fmf$l8m$>, _zealand
    says...
    > In article <fj5dha$jre$>, RL did write:
    >
    > > The CPU is not the only component in a PC that needs resetting.

    >
    > Everything else that needs resetting will be reset by the ROM or BIOS code
    > that gets invoked as a result of hitting the reset button.
    >


    Wrong. I have several times struck the situation where only a complete power-
    down (e.g. disconnect at the wall/ups for 10 secs+) would reset a thoroughly
    bollixed up machine completely. Don't forget that the 5V rail is ALWAYS on in
    an ATX system, some memory-states are preserved through soft shutdown, soft
    reset and even hard reset.

    And, by the way, all my systems since the mid-80ies have had a hard reset
    button. Every single one of them. It's simply a question of not buying cheap-
    shit cases. And every one of my motherboards had a couple pins to connect it
    to.

    -P.

    --
    =========================================
    firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com
     
    Peter Huebner, Dec 5, 2007
    #5
  6. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    E. Scrooge Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:fj5bq2$idl$...
    > So, David Bradley
    > <http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9046742>
    > is the guy in the original IBM PC project who invented the ctrl-alt-del
    > sequence.
    >
    > I always thought it was such a stupid idea. Other machines--like the Apple
    > Mac--had a hard-reset button, that was wired straight through to a pin on
    > the CPU. That was guaranteed to always work, no matter how badly wedged
    > the
    > machine got. Yet IBM and the other Microsoft-compatibles had this lame key
    > sequence, that had to be mediated by the keyboard handler in the BIOS or
    > OS. Which meant that, if your system's interrupt handling was sufficiently
    > badly borked, the key sequence wouldn't work, and you had to power-cycle
    > the machine anyway.
    >
    > Not to mention that memory-resident viruses would often intercept this key
    > sequence to ensure they could not be wiped from memory by hitting it.
    >
    > Luckily some makers of Microsoft-compatible machines have recently
    > cottoned
    > on to the usefulness of having a hard-reset button. But not all.


    You're years behind.
    Individual programs can be pin pointed and shut down if no longer working
    for some reason. No need to shut down the PC at all.


    E. Scrooge
     
    E. Scrooge, Dec 5, 2007
    #6
  7. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    thingy Guest

    E. Scrooge wrote:
    8><-------

    the usefulness of having a hard-reset button. But not all.
    >
    > You're years behind.
    > Individual programs can be pin pointed and shut down if no longer working
    > for some reason. No need to shut down the PC at all.
    >
    >
    > E. Scrooge
    >
    >


    Ah a linux convert.....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Dec 6, 2007
    #7
  8. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    thingy Guest

    Peter Huebner wrote:
    > In article <fj5fmf$l8m$>, _zealand
    > says...
    >> In article <fj5dha$jre$>, RL did write:
    >>
    >>> The CPU is not the only component in a PC that needs resetting.

    >> Everything else that needs resetting will be reset by the ROM or BIOS code
    >> that gets invoked as a result of hitting the reset button.
    >>

    >
    > Wrong. I have several times struck the situation where only a complete power-
    > down (e.g. disconnect at the wall/ups for 10 secs+) would reset a thoroughly
    > bollixed up machine completely. Don't forget that the 5V rail is ALWAYS on in
    > an ATX system, some memory-states are preserved through soft shutdown, soft
    > reset and even hard reset.


    My experience of this situation is the earlier and cheap ATX power
    supplies somehow did not interrupt some power paths to the motherboard
    totally so the machine's OS would crash but not reboot, just hang
    there...pulling the power cord or pulling the 20/24pin connector off the
    motherboard would fix it....cant say Ive seen that issue for a few years...

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Dec 6, 2007
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    E. Scrooge Guest

    "thingy" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > E. Scrooge wrote:
    > 8><-------
    >
    > the usefulness of having a hard-reset button. But not all.
    >>
    >> You're years behind.
    >> Individual programs can be pin pointed and shut down if no longer working
    >> for some reason. No need to shut down the PC at all.
    >>
    >>
    >> E. Scrooge

    >
    > Ah a linux convert.....
    >
    > regards
    >
    > Thing


    Task Manager.
    XP.
    Capable of running thousands of non Microsoft programs that Linux can't.

    But lets be completely fair. If the ONLY thing you ever want is Linux
    then obviously there is nothing better than Linux.

    Do you realise that most programs XP owners actually use aren't supplied by
    Microsoft?

    The next levels are well above the basic level of the OS.

    If you haven't got a hardware then you might as well not bother at all.

    E. Scrooge
     
    E. Scrooge, Dec 7, 2007
    #9
  10. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Craig Shore Guest

    On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 00:12:54 +1300, "E. Scrooge" <scrooge@*shot.co.nz (*sling)>
    wrote:

    >
    >"Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    >news:fj5bq2$idl$...
    >> So, David Bradley
    >> <http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9046742>
    >> is the guy in the original IBM PC project who invented the ctrl-alt-del
    >> sequence.
    >>
    >> I always thought it was such a stupid idea. Other machines--like the Apple
    >> Mac--had a hard-reset button, that was wired straight through to a pin on
    >> the CPU. That was guaranteed to always work, no matter how badly wedged
    >> the
    >> machine got. Yet IBM and the other Microsoft-compatibles had this lame key
    >> sequence, that had to be mediated by the keyboard handler in the BIOS or
    >> OS. Which meant that, if your system's interrupt handling was sufficiently
    >> badly borked, the key sequence wouldn't work, and you had to power-cycle
    >> the machine anyway.
    >>
    >> Not to mention that memory-resident viruses would often intercept this key
    >> sequence to ensure they could not be wiped from memory by hitting it.
    >>
    >> Luckily some makers of Microsoft-compatible machines have recently
    >> cottoned
    >> on to the usefulness of having a hard-reset button. But not all.

    >
    >You're years behind.
    >Individual programs can be pin pointed and shut down if no longer working
    >for some reason. No need to shut down the PC at all.


    That's what I was thinking when I read that. Killing the unresponsive
    application almost always works for me, no need to reboot.
     
    Craig Shore, Dec 7, 2007
    #10
  11. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Bobs Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > So, David Bradley
    > <http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9046742>
    > is the guy in the original IBM PC project who invented the ctrl-alt-del
    > sequence.
    >
    > I always thought it was such a stupid idea. Other machines--like the Apple
    > Mac--had a hard-reset button, that was wired straight through to a pin on
    > the CPU. That was guaranteed to always work, no matter how badly wedged the
    > machine got. Yet IBM and the other Microsoft-compatibles had this lame key
    > sequence, that had to be mediated by the keyboard handler in the BIOS or
    > OS. Which meant that, if your system's interrupt handling was sufficiently
    > badly borked, the key sequence wouldn't work, and you had to power-cycle
    > the machine anyway.


    You can right click on the taskbar and select "task manager" and close
    the dodgy process/application you know. Oh wait, you don't know.

    >
    > Not to mention that memory-resident viruses would often intercept this key
    > sequence to ensure they could not be wiped from memory by hitting it.
    >
    > Luckily some makers of Microsoft-compatible machines have recently cottoned
    > on to the usefulness of having a hard-reset button. But not all.
     
    Bobs, Dec 7, 2007
    #11
  12. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Dave Taylor Guest

    Craig Shore <> wrote in
    news::

    > That's what I was thinking when I read that. Killing the unresponsive
    > application almost always works for me, no need to reboot.


    You can admit that you have rebooted though. It is not a sin to reboot.
    Even enterprise clusters get rebooted.
    Rare, but it really does help when everything else is tried and a complete
    power down of the switches, servers etc, does fix things. It has been
    documented because I read about it. Still rare, but not unheard of.

    --
    Ciao, Dave
     
    Dave Taylor, Dec 7, 2007
    #12
  13. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Craig Shore Guest

    On 7 Dec 2007 23:31:40 +1300, Dave Taylor <> wrote:

    >Craig Shore <> wrote in
    >news::
    >
    >> That's what I was thinking when I read that. Killing the unresponsive
    >> application almost always works for me, no need to reboot.

    >
    >You can admit that you have rebooted though. It is not a sin to reboot.
    >Even enterprise clusters get rebooted.
    >Rare, but it really does help when everything else is tried and a complete
    >power down of the switches, servers etc, does fix things. It has been
    >documented because I read about it. Still rare, but not unheard of.


    Yes, of course I do. What I was meaning is you don't need to reboot the machine
    every time an app goes wrong, i.e. there is nothing wrong with having the
    CTRL-ALT-DEL option.
     
    Craig Shore, Dec 7, 2007
    #13
  14. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Enkidu Guest

    Bobs wrote:
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >> So, David Bradley
    >> <http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9046742>
    >>
    >> is the guy in the original IBM PC project who invented the ctrl-alt-del
    >> sequence.
    >>
    >> I always thought it was such a stupid idea. Other machines--like the
    >> Apple
    >> Mac--had a hard-reset button, that was wired straight through to a pin on
    >> the CPU. That was guaranteed to always work, no matter how badly
    >> wedged the
    >> machine got. Yet IBM and the other Microsoft-compatibles had this lame
    >> key
    >> sequence, that had to be mediated by the keyboard handler in the BIOS or
    >> OS. Which meant that, if your system's interrupt handling was
    >> sufficiently
    >> badly borked, the key sequence wouldn't work, and you had to power-cycle
    >> the machine anyway.

    >
    > You can right click on the taskbar and select "task manager" and close
    > the dodgy process/application you know. Oh wait, you don't know.
    >

    Most times a click on the taskbar does nothing. What do you do then?

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    Have you ever noticed that if something is advertised as 'amusing' or
    'hilarious', it usually isn't?
     
    Enkidu, Dec 7, 2007
    #14
  15. In article <>, Craig Shore did
    write:

    > What I was meaning is you don't need to reboot the
    > machine every time an app goes wrong, i.e. there is nothing wrong with
    > having the CTRL-ALT-DEL option.


    1) That's not what ctrl-alt-del originally meant (in the context of this
    thread).
    2) On Unix/Linux-type operating systems, you don't need an arcane key
    sequence to kill processes.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Dec 7, 2007
    #15
  16. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Enkidu Guest

    E. Scrooge wrote:
    >
    > Do you realise that most programs XP owners actually use aren't supplied by
    > Microsoft?
    >

    Don't be silly. You can't install programs not supplied by Microsoft
    onto a Microsoft system.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    Have you ever noticed that if something is advertised as 'amusing' or
    'hilarious', it usually isn't?
     
    Enkidu, Dec 7, 2007
    #16
  17. In <fjck3h$9fn$> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In article <>, Craig Shore
    > did write:
    >
    >> What I was meaning is you don't need to reboot the
    >> machine every time an app goes wrong, i.e. there is nothing wrong
    >> with having the CTRL-ALT-DEL option.

    >
    > 1) That's not what ctrl-alt-del originally meant (in the context of
    > this thread). 2) On Unix/Linux-type operating systems, you don't need
    > an arcane key sequence to kill processes.


    Mac OS X uses command-option-escape for force quitting user applications (
    it's shortcut to selecting 'Force Quit...' from the Apple menu, but
    necessary if you're running a full-screen app like a game). If you need
    to force quit another process you can open the supplied Activity Monitor
    application, and of course if you don't mind learning arcane key
    sequences you can also use the kill command via a terminal.

    I realise there's not a lot of standardisation among the various Unix
    and Linux GUIs, but what do those systems generally use?

    --
    * Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand -> http://roger.geek.nz
    * PS/2 Mouse Adapter for vintage Apple II or Mac
    * SCART RGB video cable for Apple IIGS
     
    Roger Johnstone, Dec 8, 2007
    #17
  18. On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:26:49 +0000, Roger Johnstone wrote:

    > I realise there's not a lot of standardisation among the various Unix
    > and Linux GUIs, but what do those systems generally use?


    IIRC (but its been more than a year since I needed to use it) KDE allows a
    user to kill applications by using [shift-ctrl-delete] and then
    left-clicking on the application that you are wanting to kill.

    Otherwise login to a console (or use Konsole) and use the Kill command.
    This way you can control how the application is killed.

    Dunno about Gnome - I don't use Gnome all that much as a complete GUI.


    --
    Jonathan Walker

    "The IT industry landscape is littered with the dead
    dreams of people who once trusted Microsoft."
     
    Jonathan Walker, Dec 8, 2007
    #18
  19. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Max Burke Guest


    > Enkidu scribbled:


    >> Bobs wrote:
    >> You can right click on the taskbar and select "task manager" and close
    >> the dodgy process/application you know. Oh wait, you don't know.


    > Most times a click on the taskbar does nothing. What do you do then?


    Work out why it's not working and fix it?

    It works 99% of the time when I have an application freeze the system.

    Sometimes just starting task manager is enough to unfreeze the
    application/system, or at the very least allow XP to display the
    applications error message with the usual "X has encountered a problem and
    needs to close" programme termination message.

    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Dec 8, 2007
    #19
  20. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Bobs Guest

    Enkidu wrote:
    > Bobs wrote:
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>> So, David Bradley
    >>> <http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9046742>
    >>>
    >>> is the guy in the original IBM PC project who invented the ctrl-alt-del
    >>> sequence.
    >>>
    >>> I always thought it was such a stupid idea. Other machines--like the
    >>> Apple
    >>> Mac--had a hard-reset button, that was wired straight through to a
    >>> pin on
    >>> the CPU. That was guaranteed to always work, no matter how badly
    >>> wedged the
    >>> machine got. Yet IBM and the other Microsoft-compatibles had this
    >>> lame key
    >>> sequence, that had to be mediated by the keyboard handler in the BIOS or
    >>> OS. Which meant that, if your system's interrupt handling was
    >>> sufficiently
    >>> badly borked, the key sequence wouldn't work, and you had to power-cycle
    >>> the machine anyway.

    >>
    >> You can right click on the taskbar and select "task manager" and close
    >> the dodgy process/application you know. Oh wait, you don't know.
    >>

    > Most times a click on the taskbar does nothing.


    Most times? LOL, of course it does. Keep telling yourself that.

    > What do you do then?


    Think ahead and put a shortcut for it on your desktop? That said, ever
    since the days of Windows 2000, I can only remember hard resetting the
    system a few times. Every other time Task Manager does the trick. That's
    stable enough for me.

    Ubuntu on the other hand, is an unstable pile of junk. I cannot even
    install the thing on one PC. The video settings are fucked up at the
    install menu, it's all hazy and unreadable. I've tried ages to get the
    bloody thing to work.

    Runs nicely on this PC tho, to be fair I suppose.

    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff
    >
     
    Bobs, Dec 8, 2007
    #20
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