Slingshot Broadband

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Dec 19, 2009.

  1. I’ve got a friend who’s been on Slingtshot’s dialup service for some years
    now. He’s never had any complaints—says they’ve looked after him very well.

    Now he’s looking at their broadband offerings
    <http://slingshot.co.nz/BroadbandPlans.aspx>. I see they will offer free
    connection and ADSL modem, provided he signs up for 12 months, which he’s
    comfortable with. The modem mentioned
    <http://slingshot.co.nz/GettingBroadbandSetup.aspx> is a “Dynalink One Port
    Modemâ€, which as far as I can tell is either Ethernet-and-USB-capable
    <http://www.dynalink.co.nz/cms/index.php?page=adsl2-modem-router-rta1320> or
    Ethernet only <http://www.dynalink.co.nz/cms/index.php?page=rta1320e>.

    Anyone else had experience signing up for this?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Dec 19, 2009
    #1
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  2. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    PeeCee Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:hghq3l$dda$...
    > I’ve got a friend who’s been on Slingtshot’s dialup service for some years
    > now. He’s never had any complaints—says they’ve looked after him very
    > well.
    >
    > Now he’s looking at their broadband offerings
    > <http://slingshot.co.nz/BroadbandPlans.aspx>. I see they will offer free
    > connection and ADSL modem, provided he signs up for 12 months, which he’s
    > comfortable with. The modem mentioned
    > <http://slingshot.co.nz/GettingBroadbandSetup.aspx> is a “Dynalink One
    > Port
    > Modemâ€, which as far as I can tell is either Ethernet-and-USB-capable
    > <http://www.dynalink.co.nz/cms/index.php?page=adsl2-modem-router-rta1320>
    > or
    > Ethernet only <http://www.dynalink.co.nz/cms/index.php?page=rta1320e>.
    >
    > Anyone else had experience signing up for this?




    Lawrence

    Based on the service rendered to a client of mine last week, tell your
    friend to run as far as he can from Slingshot.

    Over some 3/4 weeks Slingshot was completely and utterly unable to restore
    my clients broadband after their extended overseas holiday.
    The raft of excuses, non action and bulldust only went to emphasise just how
    bad they are.
    Then there's the technical (in)competence of the CSO's .
    Did you know that D-Link DSL-604T's "forget their settings" if left
    unpowered for more than 3 months !!!!!!
    DSL-604T's are well known for that emphasised the CSO !!!!!!

    Jezzzz if I'd have been there that CSO would have got his ear chewed.

    Interesting to note since that client changed to Clear their BB speed has
    noticeably gone up.
    Slingshot was supposed to be 256 Kb/s down, but I never saw any better than
    100Kb/s

    Dynalink BB modems
    Crap (tm) Rubbish, bad news, die at around 12-18 months.
    The RTA 1320 and it's 4 port sibling run 'way' to hot and fry themselves.
    I have a box full of these dead/flakey Dynalinks in the store room, must get
    round to throwing them out.
    Having said that the one's on Slingshot's website look slightly different,
    'may' be they have bought out a new model.
    Never the less, I would be getting a written 5 year warranty out of them
    before accepting one.

    Best
    Paul.
    PeeCee, Dec 19, 2009
    #2
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  3. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Geoff M Guest

    On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:59:16 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <_zealand> wrote:

    >I’ve got a friend who’s been on Slingtshot’s dialup service for some years
    >now. He’s never had any complaints—says they’ve looked after him very well.
    >
    >Now he’s looking at their broadband offerings
    ><http://slingshot.co.nz/BroadbandPlans.aspx>. I see they will offer free
    >connection and ADSL modem, provided he signs up for 12 months, which he’s
    >comfortable with. The modem mentioned
    ><http://slingshot.co.nz/GettingBroadbandSetup.aspx> is a “Dynalink One Port
    >Modem”, which as far as I can tell is either Ethernet-and-USB-capable
    ><http://www.dynalink.co.nz/cms/index.php?page=adsl2-modem-router-rta1320> or
    >Ethernet only <http://www.dynalink.co.nz/cms/index.php?page=rta1320e>.
    >
    >Anyone else had experience signing up for this?


    Run, don't walk as far and as fast form Slingshot as you can. I made
    the mistake of signing up for 12 months with them. From the day it was
    changed over, I had never ending problems with disconnections and
    really, really slow speed (like dial up speed) and congestion form
    overselling the bandwidth. They insisted that it was problem at our
    end - first thing turn of your modem... o r "it is a fault wiht your
    network". No, the disagniostic
    Disconnections lasted for days - the record was 5 days as i recall. My
    wife had to use teh library internet and I used the work connection.
    I tried different modems - I had 3 including one brand new, and one
    well proven old one as well as the Dynalink they supplied.
    After 8 months, I had enough and went into their office, dumped the
    "free" dynalink POS on their desk and got them to sign receipt of it
    and letter containing the magic words "consumer guarantees Act".
    Changed to Packing Shed, and never looked back. Speed doubled
    overnight and rock solid.
    They never return emails of their help desk. Calling them takes at
    least an hour and is a total waste of time. Once I gave them the
    ultimatimatum, I think they may have got the idea I was Not Happy, and
    I finally got someone call me to try and get me to stay. I laughed at
    them.
    Talking to a friend yesterday, he had similar problems.
    Geoff M, Dec 19, 2009
    #3
  4. Thanks for the comments so far. I’ve been checking the websites for various
    ISPs. So far I’ve found that Telecom and Orcon offer basic plans for $39.95
    a month including ADSL modem and line filters (though Orcon says it’s
    renting you the modem). I went to Vodafone, my own ISP, and all I could see
    is bundled plans including phone service. Same sort of thing at
    TelstraClear.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Dec 19, 2009
    #4
  5. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    PeeCee Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:hgjotp$ie6$...
    > Thanks for the comments so far. I’ve been checking the websites for
    > various
    > ISPs. So far I’ve found that Telecom and Orcon offer basic plans for
    > $39.95
    > a month including ADSL modem and line filters (though Orcon says it’s
    > renting you the modem). I went to Vodafone, my own ISP, and all I could
    > see
    > is bundled plans including phone service. Same sort of thing at
    > TelstraClear.




    Hi again Lawrence.

    Vodafone: bundled deals.

    Yep that is all you'll get.
    I had a customer on Vodafone (Wave) dialup that wanted to get Broadband
    The customer 'did not' want to change her phone provider just get Broadband.
    She had a Wave email address, so just wanted stay with Vodafone but get
    'faster' internet.

    I ended up (on her behalf) talking to a couple of levels up from the
    standard CSO.
    The guy was quite sympathetic and tried to set her up with a BB only deal
    but Vodafone's system simply wouldn't allow him to do so.

    Needless to say she was not going to be dictated to by Vodafone and promptly
    instructed me to set up a BB with someone else.

    I still can't fathom Vodafone's logic.
    To me a reliable, no hastle, customer offering to up their spend 300% should
    be grabbed with both hands.
    Throwing the customer out altogether seems totally illogical.
    Stoopid is the word that comes to mind.

    Best
    Paul.
    PeeCee, Dec 20, 2009
    #5
  6. In message <hgjslb$40a$>, PeeCee wrote:

    > Vodafone: bundled deals.
    >
    > Yep that is all you'll get.
    > I had a customer on Vodafone (Wave) dialup that wanted to get Broadband
    > The customer 'did not' want to change her phone provider just get
    > Broadband. She had a Wave email address, so just wanted stay with Vodafone
    > but get 'faster' internet.


    I started with Wave, too. I moved up to broadband when they were just
    reselling Telecom’s JetStream (this was before unbundling). Ah, the days of
    a 1GiB cap and 10¢ for each extra MiB...

    > I still can't fathom Vodafone's logic.


    I think it’s pretty simple: profits. There probably isn’t much profit in
    offering just a broadband connection any more. The UK went through this sort
    of thing when they unbundled, years before we did.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Dec 20, 2009
    #6
  7. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    EMB Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > Thanks for the comments so far. I’ve been checking the websites for various
    > ISPs. So far I’ve found that Telecom and Orcon offer basic plans for $39.95
    > a month including ADSL modem and line filters (though Orcon says it’s
    > renting you the modem). I went to Vodafone, my own ISP, and all I could see
    > is bundled plans including phone service. Same sort of thing at
    > TelstraClear.


    Depending on where your friend is located, Telecom's "Total Home"
    package (which is bundled) may well be the best value available.
    Performance is certainly acceptable as well.
    EMB, Dec 20, 2009
    #7
  8. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Gordon Guest

    On 2009-12-20, PeeCee <> wrote:
    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:hgjotp$ie6$...
    >> Thanks for the comments so far. I?ve been checking the websites for
    >> various
    >> ISPs. So far I?ve found that Telecom and Orcon offer basic plans for
    >> $39.95
    >> a month including ADSL modem and line filters (though Orcon says it?s
    >> renting you the modem). I went to Vodafone, my own ISP, and all I could
    >> see
    >> is bundled plans including phone service. Same sort of thing at
    >> TelstraClear.

    >
    >
    >
    > Hi again Lawrence.
    >
    > Vodafone: bundled deals.
    >
    > Yep that is all you'll get.
    > I had a customer on Vodafone (Wave) dialup that wanted to get Broadband
    > The customer 'did not' want to change her phone provider just get Broadband.
    > She had a Wave email address, so just wanted stay with Vodafone but get
    > 'faster' internet.
    >
    > I ended up (on her behalf) talking to a couple of levels up from the
    > standard CSO.
    > The guy was quite sympathetic and tried to set her up with a BB only deal
    > but Vodafone's system simply wouldn't allow him to do so.
    >
    > Needless to say she was not going to be dictated to by Vodafone and promptly
    > instructed me to set up a BB with someone else.
    >
    > I still can't fathom Vodafone's logic.


    They think people are dumb. You know both things are on the same bill. It is
    just that bit extra to have...

    They, the big business thinks that because the customers wants x then they
    will take y, z and A in a bundle.

    Like the switching between power providers, or lack there of it is a case of
    the customers in droves saying take your bundle and shove it on your bottom
    line.

    Would you like fries with that? , another example.

    Offers such as this have me moving on with the exchange of money. There are
    companies around who realise that selling only want the customers wants is
    good for business. People tend to say good things about you and come back
    because you give great service.

    Big places just want numbers. And you are often only one.



    > To me a reliable, no hastle, customer offering to up their spend 300% should
    > be grabbed with both hands.
    > Throwing the customer out altogether seems totally illogical.
    > Stoopid is the word that comes to mind.
    >
    > Best
    > Paul.
    >
    Gordon, Dec 20, 2009
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Adam Guest

    <snip>

    This is interesting stuff, NZ Broadband options.

    Vodaphone requires a phone lock-in,
    Slingshot too.
    Orcon, not sure, seem not to,
    Telecom prefers a phone lock-in ?

    I mean, after Mr Key promising highspeed broadband
    everywhere before the election, and then Mr Brash
    seeing no advantage in persuing it.

    Do we have a clear preferred provider at this stage ?
    Orcon seems to be a contender.
    Adam, Dec 20, 2009
    #9
  10. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Somewhere on teh intarwebs Adam wrote:
    > <snip>
    >
    > This is interesting stuff, NZ Broadband options.
    >
    > Vodaphone requires a phone lock-in,
    > Slingshot too.
    > Orcon, not sure, seem not to,
    > Telecom prefers a phone lock-in ?
    >
    > I mean, after Mr Key promising highspeed broadband
    > everywhere before the election, and then Mr Brash
    > seeing no advantage in persuing it.
    >
    > Do we have a clear preferred provider at this stage ?
    > Orcon seems to be a contender.


    I still think that Actrix is NZ's best ISP (and I've tried a few).
    --
    Shaun.

    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's
    warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchet, 'Jingo'.
    ~misfit~, Dec 20, 2009
    #10
  11. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Adam Guest

    ~misfit~ wrote:

    > Somewhere on teh intarwebs Adam wrote:
    >> <snip>
    >>
    >> This is interesting stuff, NZ Broadband options.
    >>
    >> Vodaphone requires a phone lock-in,
    >> Slingshot too.
    >> Orcon, not sure, seem not to,
    >> Telecom prefers a phone lock-in ?
    >>
    >> I mean, after Mr Key promising highspeed broadband
    >> everywhere before the election, and then Mr Brash
    >> seeing no advantage in persuing it.
    >>
    >> Do we have a clear preferred provider at this stage ?
    >> Orcon seems to be a contender.

    >
    > I still think that Actrix is NZ's best ISP (and I've tried a few).


    Thanks for the tip. I wonder if they do fringe
    towns - I'll check, should do I expect, as Orcon
    is here.

    So by best I'll be hoping for; no phone lock-in,
    good price vs upload/download quotas, flexible
    with supplying a bb-modem, good relationship with
    installation company. I suppose. Will look into.

    Re: Slingshot. Buddy here had a free Christmas give-away
    of some quota last week. He had a helluva time getting
    started with their Help desk. A crook modem in the
    post straight-off. Has stuck with them though.

    Thats a similar drawback as with banks, electricity
    companies, etc. Building up the momentum to change
    provider. All the bigger if phone lock-ins come
    into play. Simply barely enough competition ?

    OT: Another friend had their PC fail, and Noel Leeming
    want to send it overseas for repair, which will take
    around 4 weeks all up. Incredible.
    Adam, Dec 21, 2009
    #11
  12. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    EMB Guest

    Adam wrote:

    > OT: Another friend had their PC fail, and Noel Leeming
    > want to send it overseas for repair, which will take
    > around 4 weeks all up. Incredible.


    That is a good time to start quoting the CGA at them - unless they can
    repair in a reasonable timeframe they either refund your friend or
    provide him with a new PC. There is *no* way that 4 weeks is a
    reasonable timeframe for the warranty repair of a PC, and don't listen
    to any bullshit about "having to get parts" as they are legally
    responsible for holding a stock of parts for at least the first couple
    of years. HP and Lenovo occasionally fly PC parts into NZ for our
    warranty repairs, but normally provide the parts in less than 24 hours
    (we are approved to fit the parts ourselves).

    Incidentally, what make is this failed PC?
    EMB, Dec 21, 2009
    #12
  13. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Somewhere on teh intarwebs Adam wrote:
    > ~misfit~ wrote:
    >
    >> Somewhere on teh intarwebs Adam wrote:
    >>> <snip>
    >>>
    >>> This is interesting stuff, NZ Broadband options.
    >>>
    >>> Vodaphone requires a phone lock-in,
    >>> Slingshot too.
    >>> Orcon, not sure, seem not to,
    >>> Telecom prefers a phone lock-in ?
    >>>
    >>> I mean, after Mr Key promising highspeed broadband
    >>> everywhere before the election, and then Mr Brash
    >>> seeing no advantage in persuing it.
    >>>
    >>> Do we have a clear preferred provider at this stage ?
    >>> Orcon seems to be a contender.

    >>
    >> I still think that Actrix is NZ's best ISP (and I've tried a few).

    >
    > Thanks for the tip. I wonder if they do fringe
    > towns - I'll check, should do I expect, as Orcon
    > is here.
    >
    > So by best I'll be hoping for; no phone lock-in,
    > good price vs upload/download quotas, flexible
    > with supplying a bb-modem, good relationship with
    > installation company. I suppose. Will look into.


    Actrix give you $10/month off your broadband bill if you have your tolls
    with them (you don't even have to make a call, as long as they're routed
    through Actrix. Last month I didn't make a single toll call, not for the
    first time). At the time I moved over their toll rates were something like a
    quarter of what Telescum were charging so for me it was a win/win.

    LOL, incidently, about a year after I moved my tolls to Actrix (average
    $5/month spend I guess, if that) A Telescum drone rang me and said that
    they'd noticed that I no longer had my tolls with them and asked why. I told
    them that Actrix were a shit-load cheaper and they gave me $10 a month off
    my BB as well.

    The drone asked what prices I was paying per minute etc. with Actrix so I
    logged onto their site and quoted the data. After a second or two the
    Telescum drone said "Good news! We can beat them!" I said that's excellent
    news, cheaper tolls and $10 a month off my phone bill. That's when the
    'umm'ming and 'ahh'ing started and ultimately they said no.

    I told them that they were arseholes, that they'd been ripping me for years
    and it was only when I moved my tolls to another company that they even
    attempted to be competitive. As you can guess, that didn't get me anywhere.
    ;-)

    > Re: Slingshot. Buddy here had a free Christmas give-away
    > of some quota last week. He had a helluva time getting
    > started with their Help desk. A crook modem in the
    > post straight-off. Has stuck with them though.
    >
    > Thats a similar drawback as with banks, electricity
    > companies, etc. Building up the momentum to change
    > provider. All the bigger if phone lock-ins come
    > into play. Simply barely enough competition ?
    >
    > OT: Another friend had their PC fail, and Noel Leeming
    > want to send it overseas for repair, which will take
    > around 4 weeks all up. Incredible.


    Like EMB said, unacceptable. CGA mentions 'a timely fashion' which, in the
    case of essential communications equipment could be construed to be two
    days.... A week tops.

    Cheers,
    --
    Shaun.

    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's
    warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchet, 'Jingo'.
    ~misfit~, Dec 21, 2009
    #13
  14. On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:27:28 +1300, "~misfit~"
    <> wrote:

    >Somewhere on teh intarwebs Adam wrote:
    >> <snip>
    >>
    >> This is interesting stuff, NZ Broadband options.
    >>
    >> Vodaphone requires a phone lock-in,
    >> Slingshot too.
    >> Orcon, not sure, seem not to,
    >> Telecom prefers a phone lock-in ?
    >>
    >> I mean, after Mr Key promising highspeed broadband
    >> everywhere before the election, and then Mr Brash
    >> seeing no advantage in persuing it.
    >>
    >> Do we have a clear preferred provider at this stage ?
    >> Orcon seems to be a contender.

    >
    >I still think that Actrix is NZ's best ISP (and I've tried a few).


    Actrix and Inspire are always the top two ISPs in ConsumerNZ surveys.
    This year I believe Actrix is ahead. The next best is always
    significantly lower on the customer satisfaction scale.
    Stephen Worthington, Dec 21, 2009
    #14
  15. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Adam Guest

    EMB wrote:

    > Adam wrote:
    >
    >> OT: Another friend had their PC fail, and Noel Leeming
    >> want to send it overseas for repair, which will take
    >> around 4 weeks all up. Incredible.

    >
    > That is a good time to start quoting the CGA at them - unless they can
    > repair in a reasonable timeframe they either refund your friend or
    > provide him with a new PC. There is *no* way that 4 weeks is a
    > reasonable timeframe for the warranty repair of a PC, and don't listen
    > to any bullshit about "having to get parts" as they are legally
    > responsible for holding a stock of parts for at least the first couple
    > of years. HP and Lenovo occasionally fly PC parts into NZ for our
    > warranty repairs, but normally provide the parts in less than 24 hours
    > (we are approved to fit the parts ourselves).
    >
    > Incidentally, what make is this failed PC?


    An HP "Media Centre"

    Its overseas now, not sure where.
    But I agree, appalling business.
    Adam, Dec 22, 2009
    #15
  16. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    EMB Guest

    Adam wrote:

    >
    > An HP "Media Centre"
    >
    > Its overseas now, not sure where.
    > But I agree, appalling business.


    Overseas my arse. Someone is telling huge porkies - HP warranty repairs
    are done by Visual Group who are based in Auckland with offices in
    Wellington, Christchurch and Palmerston North.

    I would suggest a gentle shit stirring with HP is in order.
    EMB, Dec 22, 2009
    #16
  17. I've tried only 3, but Actrix is streets ahead of the other 2.
    Superb (Kiwi) helpdesk - intelligent, courteous, & they won't give up
    until your problem is fixed. And their deals are as good, or better
    than, most.

    ~misfit~ wrote:
    > Somewhere on teh intarwebs Adam wrote:
    >> <snip>
    >>
    >> This is interesting stuff, NZ Broadband options.
    >>
    >> Vodaphone requires a phone lock-in,
    >> Slingshot too.
    >> Orcon, not sure, seem not to,
    >> Telecom prefers a phone lock-in ?
    >>
    >> I mean, after Mr Key promising highspeed broadband
    >> everywhere before the election, and then Mr Brash
    >> seeing no advantage in persuing it.
    >>
    >> Do we have a clear preferred provider at this stage ?
    >> Orcon seems to be a contender.

    >
    > I still think that Actrix is NZ's best ISP (and I've tried a few).
    aaaaaaaaardvaaaaaark, Dec 22, 2009
    #17
  18. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Somewhere on teh intarwebs aaaaaaaaardvaaaaaark wrote:
    > I've tried only 3, but Actrix is streets ahead of the other 2.
    > Superb (Kiwi) helpdesk - intelligent, courteous, & they won't give up
    > until your problem is fixed. And their deals are as good, or better
    > than, most.


    Maaaate! Seriously, no need to get carried away. I'd agree totally with all
    that you've said above it if wasn't for the risk of droves of people joining
    and then Actrix having 'issues' due to the extra load. I experienced that
    with Orcon way back when.....

    Suffice it to say that Actrix is pretty good. Ok? ;-)
    --
    Shaun.

    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's
    warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchet, 'Jingo'.

    > ~misfit~ wrote:
    >> Somewhere on teh intarwebs Adam wrote:
    >>> <snip>
    >>>
    >>> This is interesting stuff, NZ Broadband options.
    >>>
    >>> Vodaphone requires a phone lock-in,
    >>> Slingshot too.
    >>> Orcon, not sure, seem not to,
    >>> Telecom prefers a phone lock-in ?
    >>>
    >>> I mean, after Mr Key promising highspeed broadband
    >>> everywhere before the election, and then Mr Brash
    >>> seeing no advantage in persuing it.
    >>>
    >>> Do we have a clear preferred provider at this stage ?
    >>> Orcon seems to be a contender.

    >>
    >> I still think that Actrix is NZ's best ISP (and I've tried a few).
    ~misfit~, Dec 23, 2009
    #18
  19. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Adam Guest

    EMB wrote:

    > Adam wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> An HP "Media Centre"
    >>
    >> Its overseas now, not sure where.
    >> But I agree, appalling business.

    >
    > Overseas my arse. Someone is telling huge porkies - HP warranty repairs
    > are done by Visual Group who are based in Auckland with offices in
    > Wellington, Christchurch and Palmerston North.
    >
    > I would suggest a gentle shit stirring with HP is in order.


    I think your right. News is its back today in
    less than 2 weeks. So, maybe to Auckland and back.

    Maybe Leemings giving inaccurate information.
    Adam, Dec 24, 2009
    #19
  20. On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:51:00 +1300, EMB wrote:

    > Adam wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> An HP "Media Centre"
    >>
    >> Its overseas now, not sure where.
    >> But I agree, appalling business.

    >
    > Overseas my arse. Someone is telling huge porkies - HP warranty repairs
    > are done by Visual Group who are based in Auckland with offices in
    > Wellington, Christchurch and Palmerston North.
    >
    > I would suggest a gentle shit stirring with HP is in order.


    That sounds right EMB I have a HP media center puter and when it went crook
    a couple of months ago it was in for about 4-5 days and was done locally
    (Wellington).

    Someone is spinning a line of Bovine excrement.

    Robin
    Robin Halligan, Dec 25, 2009
    #20
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    Nighthawk, Feb 17, 2008, in forum: NZ Computing
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    499
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    Feb 21, 2008
  5. Bill
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    698
    Nobody
    May 28, 2008
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