Sipgate with one way audio

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by divoch, Feb 20, 2009.

  1. divoch

    divoch Guest

    I have now setup an account and downloaded X-lite softphone but have audio
    problem whereby I can hear the incoming audio but the outgoing audio does
    not work. I have PC with Vista and use Logitech camera with microphone for
    the outgoing audio. With both Skype and MS Messenger I have no audio
    problems.
    I am in touch with Sipgate support but so far suggested things, like using
    button F7 to access audio wizard, did not work for me, as F7 does nothing.
    Being an impatient person I wonder if anyone here could make any suggestions
    as to what to try, or is there any other compatible softphone I could try?
    Thanks
    divoch
     
    divoch, Feb 20, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. In article <J_wnl.11756$2>,
    divoch <> wrote:
    >I have now setup an account and downloaded X-lite softphone but have audio
    >problem whereby I can hear the incoming audio but the outgoing audio does
    >not work. I have PC with Vista and use Logitech camera with microphone for
    >the outgoing audio. With both Skype and MS Messenger I have no audio
    >problems.
    >I am in touch with Sipgate support but so far suggested things, like using
    >button F7 to access audio wizard, did not work for me, as F7 does nothing.
    >Being an impatient person I wonder if anyone here could make any suggestions
    >as to what to try, or is there any other compatible softphone I could try?


    One way audio is almost always caused by NAT/firewall issues.

    See if your router has a SIP ALG and turn it off if you can. Routers
    that I've had these issues with include Draytek, DLink, Zyxel, Thompson
    speedtouch, Fritz! and, well just about all others.

    You should not need to do any port-forwarding for phones for sipgate,
    so check that too.

    Gordon
     
    Gordon Henderson, Feb 20, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. divoch

    divoch Guest

    "Gordon Henderson" <> wrote in message
    news:gnm7bg$1hg5$...
    > In article <J_wnl.11756$2>,
    > divoch <> wrote:
    >>I have now setup an account and downloaded X-lite softphone but have audio
    >>problem whereby I can hear the incoming audio but the outgoing audio does
    >>not work. I have PC with Vista and use Logitech camera with microphone for
    >>the outgoing audio. With both Skype and MS Messenger I have no audio
    >>problems.
    >>I am in touch with Sipgate support but so far suggested things, like using
    >>button F7 to access audio wizard, did not work for me, as F7 does nothing.
    >>Being an impatient person I wonder if anyone here could make any
    >>suggestions
    >>as to what to try, or is there any other compatible softphone I could try?

    >
    > One way audio is almost always caused by NAT/firewall issues.
    >
    > See if your router has a SIP ALG and turn it off if you can. Routers
    > that I've had these issues with include Draytek, DLink, Zyxel, Thompson
    > speedtouch, Fritz! and, well just about all others.
    >
    > You should not need to do any port-forwarding for phones for sipgate,
    > so check that too.
    >


    I am not quite sure where to look but looking through the various options
    when I log into the router I cannot find anything resembling SIP ALG. Not
    sure what and where to check for port forwarding either. My setup is Cable
    modem and Linksys Wireless-G broadband router (WRT54GX).
    My PC has Windows Vista and so I cannot use the Sipgate X-lite which is for
    XP only, but had to install X-lite directly from
    http://www.counterpath.com/

    thanks
    divoch
     
    divoch, Feb 20, 2009
    #3
  4. divoch

    Roger Guest

    On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:07:03 -0000, "divoch"
    <> wrote:

    >My PC has Windows Vista and so I cannot use the Sipgate X-lite which is for
    >XP only, but had to install X-lite directly from
    >http://www.counterpath.com/


    Why didn't you say that before? What you need to do is type

    ***7469 <enter>

    In the filter box type

    honor

    and press Apply Filter. Change the value to 1.

    Explanation: X-Lite 2 uses the same codec for both sending and
    receiving. X-Lite 3 and eyeBeam, by default, can use different
    codecs for each direction but this doesn't work with Sipgate.
    The above will ensure that only one codec is used for both
    directions.
    --
    Roger
     
    Roger, Feb 20, 2009
    #4
  5. divoch

    divoch Guest

    "Roger" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:07:03 -0000, "divoch"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>My PC has Windows Vista and so I cannot use the Sipgate X-lite which is
    >>for
    >>XP only, but had to install X-lite directly from
    >>http://www.counterpath.com/

    >
    > Why didn't you say that before? What you need to do is type
    >
    > ***7469 <enter>
    >
    > In the filter box type
    >
    > honor
    >
    > and press Apply Filter. Change the value to 1.
    >
    > Explanation: X-Lite 2 uses the same codec for both sending and
    > receiving. X-Lite 3 and eyeBeam, by default, can use different
    > codecs for each direction but this doesn't work with Sipgate.
    > The above will ensure that only one codec is used for both
    > directions.
    > --
    > Roger


    Roger, I will not have time to play today but will try tomorrow.
    (I found the Sipgate website confusing it terms of where to download the
    X-lite and did not realise until now that there are two different versions.
    It looks that I was led to download from the counterpath because Vista on my
    PC prevented me from downloading the customised Sipgate version.)
    On advice of the Sipgate support I also tried PhonerLite softphone but so
    far did not have much luck either.

    Thanks
    divoch
     
    divoch, Feb 20, 2009
    #5
  6. divoch

    divoch Guest

    "divoch" <> wrote in message
    news:FFCnl.38945$2...
    >
    > "Roger" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:07:03 -0000, "divoch"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>My PC has Windows Vista and so I cannot use the Sipgate X-lite which is
    >>>for
    >>>XP only, but had to install X-lite directly from
    >>>http://www.counterpath.com/

    >>
    >> Why didn't you say that before? What you need to do is type
    >>
    >> ***7469 <enter>
    >>
    >> In the filter box type
    >>
    >> honor
    >>
    >> and press Apply Filter. Change the value to 1.
    >>
    >> Explanation: X-Lite 2 uses the same codec for both sending and
    >> receiving. X-Lite 3 and eyeBeam, by default, can use different
    >> codecs for each direction but this doesn't work with Sipgate.
    >> The above will ensure that only one codec is used for both
    >> directions.
    >> --
    >> Roger

    >
    > Roger, I will not have time to play today but will try tomorrow.
    > (I found the Sipgate website confusing it terms of where to download the
    > X-lite and did not realise until now that there are two different
    > versions. It looks that I was led to download from the counterpath because
    > Vista on my PC prevented me from downloading the customised Sipgate
    > version.)
    > On advice of the Sipgate support I also tried PhonerLite softphone but
    > so far did not have much luck either.


    I had a quick look at the settings of the X-lite and, sorry, cannot find
    where to enter the number or filter box. What I downloaded is X-lite version
    3.0 build 47546.
    divoch
     
    divoch, Feb 20, 2009
    #6
  7. divoch

    Roger Guest

    On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:38:22 -0000, "divoch"
    <> wrote:

    >I had a quick look at the settings of the X-lite and, sorry, cannot find
    >where to enter the number or filter box. What I downloaded is X-lite version
    >3.0 build 47546.


    You don't type the ***7469 into a box as such. As you type the
    characters they will appear in the X-Lite window just below
    where it shows your Sipgate number. When you press Enter a
    dialogue box will pop up with many, many options. The cursor
    should already be flashing in the Filter: box. After typing
    honor and pressing the Apply Filter button all the options will
    disappear except one "system:network:honor_first_codec" and its
    Value will be 0. Change the Value to 1 and close the window.
    --
    Roger
     
    Roger, Feb 20, 2009
    #7
  8. On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:03:28 -0000, divoch wrote:
    > I have now setup an account and downloaded X-lite softphone but have audio
    > problem whereby I can hear the incoming audio but the outgoing audio does
    > not work.


    I had similar problems with 2 out of 3 calls today with sipgate (but I
    didn't change anything on my side in between) - so it could be a problem on
    sipgate's side.


    Christof

    --
    http://cmeerw.org sip:cmeerw at cmeerw.org
    mailto:cmeerw at cmeerw.org xmpp:cmeerw at cmeerw.org
     
    Christof Meerwald, Feb 20, 2009
    #8
  9. divoch

    divoch Guest

    "Roger" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:38:22 -0000, "divoch"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>I had a quick look at the settings of the X-lite and, sorry, cannot find
    >>where to enter the number or filter box. What I downloaded is X-lite
    >>version
    >>3.0 build 47546.

    >
    > You don't type the ***7469 into a box as such. As you type the
    > characters they will appear in the X-Lite window just below
    > where it shows your Sipgate number. When you press Enter a
    > dialogue box will pop up with many, many options. The cursor
    > should already be flashing in the Filter: box. After typing
    > honor and pressing the Apply Filter button all the options will
    > disappear except one "system:network:honor_first_codec" and its
    > Value will be 0. Change the Value to 1 and close the window.
    > --

    Done that but unfortunately still no joy.
    Customer Support at CounterPath Corporation suggested: "1-way audio is
    usually due to firewall/NAT (e.g. home router). Your VoIP provider likely
    offers some solution for NAT traversal, typically STUN or SBC." but so far
    Sipgate customer support did not suggest the problem could be with the
    router nor any solutions.
    divoch
     
    divoch, Feb 20, 2009
    #9
  10. divoch

    Roger Guest

    On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 23:56:09 -0000, "divoch"
    <> wrote:

    >Done that but unfortunately still no joy.


    Sorry to hear that. When I switched from a working X-Lite 2
    setup to eyeBeam (X-Lite 3 is a cut down eyeBeam) I had the
    one-way problem which was cured by changing the "honor" setting.

    >Customer Support at CounterPath Corporation suggested: "1-way audio is
    >usually due to firewall/NAT (e.g. home router). Your VoIP provider likely
    >offers some solution for NAT traversal, typically STUN or SBC." but so far
    >Sipgate customer support did not suggest the problem could be with the
    >router nor any solutions.


    I've used two different common-or-garden ADSL modem/NAT routers
    without any problems. I can't imagine that your cable modem +
    Linksys is going to a problem. Perhaps you are running a
    software firewall (Norton / MacAfee / whatever) which is causing
    the problem.

    I'm getting ready to go out for the day so I shan't be
    responding until tomorrow. In the meantime, please post your
    X-Lite settings. Maybe there's something wrong there that
    someone will spot.
    --
    Roger
     
    Roger, Feb 21, 2009
    #10
  11. divoch

    divoch Guest

    "Roger" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 23:56:09 -0000, "divoch"
    > <> wrote:


    > I can't imagine that your cable modem +
    > Linksys is going to a problem. Perhaps you are running a
    > software firewall (Norton / MacAfee / whatever) which is causing
    > the problem.
    >
    > I'm getting ready to go out for the day so I shan't be
    > responding until tomorrow. In the meantime, please post your
    > X-Lite settings. Maybe there's something wrong there that
    > someone will spot.


    I am also not sure why it could be Linksys router problem, as I do not have
    such problems with Skype or MS Messenger.
    I run only Vista Windows software firewall. I have added X-lite to firewall
    exceptions when asked.#
    Settings:

    Tab Account
    User name : my SIP-ID number
    password: UDEAMDDD
    Auth user name: my SIP-ID number
    Domain: sipgate.co.uk
    Domain Proxy Register with domain and receive incoming calls ticked
    but neither domain nor proxy selected. (There is no target domain radio
    button which is shown in counterpath instructions)
    Dialing plan #1\a\a.T;match=1;prestrip=2;

    Tab Voicemail
    left unchanged as installed: Check for voicemail selection ticked but
    otherwise nothing selected

    Tab Topology
    Firewall Traversal
    under IP address Discover global address ticked
    under STUN server Use specified server: stun.sipgate.net:10000
    selected
    Enable ICE ticked
    Port used on local computer not selected and left blank

    xTunnels
    Use XTunnels Never selected

    Tab Presence
    Mode : Peer-to-peer
    Poll time 300 sec
    Refresh interval 3600 sec

    Tab Advanced
    Register settings
    Reregister every 600 sec
    Min. time 20 sec
    Max. time 18000 sec

    Advanced Options
    Send SIP keep-alives ticked, Use rport not ticked

    Enable session timers not ticked


    Thanks
    Roman
     
    divoch, Feb 21, 2009
    #11
  12. divoch

    Roger Guest

    On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:04:35 -0000, "divoch"
    <> wrote:

    >Settings:
    >
    >Tab Account
    >Auth user name: my SIP-ID number


    I have left that blank, but I don't think having it will do any
    harm.

    All other settings look okay. One thing that has occurred to me:
    have you checked that X-Lite is using the correct audio devices?

    Ring 1431320 (Ivor Jones's speaking clock) and when connected
    press control+F9. What is your public IP (put Xs for the last
    part if you wish)? On the Audio line do you see g711u twice?

    Do you get the same IP address shown to you here:

    http://www.danasoft.com/sig/daggles.jpg
    --
    Roger
     
    Roger, Feb 22, 2009
    #12
  13. divoch

    divoch Guest

    "Roger" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:04:35 -0000, "divoch"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>Settings:
    >>
    >>Tab Account
    >>Auth user name: my SIP-ID number

    >
    > I have left that blank, but I don't think having it will do any
    > harm.
    >
    > All other settings look okay. One thing that has occurred to me:
    > have you checked that X-Lite is using the correct audio devices?
    >
    > Ring 1431320 (Ivor Jones's speaking clock) and when connected
    > press control+F9. What is your public IP (put Xs for the last
    > part if you wish)? On the Audio line do you see g711u twice?
    >
    > Do you get the same IP address shown to you here:
    >
    > http://www.danasoft.com/sig/daggles.jpg
    > --


    Settings
    I have deleted my SIP-ID number from Auth user name
    X=lite lists the correct audio devices, i.e. for the microphone it is my
    Logitech video camera mic

    When ringing Ivor's clock I get 213.106.92.xxx. I get the same through the
    dynasoft page .
    [after ringing several times the clock stopped working but I was unable to
    leave message for Ivor due to my audio problems but clock is now working
    again]

    Audio line: I do not know where exactly to look but on the screen, when in
    call, there is nothing like g711u

    thanks
    divoch
     
    divoch, Feb 22, 2009
    #13
  14. divoch

    Roger Guest

    On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:01:45 -0000, "divoch"
    <> wrote:

    >X=lite lists the correct audio devices, i.e. for the microphone it is my
    >Logitech video camera mic


    That's ruled out another possibility.

    >When ringing Ivor's clock I get 213.106.92.xxx. I get the same through the
    >dynasoft page .


    So, a proper IP. As opposed to being behind a NAT router at your
    ISP which would have done I don't know what.

    That also means that Sipgate's STUN server is working for you.

    >[after ringing several times the clock stopped working but I was unable to
    >leave message for Ivor due to my audio problems but clock is now working
    >again]


    Perhaps I should have mentioned that the clock disconnects
    automatically after 30 seconds. And being just a speaking clock
    you cannot leave a message.

    >Audio line: I do not know where exactly to look but on the screen, when in
    >call, there is nothing like g711u


    That would have been a couple of lines below the IP address,
    unless this is one of the differences between X-Lite and
    eyeBeam.

    You said in your original post "I can hear the incoming audio
    but the outgoing audio does not work." How do you know that
    outgoing doesn't work? Did you try an echo test? Were you trying
    VoIP with someone or trying to make a paid call? Did you try
    both originating a call and receiving a call? Was there any
    difference? (Can you tell I'm getting desperate?)

    Try this echo test: 000393613

    After the announcement you should hear your own voice a fraction
    of a second after you speak. As you are speaking the red bar on
    the left-hand side should have things happening; the louder you
    speak the more it lights up.
    --
    Roger
     
    Roger, Feb 22, 2009
    #14
  15. divoch

    divoch Guest

    "Roger" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:01:45 -0000, "divoch"
    > <> wrote:



    > Perhaps I should have mentioned that the clock disconnects
    > automatically after 30 seconds. And being just a speaking clock
    > you cannot leave a message.


    It was not that. When I called I did not get a closk but a recording (Ivor's
    ?) saying that, as I hear this recording. there is some problem with the
    clock and I should contact... or something like that.


    > You said in your original post "I can hear the incoming audio
    > but the outgoing audio does not work." How do you know that
    > outgoing doesn't work? Did you try an echo test? Were you trying
    > VoIP with someone or trying to make a paid call? Did you try
    > both originating a call and receiving a call? Was there any
    > difference? (Can you tell I'm getting desperate?)


    You are certainly trying to help which I cannot say about Sipgate support. I
    have to wake them up, they seemed to have given up on me.

    I asked wife to call me a couple of times from normal phone and while I
    could hear her voice she could not hear me (except when shouting at her from
    distance)
    Since then I tried to connect to voicemail and record a message but all I am
    recording is silence.
    I never see any movement on the red meter bar, only on green speaker bar

    > Try this echo test: 000393613

    I did not know about this feature

    >
    > After the announcement you should hear your own voice a fraction
    > of a second after you speak. As you are speaking the red bar on
    > the left-hand side should have things happening; the louder you
    > speak the more it lights up.

    Yes, I tried it now, but the lady talked to me but, although willing, I was
    unable to answer back
    I have also tried PhonerLite , as previously suggested by support, but with
    the same result.
    I am beginning to suspect and blame my PC with Vista for some hidden probmem
    to do with Vista. I shall try to install the Sipgate own version on my XP
    laptop and see what will happen.

    Thanks for your help
    divoch
     
    divoch, Feb 22, 2009
    #15
  16. divoch

    Roger Guest

    On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:22:03 -0000, "divoch"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >"Roger" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:01:45 -0000, "divoch"
    >> <> wrote:

    >
    >
    >> Perhaps I should have mentioned that the clock disconnects
    >> automatically after 30 seconds. And being just a speaking clock
    >> you cannot leave a message.

    >
    >It was not that. When I called I did not get a closk but a recording (Ivor's
    >?) saying that, as I hear this recording. there is some problem with the
    >clock and I should contact... or something like that.


    I didn't know that; it's telling the time now!

    >You are certainly trying to help which I cannot say about Sipgate support. I
    >have to wake them up, they seemed to have given up on me.


    They probably don't support X-Lite 3. For reasons which I don't
    know X-Lite 3 works in some very different ways compared with
    X-Lite 2 which Sipgate do support.

    >I never see any movement on the red meter bar, only on green speaker bar


    If you aren't seeing anything on the red, microphone bar that
    suggests that the microphone isn't being "heard" by X-Lite. Do
    you have the slider next to the red bar at maximum, i.e., at the
    top?

    >> Try this echo test: 000393613

    >I did not know about this feature


    It's not a feature of X-Lite; it's the code and number to get
    from Sipgate to FWD's echo test.

    >> After the announcement you should hear your own voice a fraction
    >> of a second after you speak. As you are speaking the red bar on
    >> the left-hand side should have things happening; the louder you
    >> speak the more it lights up.

    >Yes, I tried it now, but the lady talked to me but, although willing, I was
    >unable to answer back
    >I have also tried PhonerLite , as previously suggested by support, but with
    >the same result.
    >I am beginning to suspect and blame my PC with Vista for some hidden probmem
    >to do with Vista. I shall try to install the Sipgate own version on my XP
    >laptop and see what will happen.


    Hmm. Skype works but that has its own propriety way of doing
    things. X-Lite and PhonerLite don't work and they both use SIP.
    Frustrating. I've sent you an email.
    --
    Roger
     
    Roger, Feb 22, 2009
    #16
  17. divoch

    Ivor Jones Guest

    In news:,
    Roger <> typed, for some strange, unexplained
    reason:
    : On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:22:03 -0000, "divoch"
    : <> wrote:
    :
    : >
    : >"Roger" <> wrote in message
    : >news:...
    : >> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:01:45 -0000, "divoch"
    : >> <> wrote:
    : >
    : >
    : >> Perhaps I should have mentioned that the clock disconnects
    : >> automatically after 30 seconds. And being just a speaking clock
    : >> you cannot leave a message.
    : >
    : >It was not that. When I called I did not get a closk but a recording
    : >(Ivor's ?) saying that, as I hear this recording. there is some
    : >problem with the clock and I should contact... or something like
    : >that.
    :
    : I didn't know that; it's telling the time now!

    Sometimes if my ISP has a problem and people cannot connect to the clock,
    Sipgate's voicemail kicks in and asks people to leave a message saying
    when they can't get through.

    Also please be aware that unlike BT's clock, mine can only support one
    caller at a time. If it's busy it sometimes plays up; theoretically if the
    clock is in use a caller will hear ringing tone until it becomes free, but
    if there is more than one caller waiting maybe voicemail takes over. It's
    all I can think off offhand anyway.

    I've had a few odd disconnections at various times recently, when were the
    failures..?


    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, Feb 22, 2009
    #17
  18. divoch

    Iain Guest

    divoch wrote:

    > I never see any movement on the red meter bar, only on green speaker bar


    That's the key to your problem. You need to work out why and fix it.
    First thing is to see if the microphone is working: the red bar needs to
    be lighting up. Check which device is selected as the microphone. Check
    that the microphone is plugged in.
     
    Iain, Feb 23, 2009
    #18
  19. divoch

    Dave Higton Guest

    In message <>
    Iain <> wrote:

    > divoch wrote:
    >
    > > I never see any movement on the red meter bar, only on green speaker bar

    >
    > That's the key to your problem. You need to work out why and fix it.
    > First thing is to see if the microphone is working: the red bar needs to
    > be lighting up. Check which device is selected as the microphone. Check
    > that the microphone is plugged in.


    Also check that the mic's mute switch is not set to the muted
    position.

    Dave
     
    Dave Higton, Feb 23, 2009
    #19
  20. divoch

    divoch Guest

    "Roger" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:22:03 -0000, "divoch"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>"Roger" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:01:45 -0000, "divoch"
    >>> <> wrote:

    >>
    >>
    >>> Perhaps I should have mentioned that the clock disconnects
    >>> automatically after 30 seconds. And being just a speaking clock
    >>> you cannot leave a message.

    >>
    >>It was not that. When I called I did not get a closk but a recording
    >>(Ivor's
    >>?) saying that, as I hear this recording. there is some problem with the
    >>clock and I should contact... or something like that.

    >
    > I didn't know that; it's telling the time now!
    >
    >>You are certainly trying to help which I cannot say about Sipgate support.
    >>I
    >>have to wake them up, they seemed to have given up on me.

    >
    > They probably don't support X-Lite 3. For reasons which I don't
    > know X-Lite 3 works in some very different ways compared with
    > X-Lite 2 which Sipgate do support.
    >
    >>I never see any movement on the red meter bar, only on green speaker bar

    >
    > If you aren't seeing anything on the red, microphone bar that
    > suggests that the microphone isn't being "heard" by X-Lite. Do
    > you have the slider next to the red bar at maximum, i.e., at the
    > top?



    >>> Try this echo test: 000393613

    >>I did not know about this feature

    >
    > It's not a feature of X-Lite; it's the code and number to get
    > from Sipgate to FWD's echo test.
    >
    >>> After the announcement you should hear your own voice a fraction
    >>> of a second after you speak. As you are speaking the red bar on
    >>> the left-hand side should have things happening; the louder you
    >>> speak the more it lights up.

    >>Yes, I tried it now, but the lady talked to me but, although willing, I
    >>was
    >>unable to answer back
    >>I have also tried PhonerLite , as previously suggested by support, but
    >>with
    >>the same result.
    >>I am beginning to suspect and blame my PC with Vista for some hidden
    >>probmem
    >>to do with Vista. I shall try to install the Sipgate own version on my XP
    >>laptop and see what will happen.

    >
    > Hmm. Skype works but that has its own propriety way of doing
    > things. X-Lite and PhonerLite don't work and they both use SIP.
    > Frustrating. I've sent you an email.
    > --



    Yes, I have slider at the top setting. Yes it is frustrating.
    divoch
     
    divoch, Feb 23, 2009
    #20
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