Sigma SD9 or Canon 300D?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Don Gentile, Feb 22, 2004.

  1. Don Gentile

    Don Gentile Guest

    Any advice? I've handled both in camera stores and the Sigma is
    definitely a nicer product. I also like the Sigma's images better,
    but I'm afraid they'll stop making lenses.
     
    Don Gentile, Feb 22, 2004
    #1
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  2. Don Gentile wrote:

    > Any advice? I've handled both in camera stores and the Sigma is
    > definitely a nicer product. I also like the Sigma's images better,
    > but I'm afraid they'll stop making lenses.


    Sigma is a HUGE manufacturer of lenses. As long as they continue making
    cameras, the lenses will most likely be there.
    Bob Williams
     
    Robert E. Williams, Feb 22, 2004
    #2
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  3. On 2004-02-22, Don Gentile <> wrote:
    > Any advice? I've handled both in camera stores and the Sigma is
    > definitely a nicer product. I also like the Sigma's images better,
    > but I'm afraid they'll stop making lenses.


    Sigma is rated 2nd grade when it comes to lenses on Canon.
    And only Sigma makes Sigma lenses.

    Also, within short time, the camera body will be a small part
    of your total investment, and the lenses will take up most
    of your invested money. So decide which system you want to
    "get locked into" today.
     
    Povl H. Pedersen, Feb 22, 2004
    #3
  4. Don Gentile

    Mark Herring Guest

    On 22 Feb 2004 01:23:59 -0800, (Don Gentile)
    wrote:

    >Any advice? I've handled both in camera stores and the Sigma is
    >definitely a nicer product. I also like the Sigma's images better,
    >but I'm afraid they'll stop making lenses.


    No personal experience, but---like many here--I do not like the look
    of SD9 images which have been posted. go to Google groups and search
    on "Sigma" and "Foveon". You'll get an earful.

    Many report the Sigma as having inaccurate colors. I claim that that
    is the uncurable result of the unique Foveon architecture.

    IMHO, Canon is now making the best digicams

    More likely Sigma will stop making cameras but keep making lenses.
    **************************
    Mark Herring, Pasadena, Calif.
    Private e-mail: Just say no to "No".
     
    Mark Herring, Feb 22, 2004
    #4
  5. Don Gentile

    Mark B. Guest

    "Don Gentile" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Any advice? I've handled both in camera stores and the Sigma is
    > definitely a nicer product. I also like the Sigma's images better,
    > but I'm afraid they'll stop making lenses.


    Why? They were making lenses long before they started making cameras. If
    anything, they'll stop making cameras due to poor sales.

    Mark
     
    Mark B., Feb 22, 2004
    #5
  6. I have been a Nikon 35mm and Pentax 6x7 user for many years in the film
    world. My Nikon lenses are about 35 years old and would not work with a new
    digital SLR, so I wasn't "stuck" with a legacy of lenses although I am
    partial to Nikon equipment. I realized that I wanted a digital SLR to use
    for at least the next few years. After reading the review in dpreview I
    decided on the SD9, with two prime lenses, the 20mm and 50mm macro. I
    haven't been sorry. You should understand some limitations and
    characteristics of the camera, however. For example:

    1. No pop up flash for flash fill or emergency flash use.
    2. No in-camera jpegs.
    3. Computer post processing of images required (excellent software, though).
    4. Some color issues, easily corrected in my opinion.
    5. A skin tone Photoshop plug in available (I think) from www.hkdcug.com is
    a great help.
    6. Greater resolution (in my opinion) at a lower cost then the competition.

    I recommend the SD9 for users capable of dealing with the above.

    "Don Gentile" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Any advice? I've handled both in camera stores and the Sigma is
    > definitely a nicer product. I also like the Sigma's images better,
    > but I'm afraid they'll stop making lenses.
     
    Dick Frederick, Feb 22, 2004
    #6
  7. If you can wait: try the D70 <g>

    -Michael
     
    Michael Schnell, Feb 22, 2004
    #7
  8. "Don Gentile" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Any advice? I've handled both in camera stores and the Sigma is
    > definitely a nicer product. I also like the Sigma's images better,
    > but I'm afraid they'll stop making lenses.


    I've owned an SD9 for almost three months and I'm happy with my
    decision to get it over a Canon 10D - not that I would mind having a
    10D. The Sigma offered a better value ($ 810.00 with the two lens kit
    for the SD9 vs. $ 1,500.00 for the 10D body) for me even though I
    already had two Canon lenses to use from my Elan. Those two lenses
    aren't top-shelf so it was not a difficult decision to go with the
    Sigma. I too like the image quality of the Sigma which has it's
    advantages over Bayer sensor cameras. It also has some disadvantages
    as another post mentioned which are easily overcome.
     
    Peter A. Stavrakoglou, Feb 22, 2004
    #8
  9. Don Gentile

    bmoag Guest

    Much of what you read in newsgroups like this about Sigma lenses and digital
    cameras are not rational. The real limits of the camera are described by
    Dick Frederick. In every day use these come down to lack of on-camera flash
    and the method of incamera processing and storage.
     
    bmoag, Feb 22, 2004
    #9
  10. "bmoag" <> wrote in
    news:F96_b.1262$:

    > Much of what you read in newsgroups like this about Sigma lenses and
    > digital cameras are not rational. The real limits of the camera are
    > described by Dick Frederick. In every day use these come down to lack
    > of on-camera flash and the method of incamera processing and storage.
    >


    You can make good pictures with almost any camera
    in the class of 300D or SD9 - it is more the
    photographer than the camera that set the limits.

    But, there are technical issues with the SD9.

    * Only Sigma lenses. OK - there are lots of good Sigma
    lenses, so for most this is a non issue. But ... if you
    want some fast and ultra sharp prime lenses - then Sigma
    is the wrong choice.

    * No anti alias filer. This has been discussed here in lengths.
    What this means is that sharp correctly focussed lenses give
    you strange looking artefacts that cannot be removed in post
    processing. This problem is much less severe in SD10 than
    in SD9, but it is still there. It is mainly this fact that
    make Sigma pictures look sharper. But it is false sharpness that
    in some cases may ruin a picture. Personally I think it
    looks worst in foliage. Your milage may vary though and you
    might like the artificial sharpness.

    * Technical problems with color. It is claimed that Foveon is
    better than Bayer regardig colors. Maybe - but only very
    locally. On a global scale over the picture, then the more
    accurate RGB filters on the Bayer sensor is an advantage over
    Foveon's more diffuse color filtering. There are also some
    questions regarding the evenness of the color over the sensor
    as it is quite hard to keep consistent characteristics.

    * Sensitivity. Only a small part of each sensing area is really
    sensitive to light. Therefore, the sensor is less sensitive
    than ordinary CMOS/CCD sensors. Moreover, the strange color
    sensitivity makes it neccessary to make some strong filtering
    when converting to RGB - this also adds noise.

    * Number of spatial samples( = pixels). There are only 3.4 Mpixels
    in the SD9/SD10, no matter how much Sigma/Foveon/George/Guido tries
    to convince us that it really is 10.2. The 300D has 6 Mpixels.
    This means that you get more information from 300D, so you have
    more information if you want to crop or make large prints.

    There are also technical advantages.

    * The Bayer mosaic filtering is a bit of cheating. Most of the
    values in the output are computed. That it works as well as it do
    depends on chromatic information not varying fast. For pictures
    with fast varying chromatic information, Bayer sensors have
    problems. This is also the case for bad Bayer interpolation
    algorithms. Some cameras do have bad algorithms - the Leica 1
    comes to my mind.

    * It would be much easier to make an anti alias filter for Foveon
    sensors than for Bayer. Unfortunately, the Sigma cameras have no
    such filter though.


    /Roland
     
    Roland Karlsson, Feb 22, 2004
    #10
  11. Don Gentile

    Mark M Guest

    "Don Gentile" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Any advice? I've handled both in camera stores and the Sigma is
    > definitely a nicer product. I also like the Sigma's images better,
    > but I'm afraid they'll stop making lenses.


    Lenses you buy for the Sigma will ONLY work on a Sigma body.
    I predict that Sigma will soon get out of the DSLR market entirely--after
    the utter failure of the SD9/10 cameras to take off. They are HIGHLY
    problematic in terms of color rendition and a strange artificial sharpness
    that leaves near-vertical lines looking oddly "manufactured."

    Tree bark takes on a "plastic" look, and rocks are even worse.

    Skin tones do not maintain consistent rendition throughout the shadowing of
    light, or variation of light intensity--which leaves you with color
    corrections issues that cannot be happily dealt with.

    Finally--
    If and when Sigma discontinues their DSLR, you will be left with lenses that
    won't fit any other camera!
    This is perhaps the best argument for sticking with a major DSLR company
    like Nikon or Canon (my personal preference being Canon).
     
    Mark M, Feb 22, 2004
    #11
  12. Don Gentile

    John Navas Guest

    [POSTED TO rec.photo.digital - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <Xns9497C610DEC25klotjohan@130.133.1.4> on 22 Feb 2004 18:28:14 GMT, Roland
    Karlsson <> wrote:

    >* Number of spatial samples( = pixels). There are only 3.4 Mpixels
    > in the SD9/SD10, no matter how much Sigma/Foveon/George/Guido tries
    > to convince us that it really is 10.2. The 300D has 6 Mpixels.
    > This means that you get more information from 300D, so you have
    > more information if you want to crop or make large prints.


    There is a difference, but it's not that simple/large. Most reviewers seem to
    agree that the SD9/SD10 come close to good 6 MP Bayer sensors, so at that
    resolution, the difference is small. It's only beyond that level that the
    SD9/SD10 would fall significantly behind.

    --
    Best regards,
    John Navas
    [PLEASE NOTE: Ads belong *only* in rec.photo.marketplace.digital, as per
    <http://bobatkins.photo.net/info/charter.htm> <http://rpdfaq.50megs.com/>]
     
    John Navas, Feb 22, 2004
    #12
  13. Don Gentile

    Alan Browne Guest

    Don Gentile wrote:

    > Any advice? I've handled both in camera stores and the Sigma is
    > definitely a nicer product. I also like the Sigma's images better,
    > but I'm afraid they'll stop making lenses.



    Sigma are a third party seconds-rate lens maker attempting to break into
    the system market. They have offered 2 DSLR's over the past couple years.

    Canon are a first rate SLR system maker with first rate lenses. Canon
    are setting the pace for everyone else in the DSLR market and
    continuously improving their products and offerings.

    Over to you.

    --
    e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
     
    Alan Browne, Feb 22, 2004
    #13
  14. "John Navas" <> wrote in message
    news:RP6_b.2943$...
    SNIP
    > There is a difference, but it's not that simple/large. Most reviewers

    seem to
    > agree that the SD9/SD10 come close to good 6 MP Bayer sensors, so at that
    > resolution, the difference is small.


    The only reason the SD-9/10 seem (!) to have a higher resolution (which they
    don't, as the DPreview test chart proves) is because they lack a proper
    AA-filter. Therefore the images suffer from aliasing artifacts, some more
    noticeable than others (sharp edged diagonals are common spoil sports).

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Feb 22, 2004
    #14
  15. Don Gentile

    Don Gentile Guest

    Thanks all. Canon is a first rate manufacturer but after handling
    these two models the Sigma is sturdier. I understand digital raw mode
    and I will be using it with either purchase. Sigma's Photo Pro
    software is slow to start on my new computer but I like the x3f custom
    processing mode. I read Canon's conversion software has a bad
    reputation but I can get Photoshop CS for a good price. I would
    rather use a Canon lens mount in case Sigma goes out of business. I
    want to get a 50mm lens and a 100mm lens and the Sigma lenses cost
    $625, the Canon lenses cost $440 and they are 1/2 stop faster but I
    was suprised they were rated lower.
     
    Don Gentile, Feb 23, 2004
    #15
  16. Don Gentile

    Guest

    In message <>,
    (Don Gentile) wrote:

    >Any advice? I've handled both in camera stores and the Sigma is
    >definitely a nicer product. I also like the Sigma's images better,


    You'd probably like the 300D's images, reduced to the 2268*1512 size of
    the SD9 pictures with the "nearest neighbor" algorithm even more. The
    SD9 cheats with fake sharpness that tricks people into thinking they're
    seeing a sharp image, when in fact, you are seeing sharp artifacts that
    were not a contiguous part of the original image.

    Here is a demonstration of the phenomenon:

    http://www.pbase.com/image/26326175/original
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
     
    , Feb 23, 2004
    #16
  17. Don Gentile

    Guest

    In message <MG5_b.44915$>,
    "Peter A. Stavrakoglou" <> wrote:

    >I too like the image quality of the Sigma which has it's
    >advantages over Bayer sensor cameras.


    What would those advantages be? The only advantage I can think of is
    that you could probably get some nice greyscale out of the camera if you
    wrote a RAW converter that skipped the RGB phase, and just let you
    channel-mix the three pseudo-RGB channels. However, you still have the
    issue of aliasing.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
     
    , Feb 23, 2004
    #17
  18. Don Gentile

    Guest

    In message <F96_b.1262$>,
    "bmoag" <> wrote:

    >Much of what you read in newsgroups like this about Sigma lenses and digital
    >cameras are not rational. The real limits of the camera are described by
    >Dick Frederick. In every day use these come down to lack of on-camera flash
    >and the method of incamera processing and storage.


    No, there are also lots of blotchy false colors in subtle gradients, and
    lots of visible aliasing artifacts when a sharp lens is used in a
    detailed scene.

    Buying an SD9 is a mistake, if you want quality images. I recommend
    that everyone who already bought one take it as a lesson learned, and no
    one else buy one.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
     
    , Feb 23, 2004
    #18
  19. Don Gentile

    Guest

    In message <RP6_b.2943$>,
    John Navas <> wrote:

    >[POSTED TO rec.photo.digital - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]


    >In <Xns9497C610DEC25klotjohan@130.133.1.4> on 22 Feb 2004 18:28:14 GMT, Roland
    >Karlsson <> wrote:


    >>* Number of spatial samples( = pixels). There are only 3.4 Mpixels
    >> in the SD9/SD10, no matter how much Sigma/Foveon/George/Guido tries
    >> to convince us that it really is 10.2. The 300D has 6 Mpixels.
    >> This means that you get more information from 300D, so you have
    >> more information if you want to crop or make large prints.


    >There is a difference, but it's not that simple/large. Most reviewers seem to
    >agree that the SD9/SD10 come close to good 6 MP Bayer sensors, so at that
    >resolution, the difference is small. It's only beyond that level that the
    >SD9/SD10 would fall significantly behind.


    Most reviewers probably don't spend a lot of time with the cameras, and
    probably have no desire to beat on an alternative camera, especially
    when the manufacturer spends a lot more money per unit sold on
    advertising than the big companies, on their site, or in their magazine.

    Reviewers have been overly kind to the SDx cameras, IMO.

    I've seen many SD9 pictures, and the only time they look right is when
    the optics are soft, and when the scene is high-contrast and lacking in
    gradients.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
     
    , Feb 23, 2004
    #19
  20. Don Gentile

    Guest

    In message <>,
    (Don Gentile) wrote:

    >I
    >want to get a 50mm lens and a 100mm lens and the Sigma lenses cost
    >$625, the Canon lenses cost $440 and they are 1/2 stop faster but I
    >was suprised they were rated lower.


    That's because Canon has a wide range of lens quality, and the better
    Sigmas fall somewhere in the middle of that range, in terms of optics.
    The entry-level Canon lenses are ofen soft, especially wide open, but
    the "L" series lenses tend to be sharp wide open, but cost more than the
    Sigma lenses.
    --

    <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    John P Sheehy <>
    ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
     
    , Feb 23, 2004
    #20
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