Shutter Lag on digital camera...

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by erics, Feb 25, 2005.

  1. erics

    erics Guest

    We have a old canon A20 which must be getting on for three years old -
    currently mostly using it for 6x4 pictures so 2MP isn't a massive issue,
    although the option to print bigger or crop would be useful, hence more mega
    pixels. One thing we have found to be a continual annoyance is the shutter
    lag as it is used a lot to take family pictures and kids don't stay still
    for long.

    Are the modern digital compact cameras much improved in terms of shutter
    lag, or would you only notice a big improvement by going for a dSLR?

    Considering the Canon A95 as a possible replacement - anyone have any
    experieince of the shutter lag on this?
    Also considering the value of getting something with a larger zoom such as
    the DiMAGE Z5 which according to the website has a very small shutter lag
    (0.06) which I find hard to believe as reviews don't seem to mention this.
     
    erics, Feb 25, 2005
    #1
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  2. erics

    Eric Gill Guest

    "erics" <> wrote in news:421f3d32
    $0$2766$:

    > Are the modern digital compact cameras much improved in terms of shutter
    > lag,


    Some. Oddly enough, the more money you spend, the faster everything gets
    (to a point).

    > or would you only notice a big improvement by going for a dSLR?


    Only if you consider "usually no lag at all" and "able to shoot 5 frames a
    second or more" a big improvement.
     
    Eric Gill, Feb 25, 2005
    #2
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  3. erics

    Scott W Guest

    erics wrote:
    > Are the modern digital compact cameras much improved in terms of

    shutter
    > lag, or would you only notice a big improvement by going for a dSLR?


    For lots of info on shutter lag look here
    http://www.imaging-resource.com/
    Shutter lag on non-DSLRs can be very good if you pre-focus (by pushing
    the shutter button part way) But a good DSLR has a feel to it that has
    not been met by any non-DSLR cameras that I know of. With the 20D you
    push the shutter and you get the photo, over and over again, no waiting
    for the photo to get stored. With a non-DSLR you will normally have to
    wait some period of time between shots, this may only be on the order
    of a second but this can still be a pain.

    > Considering the Canon A95 as a possible replacement - anyone have any


    > experieince of the shutter lag on this?
    > Also considering the value of getting something with a larger zoom

    such as
    > the DiMAGE Z5 which according to the website has a very small shutter

    lag
    > (0.06) which I find hard to believe as reviews don't seem to mention

    this.
    The 0.06 shutter lag is for pre-focus. The A95 takes just under a
    second to focus and shoot a photo, but there is a two second delay then
    to the next photo.

    You should at least go to a camera store and try a DLSR, it is a pretty
    neat feeling to use one.

    Scott
     
    Scott W, Feb 25, 2005
    #3
  4. erics

    erics Guest

    "Eric Gill" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns9608640043DA9ericvgillyahoocom@63.223.5.254...
    > "erics" <> wrote in news:421f3d32
    > $0$2766$:
    >
    >> Are the modern digital compact cameras much improved in terms of shutter
    >> lag,

    >
    > Some. Oddly enough, the more money you spend, the faster everything gets
    > (to a point).


    I don't think more money is the issue in this case as I am on about the
    advance of technology at the same price point as my A20 was 3 years ago
    (~£300). Looking at the specs of similarly priced cameras (not allowing for
    inflation etc) it is obvious you get a good deal more pixels, control,
    features, and possibly lens. It is not so easy to see if at this price point
    the speed of processing etc has improved - it is almost like they don't want
    to admit it is a digital camera problem.

    I have since read that one way of reducing shutter lag is pre-focusing, or
    using a camera with manual focus, as the AF is the majority of the delay? I
    guess there must have also been shutter lag with my old 35mm point and shoot
    camera, but because it was typically weeks before the pictures come back it
    wasn't immediately obvious. I would hate to think the number of pictures we
    have "missed" because the camera didn't fire when we first hit the button!

    >> or would you only notice a big improvement by going for a dSLR?

    >
    > Only if you consider "usually no lag at all" and "able to shoot 5 frames a
    > second or more" a big improvement.


    "usually no lag at all" would be a big improvement, "5 frames a second"
    would be over kill for me!

    I like to think that a "good" digital camera would encourage creativity and
    experimentation, as well as capture a record of events for the future. The
    trouble is getting the right camera.
     
    erics, Feb 25, 2005
    #4
  5. erics

    erics Guest

    "Scott W" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > erics wrote:
    > > Are the modern digital compact cameras much improved in terms of

    > shutter
    >> lag, or would you only notice a big improvement by going for a dSLR?

    >
    > For lots of info on shutter lag look here
    > http://www.imaging-resource.com/
    > Shutter lag on non-DSLRs can be very good if you pre-focus (by pushing
    > the shutter button part way) But a good DSLR has a feel to it that has
    > not been met by any non-DSLR cameras that I know of. With the 20D you
    > push the shutter and you get the photo, over and over again, no waiting
    > for the photo to get stored. With a non-DSLR you will normally have to
    > wait some period of time between shots, this may only be on the order
    > of a second but this can still be a pain.
    >
    >> Considering the Canon A95 as a possible replacement - anyone have any

    >
    >> experieince of the shutter lag on this?
    >> Also considering the value of getting something with a larger zoom

    > such as
    >> the DiMAGE Z5 which according to the website has a very small shutter

    > lag
    >> (0.06) which I find hard to believe as reviews don't seem to mention

    > this.
    > The 0.06 shutter lag is for pre-focus. The A95 takes just under a
    > second to focus and shoot a photo, but there is a two second delay then
    > to the next photo.
    >
    > You should at least go to a camera store and try a DLSR, it is a pretty
    > neat feeling to use one.
    >
    > Scott



    Thanks for the info. I am tempted by a dSLR but need to justify the extra
    cost in my own mind (and the persuade the wife!). I also don't want to
    needlessly pay for more camera than I require.

    I intend to go to a store to get a feeling for a few cameras, just want to
    be a little informed before I go so I can tell a sales gimmick from the
    truth!
     
    erics, Feb 25, 2005
    #5
  6. It's not the shutter lag so much as it is the slow auto focus. On most point
    and shoot cameras if you can press the shutter down half-way to let the AF
    do it's job and then hold for the moment you want to shoot, I think you'll
    notice the "lag" from that half-way to shutter-release is not that much.
     
    Dave R knows who, Feb 25, 2005
    #6
  7. erics

    Guest

    Perhaps the Sony DSC-W1 suits your needs.
    It's one of the speediest compact camera's around.
    And since it's successors (DSC-W5 and DSC-W7) have been announced
    recently, the DSC-W1 prices are likely to drop.
     
    , Feb 25, 2005
    #7
  8. erics

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Scott W wrote:
    > erics wrote:
    > > Are the modern digital compact cameras much improved in terms of

    > shutter
    >
    >>lag, or would you only notice a big improvement by going for a dSLR?

    >
    >
    > For lots of info on shutter lag look here
    > http://www.imaging-resource.com/
    > Shutter lag on non-DSLRs can be very good if you pre-focus (by pushing
    > the shutter button part way) But a good DSLR has a feel to it that has
    > not been met by any non-DSLR cameras that I know of. With the 20D you
    > push the shutter and you get the photo, over and over again, no waiting
    > for the photo to get stored. With a non-DSLR you will normally have to
    > wait some period of time between shots, this may only be on the order
    > of a second but this can still be a pain.
    >
    >


    I think you need to update your information. I have a Kodak DX6440
    (last year's model), and the shutter lag is minimal. It has never been
    a problem, and newer models are even faster. As for multiple shots, I
    can take up to 6 shots before having to write to the card. Look for a
    camera with a large buffer ram. As for feel, if you mean heavy and
    bulky, yes, the DSLR has that 'advantage'.


    >>Considering the Canon A95 as a possible replacement - anyone have any

    >
    >
    >>experieince of the shutter lag on this?
    >>Also considering the value of getting something with a larger zoom

    >
    > such as
    >
    >>the DiMAGE Z5 which according to the website has a very small shutter

    >
    > lag
    >
    >>(0.06) which I find hard to believe as reviews don't seem to mention

    >
    > this.
    > The 0.06 shutter lag is for pre-focus. The A95 takes just under a
    > second to focus and shoot a photo, but there is a two second delay then
    > to the next photo.
    >
    > You should at least go to a camera store and try a DLSR, it is a pretty
    > neat feeling to use one.
    >
    > Scott
    >



    --
    Ron Hunter
     
    Ron Hunter, Feb 25, 2005
    #8
  9. erics

    Scott W Guest

    Ron Hunter wrote:

    >
    > I think you need to update your information. I have a Kodak DX6440
    > (last year's model), and the shutter lag is minimal. It has never

    been
    > a problem, and newer models are even faster. As for multiple shots,

    I
    > can take up to 6 shots before having to write to the card. Look for

    a
    > camera with a large buffer ram. As for feel, if you mean heavy and
    > bulky, yes, the DSLR has that 'advantage'.
    >


    > Ron Hunter

    Here is a link to a review of the DX6440
    http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/dx6440_pg5.html
    If might be fast for a non-DSLR but it is not in the same class as a
    DSLR.
    It has 0.3 seconds of shutter lag if you are pre-focused and 0.6 if you
    are not pre-focused.

    The 20D has a shutter lag of 0.15 seconds including focus time and is
    0.077 seconds if it is pre-focused.

    The 20D will take 24 photos at a rate of 4.8/second.

    So no by feel I do not mean heavy and bulky, I mean something that is
    fast and responsive to the photographer.

    If you don't feel you wnat that kind of responsiveness that is find
    but there are those who do and you simply don't getting from a camera
    like yours.

    Scott
     
    Scott W, Feb 26, 2005
    #9
  10. erics

    Rob Guest

    erics wrote:

    >>
    >>this.
    >>The 0.06 shutter lag is for pre-focus. The A95 takes just under a
    >>second to focus and shoot a photo, but there is a two second delay then
    >>to the next photo.
    >>
    >>You should at least go to a camera store and try a DLSR, it is a pretty
    >>neat feeling to use one.
    >>
    >>Scott

    >
    >
    >
    > Thanks for the info. I am tempted by a dSLR but need to justify the extra
    > cost in my own mind (and the persuade the wife!). I also don't want to
    > needlessly pay for more camera than I require.
    >
    > I intend to go to a store to get a feeling for a few cameras, just want to
    > be a little informed before I go so I can tell a sales gimmick from the
    > truth!
    >
    >



    The fastest camera in small cameras is the Ricoh R1 which is 4Mp and
    there is a 5Mp (model?) have a look at these specs yes they are correct
    not a sales pitch.
     
    Rob, Feb 26, 2005
    #10
  11. erics

    Bigguy Guest

    Go try for yourself - nothing beats 'hands on'...

    Going from my previous CP4500 to a D70 was a revalation, a near religious
    experience...
    No P+S I have tried has anything near the response and feel of a DSLR.

    Anyone used to 35mm SLRs cannot help but be frustrated by the slow response
    of P+S cameras... if you're new to photography you may not notice (or assume
    it's a fault of the user).
    Great for outdoor, sunny days, lanscapes etc... lousy for low light, candids
    or action shots... I took my old Fuji S3000 to the Superbikes and got lots
    of shots of tailpipes leaving shot!!

    I've been taking pictures for 30 years so luckily I knew the fault was not
    with me ;-)

    Love my D70 - push the button and it takes the shot you see in the
    viewfinder - kind of what photography is about I feel...
    Any good shots I took with the CP5400 were 70% chance!!

    Go to your nearest camera store and try some DSLRs... take your own CF card
    if 'poss and take the results home.

    I still take the CP5400 on walks and travelling for snaps and 'covert' shots
    but for anything serious its the D70.

    A few D70 pics from around town
    http://www.guytittley.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Gallery/album/index.html


    Guy

    erics wrote:
    > We have a old canon A20 which must be getting on for three years old -
    > currently mostly using it for 6x4 pictures so 2MP isn't a massive
    > issue, although the option to print bigger or crop would be useful,
    > hence more mega pixels. One thing we have found to be a continual
    > annoyance is the shutter lag as it is used a lot to take family
    > pictures and kids don't stay still for long.
    >
    > Are the modern digital compact cameras much improved in terms of
    > shutter lag, or would you only notice a big improvement by going for
    > a dSLR?
    > Considering the Canon A95 as a possible replacement - anyone have any
    > experieince of the shutter lag on this?
    > Also considering the value of getting something with a larger zoom
    > such as the DiMAGE Z5 which according to the website has a very small
    > shutter lag (0.06) which I find hard to believe as reviews don't seem
    > to mention this.
     
    Bigguy, Feb 26, 2005
    #11
  12. Bigguy commented courteously ...

    Been lurkin', please permit me a confirming comment...

    > Go try for yourself - nothing beats 'hands on'...


    Yepper!

    > I've been taking pictures for 30 years so luckily I
    > knew the fault was not with me ;-)


    Me, too, but I didn't discover the auto focus thingy
    until after I'd gotten plenty frustrated. Now, I often
    turn AF off and use the "push-the-button-down-half-way-
    to-lock-the-focus method of reducing 'shutter lag', but
    that obviously won't work for action shots.

    My prime subjects are cars which are standing still. My
    daughter takes lots of pics of her cats and puppy,
    usually which are out-of-focus and/or out-of-frame
    because of P & S "shutter lag" (which, in her case, is
    almost always really an AF issue). In her case, I
    recommend taking as many pics as possible, consistent
    with flash recharge times, then just throw away the
    baddies.

    > Love my D70 - push the button and it takes the shot you
    > see in the viewfinder - kind of what photography is

    about
    > I feel... Any good shots I took with the CP5400 were

    70%
    > chance!!


    DSLR vs. EVF/ZLR is a good example of using what you find
    works best for an individuals particular brand of
    photography. For me, it is much more important to "see"
    what the sensors see, rather than what the lens sees,
    since my biggest problem is flash underexposure as well
    as minor out-of-focus situations.

    I'm a firm believer in "whatever floats your boat" being
    the most important, which is why I clearly understand
    your statement here, as well as the many comments earlier
    in this thread.

    Please don't take my comments as anti-Guy. I just took
    your post as the opportunity for me to voice my opinions.
    As you so correctly point out, there just ain't no
    substitute for personal experience, *after* you've
    consulted with people who're more experienced, as I have
    recently in my quest to replace my Nikon 5700.

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 26, 2005
    #12
  13. erics

    Tony M Guest


    > The fastest camera in small cameras is the Ricoh R1 which is 4Mp and
    > there is a 5Mp (model?) have a look at these specs yes they are correct
    > not a sales pitch.


    5Mp - R1v, release in UK next month, price approx £230. (interestingly,
    it was on the QVC shoppoing channel this morning as pick of the day)

    Tony M
     
    Tony M, Feb 26, 2005
    #13
  14. erics

    Scott W Guest

    Rob wrote:
    > The fastest camera in small cameras is the Ricoh R1 which is 4Mp and


    > there is a 5Mp (model?) have a look at these specs yes they are

    correct
    > not a sales pitch.

    Could you post a link to the spec for this camera?

    Acott
     
    Scott W, Feb 26, 2005
    #14
  15. erics

    Rob Guest

    Scott W wrote:
    > Rob wrote:
    > > The fastest camera in small cameras is the Ricoh R1 which is 4Mp and

    >
    >
    >>there is a 5Mp (model?) have a look at these specs yes they are

    >
    > correct
    >
    >>not a sales pitch.

    >
    > Could you post a link to the spec for this camera?
    >
    > Acott
    >


    http://www.ricoh.com.au/products/vi...id=559&range=Ricoh Digital Cameras&RangeID=10

    High resolution 4.0 megapixels CCD
    Advanced precision technology
    4.8x magnification wide angle 28-135mm optical zoom lens
    3.6x digital zoom (combined 17x magnification)
    World leading 0.8 second start-up time
    World's fastest shutter response time before focus lock - 0.05 seconds
    World's fastest shutter response time after focus lock - 0.003 of a second
    Quick performance 0.9 second interval shooting



    Link to the R1V 5Mp camera at the above URL
     
    Rob, Feb 26, 2005
    #15
  16. erics

    tellme Guest

    On 26 Feb 2005 11:53:41 -0800, "Scott W" <> wrote:

    >
    >Rob wrote:
    > > The fastest camera in small cameras is the Ricoh R1 which is 4Mp and

    >
    >> there is a 5Mp (model?) have a look at these specs yes they are

    >correct
    >> not a sales pitch.

    >Could you post a link to the spec for this camera?
    >
    >Acott


    www.qvc.com
     
    tellme, Feb 26, 2005
    #16
  17. erics

    Scott W Guest

    Rob wrote:
    > Scott W wrote:
    > > Rob wrote:
    > > > The fastest camera in small cameras is the Ricoh R1 which is 4Mp

    and
    > >
    > >
    > >>there is a 5Mp (model?) have a look at these specs yes they are

    > >
    > > correct
    > >
    > >>not a sales pitch.

    > >
    > > Could you post a link to the spec for this camera?
    > >
    > > Acott
    > >

    >
    >

    http://www.ricoh.com.au/products/vi...id=559&range=Ricoh Digital Cameras&RangeID=10
    >
    > High resolution 4.0 megapixels CCD
    > Advanced precision technology
    > 4.8x magnification wide angle 28-135mm optical zoom lens
    > 3.6x digital zoom (combined 17x magnification)
    > World leading 0.8 second start-up time
    > World's fastest shutter response time before focus lock - 0.05

    seconds
    > World's fastest shutter response time after focus lock - 0.003 of a

    second
    > Quick performance 0.9 second interval shooting
    >
    >
    >
    > Link to the R1V 5Mp camera at the above URL


    0.8 seconds startup time is fast but not as fast as the 20D at 0.25
    seconds
    The slow part is the interval time of 0.9 seconds, The 20D has a cycle
    time of 0.43 seconds, less then half the time.

    Scott
     
    Scott W, Feb 26, 2005
    #17
  18. erics

    Tony Hwang Guest

    erics wrote:
    > We have a old canon A20 which must be getting on for three years old -
    > currently mostly using it for 6x4 pictures so 2MP isn't a massive issue,
    > although the option to print bigger or crop would be useful, hence more mega
    > pixels. One thing we have found to be a continual annoyance is the shutter
    > lag as it is used a lot to take family pictures and kids don't stay still
    > for long.
    >
    > Are the modern digital compact cameras much improved in terms of shutter
    > lag, or would you only notice a big improvement by going for a dSLR?
    >
    > Considering the Canon A95 as a possible replacement - anyone have any
    > experieince of the shutter lag on this?
    > Also considering the value of getting something with a larger zoom such as
    > the DiMAGE Z5 which according to the website has a very small shutter lag
    > (0.06) which I find hard to believe as reviews don't seem to mention this.
    >
    >

    Hi,
    Film is instant total exposure vs. sensor is scaned. It takes fraction
    of a second to complete image and send it to buffer. Also when you turn
    the camera on, the firmware has to do self check, go to ready, etc.,
    another fraction of seconds, etc. They all adds up.
    It's like computer OS(Windows, Linux, OS X, etc.) boot up time.
    Tony
     
    Tony Hwang, Feb 26, 2005
    #18
  19. erics

    Scott W Guest

    Tony Hwang wrote:

    > Hi,
    > Film is instant total exposure vs. sensor is scaned. It takes

    fraction
    > of a second to complete image and send it to buffer. Also when you

    turn
    > the camera on, the firmware has to do self check, go to ready, etc.,
    > another fraction of seconds, etc. They all adds up.
    > It's like computer OS(Windows, Linux, OS X, etc.) boot up time.
    > Tony


    I don't think you fully understand how a CCD works, its exposure is
    just like film. And the time it takes to send the image to the butter
    is less then it take for the film to advance in a 35mm camera, or can
    your film camera shoot faster then 5 frame/sec.

    Boot time, yeah waiting for that quarter second to boot up is a real
    drag.

    Scott
     
    Scott W, Feb 26, 2005
    #19
  20. erics

    Tony Hwang Guest

    Scott W wrote:
    > Tony Hwang wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Hi,
    >>Film is instant total exposure vs. sensor is scaned. It takes

    >
    > fraction
    >
    >>of a second to complete image and send it to buffer. Also when you

    >
    > turn
    >
    >>the camera on, the firmware has to do self check, go to ready, etc.,
    >>another fraction of seconds, etc. They all adds up.
    >>It's like computer OS(Windows, Linux, OS X, etc.) boot up time.
    >>Tony

    >
    >
    > I don't think you fully understand how a CCD works, its exposure is
    > just like film. And the time it takes to send the image to the butter
    > is less then it take for the film to advance in a 35mm camera, or can
    > your film camera shoot faster then 5 frame/sec.
    >
    > Boot time, yeah waiting for that quarter second to boot up is a real
    > drag.
    >
    > Scott
    >

    Hi,
    Really?
    So how CCD works? Care to run down?
    Let's start with logic block diagram of any digital camera.
    Of course mechanical movement is SLOWER than the speed of electrons.
    Movie films shoots how many fps? It can even catch a bullet flying.
    Ever caught a fired bullet on film in a physics lab?
    Tony
     
    Tony Hwang, Feb 27, 2005
    #20
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