"Show Stopper" for Linux on the Desktop under GPLv3

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Mickey Mouse, Jul 29, 2007.

  1. Mickey Mouse

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    What a nightmare. Just how would Dell deliver this to customers under
    GPLv3?

    Pre-installed Linux must play commercial DVDs

    You probably know this, but a "show stopper" requirement for most consumers
    and many educators and business road warriors is having laptops and desktops
    that can play commercial DVDs.

    http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/66741
    Mickey Mouse, Jul 29, 2007
    #1
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  2. Mickey Mouse

    sam Guest

    sam, Jul 29, 2007
    #2
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  3. Mickey Mouse

    peterwn Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > What a nightmare. Just how would Dell deliver this to customers under
    > GPLv3?
    >
    > Pre-installed Linux must play commercial DVDs
    >


    No, it depends what the customer wants. Agreed if the customer wants to
    play commercial movies on a computer, the customer would need to acquire
    a system that can accommodate this. However many customers may prefer
    to play such movies on a home entertainment system (with better picture
    and sound quality) or prefer that their family, students or employees
    may not play such movies an a computer anyway.

    IMO there is probably going to be a market 'fork' at some point, with
    'locked down' machines predominantly aimed at the entertainment market
    (including games), and machines which are unable to handle all
    entertainment, but which are under full user control. A possible option
    could be a computer with dedicated hardware for receiving and presenting
    copyrighted material (eg a hardware decoder built into the circuitry of
    a monitor to prevent extraction of decoded digital signals), but with
    the ordinary computing hardware (processor, memory, etc) remaining under
    user control.

    As an Auckland University academic pointed out last year, attempts to
    lock down a general purpose computer to protect IP content will be
    doomed to failure.

    In any case, 'locked down' machines are risky for life support or other
    critical applications. They are also unsuited for computer science
    teaching and research purposes.

    The 'holy grail' of the entertainment industry would be to lobby for the
    adoption of medieval type concepts such as limiting the art of
    programming to a small elite only. Whether this would find
    international acceptance is another matter - it may be possible with
    totalitarian or corrupt governments, but unlikely in the long term with
    true democratic governments.
    peterwn, Jul 29, 2007
    #3
  4. Mickey Mouse

    Shane Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:

    > What a nightmare. Just how would Dell deliver this to customers under
    > GPLv3?
    >
    > Pre-installed Linux must play commercial DVDs
    >
    > You probably know this, but a "show stopper" requirement for most
    > consumers and many educators and business road warriors is having laptops
    > and desktops that can play commercial DVDs.
    >
    > http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/66741


    Um, whats stopping dell getting a license to distribute code that is capable
    of doing the above?
    --
    Q: What is very old, used by farmers, and obeys the fundamental theorem of
    arithmetic?
    A: An antique tractorisation domain.
    Shane, Jul 29, 2007
    #4
  5. Mickey Mouse

    sam Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > "sam" <> wrote in message news:46abfb56$...
    >> Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>> What a nightmare. Just how would Dell deliver this to customers
    >>> under GPLv3?

    >>
    >> LinDVD
    >> http://www.intervideo.com/jsp/Product_Profile.jsp?p=LinDVD

    >
    > What does GPLv3 have to say about patent agreements?


    Nothing that would stop Dell from installing a commercially licensed
    proprietary DVD application.

    Linspire is also intending to offer licensed DVD player binary downloads
    packaged for several distributions including Debian, Fedora, Freespire,
    Linspire, OpenSuse, and Ubuntu.
    http://www.cnr.com/

    Dell has not entered into any covenant to selectively offer immunity
    against patent claims.
    sam, Jul 29, 2007
    #5
  6. Mickey Mouse

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    Mickey Mouse, Jul 29, 2007
    #6
  7. Mickey Mouse

    sam Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > "sam" <> wrote in message news:46ac02de$...
    >> Mickey Mouse wrote:

    >
    >>> What does GPLv3 have to say about patent agreements?

    >>
    >> Dell has not entered into any covenant to selectively offer immunity
    >> against patent claims.

    >
    > So do you believe that any company that signs a patent agreement with
    > MPEG LA to license MPEG2 codecs doesn't offer its users more favourable
    > terms, or confer protections regarding patent rights to a select
    > audience, that is not freely available to *all* Linux users?


    A patent licensee can't sue other users
    sam, Jul 29, 2007
    #7
  8. Mickey Mouse

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    "sam" <> wrote in message news:46ac02de$...
    > Mickey Mouse wrote:


    >> What does GPLv3 have to say about patent agreements?

    >
    > Dell has not entered into any covenant to selectively offer immunity
    > against patent claims.


    So do you believe that any company that signs a patent agreement with MPEG
    LA to license MPEG2 codecs doesn't offer its users more favourable terms, or
    confer protections regarding patent rights to a select audience, that is not
    freely available to *all* Linux users?
    Mickey Mouse, Jul 29, 2007
    #8
  9. Mickey Mouse

    Peter Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > You probably know this, but a "show stopper" requirement for most
    > consumers and many educators and business road warriors is having laptops
    > and desktops that can play commercial DVDs.


    Apparently there are versions of Vista (Business edition?) that can't play
    DVDs. Is this a showstopper for Vista?


    Peter
    Peter, Jul 29, 2007
    #9
  10. Mickey Mouse

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    "sam" <> wrote in message news:...
    > Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >> "sam" <> wrote in message
    >> news:46ac02de$...
    >>> Mickey Mouse wrote:

    >>
    >>>> What does GPLv3 have to say about patent agreements?
    >>>
    >>> Dell has not entered into any covenant to selectively offer immunity
    >>> against patent claims.

    >>
    >> So do you believe that any company that signs a patent agreement with
    >> MPEG LA to license MPEG2 codecs doesn't offer its users more favourable
    >> terms, or confer protections regarding patent rights to a select
    >> audience, that is not freely available to *all* Linux users?

    >
    > A patent licensee can't sue other users


    Would Novell or Linspire be suing users who were making illegal use of IP,
    or would it be the patent holder whose "work" was misappropriated?
    Mickey Mouse, Jul 29, 2007
    #10
  11. Mickey Mouse

    sam Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > "sam" <> wrote in message news:...
    >> Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>> "sam" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:46ac02de$...
    >>>> Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>> What does GPLv3 have to say about patent agreements?
    >>>>
    >>>> Dell has not entered into any covenant to selectively offer immunity
    >>>> against patent claims.
    >>>
    >>> So do you believe that any company that signs a patent agreement with
    >>> MPEG LA to license MPEG2 codecs doesn't offer its users more
    >>> favourable terms, or confer protections regarding patent rights to a
    >>> select audience, that is not freely available to *all* Linux users?

    >>
    >> A patent licensee can't sue other users

    >
    > Would Novell or Linspire be suing users who were making illegal use of
    > IP, or would it be the patent holder whose "work" was misappropriated?


    Novell and Linspire aren't patent licensees
    sam, Jul 29, 2007
    #11
  12. Mickey Mouse

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    "sam" <> wrote in message news:46ac2bc5$...
    > Mickey Mouse wrote:


    >> Would Novell or Linspire be suing users who were making illegal use of
    >> IP, or would it be the patent holder whose "work" was misappropriated?

    >
    > Novell and Linspire aren't patent licensees


    Well, let's just look at some of the technologies that Linspire has licensed
    in an effort to better meet the needs of the desktop market:

    ♪ QuickTime audio
    ♪ Java
    ♪ Flash
    ♪ 3-D graphics drivers
    ♪ Wi-Fi drivers
    ♪ Windows Media codecs
    ♪ VOIP technology
    ♪ Fonts

    It is also worth noting that various Microsoft technologies and patent
    protection are not included with Linspire's no-cost Freespire package.
    Mickey Mouse, Jul 29, 2007
    #12
  13. Mickey Mouse

    sam Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > "sam" <> wrote in message news:46ac2bc5$...
    >> Mickey Mouse wrote:

    >
    >>> Would Novell or Linspire be suing users who were making illegal use
    >>> of IP, or would it be the patent holder whose "work" was
    >>> misappropriated?

    >>
    >> Novell and Linspire aren't patent licensees

    >
    > Well, let's just look at some of the technologies that Linspire has
    > licensed in an effort to better meet the needs of the desktop market:
    >
    > ♪ QuickTime audio
    > ♪ Java
    > ♪ Flash
    > ♪ 3-D graphics drivers
    > ♪ Wi-Fi drivers
    > ♪ Windows Media codecs
    > ♪ VOIP technology
    > ♪ Fonts
    >
    > It is also worth noting that various Microsoft technologies and patent
    > protection are not included with Linspire's no-cost Freespire package.


    So according to your strange interpretation do you think that Linspire
    will include GPLv3 licenced applications ?
    sam, Jul 29, 2007
    #13
  14. Mickey Mouse

    sam Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > "sam" <> wrote in message news:46ac2bc5$...
    >> Mickey Mouse wrote:

    >
    >>> Would Novell or Linspire be suing users who were making illegal use
    >>> of IP, or would it be the patent holder whose "work" was
    >>> misappropriated?

    >>
    >> Novell and Linspire aren't patent licensees

    >
    > Well, let's just look at some of the technologies that Linspire has
    > licensed in an effort to better meet the needs of the desktop market:
    >
    > ♪ QuickTime audio
    > ♪ Java
    > ♪ Flash
    > ♪ 3-D graphics drivers
    > ♪ Wi-Fi drivers
    > ♪ Windows Media codecs
    > ♪ VOIP technology
    > ♪ Fonts
    >

    None of which are patent licences
    sam, Jul 29, 2007
    #14
  15. Mickey Mouse

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    "sam" <> wrote in message news:46ac43bc$...
    > Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >> "sam" <> wrote in message
    >> news:46ac2bc5$...
    >>> Mickey Mouse wrote:

    >>
    >>>> Would Novell or Linspire be suing users who were making illegal use of
    >>>> IP, or would it be the patent holder whose "work" was misappropriated?
    >>>
    >>> Novell and Linspire aren't patent licensees

    >>
    >> Well, let's just look at some of the technologies that Linspire has
    >> licensed in an effort to better meet the needs of the desktop market:
    >>
    >> ♪ QuickTime audio
    >> ♪ Java
    >> ♪ Flash
    >> ♪ 3-D graphics drivers
    >> ♪ Wi-Fi drivers
    >> ♪ Windows Media codecs
    >> ♪ VOIP technology
    >> ♪ Fonts
    >>

    > None of which are patent licences


    If you do a bit more research, you might find that there are patents
    involved...
    Mickey Mouse, Jul 29, 2007
    #15
  16. Mickey Mouse

    sam Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > "sam" <> wrote in message news:46ac43bc$...
    >> Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>> "sam" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:46ac2bc5$...
    >>>> Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>> Would Novell or Linspire be suing users who were making illegal use
    >>>>> of IP, or would it be the patent holder whose "work" was
    >>>>> misappropriated?
    >>>>
    >>>> Novell and Linspire aren't patent licensees
    >>>
    >>> Well, let's just look at some of the technologies that Linspire has
    >>> licensed in an effort to better meet the needs of the desktop market:
    >>>
    >>> ♪ QuickTime audio
    >>> ♪ Java
    >>> ♪ Flash
    >>> ♪ 3-D graphics drivers
    >>> ♪ Wi-Fi drivers
    >>> ♪ Windows Media codecs
    >>> ♪ VOIP technology
    >>> ♪ Fonts
    >>>

    >> None of which are patent licences

    >
    > If you do a bit more research, you might find that there are patents
    > involved...


    If you did a bit more research you might find out what GPLv3 actually
    says about patents.
    sam, Jul 29, 2007
    #16
  17. Hi there,

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > What a nightmare. Just how would Dell deliver this to customers under
    > GPLv3?
    >
    > Pre-installed Linux must play commercial DVDs
    >
    > You probably know this, but a "show stopper" requirement for most
    > consumers and many educators and business road warriors is having
    > laptops and desktops that can play commercial DVDs.
    >
    > http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/66741


    So, can you name a distro that is fully GPLv3, and is being
    offered by Dell pre-installed on their systems?

    Seems you're just lobbing FUD again from behind your cowardly
    nym.

    --
    Kind regards,

    Chris Wilkinson, Brisbane, Australia.
    "Maybe politicians should ask the people whether
    or not they wanted all these wars"...
    Chris Wilkinson, Jul 29, 2007
    #17
  18. On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:56:54 +1200, Mickey Mouse wrote:

    > Pre-installed Linux must play commercial DVDs


    Why?

    What if it doesn't have a DVD drive?

    What if the library to enable playing of DVDs is available under the GPL2?


    --
    Jonathan Walker

    "You'll have to excuse me — I have a long
    bath and a short dress to get into."
    Jonathan Walker, Jul 29, 2007
    #18
  19. On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:38:53 +1200, Shane wrote:

    > Um, whats stopping dell getting a license to distribute code that is
    > capable of doing the above?


    Nothing at all is stopping Dell, other than, maybe, a desire not to pay
    for that application.


    --
    Jonathan Walker

    "You'll have to excuse me — I have a long
    bath and a short dress to get into."
    Jonathan Walker, Jul 29, 2007
    #19
  20. Mickey Mouse

    sam Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > "sam" <> wrote in message news:46ac4d0a$...
    >> Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>> "sam" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:46ac43bc$...
    >>>> Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>>>> "sam" <> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:46ac2bc5$...
    >>>>>> Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>> Would Novell or Linspire be suing users who were making illegal
    >>>>>>> use of IP, or would it be the patent holder whose "work" was
    >>>>>>> misappropriated?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Novell and Linspire aren't patent licensees
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Well, let's just look at some of the technologies that Linspire has
    >>>>> licensed in an effort to better meet the needs of the desktop market:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> ♪ QuickTime audio
    >>>>> ♪ Java
    >>>>> ♪ Flash
    >>>>> ♪ 3-D graphics drivers
    >>>>> ♪ Wi-Fi drivers
    >>>>> ♪ Windows Media codecs
    >>>>> ♪ VOIP technology
    >>>>> ♪ Fonts
    >>>>>
    >>>> None of which are patent licences
    >>>
    >>> If you do a bit more research, you might find that there are patents
    >>> involved...

    >>
    >> If you did a bit more research you might find out what GPLv3 actually
    >> says about patents.

    >
    > It deems a patent license to be "any express agreement or commitment,
    > however denominated, not to enforce a patent
    > (such as an express permission to practice a patent or covenant not to
    > sue for patent infringement)."
    >
    > Perhaps you could tell us how an agreement, with an accompanying license
    > or royalty, to make use of a patented technology is not included in the
    > definition above.


    Perhaps I can.
    Software that is licensed under a EULA like Quicktime or RealAudio or
    Macromedia or a licensed DVD player such as LinDVD is entirely separate,
    and not covered by any issue relating to GPL v3, as such it is not
    included in the definition above.
    sam, Jul 29, 2007
    #20
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