Setting up CS2 and Canon G3

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by joe mama, May 26, 2006.

  1. joe mama

    joe mama Guest

    Hi,

    I recently ebayed a Canon G3 and have PS CS2. I wan t to do work withRAW
    files, and standard Jpegs.

    However (and thois has nothing to do with the nuts and bolts of PS); my
    color profiles (?) aren't coming out right.

    For instance...I will downolad a photo (RAW form) from the camera onto my
    hard disc. Then I open it up with the PS Raw converter. I set it the way I'd
    like it (on my monitor), then save it as a TIFF. Then I open the TIFF to do
    final stuff in PS, and it doesn't look anything like it just did in the RAW
    converter!!

    Does PS do a setup with the monitors? Mine has a driver (XP driver NEC
    monitor) and isn't labeled as generic in the device manager.

    What the heck can I do to get these on the same page? I did the Adobe gamma
    thing, but when doing RAW, it doesn't look anything like it should.

    thanks for any help....
     
    joe mama, May 26, 2006
    #1
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  2. joe mama wrote:

    > I recently ebayed a Canon G3 and have PS CS2. I wan t to do work
    > withRAW files, and standard Jpegs.
    >
    > However (and thois has nothing to do with the nuts and bolts of PS);
    > my color profiles (?) aren't coming out right.
    >
    > For instance...I will downolad a photo (RAW form) from the camera
    > onto my hard disc. Then I open it up with the PS Raw converter. I set
    > it the way I'd like it (on my monitor), then save it as a TIFF. Then
    > I open the TIFF to do final stuff in PS,


    Why are you saving as a TIFF first? Simply open the file directly into
    Photoshop.

    > and it doesn't look anything
    > like it just did in the RAW converter!!


    Probably due to a colour profile mismatch. The G3 saves images in sRGB. In
    Photoshop it's best to work in the AdobeRGB colour space (set that in the
    colour settings). Also set it to ask if you want to change to the working
    colour space, so when you load a G3 image it will ask you if you want to
    change to AdobeRGB. Tell it yes.

    > Does PS do a setup with the monitors? Mine has a driver (XP driver NEC
    > monitor) and isn't labeled as generic in the device manager.


    > What the heck can I do to get these on the same page? I did the Adobe
    > gamma thing, but when doing RAW, it doesn't look anything like it
    > should.


    Use Adobe Gamma in the Control Panel to calibrate your monitor. Save the
    ICC file and set it as your default monitor profile. Also, when printing,
    make sure you set the printer to ICM so that it uses the monitor calibration
    settings.

    You have to do all these steps to get everything matched up. It's not easy
    because different settings are in different places, and this stuff is rarely
    explained fully. So to sum up;

    1. Run Adobe Gamma. Load the AdobeRGB1998.icc file as a starting point.
    It's a good idea to put a monochrome image on your desktop while you're
    doing this so that the background colours don't distract you, and you can
    check that the monochrome image really does look a neutral grey. Make your
    adjustments, then save the icc file under a different name.

    2. Right click on the desktop and click Properties (or click on Display
    Properties in the Control Panel). Go to Settings - Advanced - Color
    Management. Add the icc file you just created, then set it as the default
    monitor profile.

    3. In Photoshop, go to Edit - Color Settings. Select an appropriate preset
    (I use Europe Prepress Defaults), you may need to click on More Options to
    get the full list. Make sure that the RGB Working Space is set to Adobe RGB
    (1998) and that Profile Mismatches, Ask When Pasting and Ask When Opening
    are all ticked. When opening a file, make sure you change it to Adobe RGB
    if it asks.

    4. When printing, set Color Handling to Let Printer Determine Colours. To
    set up your printer, click Page Setup - Printer - Properties. Assuming it's
    an Epson, click Custom - Advanced and set Color Management to ICM. This
    tells the printer to use the monitor calibration that you set up in Adobe
    Gamma, to ensure that your prints look the same as on the monitor. If it's
    not an Epson printer, use whatever the equivalent settings to ICM are.

    A note about colour spaces. AdobeRGB is designed for printing and has a
    wider colour gamut than sRGB. This gives better looking prints and is what
    all the pros use. However, they can look a bit flat on the monitor. sRGB
    is designed for monitor display, and looks best on web pages. If saving a
    version for the web, convert to sRGB before saving (you may not see any
    difference on your monitor since you're using Adobe Gamma, but others who
    aren't will).

    About RAW conversion. Make sure you set it to convert in 16 bit mode,
    otherwise you're losing the biggest advantage of shooting in RAW in the
    first place. Many people say that they can't see any difference between RAW
    and JPEG, and there's no reason why you should, since monitors only display
    24 bit colour (8 bits per channel, same as a JPEG). The advantage of RAW is
    that it gives leeway for processing, which JPEG doesn't. For example,
    choose a RAW image with very dark (almost black) shadows, convert it to 8
    bit and 16 bit mode, then brighten the shadows by a large amount. In tests
    I've done the 8 bit version had no colour in the shadows, but the 16 bit
    version did. 16 bit also allows you to adjust the brightness of the sky
    without creating that horrible banding effect. When you've finished your
    processing you can convert it to 8 bit mode. You don't need to save it in
    16 bit mode unless you anticipate further processing.

    Also, set the RAW converter options to sharpen in preview only (this is NOT
    the default). Work on the unsharpened file. Sharpening should always be
    the last thing you do, since it degrades the image. It's best to save the
    finished version (what I call the "master" version) without sharpening. The
    reason for this is that when printing it's best to resize the image for the
    optimum print dpi (240-300) at whatever size you want, then sharpen after
    resizing. If you want to make a large print and you sharpen before resizing
    (or don't bother to resize) the sharpening artefacts can look nasty.

    You can always add sharpening, but you can never take it away once the
    damage is done. Besides, if you ever plan on selling digital images,
    professional buyers will only accept unsharpened images, they prefer to do
    the sharpening themselves. But pro buyers generally won't accept the 4MP
    images that you get from the G3, 6MP is usually the minimum.

    I know this is more information than you asked for, but hey, I got carried
    away...

    Paul
     
    Paul Saunders, May 30, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. joe mama

    Roy G Guest

    "Paul Saunders" <> wrote in message
    news:e5i8f7$hd9$2surf.net...
    > joe mama wrote:
    >>I recently ebayed a Canon G3 and have PS CS2. I wan t to do work
    >> withRAW files, and standard Jpegs.
    >>

    > ---------------snipped


    > 4. When printing, set Color Handling to Let Printer Determine Colours.
    > To set up your printer, click Page Setup - Printer - Properties. Assuming
    > it's an Epson, click Custom - Advanced and set Color Management to ICM.
    > This tells the printer to use the monitor calibration that you set up in
    > Adobe Gamma, to ensure that your prints look the same as on the monitor.
    > If it's not an Epson printer, use whatever the equivalent settings to ICM
    > are.
    >
    >
    > Paul


    Hi Paul.

    Your advice is mostly fairly sound, but there are one or two points which
    are not accurate.

    Adobe Gamma will create a Monitor Profile, (but only for CRTs). This
    Profile allows Ps to adjust the data, on the fly, so that the Colours on
    Screen will be accurate.. It's SOLE purpose is to convert Colours from the
    Working Space for use by the Monitor.

    Adobe Gamma can use sRGB as a starting point, but it is better to start from
    the profile for the specific Monitor, or a Generic 2.2 Gamma Monitor
    Profile, but only if using a PC and a CRT. (Some Macs need 1.8 Gamma).

    You should also have advised him to change the Monitor Colour Temperature to
    6500K before starting Adobe Gamma.

    For Printing, Media Specific Profiles are used by the Printer, or PS, to
    convert the Working Space Colours, so that the Printer will produce the
    Correct Colours. These Profiles are often supplied, and installed, along
    with the Printer Driver.

    These Profiles should only be used by EITHER PS or the Printer, never BOTH.
    Telling him to use "Printer Colour Management" in PS and ICM in the Printer
    Driver is one way of ensuring this Single Use.

    However, the Monitor Profile has no relevance for anything the Printer will
    be doing. The Printer, or Ps, should be using one of the Printer / Paper
    Profiles.

    Profiles are kept in C / Windows / System32 / Spool / Drivers / Colour.
    Right Clicking on a Profile, selecting Properties and then Profile
    Information will often tell you which piece of equipment, paper, or
    whatever, it is intended to be used with.

    I hope this helps both of you to a bit clearer understanding of this
    seemingly complicated subject.

    Roy G



    ..
     
    Roy G, May 31, 2006
    #3
  4. joe mama

    Roy G Guest

    "Paul Saunders" <> wrote in message
    news:e5i8f7$hd9$2surf.net...
    > joe mama wrote:
    >>I recently ebayed a Canon G3 and have PS CS2. I wan t to do work
    >> withRAW files, and standard Jpegs.
    >>

    > ---------------snipped


    > 4. When printing, set Color Handling to Let Printer Determine Colours.
    > To set up your printer, click Page Setup - Printer - Properties. Assuming
    > it's an Epson, click Custom - Advanced and set Color Management to ICM.
    > This tells the printer to use the monitor calibration that you set up in
    > Adobe Gamma, to ensure that your prints look the same as on the monitor.
    > If it's not an Epson printer, use whatever the equivalent settings to ICM
    > are.
    >
    >
    > Paul


    Hi Paul.

    Your advice is mostly fairly sound, but there are one or two points which
    are not accurate.

    Adobe Gamma will create a Monitor Profile, (but only for CRTs). This
    Profile allows Ps to adjust the data, on the fly, so that the Colours on
    Screen will be accurate.. It's SOLE purpose is to convert Colours from the
    Working Space for use by the Monitor.

    Adobe Gamma can use sRGB as a starting point, but it is better to start from
    the profile for the specific Monitor, or a Generic 2.2 Gamma Monitor
    Profile, but only if using a PC and a CRT. (Some Macs need 1.8 Gamma).

    You should also have advised him to change the Monitor Colour Temperature to
    6500K before starting Adobe Gamma.

    For Printing, Media Specific Profiles are used by the Printer, or PS, to
    convert the Working Space Colours, so that the Printer will produce the
    Correct Colours. These Profiles are often supplied, and installed, along
    with the Printer Driver.

    These Profiles should only be used by EITHER PS or the Printer, never BOTH.
    Telling him to use "Printer Colour Management" in PS and ICM in the Printer
    Driver is one way of ensuring this Single Use.

    However, the Monitor Profile has no relevance for anything the Printer will
    be doing. The Printer, or Ps, should be using one of the Printer / Paper
    Profiles.

    Profiles are kept in C / Windows / System32 / Spool / Drivers / Colour.
    Right Clicking on a Profile, selecting Properties and then Profile
    Information will often tell you which piece of equipment, paper, or
    whatever, it is intended to be used with.

    I hope this helps both of you to a bit clearer understanding of this
    seemingly complicated subject.

    Roy G



    ..
     
    Roy G, May 31, 2006
    #4
  5. "Roy G" <> wrote in message
    news:U66fg.4007$...

    > Your advice is mostly fairly sound, but there are one or two points which
    > are not accurate.
    >
    > Adobe Gamma will create a Monitor Profile, (but only for CRTs).


    I don't know why you say that. I've created a monitor profile for my LCD
    monitor and it works fine.

    > This Profile allows Ps to adjust the data, on the fly, so that the Colours
    > on Screen will be accurate.. It's SOLE purpose is to convert Colours from
    > the Working Space for use by the Monitor.


    Right.

    > Adobe Gamma can use sRGB as a starting point,


    I suggested AdobeRGB.

    > but it is better to start from the profile for the specific Monitor,


    If you have one.

    > or a Generic 2.2 Gamma Monitor Profile, but only if using a PC and a CRT.
    > (Some Macs need 1.8 Gamma).


    Still don't know why you think it only works with a CRT. The latest VA
    technology LCD monitors produce pretty accurate colours.

    > You should also have advised him to change the Monitor Colour Temperature
    > to 6500K before starting Adobe Gamma.


    Oh yes, forgot about that.

    > For Printing, Media Specific Profiles are used by the Printer, or PS, to
    > convert the Working Space Colours, so that the Printer will produce the
    > Correct Colours. These Profiles are often supplied, and installed, along
    > with the Printer Driver.


    Yes. It works fine if you use the correct papers for the profiles provided,
    but any other papers tend to have colour shifts if you don't have the right
    profiles. I'm happy with the Epson papers anyway.

    > These Profiles should only be used by EITHER PS or the Printer, never
    > BOTH. Telling him to use "Printer Colour Management" in PS and ICM in the
    > Printer Driver is one way of ensuring this Single Use.


    That's how I prefer to do it.

    > However, the Monitor Profile has no relevance for anything the Printer
    > will be doing.


    No, but it has relevance for making visual adjustments to the image, which
    should then match what the printer produces. Obviously I didn't try to
    explain exactly how it works, but simply what to do to make it work
    correctly.

    > The Printer, or Ps, should be using one of the Printer / Paper Profiles.


    Quite. I should have been more specific about using the correct paper
    profile.

    > Profiles are kept in C / Windows / System32 / Spool / Drivers / Colour.
    > Right Clicking on a Profile, selecting Properties and then Profile
    > Information will often tell you which piece of equipment, paper, or
    > whatever, it is intended to be used with.
    >
    > I hope this helps both of you to a bit clearer understanding


    I have a pretty good understanding, but I didn't explain it thoroughly and I
    forgot a couple of things, so thanks for pointing those out.

    > of this seemingly complicated subject.


    It's not that complicated when you know how it works, but I've never seen it
    explained simply anywhere. I'm sure a lot of people who print their own
    photos must have trouble with this. The big problem is in having to set
    different things in different places, and if you get just one bit wrong it
    screws it all up.

    Paul
     
    Paul Saunders, May 31, 2006
    #5
  6. joe mama

    Roy G Guest

    "Paul Saunders" <> wrote in message
    news:e5isea$un0$2surf.net...
    > "Roy G" <> wrote in message
    > news:U66fg.4007$...
    >
    >> Your advice is mostly fairly sound, but there are one or two points which
    >> are not accurate.
    >>
    >> Adobe Gamma will create a Monitor Profile, (but only for CRTs).

    >
    > I don't know why you say that. I've created a monitor profile for my LCD
    > monitor and it works fine.
    >
    >> This Profile allows Ps to adjust the data, on the fly, so that the
    >> Colours on Screen will be accurate.. It's SOLE purpose is to convert
    >> Colours from the Working Space for use by the Monitor.

    >
    > Right.
    >
    >> Adobe Gamma can use sRGB as a starting point,

    >
    > I suggested AdobeRGB.
    >
    >> but it is better to start from the profile for the specific Monitor,

    >
    > If you have one.
    >
    >> or a Generic 2.2 Gamma Monitor Profile, but only if using a PC and a CRT.
    >> (Some Macs need 1.8 Gamma).

    >
    > Still don't know why you think it only works with a CRT. The latest VA
    > technology LCD monitors produce pretty accurate colours.
    >
    >> You should also have advised him to change the Monitor Colour Temperature
    >> to 6500K before starting Adobe Gamma.

    >
    > Oh yes, forgot about that.
    >
    >> For Printing, Media Specific Profiles are used by the Printer, or PS, to
    >> convert the Working Space Colours, so that the Printer will produce the
    >> Correct Colours. These Profiles are often supplied, and installed, along
    >> with the Printer Driver.

    >
    > Yes. It works fine if you use the correct papers for the profiles
    > provided, but any other papers tend to have colour shifts if you don't
    > have the right profiles. I'm happy with the Epson papers anyway.
    >
    >> These Profiles should only be used by EITHER PS or the Printer, never
    >> BOTH. Telling him to use "Printer Colour Management" in PS and ICM in the
    >> Printer Driver is one way of ensuring this Single Use.

    >
    > That's how I prefer to do it.
    >
    >> However, the Monitor Profile has no relevance for anything the Printer
    >> will be doing.

    >
    > No, but it has relevance for making visual adjustments to the image, which
    > should then match what the printer produces. Obviously I didn't try to
    > explain exactly how it works, but simply what to do to make it work
    > correctly.
    >
    >> The Printer, or Ps, should be using one of the Printer / Paper Profiles.

    >
    > Quite. I should have been more specific about using the correct paper
    > profile.
    >
    >> Profiles are kept in C / Windows / System32 / Spool / Drivers / Colour.
    >> Right Clicking on a Profile, selecting Properties and then Profile
    >> Information will often tell you which piece of equipment, paper, or
    >> whatever, it is intended to be used with.
    >>
    >> I hope this helps both of you to a bit clearer understanding

    >
    > I have a pretty good understanding, but I didn't explain it thoroughly and
    > I forgot a couple of things, so thanks for pointing those out.
    >
    >> of this seemingly complicated subject.

    >
    > It's not that complicated when you know how it works, but I've never seen
    > it explained simply anywhere. I'm sure a lot of people who print their
    > own photos must have trouble with this. The big problem is in having to
    > set different things in different places, and if you get just one bit
    > wrong it screws it all up.
    >
    > Paul

    Hi again.

    I am glad to find that I was trying to "teach my Granny to suck eggs" so to
    speak.

    You obviously know the subject pretty well, but I was a bit worried that you
    were one of that group who only know enough to be dangerous, and who insist
    on giving the wrong advice. "Your camera shoots in sRGB so just set all
    profiles and your Printer to sRGB"

    I am interested to hear that Adobe Gamma can provide good Profiles for Flat
    Panels, as everyone seems to be saying that can only be done by Hardware
    Devices, especially since my CRT is getting a touch elderly.

    Regards,

    Roy G
     
    Roy G, May 31, 2006
    #6
  7. Roy G wrote:

    > I am glad to find that I was trying to "teach my Granny to suck eggs"
    > so to speak.
    >
    > You obviously know the subject pretty well,


    Well I've read a lot about the subject and have done a fair bit of printing
    over the past few years, and helped friends set up their systems.

    > but I was a bit worried
    > that you were one of that group who only know enough to be dangerous,
    > and who insist on giving the wrong advice. "Your camera shoots in
    > sRGB so just set all profiles and your Printer to sRGB"


    No. Obviously different advice is needed for different situations but I was
    trying to keep it as simple as possible.

    > I am interested to hear that Adobe Gamma can provide good Profiles
    > for Flat Panels, as everyone seems to be saying that can only be done
    > by Hardware Devices, especially since my CRT is getting a touch
    > elderly.


    I've calibrated a few LCDs using my ancient Spyder, but in all cases my
    friends have reverted to the Adobe Gamma settings instead, which give more
    accurate results. I'm not condemning hardware devices, it's probably the
    Spyder that's at fault - I find it makes the screen colours far too
    saturated.

    I was surprised a while back when I heard that Sony were stopping CRT
    production, followed by a few other manufacturers, since up to that point I
    was under the impression that LCD technology couldn't compete for colour
    accuracy. But Sony surely wouldn't have made that decision otherwise. I
    then had my attention drawn to a series of photos taken inside the Adobe
    building in which there was no CRT to be seen! So if Adobe only use LCDs I
    figured it was probably time to change! Others who saw those photos
    identified many of the monitors to be the Dell 2405FPW.

    Apparently the Dell 2405FPW is an extremely good 24" widescreen monitor from
    a colour accuracy point of view, yet it's cheaper than the rest of the
    competition, which seems a contradition in terms. Check out this review;
    http://www.behardware.com/articles/567-2/23-and-24-lcd-monitors-roundup.html

    The key thing to be aware of when buying an LCD monitor for use with photo
    processing is the screen technology used. There are three main types, IPS,
    VA and TN. TN is the most common, and cheapest, but doesn't have true
    24-bit colour. Good for gaming but not photo processing. VA is the one to
    go for if you are serious about photography. Unfortunately, the LCD
    technology used is often not stated in many tech specs, so you may have to
    do a bit of searching to find out. If it isn't mentioned, it's probably a
    TN. BeHardware is a good site for LCD reviews, but their coverage of
    different models is limited.
    http://www.behardware.com/articles/498-4/lcd-screens-in-a-nutshell.html

    Since the LCD technology is the key thing, the manufacturer is less
    important, so don't worry about the brand name on the front, instead try to
    find out which company made the screen. I believe Samsung and AU Optronics
    are two of the best VA screen manufacturers. The Dell 2405FPW uses a
    Samsung screen, yet is considerably cheaper than the Samsung model which
    uses the same screen. Viewsonic produce some excellent monitors, using the
    AU Optronics screens, check out this article;
    http://www.behardware.com/articles/563-1/viewsonic-vp191b-mva-8-ms-tn-monitor-killer.html
    Although I believe this model has already been superceded. Things are
    changing very fast in the LCD world.

    I recently bought the Belinea 10 20 35W, a 20" widescreen. Previously I
    wouldn't have touched Belinea with a bargepole, but it uses an AU Optronics
    MVA screen and is very affordable (make that "was", a new import tax is set
    to change that). Looking at the Color Quality page of the review, you'll
    see that the colour accuracy out of the box is pretty awful (average delta
    6.5) but after calibration it scores a superb 0.5, so take no notice of the
    poor colour quality score in the conclusion, that only applies if you don't
    calibrate it. I'm very pleased with it, the blacks are really black and it
    has much better shadow detail than my ageing CRT.
    http://www.behardware.com/articles/598-1/20-inches-lcd-p-mva-vs-s-ips.html

    Paul
     
    Paul Saunders, May 31, 2006
    #7
  8. joe mama

    Roy G Guest

    Thanks Paul.

    I knew that there would be a lot less screen makers than brand names. But I
    did not know about the different technologies or who used what.

    I have had both the Dell and Samsung recommended, and it is interesting to
    know they both use the same screen.

    Strange, but I spotted an ad for the Belinea just yesterday, and quite liked
    the price, and the looks, but did not know where to check out its quality.
    My second Monitor is a very old 15ins Belinea, and I have been quite
    impressed, because it looks as if it will last forever.

    Roy G
     
    Roy G, Jun 1, 2006
    #8
  9. Roy G wrote:

    > Thanks Paul.


    You're welcome.

    > I knew that there would be a lot less screen makers than brand names.
    > But I did not know about the different technologies or who used what.
    >
    > I have had both the Dell and Samsung recommended, and it is
    > interesting to know they both use the same screen.


    Be warned though, that brands don't necessarily use the same screens in
    different models. Dell uses TN screens in other models for example, so the
    quality can vary widely between models. There's one instance where
    different screen technologies are used in the same model (can't remember
    which brand offhand) which could be really confusing. So check individual
    models to be sure. The tech specs are usually a good indication of the
    technology used if it isn't mentioned. TN's generally have a contrast ratio
    of 500:1 while VAs are usually 800:1 to 1000:1.

    > Strange, but I spotted an ad for the Belinea just yesterday, and
    > quite liked the price, and the looks, but did not know where to check
    > out its quality.


    Be careful not to confuse the 10 20 35W with the new version, the 10 20 30W,
    which differs in that it doesn't have a DVI input.
    http://www.behardware.com/articles/619-1/comparatif-8-lcd-20-pouces-5-6-8-16-ms.html

    Paul
     
    Paul Saunders, Jun 1, 2006
    #9
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