Screwing its users

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by thing, Jul 5, 2004.

  1. thing

    thing Guest

    Im quite disgusted by this,

    Interesting point came up in a recent discussion. A certain large ISP
    are trying to claim they are one of the only 2 tier 1 ISPs in NZ. What
    this means is, if a certain large ISP's customer wants to connect to a
    NZ business, not only does a certain large ISP expect its own users to
    pay volume/time, (which they do now) but its expects the nz business to
    pay a certain large ISP as well, so a certain large ISP is looking for a
    double payment, for one volume of traffic. Its argument(s) sound dubious
    to me, its trying to claim traffic costs are increasing, when in fact
    hardware is dropping in price and most links are simply "buy the
    hardware link", without any volume charge (within the context of this
    thread).

    So over the next few months if a certain large ISP thinks its safe to
    try, Im expecting a campaign to try and "recover" its "increasing"
    expenses, by claining this is "fair". It will be interesting to see if
    its just off its own customers or if its going to try and hit its
    "peers" for extra money. If customers have any sense they will simply
    leave and any businesses in question tell them to take a running jump....

    Same old same old, try and form a monopolistic position so you can
    charge way over the odds for what you deliver, even when what your
    delivering is dropping in cost....throw some spin in on the truth so you
    dont actually lie.....guess this is how spin doctors earn thier keep....

    What does this mean for you and me? well, large very popular &
    successful web sites in NZ might suddenly get slow or time out for that
    ISP's customers as the ISP cuts off the peering link forcing data to go
    the "long way"...

    I get real tired of this lack of honesty....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Jul 5, 2004
    #1
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  2. thing

    AD. Guest

    On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:04:52 +1200, thing wrote:

    > Im quite disgusted by this,
    >
    > Interesting point came up in a recent discussion. A certain large ISP are
    > trying to claim they are one of the only 2 tier 1 ISPs in NZ.


    <snip>

    > What does this mean for you and me? well, large very popular & successful
    > web sites in NZ might suddenly get slow or time out for that ISP's
    > customers as the ISP cuts off the peering link forcing data to go the
    > "long way"...
    >
    > I get real tired of this lack of honesty....


    Are you talking about a certain Telco who I was about to sign up with for
    a cable modem connection, but have since changed my mind after hearing
    their plans? Those plans apparently include the removal of discounted
    national traffic.

    I can't get over the short sighted, pig headed arrogance of it
    all. Wankers!! (even if it is the other one, that comment still applies)

    I think I'll wait and see how this wholesale DSL lark turns out (not
    expecting much) before I think about moving off dial up at home now. And
    I'm advising all my friends, colleagues and clients the same.

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Jul 5, 2004
    #2
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  3. thing

    thing Guest

    AD. wrote:
    > On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:04:52 +1200, thing wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Im quite disgusted by this,
    >>
    >>Interesting point came up in a recent discussion. A certain large ISP are
    >>trying to claim they are one of the only 2 tier 1 ISPs in NZ.

    >
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    >>What does this mean for you and me? well, large very popular & successful
    >>web sites in NZ might suddenly get slow or time out for that ISP's
    >>customers as the ISP cuts off the peering link forcing data to go the
    >>"long way"...
    >>
    >>I get real tired of this lack of honesty....

    >
    >
    > Are you talking about a certain Telco who I was about to sign up with for
    > a cable modem connection, but have since changed my mind after hearing
    > their plans? Those plans apparently include the removal of discounted
    > national traffic.
    >
    > I can't get over the short sighted, pig headed arrogance of it
    > all. Wankers!! (even if it is the other one, that comment still applies)
    >
    > I think I'll wait and see how this wholesale DSL lark turns out (not
    > expecting much) before I think about moving off dial up at home now. And
    > I'm advising all my friends, colleagues and clients the same.
    >
    > Cheers
    > Anton


    url/link/thread?

    Sounds like something Ive missed...

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Jul 5, 2004
    #3
  4. thing

    thing Guest

    AD. wrote:
    > On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:04:52 +1200, thing wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Im quite disgusted by this,
    >>
    >>Interesting point came up in a recent discussion. A certain large ISP are
    >>trying to claim they are one of the only 2 tier 1 ISPs in NZ.

    >
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    >>What does this mean for you and me? well, large very popular & successful
    >>web sites in NZ might suddenly get slow or time out for that ISP's
    >>customers as the ISP cuts off the peering link forcing data to go the
    >>"long way"...
    >>
    >>I get real tired of this lack of honesty....

    >
    >
    > Are you talking about a certain Telco who I was about to sign up with for
    > a cable modem connection, but have since changed my mind after hearing
    > their plans? Those plans apparently include the removal of discounted
    > national traffic.
    >
    > I can't get over the short sighted, pig headed arrogance of it
    > all. Wankers!! (even if it is the other one, that comment still applies)
    >
    > I think I'll wait and see how this wholesale DSL lark turns out (not
    > expecting much) before I think about moving off dial up at home now. And
    > I'm advising all my friends, colleagues and clients the same.
    >
    > Cheers
    > Anton


    I once talked to the founder of Paradise, he stated then that the cost
    of National traffic was in the region of 0.2-0.3 cent per meg, and that
    was before Paradise joined Clear and enjoyed the "free" access to
    Clear's backbone it now does. So if you telling me its all of a sudden
    going to start costing the same as International then that is pure
    monopolistic exploitation...

    As a friend says, Clear / Telstra is just another telco.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Jul 5, 2004
    #4
  5. thing

    AD. Guest

    On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:00:18 +1200, thing wrote:

    > url/link/thread?
    >
    > Sounds like something Ive missed...


    Just hearsay and rumours floating past on the nznog mailing list. All part
    of TCs depeering in November apparently. It's been decided in Oz and
    apparently the local outfit isn't that happy about it but orders is
    orders. I'm not sure how concrete the plans are, but if people kick up a
    big enough stink and they lose enough business - who knows, plans could
    change.

    Even if Telstra aren't planning that, they still need a kick up the arse!

    BTW I'm not a subscriber to nznog, I just use http://www.gmane.org/ to
    occasionally catch up on certain mailing lists with my news client to save
    my inbox filling up. Quite handy really.

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Jul 5, 2004
    #5
  6. thing

    thing Guest

    AD. wrote:
    > On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:00:18 +1200, thing wrote:
    >
    >
    >>url/link/thread?
    >>
    >>Sounds like something Ive missed...

    >
    >
    > Just hearsay and rumours floating past on the nznog mailing list. All part
    > of TCs depeering in November apparently. It's been decided in Oz and
    > apparently the local outfit isn't that happy about it but orders is
    > orders. I'm not sure how concrete the plans are, but if people kick up a
    > big enough stink and they lose enough business - who knows, plans could
    > change.
    >
    > Even if Telstra aren't planning that, they still need a kick up the arse!
    >
    > BTW I'm not a subscriber to nznog, I just use http://www.gmane.org/ to
    > occasionally catch up on certain mailing lists with my news client to save
    > my inbox filling up. Quite handy really.
    >
    > Cheers
    > Anton


    sounds like our two threads coincide...

    same telco....

    If they do...well I can think about moving back to dial up, I have
    access to plenty of bandwidth at work so I should be able to hook into
    that very cheaply.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Jul 5, 2004
    #6
  7. thing wrote:
    > What does this mean for you and me? well, large very popular &
    > successful web sites in NZ might suddenly get slow or time out for that
    > ISP's customers as the ISP cuts off the peering link forcing data to go
    > the "long way"...


    are you referring to the dropping of peering agreements by the two T's
    in november? or something else?
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Jul 5, 2004
    #7
  8. thing

    steve Guest

    thing wrote:

    > So over the next few months if a certain large ISP thinks its safe to
    > try, Im expecting a campaign to try and "recover" its "increasing"
    > expenses, by claining this is "fair". It will be interesting to see if
    > its just off its own customers or if its going to try and hit its
    > "peers" for extra money. If customers have any sense they will simply
    > leave and any businesses in question tell them to take a running jump....


    TelstraClear want to introduce the Aussie Internet model here.

    In Australia, Telstra bought the privatised AARNET peering point a few years
    back....and gained an effective monopoly on large-scale peering in
    Australia. They charged all ISPs by the megabyte for exchanged traffic - at
    one point it was 19 cents / AU / MB...I do not know what it is now.

    That effectively put a floor under the pricing of every other ISP....and
    made Telstra sh*tloads of money.

    > Same old same old, try and form a monopolistic position so you can
    > charge way over the odds for what you deliver, even when what your
    > delivering is dropping in cost....throw some spin in on the truth so you
    > dont actually lie.....guess this is how spin doctors earn thier keep....


    Agreed. So Kiwis who know what's good for them will not use the services of
    these two ISPs - either for connection of hosting.

    That would mean most people on braodband going back to dial services. How
    likely is THAT to happen?

    Yet again, the telcos have pulled a fast one on the telecommunications
    commissioner.

    The only possible upside to all this would be that the move COULD push
    traffic charges back onto the suppliers.....and let them calculate
    flat-rate ADSL pricing based on a set of assumptions. This could be similar
    to what happened with IP Net.....

    > What does this mean for you and me? well, large very popular &
    > successful web sites in NZ might suddenly get slow or time out for that
    > ISP's customers as the ISP cuts off the peering link forcing data to go
    > the "long way"...


    They are also trying to remove the distinctions between "domestic" and
    "international".

    Yet another example of how markets introduce 'global' inefficiencies in
    order to obtain 'private' efficiencies.

    We all lose......and they win.

    > I get real tired of this lack of honesty....


    That is probably the worst part of all this. We KNOW Telecom and
    TelstraClear 9and most corporates) will lie to us.

    It's a given. They've done it too often to conclude otherwise.
     
    steve, Jul 5, 2004
    #8
  9. thing

    steve Guest

    AD. wrote:

    > I can't get over the short sighted, pig headed arrogance of it
    > all. Wankers!! (even if it is the other one, that comment still applies)


    Rosemary Howard and Telstra (AU) both richly qualify for that descrition.

    > I think I'll wait and see how this wholesale DSL lark turns out (not
    > expecting much) before I think about moving off dial up at home now. And
    > I'm advising all my friends, colleagues and clients the same.


    The answer will likely be neighbourhood LANs/WLANs.....as Richard Naylor and
    Vik Oliver and others have been advocating.

    If you have a wireless access point, you could be part of a neighbourhood
    WLAN provided you invest in a decent antennae.

    Sure, it's only local....but any such island will be ready for the day the
    bridge can be built. New wireless technologies are greatly increasing
    distances. I'm ready to cover a 50km stretch of SH1 when the price is
    right. :)
     
    steve, Jul 5, 2004
    #9
  10. thing

    David Preece Guest

    AD. wrote:
    > have since changed my mind after hearing
    > their plans? Those plans apparently include the removal of discounted
    > national traffic.


    It's happened already, man. Cable modem users got a "free" upgrade to a
    2Mbit connection a few months back (if you asked for it, anyway). In the
    small print of this new contract *wasn't* different rates for national
    and international traffic.

    > I think I'll wait and see how this wholesale DSL lark turns out (not
    > expecting much)


    It's going to be a disaster. All the ISP's (bar Orcon) have sworn off it
    already. Ihug are chucking lots more radio based gear up, including
    apparently a VoIP rollout. Blimey.

    Anyway, and all this on a background of Woosh and Telecom getting
    increasingly matey. You've got to wonder if Woosh's business strategy is
    to get bought by Telecom as soon as they reckon they can get away with it.

    Shitfight, eh?

    Dave
     
    David Preece, Jul 5, 2004
    #10
  11. In article <>,
    says...
    > thing wrote:
    >
    > > So over the next few months if a certain large ISP thinks its safe to
    > > try, Im expecting a campaign to try and "recover" its "increasing"
    > > expenses, by claining this is "fair". It will be interesting to see if
    > > its just off its own customers or if its going to try and hit its
    > > "peers" for extra money. If customers have any sense they will simply
    > > leave and any businesses in question tell them to take a running jump....

    >
    > TelstraClear want to introduce the Aussie Internet model here.
    >
    > In Australia, Telstra bought the privatised AARNET peering point a few years
    > back....and gained an effective monopoly on large-scale peering in
    > Australia. They charged all ISPs by the megabyte for exchanged traffic - at
    > one point it was 19 cents / AU / MB...I do not know what it is now.
    >
    > That effectively put a floor under the pricing of every other ISP....and
    > made Telstra sh*tloads of money.
    >
    > > Same old same old, try and form a monopolistic position so you can
    > > charge way over the odds for what you deliver, even when what your
    > > delivering is dropping in cost....throw some spin in on the truth so you
    > > dont actually lie.....guess this is how spin doctors earn thier keep....

    >
    > Agreed. So Kiwis who know what's good for them will not use the services of
    > these two ISPs - either for connection of hosting.


    You were an enthusiastic client of Telstraclear's cable service right up
    until you moved to Foxton.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Jul 5, 2004
    #11
  12. thing

    thing Guest

    David Preece wrote:
    > AD. wrote:
    >
    >> have since changed my mind after hearing
    >> their plans? Those plans apparently include the removal of discounted
    >> national traffic.

    >
    >
    > It's happened already, man. Cable modem users got a "free" upgrade to a
    > 2Mbit connection a few months back (if you asked for it, anyway). In the
    > small print of this new contract *wasn't* different rates for national
    > and international traffic.


    8><+======

    Mine is still 256k, I rang and discussed the option of upgrading, I
    decided not to. Certainly my billing still shows national and
    international traffic charges. If they introduce a cap similar to ADSL
    of 600meg then I will quit, the bill would be around 900 meg chargable
    on top, Im not prepared to have that.

    While I have had broadband since 1998, Im not that adverse to returning
    to dialup if it un-caps my volume, Im not prepared to be ripped off, and
    I would not be surprised if more than a few follow suit. There is a huge
    difference in cost between 5gig for $70 and starting to face volume
    charges I cannot or want to afford.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Jul 5, 2004
    #12
  13. thing

    thing Guest

    Patrick Dunford wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > says...
    >
    >>thing wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>So over the next few months if a certain large ISP thinks its safe to
    >>>try, Im expecting a campaign to try and "recover" its "increasing"
    >>>expenses, by claining this is "fair". It will be interesting to see if
    >>>its just off its own customers or if its going to try and hit its
    >>>"peers" for extra money. If customers have any sense they will simply
    >>>leave and any businesses in question tell them to take a running jump....

    >>
    >>TelstraClear want to introduce the Aussie Internet model here.
    >>
    >>In Australia, Telstra bought the privatised AARNET peering point a few years
    >>back....and gained an effective monopoly on large-scale peering in
    >>Australia. They charged all ISPs by the megabyte for exchanged traffic - at
    >>one point it was 19 cents / AU / MB...I do not know what it is now.
    >>
    >>That effectively put a floor under the pricing of every other ISP....and
    >>made Telstra sh*tloads of money.
    >>
    >>
    >>>Same old same old, try and form a monopolistic position so you can
    >>>charge way over the odds for what you deliver, even when what your
    >>>delivering is dropping in cost....throw some spin in on the truth so you
    >>>dont actually lie.....guess this is how spin doctors earn thier keep....

    >>
    >>Agreed. So Kiwis who know what's good for them will not use the services of
    >>these two ISPs - either for connection of hosting.

    >
    >
    > You were an enthusiastic client of Telstraclear's cable service right up
    > until you moved to Foxton.
    >


    The present exchange is owned by CityLink? While is may well be Clear
    and Xtra could withdraw from it and form thier own, apart from the Cable
    and ADSL users who are stuck with one or other having to return to
    dialup raising the cost of dialup would push ppl into chnaging ISPs I
    assume?

    All I can see at present from this is that the 2 largest telcos would
    proceed to rip off thier best customers, kill thier broadband adoption,
    and give a huge shot for alternative offerings...

    In the long run I cannot see such a scenario as a good move?

    The question I cannot answer as yet is why the NZ Govn has not woken up
    to this and is getting sh*tty with them, because stupidity like this
    just damages our information economy and encourages ppl to stay in the
    dial up dark ages.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, Jul 5, 2004
    #13
  14. thing

    steve Guest

    thing wrote:

    > Patrick Dunford wrote:
    >> In article <>,
    >> says...
    >>
    >>>thing wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>So over the next few months if a certain large ISP thinks its safe to
    >>>>try, Im expecting a campaign to try and "recover" its "increasing"
    >>>>expenses, by claining this is "fair". It will be interesting to see if
    >>>>its just off its own customers or if its going to try and hit its
    >>>>"peers" for extra money. If customers have any sense they will simply
    >>>>leave and any businesses in question tell them to take a running
    >>>>jump....
    >>>
    >>>TelstraClear want to introduce the Aussie Internet model here.
    >>>
    >>>In Australia, Telstra bought the privatised AARNET peering point a few
    >>>years back....and gained an effective monopoly on large-scale peering in
    >>>Australia. They charged all ISPs by the megabyte for exchanged traffic -
    >>>at one point it was 19 cents / AU / MB...I do not know what it is now.
    >>>
    >>>That effectively put a floor under the pricing of every other ISP....and
    >>>made Telstra sh*tloads of money.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Same old same old, try and form a monopolistic position so you can
    >>>>charge way over the odds for what you deliver, even when what your
    >>>>delivering is dropping in cost....throw some spin in on the truth so you
    >>>>dont actually lie.....guess this is how spin doctors earn thier keep....
    >>>
    >>>Agreed. So Kiwis who know what's good for them will not use the services
    >>>of these two ISPs - either for connection of hosting.

    >>
    >>
    >> You were an enthusiastic client of Telstraclear's cable service right up
    >> until you moved to Foxton.


    Then they decided to de-peer. I no longer like them.

    Patrick is incredibly thick, isn't he.....Forcing everyone else to explain
    the bleeding obvious to him.

    > The present exchange is owned by CityLink?


    In name.....but in practice, it's a neutral space. Any ISP can connect there
    and exchange traffic essentially for free (other than the cost of the
    connection and equipment...and maybe some minor hosting fee).

    > While is may well be Clear
    > and Xtra could withdraw from it and form thier own, apart from the Cable
    > and ADSL users who are stuck with one or other having to return to
    > dialup raising the cost of dialup would push ppl into chnaging ISPs I
    > assume?
    >
    > All I can see at present from this is that the 2 largest telcos would
    > proceed to rip off thier best customers, kill thier broadband adoption,
    > and give a huge shot for alternative offerings...


    Maybe not. It couyld be the reverse: connecting to anyone else will be
    slower and more expensive....and unreliable. Which 'reality' pertains will
    depend on where the balance of network power lies: eyes on screens.

    > In the long run I cannot see such a scenario as a good move?


    Me, neither.

    > The question I cannot answer as yet is why the NZ Govn has not woken up
    > to this and is getting sh*tty with them, because stupidity like this
    > just damages our information economy and encourages ppl to stay in the
    > dial up dark ages.
    >
    > regards
    >
    > Thing
     
    steve, Jul 6, 2004
    #14
  15. In article <>,
    says...
    > thing wrote:
    >
    > > Patrick Dunford wrote:
    > >> In article <>,
    > >> says...
    > >>
    > >>>thing wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>So over the next few months if a certain large ISP thinks its safe to
    > >>>>try, Im expecting a campaign to try and "recover" its "increasing"
    > >>>>expenses, by claining this is "fair". It will be interesting to see if
    > >>>>its just off its own customers or if its going to try and hit its
    > >>>>"peers" for extra money. If customers have any sense they will simply
    > >>>>leave and any businesses in question tell them to take a running
    > >>>>jump....
    > >>>
    > >>>TelstraClear want to introduce the Aussie Internet model here.
    > >>>
    > >>>In Australia, Telstra bought the privatised AARNET peering point a few
    > >>>years back....and gained an effective monopoly on large-scale peering in
    > >>>Australia. They charged all ISPs by the megabyte for exchanged traffic -
    > >>>at one point it was 19 cents / AU / MB...I do not know what it is now.
    > >>>
    > >>>That effectively put a floor under the pricing of every other ISP....and
    > >>>made Telstra sh*tloads of money.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>Same old same old, try and form a monopolistic position so you can
    > >>>>charge way over the odds for what you deliver, even when what your
    > >>>>delivering is dropping in cost....throw some spin in on the truth so you
    > >>>>dont actually lie.....guess this is how spin doctors earn thier keep....
    > >>>
    > >>>Agreed. So Kiwis who know what's good for them will not use the services
    > >>>of these two ISPs - either for connection of hosting.
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> You were an enthusiastic client of Telstraclear's cable service right up
    > >> until you moved to Foxton.

    >
    > Then they decided to de-peer. I no longer like them.
    >
    > Patrick is incredibly thick, isn't he.....Forcing everyone else to explain
    > the bleeding obvious to him.


    If you choose not to make things clear, that is your responsibility. It
    was not at all clear until recently that your choice had any other
    rationale to it than the lack of Telstra cable in your new residence.
     
    Patrick Dunford, Jul 6, 2004
    #15
  16. thing

    mark Guest

    steve <> wrote in
    news::

    > Agreed. So Kiwis who know what's good for them will not use the
    > services of these two ISPs - either for connection of hosting.
    >
    > That would mean most people on braodband going back to dial services.
    > How likely is THAT to happen?



    I have already. I was on ADSL for over a year, but after moving house and
    being told by Telecom I'd have to pay $99 "moving" fee plus a $99
    "connection" fee, I've decided to use my free dialup instead. If Telecom
    redo a join for free deal, I might reconsider hooking up to ADSL, in the
    interim perhaps a wireless network will reach my area ;-)
     
    mark, Jul 7, 2004
    #16
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