Scams and Bank Account Numbers

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by BitBandit@gmail.com, Nov 17, 2005.

  1. Guest

    I've been reading the December edition of Net Guide and they've got an
    article on how to avoid getting scammed online. It contains all the
    usual advice about never giving out your bank account number, etc.

    This got me thinking: if someone wanted to clean out my bank account
    then wouldn't they need to know more than just my bank account number?
    Surely just having my name and account number wouldn't be enough for
    anyone to transfer money out of my account, would it?

    I've had several people give me their account numbers so I can make
    payments directly into their accounts. Surely I can't use this info to
    transfer money out of their accounts instead of into them?

    So how do these scam guys get the money out?
     
    , Nov 17, 2005
    #1
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  2. thing2 Guest

    wrote:
    > I've been reading the December edition of Net Guide and they've got an
    > article on how to avoid getting scammed online. It contains all the
    > usual advice about never giving out your bank account number, etc.
    >
    > This got me thinking: if someone wanted to clean out my bank account
    > then wouldn't they need to know more than just my bank account number?
    > Surely just having my name and account number wouldn't be enough for
    > anyone to transfer money out of my account, would it?
    >
    > I've had several people give me their account numbers so I can make
    > payments directly into their accounts. Surely I can't use this info to
    > transfer money out of their accounts instead of into them?
    >
    > So how do these scam guys get the money out?
    >



    A good Q.

    If the bank transferred it and you didnt authorise it, I dont see how
    you can be held liable.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing2, Nov 17, 2005
    #2
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  3. "thing2" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > wrote:
    >> I've been reading the December edition of Net Guide and they've got an
    >> article on how to avoid getting scammed online. It contains all the
    >> usual advice about never giving out your bank account number, etc.
    >>
    >> This got me thinking: if someone wanted to clean out my bank account
    >> then wouldn't they need to know more than just my bank account number?
    >> Surely just having my name and account number wouldn't be enough for
    >> anyone to transfer money out of my account, would it?
    >>
    >> I've had several people give me their account numbers so I can make
    >> payments directly into their accounts. Surely I can't use this info to
    >> transfer money out of their accounts instead of into them?
    >>
    >> So how do these scam guys get the money out?
    >>

    >
    >
    > A good Q.
    >
    > If the bank transferred it and you didnt authorise it, I dont see how you
    > can be held liable.
    >
    > regards
    >
    > Thing


    A bank would never let you do a transfer with just that information.

    Thats why it is important to shred sensitive documents. Perhaps a criminal
    could go through your garbage and find out enough information about you to
    do a transfer.
     
    news.xtra.co.nz, Nov 17, 2005
    #3
  4. Peter Guest

    On 16 Nov 2005 19:25:34 -0800, wrote:

    >I've been reading the December edition of Net Guide and they've got an
    >article on how to avoid getting scammed online. It contains all the
    >usual advice about never giving out your bank account number, etc.
    >
    >This got me thinking: if someone wanted to clean out my bank account
    >then wouldn't they need to know more than just my bank account number?
    >Surely just having my name and account number wouldn't be enough for
    >anyone to transfer money out of my account, would it?
    >
    >I've had several people give me their account numbers so I can make
    >payments directly into their accounts. Surely I can't use this info to
    >transfer money out of their accounts instead of into them?
    >
    >So how do these scam guys get the money out?
    >

    A few years ago, I did suggest to BNZ that they issue an organisation
    of which I was Treasurer an alias bank account number available for
    deposits only, but blocked for withdrawals.

    They were not remotely intersted.

    Like when I asked for a serial numbered deposit book - again 'no can
    do'.
     
    Peter, Nov 17, 2005
    #4
  5. Alan Guest

    "Peter" <> wrote in message
    news:
    > On 16 Nov 2005 19:25:34 -0800, wrote:
    >
    > A few years ago, I did suggest to BNZ that they issue an

    organisation
    > of which I was Treasurer an alias bank account number available for
    > deposits only, but blocked for withdrawals.
    >


    That's quite interesting.

    Ignoring the 'aliased' part, are you saying that they would not put a
    block on an account to stop any manually instigated withdrawals
    (sweeps of the entire balance to another account being done
    automatically each night?

    If so, that is quite disappointing.

    Alan.

    --
    The views expressed are my own, and not those of my employer or anyone
    else associated with me.

    My current valid email address is:



    This is valid as is. It is not munged, or altered at all.

    It will be valid for AT LEAST one month from the date of this post.

    If you are trying to contact me after that time,
    it MAY still be valid, but may also have been
    deactivated due to spam. If so, and you want
    to contact me by email, try searching for a
    more recent post by me to find my current
    email address
     
    Alan, Nov 17, 2005
    #5
  6. In article <>,
    wrote:

    > I've been reading the December edition of Net Guide and they've got an
    > article on how to avoid getting scammed online. It contains all the
    > usual advice about never giving out your bank account number, etc.
    >
    > This got me thinking: if someone wanted to clean out my bank account
    > then wouldn't they need to know more than just my bank account number?
    > Surely just having my name and account number wouldn't be enough for
    > anyone to transfer money out of my account, would it?
    >
    > I've had several people give me their account numbers so I can make
    > payments directly into their accounts. Surely I can't use this info to
    > transfer money out of their accounts instead of into them?


    To the best of my knowledge, there is absolutely no way that anyone can
    withdraw funds from a bank account by providing only the account number.

    Netguide's advice is still sound, though, because if a potential thief
    knows your bank account number, then they only have to find out your
    password, forge your signature, etc. in order to defraud you. It's fine
    to give out your bank account number to people from whom you are
    expecting payments, but don't give it out to anyone without a good
    reason.

    --
    Regards, Alastair.
    Wellington, New Zealand
    www.alastair.geek.nz

    Any opinions expressed in this posting are my own, and do not
    necessarily reflect the views of any other individual or organisation.
     
    Alastair.geek.nz, Nov 17, 2005
    #6
  7. Max Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I've been reading the December edition of Net Guide and they've got an
    > article on how to avoid getting scammed online. It contains all the
    > usual advice about never giving out your bank account number, etc.
    >
    > This got me thinking: if someone wanted to clean out my bank account
    > then wouldn't they need to know more than just my bank account number?
    > Surely just having my name and account number wouldn't be enough for
    > anyone to transfer money out of my account, would it?
    >
    > I've had several people give me their account numbers so I can make
    > payments directly into their accounts. Surely I can't use this info to
    > transfer money out of their accounts instead of into them?
    >
    > So how do these scam guys get the money out?
    >


    Companies who accept direct credits or automatic payments, will normally
    have their bank account number pasted on their website. Even trademe
    safetrader has their bank account number advertised.
    I don't believe Netguides advice regarding bank account numbers is valid,
    and surely banks would warn you of this if it was an issue. Netguide is a
    pretty rubbishy magazine anyway. PC World is far better.
     
    Max, Nov 17, 2005
    #7
  8. Richard Guest

    wrote:
    > I've been reading the December edition of Net Guide and they've got an
    > article on how to avoid getting scammed online. It contains all the
    > usual advice about never giving out your bank account number, etc.
    >
    > This got me thinking: if someone wanted to clean out my bank account
    > then wouldn't they need to know more than just my bank account number?
    > Surely just having my name and account number wouldn't be enough for
    > anyone to transfer money out of my account, would it?
    >
    > I've had several people give me their account numbers so I can make
    > payments directly into their accounts. Surely I can't use this info to
    > transfer money out of their accounts instead of into them?
    >
    > So how do these scam guys get the money out?


    Its much easier in the states then here to get money out, and thats where these
    lists of advice come from.
     
    Richard, Nov 17, 2005
    #8
  9. Max Guest

    "Richard" <> wrote in message
    news:437c34c4$...
    > wrote:
    > > I've been reading the December edition of Net Guide and they've got an
    > > article on how to avoid getting scammed online. It contains all the
    > > usual advice about never giving out your bank account number, etc.
    > >
    > > This got me thinking: if someone wanted to clean out my bank account
    > > then wouldn't they need to know more than just my bank account number?
    > > Surely just having my name and account number wouldn't be enough for
    > > anyone to transfer money out of my account, would it?
    > >
    > > I've had several people give me their account numbers so I can make
    > > payments directly into their accounts. Surely I can't use this info to
    > > transfer money out of their accounts instead of into them?
    > >
    > > So how do these scam guys get the money out?

    >
    > Its much easier in the states then here to get money out, and thats where

    these
    > lists of advice come from.


    Thats proably where the Netguide copied their information from(some US
    website or mag), so probably doesn't really apply here.
     
    Max, Nov 17, 2005
    #9
  10. Craig Shore Guest

    On 16 Nov 2005 19:25:34 -0800, wrote:

    >I've been reading the December edition of Net Guide and they've got an
    >article on how to avoid getting scammed online. It contains all the
    >usual advice about never giving out your bank account number, etc.
    >
    >This got me thinking: if someone wanted to clean out my bank account
    >then wouldn't they need to know more than just my bank account number?
    >Surely just having my name and account number wouldn't be enough for
    >anyone to transfer money out of my account, would it?
    >
    >I've had several people give me their account numbers so I can make
    >payments directly into their accounts. Surely I can't use this info to
    >transfer money out of their accounts instead of into them?
    >
    >So how do these scam guys get the money out?


    They get your password as well, then login just like you would and transfer all
    your money out.

    The most common scam is an email telling you that unless you verify your account
    now access is going to be blocked to you, and they provide a clickable link to
    their site. The only thing is it's a fake of the banks www site and people try
    to log into it using their account number and password. The scam guys log this
    information and use it to get onto the real banks site and into your account.

    The other way is to install a keylogger or remote access program onto your
    computer and get your account number and password that way. This is less common
    than the above.


    Here's a sample fraudulant (sp?) message I received looking like it came from my
    bank. If you look really carefully you'll see in the first url they used a lower
    case L instead of an i in the word direct. There was an html version attached to
    the email that had all the graphics off the banks www site.


    ====================================================
    Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:50:14 -0700
    From: Bankdirect Accounts <>
    Subject: Anti-fraud notification
    To: Craigshore <>
    Message-id: <>


    ERROR(XCF1P1) We were unable to process your recent transactions on your
    account.
    To ensure that your account is not suspended, please update your
    information
    http://www.bankdlrect.co.nz/index_secure.asp

    Introducing netCODE a 'second layer' authentication service that will
    further protect you when you're banking in NetDirect. Before an online
    payment or group of payments greater than $2,500 in one day can be made
    from your account, netCODE confirms your identify via a text message sent
    to your mobile phone. Click here for more.
    http://www.bankdIrect.co.nz/promotions/netcode/

    This Internet banking system is for use by authorised BankDirect customers
    only. Unauthorised access is prohibited and may result in criminal charges
    being laid. To become an authorised BankDirect customer contact a
    BankDirect Banking Consultant on 0800 500 400.

    The information on this Internet site is based on information held by
    BankDirect.
    While every endeavour has been made to ensure the information is accurate,
    errors and omissions may occur and interest rates and fees may change. For
    current rates and fees, or to notify us of an apparent error or omission,
    contact BankDirect by calling 0800 500 400. To see BankDirect's standard
    Terms and Conditions or any rules governing this Internet site and the
    services offered, click LEGAL at the bottom of each page.

    BankDirect is part of ASB Bank Limited. A copy of ASB BANK's Disclosure
    Statement is available at www.asbbank.co.nz, on request from BankDirect on
    0800 500 400 or from any ASB BANK branch.
     
    Craig Shore, Nov 17, 2005
    #10
  11. Peter Guest

    On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:17:31 +1300, "Alan" <> wrote:

    >Ignoring the 'aliased' part, are you saying that they would not put a
    >block on an account to stop any manually instigated withdrawals
    >(sweeps of the entire balance to another account being done
    >automatically each night?
    >
    >If so, that is quite disappointing.
    >

    I did not want a completely separate account, just the equivalent of a
    'faxability' number on the main account. The idea of a separate
    account did not occur to me or the bank officer.
     
    Peter, Nov 17, 2005
    #11
  12. PAM. Guest

    "Craig Shore" <> wrote in message
    > They get your password as well, then login just like you would and

    transfer all
    > your money out.
    >
    > The most common scam is an email telling you that unless you verify your

    account
    > now access is going to be blocked to you, and they provide a clickable

    link to
    > their site. The only thing is it's a fake of the banks www site and

    people try
    > to log into it using their account number and password. The scam guys log

    this
    > information and use it to get onto the real banks site and into your

    account.

    One reason I like/d First Direct in UK.

    For phone banking, you have to give:
    3 characters in the order they requested, from your password.
    and 2 of the following
    A favourite date
    A favourite place
    Mothers maiden name
    I think there's another but not sure.

    For internet banking:
    a n 8 digit support id
    a 10 digit access id
    3 characters in the order they requested, from your password.

    Forget them and you're stuffed. :)

    PAM.
     
    PAM., Nov 17, 2005
    #12
  13. Alan Guest

    "Peter" <> wrote in message
    news:
    > On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:17:31 +1300, "Alan" <> wrote:
    >
    >> Ignoring the 'aliased' part, are you saying that they would not put

    a
    >> block on an account to stop any manually instigated withdrawals
    >> (sweeps of the entire balance to another account being done
    >> automatically each night?
    >>
    >> If so, that is quite disappointing.
    >>

    > I did not want a completely separate account, just the equivalent of

    a
    > 'faxability' number on the main account. The idea of a separate
    > account did not occur to me or the bank officer.
    >


    Ah, well I guess I can understand them not being able to have one
    account with multiple account numbers associated with it.

    I would suggest you would be best having a separate account. The
    reconciliation / admin is no more if it is cleared fully each night.

    Moot point I suspect!

    Alan.


    --
    The views expressed are my own, and not those of my employer or anyone
    else associated with me.

    My current valid email address is:



    This is valid as is. It is not munged, or altered at all.

    It will be valid for AT LEAST one month from the date of this post.

    If you are trying to contact me after that time,
    it MAY still be valid, but may also have been
    deactivated due to spam. If so, and you want
    to contact me by email, try searching for a
    more recent post by me to find my current
    email address
     
    Alan, Nov 18, 2005
    #13
  14. Peter Guest

    Alan wrote:


    > Ah, well I guess I can understand them not being able to have one
    > account with multiple account numbers associated with it.
    >

    They can, actually. This is what happens if you change branch (although
    granted the disadvantages of having an account at a distant branch have
    nearly evaporated).
     
    Peter, Nov 18, 2005
    #14
  15. Alan Guest

    "Peter" <> wrote in message
    news:
    > Alan wrote:
    >
    >
    >> Ah, well I guess I can understand them not being able to have one
    >> account with multiple account numbers associated with it.
    >>

    > They can, actually. This is what happens if you change branch
    > (although granted the disadvantages of having an account at a

    distant
    > branch have nearly evaporated).


    You learn something new everyday!

    I had assumed they maintained the old account and swept it to your new
    account daily.

    Perhaps you had the answer all along - set up an account in one
    branch, transfer it to another, and give out the original account
    number to your debtors.

    Not sure that the first branch manager would be too impressed though!

    Alan.

    --
    The views expressed are my own, and not those of my employer or anyone
    else associated with me.

    My current valid email address is:



    This is valid as is. It is not munged, or altered at all.

    It will be valid for AT LEAST one month from the date of this post.

    If you are trying to contact me after that time,
    it MAY still be valid, but may also have been
    deactivated due to spam. If so, and you want
    to contact me by email, try searching for a
    more recent post by me to find my current
    email address
     
    Alan, Nov 18, 2005
    #15
  16. A Guest

    On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 21:11:24 +1300, Craig Shore
    <> wrote:

    >On 16 Nov 2005 19:25:34 -0800, wrote:
    >
    >>I've been reading the December edition of Net Guide and they've got an
    >>article on how to avoid getting scammed online. It contains all the
    >>usual advice about never giving out your bank account number, etc.
    >>
    >>This got me thinking: if someone wanted to clean out my bank account
    >>then wouldn't they need to know more than just my bank account number?
    >>Surely just having my name and account number wouldn't be enough for
    >>anyone to transfer money out of my account, would it?
    >>
    >>I've had several people give me their account numbers so I can make
    >>payments directly into their accounts. Surely I can't use this info to
    >>transfer money out of their accounts instead of into them?
    >>
    >>So how do these scam guys get the money out?

    >
    >They get your password as well, then login just like you would and transfer all
    >your money out.


    If they're transferring the funds to another NZ account (most banks
    don't allow international money transfers via the internet) then its
    highly traceable.

    With the Financial Transactions Reporting Act (or whatever its called)
    that was passed last year or so, Bank's need to Know Your Customer and
    now require formal ID to open accounts (or verify existing ones).
    Therefore will know who the real owner of the account is and the
    Police will be able to get them. Prior to this it was quite easy to
    open an account under a false name.

    I guess one way to get around this is for a thief to get access to an
    account via say a stolen cheque or eftpos card (with PIN), hack into
    someone elses internet account and transfer money to the first account
    and then go in and take the funds out either by a cash cheque or
    eftpos card (assuming they have the PIN).
     
    A, Nov 18, 2005
    #16
  17. Richard Guest

    A wrote:

    > If they're transferring the funds to another NZ account (most banks
    > don't allow international money transfers via the internet) then its
    > highly traceable.
    >
    > With the Financial Transactions Reporting Act (or whatever its called)
    > that was passed last year or so, Bank's need to Know Your Customer and
    > now require formal ID to open accounts (or verify existing ones).
    > Therefore will know who the real owner of the account is and the
    > Police will be able to get them. Prior to this it was quite easy to
    > open an account under a false name.


    And its not hard to buy a drivers license from a returning student or tourist?
    nahh, not at all..

    > I guess one way to get around this is for a thief to get access to an
    > account via say a stolen cheque or eftpos card (with PIN), hack into
    > someone elses internet account and transfer money to the first account
    > and then go in and take the funds out either by a cash cheque or
    > eftpos card (assuming they have the PIN).


    Why bother to do that when they can just recruit stupid people to do it and then
    western union the money to them overseas?
     
    Richard, Nov 18, 2005
    #17
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