Sanyo eneloop at Costco

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by SMS, Aug 29, 2007.

  1. SMS

    SMS Guest

    I think this has been reported in some other forums, but Costco is now
    selling eneloops. The one near me just got them.

    Costco now sells a Sanyo eneloop "Power Pack" consisting of eight AA
    cells (2000mAH), four AAA cells (800mAH), two C size adapters, two D
    size adapters, and a charger for $26.49.

    Go to the web site "http://batterydata.com" and at the top click on
    "New: Sanyo eneloop Batteries Now at Costco." I've added a picture of
    the product as well.

    Steve
    "http://batterydata.com"
    "Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Digital Camera Battery Information"
     
    SMS, Aug 29, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. SMS <> wrote:
    > I think this has been reported in some other forums, but Costco is now
    > selling eneloops. The one near me just got them.
    >
    > Costco now sells a Sanyo eneloop "Power Pack" consisting of eight AA
    > cells (2000mAH), four AAA cells (800mAH), two C size adapters, two D
    > size adapters, and a charger for $26.49.
    >
    > Go to the web site "http://batterydata.com" and at the top click on
    > "New: Sanyo eneloop Batteries Now at Costco." I've added a picture of
    > the product as well.
    >


    Very cool ... except I don't need them anymore ... they are a year too late in
    stocking them :-(

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse

    We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
    machinations of the wicked.
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Aug 29, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. SMS

    Dave Cohen Guest

    SMS wrote:
    > I think this has been reported in some other forums, but Costco is now
    > selling eneloops. The one near me just got them.
    >
    > Costco now sells a Sanyo eneloop "Power Pack" consisting of eight AA
    > cells (2000mAH), four AAA cells (800mAH), two C size adapters, two D
    > size adapters, and a charger for $26.49.
    >
    > Go to the web site "http://batterydata.com" and at the top click on
    > "New: Sanyo eneloop Batteries Now at Costco." I've added a picture of
    > the product as well.
    >
    > Steve
    > "http://batterydata.com"
    > "Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Digital Camera Battery
    > Information"


    Some of the information on that link is not in agreement with statements
    I've seen stated on vendor sites. Also, clicking on the first link
    doesn't get me to any info on Costco.
    I don't really care whether the info stated is correct or not, I've been
    using NiMH long enough to know the way I am using them suits me fine,
    but it might be of interest to know the information source for the
    claims made.
    Dave Cohen
     
    Dave Cohen, Aug 29, 2007
    #3
  4. SMS

    SMS Guest

    Dave Cohen wrote:

    > Some of the information on that link is not in agreement with statements
    > I've seen stated on vendor sites. Also, clicking on the first link
    > doesn't get me to any info on Costco.


    It linked to the photo of the package. I've changed it to link to a
    short blurb on the contents.

    > I don't really care whether the info stated is correct or not, I've been
    > using NiMH long enough to know the way I am using them suits me fine,
    > but it might be of interest to know the information source for the
    > claims made.


    Which claims? Everything on the site came from a reliable source, either
    a battery manufacturer, charger manufacturer, semiconductor
    manufacturer, or acknowledged battery expert.
     
    SMS, Aug 29, 2007
    #4
  5. SMS <> wrote:
    >
    > Which claims? Everything on the site came from a reliable source, either
    > a battery manufacturer, charger manufacturer, semiconductor
    > manufacturer, or acknowledged battery expert.


    Really? Then provide your source for this:

    "On the other hand, Li-Ion battery packs have a number of technical advantages
    over NiMH batteries, including a much lower self-discharge rate, greater
    energy density (in terms of both weight and volume), far better
    low-temperature performance, a greater maximum number of charge/discharge
    cycles, and the ability for the camera to provide a fairly accurate indication
    of remaining capacity. This is why virtually every new digital SLR, and
    virtually every high end digital camera, uses Li-Ion battery packs. It's also
    why notebook computers, PDAs, cell phones, MP3 players, etc., use Li-Ion
    battery packs. After-market Li-Ion battery packs are available at very good
    prices, in fact if you look at the big picture and compute the total cost
    including accounting for the number of charge cycles, Li-Ion batteries are
    often less expensive. Now even some high-end rechargeable bicycle lights and
    flashlights are using Li-Ion batteries."

    .... "including a much lower self-discharge rate" ... is currently debatable
    with the advent of low self discharge NiMH batteries such as Eneloops.

    .... "a greater maximum number of charge/discharge cycles" ....
    .... "and the ability for the camera to provide a fairly accurate indication
    of remaining capacity" .... and I don't think any expert wrote that in the
    context that you are using it.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse

    We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
    machinations of the wicked.
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Aug 29, 2007
    #5
  6. SMS

    Guest

    (SMS) wrote:


    " http://batterydata.com "

    " Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Digital Camera Battery
    Information "

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Or so you claim. (if you blow your own horn,
    it's usually as a distraction)


    What does ASAAR have to say about that?
     
    , Aug 29, 2007
    #6
  7. SMS

    ASAAR Guest

    On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:46:52 -0400, wrote:

    >> " Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Digital Camera Battery
    >> Information "


    > Or so you claim. (if you blow your own horn,
    > it's usually as a distraction)
    >
    >
    > What does ASAAR have to say about that?


    I guess you already know. :) SMS's website has some good
    information, some bad, and being SMS's vanity project, is about the
    most biased source of information that's possible to find, short of
    political advocacy websites.

    As far as the Eneloop battery/charger kit goes, Costco has it for
    a decent price, essentially charging regular prices for the
    batteries and including the charger, C and D cell adapters at no
    extra cost. But it's less of a bargain if you don't need or can't
    find a use for all 12 Eneloop batteries.

    The main reason for the post was probably that it gave him another
    excuse to shill his website. Little information was given beyond
    what was already included in his message. FWIW, this Eneloop
    package is an exclusive Costco deal and isn't available over the
    internet. You can only buy it from a Costco warehouse. As some
    have it in stock and others don't, it would be wise to check
    availability in advance. Costco's item number for this Eneloop kit
    is 183245.

    A couple of months ago (approx.), SMS was comparing the costs of
    getting a charger with a couple of batteries, and as usual distorted
    the prices completely in favor of Li-Ion over NiMH, claiming that
    you'd pay about $50 for a NiMH solution, about double what he was
    quoting for Li-Ion prices. This despite the fact that many stores
    sell chargers with NiMH batteries for $20 to $35, and one person
    even posted that he found a Duracell charger with batteries for
    (IIRC) on sale for $15 at Walgreens. So now SMS, to drum up website
    traffic, posts info. about this Eneloop kit that includes 12 Eneloop
    batteries for $26.49. Let's see if he remembers this the next time
    he quotes battery/charger prices.

    Also a bit odd was that in trying to scare people away from
    reasonably priced chargers, he usually advises that very expensive
    NiMH "conditioning" smart chargers having individual circuits and
    displays for all cells should be used. No hint of this warning was
    given about the Eneloop charger, which has only one indicator LED
    for all four charge bays and no conditioning (discharge) circuit.
    No matter. The charger will do its job well, if somewhat slowly.

    BTW, his website still touts Li-Ion batteries as having much lower
    self discharge than standard NiMH batteries (true), but fails to
    note any distinction between Li-Ion and Eneloop type batteries, even
    though Li-Ion batteries need to be returned to their chargers *much*
    sooner than Eneloops, when both types aren't used for long periods.
     
    ASAAR, Aug 30, 2007
    #7
  8. SMS

    sw2U Guest

    In article <46d4dadb$0$27189$>,
    says...
    > I think this has been reported in some other forums, but Costco is now
    > selling eneloops. The one near me just got them.
    >
    > Costco now sells a Sanyo eneloop "Power Pack" consisting of eight AA
    > cells (2000mAH), four AAA cells (800mAH), two C size adapters, two D
    > size adapters, and a charger for $26.49.
    >


    That's good news, because in my area, few places sell Eneloops, and
    those few ONLY sell the batteries with a charger. I think I saw a
    couple of packages of just batteries back around last Christmas,
    but haven't seen any since. And the place that had those appears to
    no longer sell Eneloops.

    I get the impression Sanyo is better at making batteries than at
    marketing them.

    --
    sw2U
     
    sw2U, Aug 30, 2007
    #8
  9. Thomas T. Veldhouse <> wrote:
    > SMS <> wrote:
    >>
    >> Which claims? Everything on the site came from a reliable source, either
    >> a battery manufacturer, charger manufacturer, semiconductor
    >> manufacturer, or acknowledged battery expert.

    >
    > Really? Then provide your source for this:
    >
    > "On the other hand, Li-Ion battery packs have a number of technical advantages
    > over NiMH batteries, including a much lower self-discharge rate, greater
    > energy density (in terms of both weight and volume), far better
    > low-temperature performance, a greater maximum number of charge/discharge
    > cycles, and the ability for the camera to provide a fairly accurate indication
    > of remaining capacity. This is why virtually every new digital SLR, and
    > virtually every high end digital camera, uses Li-Ion battery packs. It's also
    > why notebook computers, PDAs, cell phones, MP3 players, etc., use Li-Ion
    > battery packs. After-market Li-Ion battery packs are available at very good
    > prices, in fact if you look at the big picture and compute the total cost
    > including accounting for the number of charge cycles, Li-Ion batteries are
    > often less expensive. Now even some high-end rechargeable bicycle lights and
    > flashlights are using Li-Ion batteries."
    >
    > ... "including a much lower self-discharge rate" ... is currently debatable
    > with the advent of low self discharge NiMH batteries such as Eneloops.
    >
    > ... "a greater maximum number of charge/discharge cycles" ....
    > ... "and the ability for the camera to provide a fairly accurate indication
    > of remaining capacity" .... and I don't think any expert wrote that in the
    > context that you are using it.
    >


    Funny how SMS simply goes silent with presented with an obvious answer and
    counter to his question and assertion.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse

    We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
    machinations of the wicked.
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Aug 30, 2007
    #9
  10. sw2U <> wrote:
    >
    > That's good news, because in my area, few places sell Eneloops, and
    > those few ONLY sell the batteries with a charger. I think I saw a
    > couple of packages of just batteries back around last Christmas,
    > but haven't seen any since. And the place that had those appears to
    > no longer sell Eneloops.
    >
    > I get the impression Sanyo is better at making batteries than at
    > marketing them.
    >


    Most retailers have been slow to understand the meaning of "low
    self-discharge", so I suspect they haven't jumped to put them on endcaps.
    To take this thought further, they are probably hesistant to carry multiple
    brands of NiMH batteries that are only 2000-2100mAh when they can sell those
    2500-2700mAh batteries knowing they have "bigger" numbers. They are slowly
    learning however.

    BTW ... you can always buy Eneloops at a good price on Amazon.com. My last
    purchase was 8-AA Eneloops for $19.99. I bought a few Nexcell C and D
    adapters and have these batteries in clocks, digital thermometers, remotes,
    certain medical equipment, mouse and keyboard, etc. All these are
    applications where the traditional NiMH batteries would have failed due to
    self-discharge, but is no longer a problem with these new batteries. One
    healthy star for me and the environment.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse

    We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
    machinations of the wicked.
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Aug 30, 2007
    #10
  11. SMS

    ASAAR Guest

    On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:51:24 GMT, Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:

    >>> Which claims? Everything on the site came from a reliable source,
    >>> either a battery manufacturer, charger manufacturer, semiconductor
    >>> manufacturer, or acknowledged battery expert.

    > . . .
    >
    > Funny how SMS simply goes silent with presented with an obvious
    > answer and counter to his question and assertion.


    I noticed that long ago, too. The source of one of the quotes on
    his website is just a reply from this newsgroup from someone that
    simply used more NiMH batteries and chargers than most of the others
    in this newsgroup, but AFAIK was not a battery manufacturer, a
    charger manufacturer, a semiconductor manufacturer or an
    acknowledged battery expert. I'm sure that if you or I had shared
    SMS's Li-Ion bias and often parroted his statements, we too might
    have been quoted on his website and been lumped in with all of the
    other "acknowledged battery experts". Acknowledged by SMS, that is.
     
    ASAAR, Aug 30, 2007
    #11
  12. SMS

    Dave Cohen Guest

    Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
    > sw2U <> wrote:
    >> That's good news, because in my area, few places sell Eneloops, and
    >> those few ONLY sell the batteries with a charger. I think I saw a
    >> couple of packages of just batteries back around last Christmas,
    >> but haven't seen any since. And the place that had those appears to
    >> no longer sell Eneloops.
    >>
    >> I get the impression Sanyo is better at making batteries than at
    >> marketing them.
    >>

    >
    > Most retailers have been slow to understand the meaning of "low
    > self-discharge", so I suspect they haven't jumped to put them on endcaps.
    > To take this thought further, they are probably hesistant to carry multiple
    > brands of NiMH batteries that are only 2000-2100mAh when they can sell those
    > 2500-2700mAh batteries knowing they have "bigger" numbers. They are slowly
    > learning however.
    >
    > BTW ... you can always buy Eneloops at a good price on Amazon.com. My last
    > purchase was 8-AA Eneloops for $19.99. I bought a few Nexcell C and D
    > adapters and have these batteries in clocks, digital thermometers, remotes,
    > certain medical equipment, mouse and keyboard, etc. All these are
    > applications where the traditional NiMH batteries would have failed due to
    > self-discharge, but is no longer a problem with these new batteries. One
    > healthy star for me and the environment.
    >


    Buying Eneloops is a problem. I got mine from Ritz and only paid $12 for
    a set of 4.
    I've seen them elsewhere at a higher price.
    Walmart carry Hybrids by Rayovac, these are same technology licensed
    from Sanyo. I have 4 Hybrid AAA's which I am using in an .mp3 player
    (single cell) and just got an Olympus voice recorder which uses two. I
    tend to charge the one in the .mp3 unit sufficiently frequently that I
    might do better with a normal NiMH of higher capacity, but who cares.
    Walmart are also carrying a low discharge pack of 4 AA's by Kodak which
    look to be the same thing. I use a charger from Green Batteries which
    does individual cells in 2 -3 hours.
    I am still patiently waiting for the 4 Eneloops in my A95 to tell me
    it's time for a charge. It will be a year come November since they were
    last fed. I got 652 shots out of the package and am currently at 267
    shots. Never got much over 150 shots in 4 months using normal NiMH.
    Dave Cohen
     
    Dave Cohen, Aug 30, 2007
    #12
  13. ASAAR <> wrote:
    > I'm sure that if you or I had shared
    > SMS's Li-Ion bias and often parroted his statements, we too might
    > have been quoted on his website and been lumped in with all of the
    > other "acknowledged battery experts". Acknowledged by SMS, that is.
    >


    I could only hope for so much fame.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse

    We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
    machinations of the wicked.
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Aug 30, 2007
    #13
  14. Dave Cohen <> wrote:
    >
    > Buying Eneloops is a problem. I got mine from Ritz and only paid $12 for
    > a set of 4.


    I don't have a problem and most urban residents won't either. May not be big
    box discount retailers selling them [although I understand Walmart is now
    selling them], but they are around. Circuit City is one. Ritz you mention as
    well. They are easily available online as I have mentioned and I know for a
    FACT that everybody reading here has access to the Internet ;-)

    > I've seen them elsewhere at a higher price.
    > Walmart carry Hybrids by Rayovac, these are same technology licensed
    > from Sanyo.


    I wouldn't be so sure about that. If it was the same technology licensed from
    Sanyo, I would expect the same capacity ratings after one year, but they are
    different. Further, if it were the same technology, I would expect that Sanyo
    would be selling cells with the same capacity [or higher] than those they
    license too. In short, I do not think they have licensed the technology for
    use in Rayovac [built by Spectrum in China ... as are Hybrio], but rather a
    similar technology developed in parallel.

    >
    > I have 4 Hybrid AAA's which I am using in an .mp3 player
    > (single cell) and just got an Olympus voice recorder which uses two. I
    > tend to charge the one in the .mp3 unit sufficiently frequently that I
    > might do better with a normal NiMH of higher capacity, but who cares.
    > Walmart are also carrying a low discharge pack of 4 AA's by Kodak which
    > look to be the same thing. I use a charger from Green Batteries which
    > does individual cells in 2 -3 hours.


    I use Rayovac Hybrid batteries as well. I tend to use them in devices that
    aren't going to sit quite as long and higher capacity may be useful [although
    we are only talking about 100mAh]. I tend to use the Hybrids in my Nikon
    SB-600 and the Eneloops in all my very low current applications like clocks,
    thermometers, remotes, etc.

    > I am still patiently waiting for the 4 Eneloops in my A95 to tell me
    > it's time for a charge. It will be a year come November since they were
    > last fed. I got 652 shots out of the package and am currently at 267
    > shots. Never got much over 150 shots in 4 months using normal NiMH.


    Yes, they are great batteries which easily can replace alkaline in most
    situations [I still use alkaline in my weather radio ... although sometimes I
    wish the damn thing would go dead in the middle of the night].

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse

    We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
    machinations of the wicked.
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Aug 30, 2007
    #14
  15. SMS

    SMS Guest

    Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
    > Thomas T. Veldhouse <> wrote:
    >> SMS <> wrote:
    >>> Which claims? Everything on the site came from a reliable source, either
    >>> a battery manufacturer, charger manufacturer, semiconductor
    >>> manufacturer, or acknowledged battery expert.

    >> Really? Then provide your source for this:
    >>
    >> "On the other hand, Li-Ion battery packs have a number of technical advantages
    >> over NiMH batteries, including a much lower self-discharge rate, greater
    >> energy density (in terms of both weight and volume), far better
    >> low-temperature performance, a greater maximum number of charge/discharge
    >> cycles, and the ability for the camera to provide a fairly accurate indication
    >> of remaining capacity. This is why virtually every new digital SLR, and
    >> virtually every high end digital camera, uses Li-Ion battery packs. It's also
    >> why notebook computers, PDAs, cell phones, MP3 players, etc., use Li-Ion
    >> battery packs. After-market Li-Ion battery packs are available at very good
    >> prices, in fact if you look at the big picture and compute the total cost
    >> including accounting for the number of charge cycles, Li-Ion batteries are
    >> often less expensive. Now even some high-end rechargeable bicycle lights and
    >> flashlights are using Li-Ion batteries."
    >>
    >> ... "including a much lower self-discharge rate" ... is currently debatable
    >> with the advent of low self discharge NiMH batteries such as Eneloops.
    >>
    >> ... "a greater maximum number of charge/discharge cycles" ....
    >> ... "and the ability for the camera to provide a fairly accurate indication
    >> of remaining capacity" .... and I don't think any expert wrote that in the
    >> context that you are using it.
    >>

    >
    > Funny how SMS simply goes silent with presented with an obvious answer and
    > counter to his question and assertion.


    Wow, give me a couple of days or so to answer!


    Lower self-discharge rate
    -------------------------
    "http://www.hardingenergy.com/faq.htm"
    "http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/files/f19.pdf"

    and about a gazillion other similar references. And I specifically
    mention eneloop as an exception. Of course you already knew this.


    Greater energy density by weight and volume
    -------------------------------------------
    See calculations on the web site as well as
    "http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/files/f19.pdf" as well as many
    similar references.
    Of course you already knew this.


    Charge/Discharge Cycles
    -----------------------
    See the chart at
    "http://www.buchmann.ca/Article4-Page1.asp" as well as many other
    similar references. Of course you already knew this.


    Low Temperature Performance
    --------------------------
    "http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/files/f19.pdf"
    and about a gazillion others. Of course you already knew this.


    Accurate Indication of Charge Level
    -----------------------------------
    The battery gauges measure voltage. As you can see on the site in my
    graphs, as well as on
    "http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/files/f19.pdf", the voltage range
    for a NiMH is very narrow, and is almost flat for most of the discharge
    cycle. The voltage range for the Li-Ion pack is wider, and declines
    linearly.

    It is true that the reason for the use of a low-battery indicator versus
    a charge level gauge was an extrapolation I made based on the technical
    characteristics and the design of currently available products.

    It certainly would be possible, as I state on the web site, to design a
    gauge that takes into account the non-linear discharge curve of NiMH,
    the narrow voltage range of NiMH, and the fact that each type of AA
    battery has different start and end voltages and a different voltage
    curve between the two. The D200 may do this via the programming for
    different battery types, or it may just change the voltage start and end
    levels and not try to account for the very small differences in voltage
    during the majority of the cycle.

    The rest of the paragraph doesn't need references, as you can just look
    at what cell phones, MP3 players, laptops, PDA's, etc., are using. The
    prices of Li-Ion packs are available to anyone that knows how to use
    Google (use the "Products" section, and don't buy from eBay or from
    unrated sellers or sellers with poor ratings.

    I certainly hope that you are not becoming another ASAAR, someone who
    knows the facts but just likes to run around demanding references and
    citations for thing that they already know to be true. Maybe I'm the
    chump by spending the time to respond with references to statements that
    you already know to be true.

    Steve
    "http://batterydata.com"
     
    SMS, Aug 30, 2007
    #15
  16. SMS

    SMS Guest

    sw2U wrote:

    > I get the impression Sanyo is better at making batteries than at
    > marketing them.


    It's tough to market by other than numbers. Camera makers sell
    megapixels, battery makers sell mAH, CPU makers sell MHz and were only
    forced into selling CPUs based partially on power consumption and
    thermals by companies like Transmeta.

    Costco tends to have astute purchasing people, as well as a higher
    educated customer base, as well as not stocking 100 different choices
    like Fry's. It's the perfect place for eneloops, plus Costco forces
    their suppliers to provide good bundles.
     
    SMS, Aug 30, 2007
    #16
  17. SMS

    SMS Guest

    Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:

    > I wouldn't be so sure about that. If it was the same technology licensed from
    > Sanyo, I would expect the same capacity ratings after one year, but they are
    > different. Further, if it were the same technology, I would expect that Sanyo
    > would be selling cells with the same capacity [or higher] than those they
    > license too. In short, I do not think they have licensed the technology for
    > use in Rayovac [built by Spectrum in China ... as are Hybrio], but rather a
    > similar technology developed in parallel.


    The technology for lower self-discharge has been around for a long time,
    but it reduces the available volume for the battery components that
    increase the mAHs. NiMH batteries have been marketed based on mAHs
    rather than self-discharge rate (which users probably don't understand
    all that well). Logically you'd expect a mass migration to low
    self-discharge NiMH batteries, but the typical person selecting
    batteries at the store is going mainly by mAH and price, and maybe a
    little on brand recognition.
     
    SMS, Aug 30, 2007
    #17
  18. SMS

    SMS Guest

    Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
    > ASAAR <> wrote:
    >> I'm sure that if you or I had shared
    >> SMS's Li-Ion bias and often parroted his statements, we too might
    >> have been quoted on his website and been lumped in with all of the
    >> other "acknowledged battery experts". Acknowledged by SMS, that is.
    >>

    >
    > I could only hope for so much fame.


    You can't just hope for it, you have to do something to achieve it.

    When you have a web site where you enter only two or three keywords of
    Google then click on "I'm Feeling Lucky" and have your site come up,
    then you've achieved some measure of internet fame (as long as the
    keywords aren't something like "mass murderer").

    Try this on the Google home page:

    "nimh versus li-ion" then click on "I'm Feeling Lucky"
    "bicycle lighting" then click on "I'm Feeling Lucky"
    "bicycle coffee" then click on "I'm Feeling Lucky"

    Of course it often helps when you have someone on Usenet that provides
    you with tons of incorrect material to correct! Never let it be said
    that ASAAR doesn't serve a purpose!

    Steve
     
    SMS, Aug 30, 2007
    #18
  19. SMS <> wrote:
    > Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
    >> ASAAR <> wrote:
    >>> I'm sure that if you or I had shared
    >>> SMS's Li-Ion bias and often parroted his statements, we too might
    >>> have been quoted on his website and been lumped in with all of the
    >>> other "acknowledged battery experts". Acknowledged by SMS, that is.
    >>>

    >>
    >> I could only hope for so much fame.

    >
    > You can't just hope for it, you have to do something to achieve it.
    >


    Of course, you purposely dismissed my sarcasm.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse

    We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
    machinations of the wicked.
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Aug 30, 2007
    #19
  20. SMS <> wrote:
    >


    Note that I snipped the topics that I wasn't questioning you on in the first
    place.

    > Charge/Discharge Cycles
    > -----------------------
    > See the chart at
    > "http://www.buchmann.ca/Article4-Page1.asp" as well as many other
    > similar references. Of course you already knew this.
    >


    This article does not really contrast charge/discharge cycles between LiIon
    (or polymer) and NiMH. Further, it is VERY clear that LiIon batteries have a
    short useful life [when healthy] of 1 year until decline and often complete
    failure in two to three years. Contrast that to NiMH batteries which last
    significantly longer and if used similarily you will get more real charge
    cycles from NiMH than you will from LiIon unless you approach commmericial
    usage levels.

    > Accurate Indication of Charge Level
    > -----------------------------------
    > The battery gauges measure voltage. As you can see on the site in my
    > graphs, as well as on
    > "http://www.national.com/appinfo/power/files/f19.pdf", the voltage range
    > for a NiMH is very narrow, and is almost flat for most of the discharge
    > cycle. The voltage range for the Li-Ion pack is wider, and declines
    > linearly.
    >


    There are several devices available now that DO give accurate capacity
    indications of NiMH batteries. Your old PDF does nothing but illustrate the
    flat discharge curve [which is a good thing as quoted in the article]. It has
    been illustrated in this forum several times that a healthy battery is very
    easy to show reliable capacity [without load based testing]. My Daughter's
    very cheap Kodak Digital is smart enough to know it has NiMH batteries in it
    [in fact, it was probably designed for them as it would be hard to supply
    enough power with alkalines for any real timeframe]. It does an EXCELLENT job
    at indicating remaining capacity. Testing it has shown a very close match to
    my load based battery tester mentioned in another thread.

    > The rest of the paragraph doesn't need references, as you can just look
    > at what cell phones, MP3 players, laptops, PDA's, etc., are using. The
    > prices of Li-Ion packs are available to anyone that knows how to use
    > Google (use the "Products" section, and don't buy from eBay or from
    > unrated sellers or sellers with poor ratings.


    We know the reason they use LiIon batteries for these things. They are light.
    The drawback is that to fit in small packages, they are proprietary and they
    fail over time, no matter the usage. Further, kids are often completely
    draining thier "iPod" batteries, which is HORRIBLE for LiIon batteries. In
    short, you pay a LOT more for batteries over the life a typical device like an
    MP3 player because of typical usage and short life of LiIon. Same goes for
    cellphones [and kids]. My daughter's battery for her Motorola 325 lasted only
    about 9 months before I had to replace it because it wouldn't last a day.

    >
    > I certainly hope that you are not becoming another ASAAR, someone who
    > knows the facts but just likes to run around demanding references and
    > citations for thing that they already know to be true. Maybe I'm the
    > chump by spending the time to respond with references to statements that
    > you already know to be true.
    >


    ASAAR is correct that you display a very big bias towards NiMH batteries as if
    their is something wrong with them. Rather, you seem to indicate that LiIon
    is prefferrable as a generalized statement, which is simply not true. You
    can't make such generalized statements. You often throw up pros/cons for NiMH
    -vs- LiIon that has outdated information or is simply incorrect [in practical
    use]. In particular, you have made claims that, and I paraphrase, "LiIon is
    better because changing the AA batteries on a camera will cause the door to
    fail rather than charge the batteries in camera". THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM OR
    BENEFIT OF EITHER TECHNOLOGY, but you used it anyway. Older cellphones that
    used NiMH [proprietary] batteries are a prime example.

    In short, quit making conclusions, as they are biased. Present accurate facts
    [and complete] and you will be fine.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse

    We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
    machinations of the wicked.
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Aug 30, 2007
    #20
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