ripped off by itunes HELP!

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by Muze Gruppes, Aug 31, 2007.

  1. Muze Gruppes

    Muze Gruppes Guest

    I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead
    I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only
    it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from apple...
    Muze Gruppes, Aug 31, 2007
    #1
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  2. Muze Gruppes

    Guest

    Muze Gruppes <> wrote:

    >I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    >signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead
    >I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only
    >it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    >Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from apple...


    FairPlay DRM http://tinyurl.com/229pcm
    --
    200,000 Elliptical Galaxies Point the Same Way
    http://science.slashdot.org/science/07/08/30/1516224.shtml
    , Aug 31, 2007
    #2
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  3. Muze Gruppes

    Guest

    On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:09:11 -0400, Muze Gruppes
    <> wrote:

    >I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    >signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead
    >I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only
    >it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    >Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from apple...


    Get some software that will record the output of your soundcard to an
    MP3 like....

    http://www.nowsmart.com/arwizard/

    You'll end up with an MP3 (256kbps) minus DRM which you'll be able to
    play on *any* sofware music player.
    , Aug 31, 2007
    #3
  4. Muze Gruppes

    Meat Plow Guest

    On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:09:11 -0400, Muze Gruppes wrote:

    > I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    > signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead
    > I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only
    > it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    > Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from apple...


    Hahahahahah welcome to buying something that can only be played on an ipod.
    There are however apps that can convert the protected file to an m4a or
    mp3, just google it.
    Meat Plow, Aug 31, 2007
    #4
  5. Muze Gruppes

    thanatoid Guest

    Muze Gruppes <> wrote in
    news:46d75c24$0$31902$:

    > I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2
    > tracks. In the signup process they said the music was
    > 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead I got 2 .M4P files that
    > foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only it seems) Is
    > there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    > Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from
    > apple...


    You're a regular Usenet user and you PAID to join iTunes? WHAT
    is your problem? Need a clue or something?

    Use the Usenet while we still have it, dude.

    As for mp4, there are plugins for the countless audio converters
    that will convert this sort of new format to anything you want.
    I don't know about the DRM part because I don't use Vista and I
    like the Usenet, so can't help you there.

    --
    "This is not nuclear. This is just a test."
    - illyria
    thanatoid, Aug 31, 2007
    #5
  6. Muze Gruppes

    Mitch Guest

    In article <>, Meat Plow
    <> wrote:

    > On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:09:11 -0400, Muze Gruppes wrote:
    >
    > > I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    > > signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead
    > > I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only
    > > it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    > > Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from apple...

    >
    > Hahahahahah welcome to buying something that can only be played on an ipod.

    Not true, not correct in even the smallest way.

    > There are however apps that can convert the protected file to an m4a or
    > mp3, just google it.

    Yes; and iTunes makes it VERY easy.
    Mitch, Aug 31, 2007
    #6
  7. Muze Gruppes

    Mitch Guest

    In article <46d75c24$0$31902$>, Muze Gruppes
    <> wrote:

    > I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    > signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead
    > I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only
    > it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    > Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from apple...


    Well, first, you probably got EXACTLY what you paid for, so don't get
    so excited.

    Now, if you want to change the format of the file, do this:
    Go to preferences>Advanced>Import
    choose the format and data rate you want to output to
    Select the tracks
    Choose "Convert Selection" command

    Now, you have the file in the format you want, even without DRM.

    Even if it has DRM, you can burn it as an audio CD to listen somewhere
    else, if you want.


    You see, the problem wasn't that you got ripped off -- it's that the
    first thing you wanted to do with the purchase was avoid using it where
    it was meant to be used -- in iTunes!
    If you had done that, the world was open with possibility.
    Mitch, Aug 31, 2007
    #7
  8. Muze Gruppes

    Smirnoff Guest

    "Mitch" <> wrote in message
    news:300820071914267080%...
    > In article <46d75c24$0$31902$>, Muze Gruppes
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    >> signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks.
    >> Instead
    >> I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can
    >> (only
    >> it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or
    >> .mp3
    >> Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from apple...

    >
    > Well, first, you probably got EXACTLY what you paid for, so don't get
    > so excited.
    >
    > Now, if you want to change the format of the file, do this:
    > Go to preferences>Advanced>Import
    > choose the format and data rate you want to output to
    > Select the tracks
    > Choose "Convert Selection" command
    >
    > Now, you have the file in the format you want, even without DRM.
    >
    > Even if it has DRM, you can burn it as an audio CD to listen somewhere
    > else, if you want.
    >
    >
    > You see, the problem wasn't that you got ripped off -- it's that the
    > first thing you wanted to do with the purchase was avoid using it
    > where
    > it was meant to be used -- in iTunes!
    > If you had done that, the world was open with possibility.


    I'm not the OP but found your answer very informative, thanks for that.
    I notice that you can use the custom settings in Importing to select
    256kbps. There are also other options to choose (VBR, quality, normal or
    joint stereo etc). What are the best/realistic settings for these
    options?
    Also, I notice that you refer to DRM (Digital Rights Management, if I
    recall correctly), which I believe restricts your ability to copy/play
    files in some way. I cannot see an option to remove this, is there one?
    Smirnoff, Aug 31, 2007
    #8
  9. Muze Gruppes

    Muze Gruppes Guest

    wrote:
    > Muze Gruppes <> wrote:
    >
    >> I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    >> signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead
    >> I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only
    >> it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    >> Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from apple...

    >
    > FairPlay DRM http://tinyurl.com/229pcm


    Apple said in a big announcement that itunes would no longer be DRM

    I read the statement when signing up and I checked the box that said
    basically that I wan't non-DRM tracks (yes there was actually a box to
    check) and INSTEAD I got a non .AAC track. And to the guy who claimed I
    was stupid and I've been on USENET for a while and should know better, I
    tried to find these 2 tracks on SOULSEEK but couldn't find in anywhere
    so Itunes was the last place to find them and I REALLY wanted the tracks
    so that's where I looked.
    Muze Gruppes, Aug 31, 2007
    #9
  10. Muze Gruppes

    Muze Gruppes Guest

    thanatoid wrote:
    > Muze Gruppes <> wrote in
    > news:46d75c24$0$31902$:
    >
    >> I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2
    >> tracks. In the signup process they said the music was
    >> 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead I got 2 .M4P files that
    >> foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only it seems) Is
    >> there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    >> Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from
    >> apple...

    >
    > You're a regular Usenet user and you PAID to join iTunes? WHAT
    > is your problem? Need a clue or something?
    >
    > Use the Usenet while we still have it, dude.
    >
    > As for mp4, there are plugins for the countless audio converters
    > that will convert this sort of new format to anything you want.
    > I don't know about the DRM part because I don't use Vista and I
    > like the Usenet, so can't help you there.
    >

    Uh, normally I use soulseek or even emusic.com (cheap and non-DRM)
    APPLE said that they were going non-DRM and I could not find these 2
    tracks on Soulseek or emusic.com so itunes it turned out was the last
    source to acquiring these 2 songs. And LIMEWIRE sucks monkey balls so
    don't even get me started there.

    So no I don't need a clue. Apparently you did so I gave you some.
    Muze Gruppes, Aug 31, 2007
    #10
  11. Muze Gruppes

    Muze Gruppes Guest

    Muze Gruppes wrote:
    > wrote:
    >> Muze Gruppes <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    >>> signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks.
    >>> Instead I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime
    >>> can (only it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to
    >>> .aac or .mp3 Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from
    >>> apple...

    >>
    >> FairPlay DRM http://tinyurl.com/229pcm

    >
    > Apple said in a big announcement that itunes would no longer be DRM
    >
    > I read the statement when signing up and I checked the box that said
    > basically that I wan't non-DRM tracks (yes there was actually a box to
    > check) and INSTEAD I got a non .AAC track. And to the guy who claimed I
    > was stupid and I've been on USENET for a while and should know better, I
    > tried to find these 2 tracks on SOULSEEK but couldn't find in anywhere
    > so Itunes was the last place to find them and I REALLY wanted the tracks
    > so that's where I looked.

    oops

    apparently this applies only to tracks from EMI records?? Ugh...
    Muze Gruppes, Aug 31, 2007
    #11
  12. Muze Gruppes

    meerkat Guest

    "Muze Gruppes" <> wrote in message
    news:46d82a63$0$28831$...
    > Muze Gruppes wrote:
    >> wrote:
    >>> Muze Gruppes <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    >>>> signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead
    >>>> I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only
    >>>> it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    >>>> Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from apple...
    >>>
    >>> FairPlay DRM http://tinyurl.com/229pcm

    >>
    >> Apple said in a big announcement that itunes would no longer be DRM
    >>
    >> I read the statement when signing up and I checked the box that said
    >> basically that I wan't non-DRM tracks (yes there was actually a box to
    >> check) and INSTEAD I got a non .AAC track. And to the guy who claimed I
    >> was stupid and I've been on USENET for a while and should know better, I
    >> tried to find these 2 tracks on SOULSEEK but couldn't find in anywhere so
    >> Itunes was the last place to find them and I REALLY wanted the tracks so
    >> that's where I looked.

    > oops
    >
    > apparently this applies only to tracks from EMI records?? Ugh...
    >

    Remember. Must read the Instructions before continuing.
    (PS. we`re all guilty of not doing that).

    bw..
    meerkat, Aug 31, 2007
    #12
  13. Muze Gruppes

    Muze Gruppes Guest

    thanatoid wrote:
    > Muze Gruppes <> wrote in
    > news:46d75c24$0$31902$:
    >
    >> I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2
    >> tracks. In the signup process they said the music was
    >> 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead I got 2 .M4P files that
    >> foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only it seems) Is
    >> there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    >> Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from
    >> apple...

    >
    > You're a regular Usenet user and you PAID to join iTunes? WHAT
    > is your problem? Need a clue or something?
    >
    > Use the Usenet while we still have it, dude.
    >
    > As for mp4, there are plugins for the countless audio converters
    > that will convert this sort of new format to anything you want.
    > I don't know about the DRM part because I don't use Vista and I
    > like the Usenet, so can't help you there.
    >


    ok fine, so I looked into mp3 binaries and got lost in this:
    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/music/mp3/newsgroups-faq/

    is there any other url you know of with a more user FRIENDLY way to
    convert all those lovely letters and numbers into an mp3?

    Thanks :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
    Muze Gruppes, Aug 31, 2007
    #13
  14. Muze Gruppes

    who'sthat Guest

    On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:28:12 -0400, Muze Gruppes
    <> wrote:

    >thanatoid wrote:
    >> Muze Gruppes <> wrote in
    >> news:46d75c24$0$31902$:
    >>
    >>> I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2
    >>> tracks. In the signup process they said the music was
    >>> 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead I got 2 .M4P files that
    >>> foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only it seems) Is
    >>> there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    >>> Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from
    >>> apple...

    >>
    >> You're a regular Usenet user and you PAID to join iTunes? WHAT
    >> is your problem? Need a clue or something?
    >>
    >> Use the Usenet while we still have it, dude.
    >>
    >> As for mp4, there are plugins for the countless audio converters
    >> that will convert this sort of new format to anything you want.
    >> I don't know about the DRM part because I don't use Vista and I
    >> like the Usenet, so can't help you there.
    >>

    >Uh, normally I use soulseek or even emusic.com (cheap and non-DRM)
    >APPLE said that they were going non-DRM and I could not find these 2
    >tracks on Soulseek or emusic.com so itunes it turned out was the last
    >source to acquiring these 2 songs. And LIMEWIRE sucks monkey balls so
    >don't even get me started there.
    >
    >So no I don't need a clue. Apparently you did so I gave you some.


    What songs?
    who'sthat, Aug 31, 2007
    #14
  15. Muze Gruppes

    Spuds Guest

    On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:09:11 -0400, Muze Gruppes <>
    wrote:

    >I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    >signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead
    >I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only
    >it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    >Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from apple...


    http://hymn-project.org/
    Spuds, Aug 31, 2007
    #15
  16. Muze Gruppes

    Muze Gruppes Guest

    who'sthat wrote:
    > On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:28:12 -0400, Muze Gruppes
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> thanatoid wrote:
    >>> Muze Gruppes <> wrote in
    >>> news:46d75c24$0$31902$:
    >>>
    >>>> I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2
    >>>> tracks. In the signup process they said the music was
    >>>> 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead I got 2 .M4P files that
    >>>> foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only it seems) Is
    >>>> there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    >>>> Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from
    >>>> apple...
    >>> You're a regular Usenet user and you PAID to join iTunes? WHAT
    >>> is your problem? Need a clue or something?
    >>>
    >>> Use the Usenet while we still have it, dude.
    >>>
    >>> As for mp4, there are plugins for the countless audio converters
    >>> that will convert this sort of new format to anything you want.
    >>> I don't know about the DRM part because I don't use Vista and I
    >>> like the Usenet, so can't help you there.
    >>>

    >> Uh, normally I use soulseek or even emusic.com (cheap and non-DRM)
    >> APPLE said that they were going non-DRM and I could not find these 2
    >> tracks on Soulseek or emusic.com so itunes it turned out was the last
    >> source to acquiring these 2 songs. And LIMEWIRE sucks monkey balls so
    >> don't even get me started there.
    >>
    >> So no I don't need a clue. Apparently you did so I gave you some.

    >
    > What songs?


    2 tracks by the group 'Mortal Loom' ("Sex, Romance & Glamour" and "Fade
    to Black") that are collaborations with Chris Carter and Cosey Fanni
    Tutti (Of Carter Tutti, Chris & Cosey, and Throbbing Gristle fame)
    Muze Gruppes, Aug 31, 2007
    #16
  17. Muze Gruppes

    Muze Gruppes Guest

    Spuds wrote:
    > On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:09:11 -0400, Muze Gruppes <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    >> signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead
    >> I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only
    >> it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    >> Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from apple...

    >
    > http://hymn-project.org/


    How the HELL do you get *that* set up?? I mean really... you need extra
    software to use it, and that extra software is like hunting for Noah's Ark
    Muze Gruppes, Sep 1, 2007
    #17
  18. Muze Gruppes

    Spuds Guest

    On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:23:27 -0400, Muze Gruppes <>
    wrote:

    >Spuds wrote:
    >> On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:09:11 -0400, Muze Gruppes <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2 tracks. In the
    >>> signup process they said the music was 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead
    >>> I got 2 .M4P files that foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only
    >>> it seems) Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or .mp3
    >>> Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music from apple...

    >>
    >> http://hymn-project.org/

    >
    >How the HELL do you get *that* set up?? I mean really... you need extra
    >software to use it, and that extra software is like hunting for Noah's Ark


    ??
    I don't have any iTunes to test it on, but it looks pretty simple to me. One
    screen with few options.

    You didn't download the source code by mistake, did you? It's first on the
    download list.
    Spuds, Sep 1, 2007
    #18
  19. Muze Gruppes

    thanatoid Guest

    Muze Gruppes <> wrote in
    news:46d82572$0$11002$:

    > thanatoid wrote:
    >> Muze Gruppes <> wrote in
    >> news:46d75c24$0$31902$:
    >>
    >>> I signed up for the itunes service today and bought 2
    >>> tracks. In the signup process they said the music was
    >>> 256kbps VBR .AAC tracks. Instead I got 2 .M4P files that
    >>> foobar2000 cannot play but Quicktime can (only it seems)
    >>> Is there a way/progranm to change these files to .aac or
    >>> .mp3 Hell even .wma! That's the last time I but music
    >>> from apple...

    >>
    >> You're a regular Usenet user and you PAID to join iTunes?
    >> WHAT is your problem? Need a clue or something?
    >>
    >> Use the Usenet while we still have it, dude.
    >>
    >> As for mp4, there are plugins for the countless audio
    >> converters that will convert this sort of new format to
    >> anything you want. I don't know about the DRM part because
    >> I don't use Vista and I like the Usenet, so can't help you
    >> there.
    >>

    > Uh, normally I use soulseek or even emusic.com (cheap and
    > non-DRM) APPLE said that they were going non-DRM and I
    > could not find these 2 tracks on Soulseek or emusic.com so
    > itunes it turned out was the last source to acquiring these
    > 2 songs. And LIMEWIRE sucks monkey balls so don't even get
    > me started there.
    >
    > So no I don't need a clue. Apparently you did so I gave you
    > some.


    (Laughter break.)

    Maybe you should check on the difference between internet and
    Usenet. You might even find out what www stands for!

    And yes, SOULseek (not that I will bother ever visiting)
    definitely sounds like the place for some CTI music... SIGH.

    Here's some clues, Oh Ignorant One (wrote it all out complete
    but then decided it was time to get your brain some
    exercise...):

    binaries.sounds gothic-industrial binsearch REQ: vinden

    SOME of this is totally basic but at least one is HIGHER
    KNOWLEDGE so be careful. I am not responsible.

    Feel free to thank me anytime.

    As for hymn, why don't you just hire someone to do *everything*
    for you, so you won't have to bother even reading a help file?
    Awwww, life is SOOO hard, I know.

    --
    "This is not nuclear. This is just a test."
    - illyria
    thanatoid, Sep 1, 2007
    #19
  20. Muze Gruppes

    Mitch Guest

    In article <>, Smirnoff
    <> wrote:

    > I'm not the OP but found your answer very informative, thanks for that.
    > I notice that you can use the custom settings in Importing to select
    > 256kbps. There are also other options to choose (VBR, quality, normal or
    > joint stereo etc). What are the best/realistic settings for these
    > options?

    That's quite subjective, but my suggestion would be to consider where
    you are going to play it. If you're talking about a portable device,
    external noise is the bigger problem, and smaller file size is a
    benefit. If you play largely at home, as I usually do, the opposites
    are true.
    I usually use AAC or MP3 at 256, but I also make duplicates for stuff
    that I will use on a portable (like audiobooks) I encode with MP3 at
    just 64 bits.

    The "joint stereo' function is supposed to take advantage of identical
    portions of two stereo tracks to improve how the differences are
    encoded. It is supposed to be more effective for lower bit rates. I
    have never checked what kinds of devices know how to deal with it, so I
    largely ignore it and use Normal Stereo (one channel for L, one for R).

    > Also, I notice that you refer to DRM (Digital Rights Management, if I
    > recall correctly), which I believe restricts your ability to copy/play
    > files in some way. I cannot see an option to remove this, is there one?


    DRM is about protecting the publisher's property, yes. It is supposed
    to discourage uploading files en masse or even make it impossible for a
    recipient to use the files. In practice, it's a flawed system, but the
    most urgent complaints seem to be from people who insist they have a
    right to copy and distribute anything they wish to anyone.

    As far as I'm concerned, Apple's FairPlay system is very fair. It
    applies only to tracks you buy from iTunes Store.
    If you buy a track, you can play it on up to five devices (iPods or
    computers) that you authorize.
    If you buy a whole album, you can burn that to CD up to 7 times.
    If you burn to a regular audio CD, or convert to another format, you
    have removed any DRM present.
    Note that the above concessions were argued specifically between Jobs
    and the labels -- they are not at Apple's discretion alone, and the
    labels have made noise both ways since that time.
    (DRM is not supposed to do anything to affect the sound quality, but
    recent developments suggest that is the next major tactic from some
    labels.)

    Apple has recently introduced an option sell tracks from some labels
    with no DRM at all, and higher quality, for a higher price. I've read
    several articles praising this, and one that (in a haphazard
    comparison) said he didn't hear any difference.

    In any case, every buyer always has all the same options as ever -- to
    buy music on discs. But since some labels have been using DRM there,
    the issue of how you are allowed to use what you pay for is still worth
    being fought. (As far as I'm concerned, buying it on CD shouldn't mean
    you can't make copies for another kind of device.)
    Mitch, Sep 1, 2007
    #20
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    5
    Views:
    478
  2. sensible

    Ripped Off?

    sensible, Nov 5, 2004, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    18
    Views:
    659
  3. ripped off

    , May 16, 2005, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    8
    Views:
    439
  4. ripped off

    , May 16, 2005, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    417
    Frank ess
    May 16, 2005
  5. CSE
    Replies:
    19
    Views:
    522
    ~misfit~
    Apr 11, 2005
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