Researcher fears digital photos will be lost to future generations

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by XP, Sep 27, 2005.

  1. XP

    XP Guest

    XP, Sep 27, 2005
    #1
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  2. XP

    Rob J Guest

    Rob J, Sep 27, 2005
    #2
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  3. XP

    thing2 Guest

    Rob J wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > says...
    >
    >>Yes this is a Big problem
    >>
    >>
    >>http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12447

    >
    >
    > Hype and FUD.


    Actually no.

    There is quite a lot of research being done on the deteioration of cd
    and cd-r media, some cds can become un-readable in as little as 2
    years...some 5.

    Where histroically "real" pictures and painting can still be seen at
    100+ years we may find 20 years from now a lot of information is lost as
    the media proves no where as resiliant as advertised.

    Then there is tape backup media, some backups from the late 80s can
    either no longer be read, or drive units to recover the info are now
    rare as they have been thrown out or failed.

    2 years ago I got asked to recover some geo data off a stack of tapes as
    I happened to have an old 20Mb Sun box with a type Traven unit at home
    in working order, no one else had a working unit in AP....

    Though actually I declined as it was 2 weeks work (hundreds of tapes)
    and no one wanted to pay for my time....or buy the unit off me.

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing2, Sep 28, 2005
    #3
  4. XP

    Chris Hope Guest

    thing2 wrote:

    > Rob J wrote:
    >> In article <>,
    >> says...
    >>
    >>>Yes this is a Big problem
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12447

    >>
    >>
    >> Hype and FUD.

    >
    > Actually no.
    >
    > There is quite a lot of research being done on the deteioration of cd
    > and cd-r media, some cds can become un-readable in as little as 2
    > years...some 5.
    >
    > Where histroically "real" pictures and painting can still be seen at
    > 100+ years we may find 20 years from now a lot of information is lost
    > as the media proves no where as resiliant as advertised.
    >
    > Then there is tape backup media, some backups from the late 80s can
    > either no longer be read, or drive units to recover the info are now
    > rare as they have been thrown out or failed.
    >
    > 2 years ago I got asked to recover some geo data off a stack of tapes
    > as I happened to have an old 20Mb Sun box with a type Traven unit at
    > home in working order, no one else had a working unit in AP....
    >
    > Though actually I declined as it was 2 weeks work (hundreds of tapes)
    > and no one wanted to pay for my time....or buy the unit off me.


    I suspect we'll start to see the rise of online backup systems making it
    easy for people to save their piccies offsite with a simple to use
    scheduled application. Of course they need to be able to trust the
    people storing their images...

    --
    Chris Hope | www.electrictoolbox.com | www.linuxcdmall.co.nz
     
    Chris Hope, Sep 28, 2005
    #4
  5. Chris Hope wrote:
    >>>>Yes this is a Big problem
    >>>>http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12447


    >>>Hype and FUD.


    >>Actually no.
    >>There is quite a lot of research being done on the deteioration of cd
    >>and cd-r media, some cds can become un-readable in as little as 2
    >>years...some 5.


    > I suspect we'll start to see the rise of online backup systems making it
    > easy for people to save their piccies offsite with a simple to use
    > scheduled application.



    > Of course they need to be able to trust the
    > people storing their images...


    heh... might have to start a specialised one for adult images... ;)

    --
    http://dave.net.nz <- My personal site.
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Sep 28, 2005
    #5
  6. XP" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Yes this is a Big problem
    >
    >
    > http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12447
    >
    >
    >


    Not for me - I mirror my important stuff (including pics ) across 2Hdd's ,
    and every so often dump the new ones out to dvd. My digital photos consume
    close to 16 gig now - but, with each photo (in raw) taking 5mb it does not
    take long.

    but, I would never use DVD discs solely - I've had too many dvd disc
    failures to trust them.
     
    news.xtra.co.nz, Sep 28, 2005
    #6
  7. XP

    Chris Hope Guest

    news.xtra.co.nz wrote:

    > XP" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Yes this is a Big problem
    >>
    >>
    >> http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12447

    >
    > Not for me - I mirror my important stuff (including pics ) across
    > 2Hdd's ,
    > and every so often dump the new ones out to dvd. My digital photos
    > consume close to 16 gig now - but, with each photo (in raw) taking 5mb
    > it does not take long.
    >
    > but, I would never use DVD discs solely - I've had too many dvd disc
    > failures to trust them.


    So what happens if the house burns down and the hard drives and dvds are
    unrecoverable?

    --
    Chris Hope | www.electrictoolbox.com | www.linuxcdmall.co.nz
     
    Chris Hope, Sep 28, 2005
    #7
  8. XP

    Harry Guest

    XP wrote:

    > Yes this is a Big problem
    >
    >
    > http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12447


    Not really.
    With everyone taking GB worth of photos the value
    of photos is plummetting towards zero.

    If you haven't taken a photo of something, or have lost one,
    then there is an excellent chance that somebody else has a
    replacement for you. You just need to find the right
    government department ;-)!
     
    Harry, Sep 28, 2005
    #8
  9. XP

    Richard Guest

    Chris Hope wrote:

    > So what happens if the house burns down and the hard drives and dvds are
    > unrecoverable?


    Same thing that happens if the house burns down and the negatives and prints are
    burnt. They are lost.

    At least with digital you can have a full quality off site backup in some cases
    without even leaving the house (Authough at 128k it will take a hell of a long time)
     
    Richard, Sep 28, 2005
    #9
  10. XP

    Chris Hope Guest

    Richard wrote:

    > Chris Hope wrote:
    >
    >> So what happens if the house burns down and the hard drives and dvds
    >> are unrecoverable?

    >
    > Same thing that happens if the house burns down and the negatives and
    > prints are burnt. They are lost.


    I know that.

    > At least with digital you can have a full quality off site backup in
    > some cases without even leaving the house (Authough at 128k it will
    > take a hell of a long time)


    Agreed. But the previous poster only mentioned mirroring disks and
    backing up to DVD - no offsite backup. I personally backup all my stuff
    overnight to one of my servers using rsync.

    --
    Chris Hope | www.electrictoolbox.com | www.linuxcdmall.co.nz
     
    Chris Hope, Sep 28, 2005
    #10
  11. Richard wrote:
    >> So what happens if the house burns down and the hard drives and dvds are
    >> unrecoverable?


    > Same thing that happens if the house burns down and the negatives and
    > prints are burnt. They are lost.


    > At least with digital you can have a full quality off site backup in
    > some cases without even leaving the house (Authough at 128k it will take
    > a hell of a long time)


    Route around the problem(slow upload) then... wifi to a friends site...
    errr, house, and they backup to yours... that way unless you both bet
    nailed by something at the same time, you'll still be able to keep it all.

    I've just setup a local(Green Island, Dunedin) backup repositry(actually
    more like a local file repositry) for my neighbourhood... free access to
    all, you just have to ask for access.

    I have told all users(and made sure they understand) that security is
    their problem, ie, if they want it encrypted, or passworded, so I can't
    see it{not that I do}, they have to do it themselves.

    Currently ~40GB stored, backed up to the following.
    a, the primary machine they drop it on.
    b, daily to another machine in the house incase of Hdd/machine failure.
    c, weekly offsite.
    d, monthly offsite, kept for three months.

    I'm just chatting to my bro in law who has a bit better elevation,
    hoping to get some more users.


    I'm pretty sure there are probably some legal issues that I need to work
    out(copyright being a non-small one), so I probably need to contract
    myself out of some of this... might have to right something up when I
    get home.

    --
    http://dave.net.nz <- My personal site.
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Sep 28, 2005
    #11
  12. Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    > I'm pretty sure there are probably some legal issues that I need to work
    > out(copyright being a non-small one), so I probably need to contract
    > myself out of some of this... might have to right something up when I
    > get home.


    potential for "illigal images" would be the other main concern...
    odd how these things never get thought of until after it has been
    established that it is a good idea.

    --
    http://dave.net.nz <- My personal site.
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Sep 28, 2005
    #12
  13. XP

    Richard Guest

    Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    > Dave - Dave.net.nz wrote:
    >
    >> I'm pretty sure there are probably some legal issues that I need to
    >> work out(copyright being a non-small one), so I probably need to
    >> contract myself out of some of this... might have to right something
    >> up when I get home.

    >
    >
    > potential for "illigal images" would be the other main concern...
    > odd how these things never get thought of until after it has been
    > established that it is a good idea.


    I would go as far as requiring everything is encrypted.

    Theres noone near here that I can get satisfactory LOS to, we tried for a link
    to a guy up on the hill but I have to lock the client at 1 meg and even then its
    spotty. The joys of hills :(
     
    Richard, Sep 28, 2005
    #13
  14. XP

    AD. Guest

    On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:38:23 +1200, thing2 wrote:

    > Where histroically "real" pictures and painting can still be seen at 100+
    > years we may find 20 years from now a lot of information is lost as the
    > media proves no where as resiliant as advertised.


    Apparently even real pictures from recent years probably won't last as
    long as older ones - except for people going out of their way to take
    longevity into account (at a cost).

    I read somewhere that newer photos have a lot less silver in them than
    older ones and consequently aren't lasting as long eg a fair chunk of
    snaps from the 70s onwards or so are deteriorating quicker than older
    photos.

    Not being a photographer I wouldn't really know if it is actually a
    problem or not though.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Sep 28, 2005
    #14
  15. XP

    Alan Guest

    "XP" <> wrote in message
    news:
    > Yes this is a Big problem
    >
    >
    > http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12447



    Missing the point in my opinion.

    Based on what I and most of the people I know do, the CD / DVD backups
    are just that - backups.

    All of our photos are kept on our HDDs.

    Sure, we make a weekly or monthly backup of data depending on what and
    where it is, but that will only be accessed if the HDD is lost, and
    then the backup will only be, at most a month or so old.

    Next year (or whenever) we will buy a new PC with a bigger HDD, and
    all the photos will go across to that and so on.

    File formats? Consider all the older file formats that we had way
    back - all that data is now converted to current formats. For a while
    I had a stack load of data in FXR (fax file) format. I just ran a
    converter and they are all currently in TIF format and no noticeable
    loss of quality.

    In 10 years time I may convert all the old TIF and
    JPG files to something different and they will still be stored on my
    HDDs (4 x 3.2 tera-byte drives in RAID-5 configuration perhaps) and
    backed up onto fifth generation DVDs that have individual capacities
    of 256 GB each (probably bigger by the time we get there!)

    Alan.

    --
    The views expressed are my own, and not those of my employer or anyone
    else associated with me.

    My current valid email address is:



    This is valid as is. It is not munged, or altered at all.

    It will be valid for AT LEAST one month from the date of this post.

    If you are trying to contact me after that time, it MAY still be
    valid,
    but may also have been deactivated due to spam. If so, and you want
    to
    contact me by email, try searching for a more recent post by me to
    find
    my current email address.
     
    Alan, Sep 28, 2005
    #15
  16. XP

    XP Guest

    On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:48:22 +1200, Chris Hope <>
    wrote:

    >news.xtra.co.nz wrote:
    >
    >> XP" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> Yes this is a Big problem
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12447

    >>
    >> Not for me - I mirror my important stuff (including pics ) across
    >> 2Hdd's ,
    >> and every so often dump the new ones out to dvd. My digital photos
    >> consume close to 16 gig now - but, with each photo (in raw) taking 5mb
    >> it does not take long.
    >>
    >> but, I would never use DVD discs solely - I've had too many dvd disc
    >> failures to trust them.

    >
    >So what happens if the house burns down and the hard drives and dvds are
    >unrecoverable?




    What a Silly Question, it would be the same for normal Photo's
     
    XP, Sep 28, 2005
    #16
  17. XP

    Jerry Guest

    Chris Hope wrote:
    > news.xtra.co.nz wrote:
    >
    >
    >>XP" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>
    >>>Yes this is a Big problem
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12447

    >>
    >>Not for me - I mirror my important stuff (including pics ) across
    >>2Hdd's ,
    >>and every so often dump the new ones out to dvd. My digital photos
    >>consume close to 16 gig now - but, with each photo (in raw) taking 5mb
    >>it does not take long.
    >>
    >>but, I would never use DVD discs solely - I've had too many dvd disc
    >>failures to trust them.

    >
    >
    > So what happens if the house burns down and the hard drives and dvds are
    > unrecoverable?
    >



    Store them on gmail, a free off site backup
     
    Jerry, Sep 28, 2005
    #17
  18. T'was the Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:57:22 +1200 when I remembered Chris Hope
    <> saying something like this:

    >I suspect we'll start to see the rise of online backup systems making it
    >easy for people to save their piccies offsite with a simple to use
    >scheduled application. Of course they need to be able to trust the
    >people storing their images...


    I use gmail as my online backup. 2.6GB and counting. Of course, I
    don't recommend storing your most confidential things there.
    --
    Cheers,

    Waylon Kenning.
     
    Waylon Kenning, Sep 28, 2005
    #18
  19. XP

    Chris Hope Guest

    XP wrote:

    > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:48:22 +1200, Chris Hope
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>news.xtra.co.nz wrote:
    >>
    >>> XP" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> Yes this is a Big problem
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12447
    >>>
    >>> Not for me - I mirror my important stuff (including pics ) across
    >>> 2Hdd's ,
    >>> and every so often dump the new ones out to dvd. My digital photos
    >>> consume close to 16 gig now - but, with each photo (in raw) taking
    >>> 5mb it does not take long.
    >>>
    >>> but, I would never use DVD discs solely - I've had too many dvd
    >>> disc failures to trust them.

    >>
    >>So what happens if the house burns down and the hard drives and dvds
    >>are unrecoverable?

    >
    > What a Silly Question, it would be the same for normal Photo's


    See my other reply further down the thread. My comment was more about
    the fact he seemed to think that he was safe because the disks were
    mirrored and he had dvd backups. The only truly safe way to have
    backups of digtial photos is to have them offsite. Just like the only
    truly safe way to be able to keep your film photos is to keep the
    negatives offsite.

    --
    Chris Hope | www.electrictoolbox.com | www.linuxcdmall.co.nz
     
    Chris Hope, Sep 28, 2005
    #19
  20. XP

    Chris Hope Guest

    Waylon Kenning wrote:

    > T'was the Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:57:22 +1200 when I remembered Chris Hope
    > <> saying something like this:
    >
    >>I suspect we'll start to see the rise of online backup systems making
    >>it easy for people to save their piccies offsite with a simple to use
    >>scheduled application. Of course they need to be able to trust the
    >>people storing their images...

    >
    > I use gmail as my online backup. 2.6GB and counting. Of course, I
    > don't recommend storing your most confidential things there.


    How much space do they let you have now?

    --
    Chris Hope | www.electrictoolbox.com | www.linuxcdmall.co.nz
     
    Chris Hope, Sep 28, 2005
    #20
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