Really useless ISPs

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by relaxandchillout@gmail.com, Aug 9, 2007.

  1. Guest

    I appreciate that the ISP is only one factor in the end-to-end Voip
    'chain' however I presume it is a fairly important link in the chain
    so my question is, from a voip pov, are there any ISPs to totally
    avoid for SIP?

    Do LLUs have any advantages/disadvantages?

    Also are 'tunable' factors important such as contention ratios,
    interleaving, traffic shaping options etc....

    What isp's would you recommend/avoid?

    Thanks,
    Stefan
    , Aug 9, 2007
    #1
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  2. In article <>,
    <> wrote:
    >I appreciate that the ISP is only one factor in the end-to-end Voip
    >'chain' however I presume it is a fairly important link in the chain
    >so my question is, from a voip pov, are there any ISPs to totally
    >avoid for SIP?
    >
    >Do LLUs have any advantages/disadvantages?
    >
    >Also are 'tunable' factors important such as contention ratios,
    >interleaving, traffic shaping options etc....


    I think (but someone correct me if I'm wrong!) that contention is more
    or less a thing of the past with ADSL-MAX these days with BT setting a
    minimum service level and the ISPs themselves having a bit of more control
    over it (by balanging their subscribers with the fat-pipes the buy from BT)

    In-general you should get the benefit of (the equivalent of) a lower contention
    with business class products (where the upstream is "up to " 833Kbps) than the
    domestic 443Kbps connections.

    Interneave shouldn't make any noticable different to VoIP. Gamers whinge
    about it. With interleave on, you might see a ping time of 10-15ms more
    than in "fast" mode. I've used VoIP connections over both and it's never
    made any difference as far as I could tell.

    >What isp's would you recommend/avoid?


    It's a big grey area and hard to know what to suggest. (Other than
    what you have personal experience of!)

    Personally, I reckon you get what you pay for when it comes to provision
    of an Internet service. The biggy corps have lower prices, but the service
    might not be as "personal" and with offshore call centres, as the smaller
    ones (who may charge more as they don't have the economy of scale)

    I have had good service and quality with Zen and Entanet (via a reseller)

    One thing you can do is go over to http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ and
    spend some time reading their forums, etc. You'll quickly see which ISPs
    generate the most complaints... You'll find that in-general when things
    work, they work well, so no-one complains, (and rarely praises!) but one
    tiny little bit of an issue and you'll see complaints, so you need to be
    a bit selective and filter out what might be issues not relating to the
    ISPs themselves, but maybe elsewhere... (And occasionally you'll get a
    very small number if individuals who'll complain no-matter who they are
    connected to, so you might need to filter those out too)

    Gordon
    Gordon Henderson, Aug 9, 2007
    #2
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  3. Tim Guest

    Gordon Henderson wrote:
    > Interneave shouldn't make any noticable different to VoIP. Gamers whinge
    > about it. With interleave on, you might see a ping time of 10-15ms more
    > than in "fast" mode. I've used VoIP connections over both and it's never
    > made any difference as far as I could tell.



    It doesn't make any difference at all, because the latency introduced by
    interleaving is always constant.

    Tim
    Tim, Aug 9, 2007
    #3
  4. Paul Cupis Guest

    Gordon Henderson wrote:
    > I think (but someone correct me if I'm wrong!) that contention is more
    > or less a thing of the past with ADSL-MAX these days with BT setting a
    > minimum service level and the ISPs themselves having a bit of more control
    > over it (by balanging their subscribers with the fat-pipes the buy from BT)


    Contention is not a thing of past with ADSL - with the current consumer
    pricing it is the only possible model which works.

    What we no longer have is BT publishing "worst case" contention ratios
    for their specific part of the network/service.

    > In-general you should get the benefit of (the equivalent of) a lower contention
    > with business class products (where the upstream is "up to " 833Kbps) than the
    > domestic 443Kbps connections.


    You don't get lower contention with these products - what you should get
    is priority over non-premium products at the exchange level if the
    exchange is congested. Not a common event in any case.
    Paul Cupis, Aug 10, 2007
    #4
  5. Chris Davies Guest

    Gordon Henderson wrote:
    > In-general you should get the benefit of (the equivalent of) a lower
    > contention with business class products [...]


    Paul Cupis <> wrote:
    > You don't get lower contention with these products - what you should get
    > is priority over non-premium products at the exchange level if the
    > exchange is congested


    Has the 50:1 (residential) and 20:1 (business) contention ratio stuff
    disappeared, then?

    Chris
    Chris Davies, Aug 10, 2007
    #5
  6. Paul Cupis Guest

    Chris Davies wrote:
    > Gordon Henderson wrote:
    >> In-general you should get the benefit of (the equivalent of) a lower
    >> contention with business class products [...]

    >
    > Paul Cupis <> wrote:
    >> You don't get lower contention with these products - what you should get
    >> is priority over non-premium products at the exchange level if the
    >> exchange is congested

    >
    > Has the 50:1 (residential) and 20:1 (business) contention ratio stuff
    > disappeared, then?


    Yes, contention ratios were removed from the IPStream product
    description years ago (2004 IIRC).
    Paul Cupis, Aug 10, 2007
    #6
  7. Nick Guest

    Gordon Henderson wrote:
    > In article <>,


    >
    > Personally, I reckon you get what you pay for when it comes to provision
    > of an Internet service. The biggy corps have lower prices, but the service
    > might not be as "personal" and with offshore call centres, as the smaller
    > ones (who may charge more as they don't have the economy of scale)
    >
    > I have had good service and quality with Zen and Entanet (via a reseller)
    >


    Do Zen have good quality support? Their service is good so I've no idea
    what their support is like.
    Nick, Aug 11, 2007
    #7
  8. In article <>, Nick <> wrote:
    >Gordon Henderson wrote:
    >> In article <>,

    >
    >>
    >> Personally, I reckon you get what you pay for when it comes to provision
    >> of an Internet service. The biggy corps have lower prices, but the service
    >> might not be as "personal" and with offshore call centres, as the smaller
    >> ones (who may charge more as they don't have the economy of scale)
    >>
    >> I have had good service and quality with Zen and Entanet (via a reseller)
    >>

    >
    >Do Zen have good quality support? Their service is good so I've no idea
    >what their support is like.


    I'd suggest that they do... But they're slow with email, so if you
    need support, phone them.

    I did get a bit irritated with them recently though - their support is
    only office hours and it seemed to take a little while to get through to
    them (in email) regarding an intermittent line problem I had (potentially
    still have as it's not been resolved, just "gone away")

    They also sell VoIP, but don't provide a VoIP number/SIP address to call
    them on! You need to use an 0845 number, so you end up paying for it
    (and they get 1p a minute for calls to it). I don't think I should pay
    then for support when the fault isn't of my doing.

    I hope this isn't an indication of badness to come though - in the past
    when I had an issue they actually called me to get it resolved! This time,
    even though I detailled in my emails that I'd already done all the "usual"
    diagnostics I could do (different modems, working back to the test socket,
    etc.) they still wanted me to go through their 20-point plan to test my
    internal cabling, etc. so they effectively ignored my emails.

    Hmmm... I've now not painted too good a picture, I guess. But it's
    working, download speeds are exactly what they say on the tin and I've
    rarely (if ever?) noticed any degradation which might be caused by
    contention/overloaded centrals, and VoIP through their network seems to
    work very well indeed.

    Gordon
    Gordon Henderson, Aug 11, 2007
    #8
  9. Iain Guest

    Nick wrote:

    > Do Zen have good quality support? Their service is good so I've no idea
    > what their support is like.


    Yes. Their support is generally very good (I've had one bad experience,
    several good ones). They alos escalate to BT effectively.

    One of our Zen ADSL lines had a fault. Zen went to a lot of trouble to
    lean on BT till it was fixed.
    Iain, Aug 11, 2007
    #9
  10. Tim Guest

    Iain wrote:
    >
    > Yes. Their support is generally very good (I've had one bad experience,
    > several good ones). They alos escalate to BT effectively.


    We installed a Zen line about 6 months ago. BT completely messed up the
    install - they connected us to some LLU operator.

    Zen did a really good job of chasing BT into fixing the problem.

    Tim
    Tim, Aug 13, 2007
    #10
  11. Paul Cupis Guest

    Tim wrote:
    > BT completely messed up the
    > install - they connected us to some LLU operator.


    Really?
    Paul Cupis, Aug 13, 2007
    #11
  12. Tim Guest

    Paul Cupis wrote:
    > Tim wrote:
    >> BT completely messed up the
    >> install - they connected us to some LLU operator.

    >
    > Really?


    Yes. Giveaway was that we ordered a home (or whatever) it is called
    line that should only have been syncing at 400ish K

    Our line was syncing at 800ish K. Also bt_test@startup_domain (or
    whatever it is) wasn't working at all, implying another operator.

    The BT engineer who came pretty much confirmed the story.

    TIm
    Tim, Aug 14, 2007
    #12
  13. News Reader Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I appreciate that the ISP is only one factor in the end-to-end Voip
    > 'chain' however I presume it is a fairly important link in the chain
    > so my question is, from a voip pov, are there any ISPs to totally
    > avoid for SIP?
    >
    > Do LLUs have any advantages/disadvantages?
    >
    > Also are 'tunable' factors important such as contention ratios,
    > interleaving, traffic shaping options etc....
    >
    > What isp's would you recommend/avoid?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Stefan
    >



    Hi,


    On a general point...

    VoIP is not very demanding and quite resilient so it is not hard for it to
    work well / easy to make it work poorly, etc.


    Best wishes,



    News Reader
    News Reader, Aug 18, 2007
    #13
  14. News Reader Guest

    "News Reader" <> wrote in message
    news:WGHxi.10680$...
    >
    > <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>I appreciate that the ISP is only one factor in the end-to-end Voip
    >> 'chain' however I presume it is a fairly important link in the chain
    >> so my question is, from a voip pov, are there any ISPs to totally
    >> avoid for SIP?
    >>
    >> Do LLUs have any advantages/disadvantages?
    >>
    >> Also are 'tunable' factors important such as contention ratios,
    >> interleaving, traffic shaping options etc....
    >>
    >> What isp's would you recommend/avoid?
    >>
    >> Thanks,
    >> Stefan
    >>

    >
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    >
    > On a general point...
    >
    > VoIP is not very demanding and quite resilient so it is not hard for it to
    > work well / easy to make it work poorly, etc.
    >
    >
    > Best wishes,
    >
    >
    >
    > News Reader
    >
    >



    P.s. Nasty traffic controls or blocking would be the real candidates for
    avoiding. Contention or congestion would have to meet some pretty amazing
    levels for it to SERIOUSLY affect VoIP (particularly if you are happy with
    GSM, etc.).
    News Reader, Aug 18, 2007
    #14
    1. Advertising

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