Really simple (???) newbie question about dual booting...

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by blerer@yahoo.com, Dec 6, 2005.

  1. Guest

    So this is the setup:

    One computer, 2 ATA hard drives, one CD/DVD burner, no floppy, WinXP
    Pro installed. Computer is set up (thru the BIOS) to boot first from
    the DVD drive, second from Drive 1.


    What I plan to do:

    Take half of Drive 2 and format it (using Partition Magic) as 50% XP
    and 50% Linux. Then install, say, Fedora Core 4, on the Linux
    partition. So at the end, all of Drive 1 and 50% of Drive 2 are XP;
    50% of Drive 2 is Linux.

    What I don't want to do (for various reasons):

    I don't want to install GRUB in the MBR of Drive 1; I don't want to
    play with boot.ini; I don't want to play with the BIOS boot sequence
    every time I want to switch the OS. In short, the system is "mission
    critical" enough to avoid a risk to its stability by someone like
    me...

    And my question is:

    Is it possible (and, if so, how) to burn a CDR so that, when the system
    boots, it will display something like

    For XP - highlight here and press return/press 1 (or whatever)
    For Fedora - highlight here and press return/press 2 (or whatever)


    or vice versa and etc.

    For extra points, the system should default boot to Selection 1 after x
    seconds of inactivity.

    Just to be clear - I don't need the CDR itself to contain XP and
    Fedora; just to load one or the other.

    And, while on the topic, as an alternative - is it possible to do it
    with Knoppix? That is, load Knoppix and have it load either XP or
    Fedora and then unload itself?

    Obviously, I have looked around before posting this question, but
    couldn't find the answer (at least not one that I understood...).


    Thanks.
    , Dec 6, 2005
    #1
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  2. On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 09:01:09 -0800, blerer wrote:

    > So this is the setup:
    >
    > One computer, 2 ATA hard drives, one CD/DVD burner, no floppy, WinXP
    > Pro installed. Computer is set up (thru the BIOS) to boot first from
    > the DVD drive, second from Drive 1.
    >
    >
    > What I plan to do:
    >
    > Take half of Drive 2 and format it (using Partition Magic) as 50% XP
    > and 50% Linux. Then install, say, Fedora Core 4, on the Linux
    > partition. So at the end, all of Drive 1 and 50% of Drive 2 are XP;
    > 50% of Drive 2 is Linux.
    >
    > What I don't want to do (for various reasons):
    >
    > I don't want to install GRUB in the MBR of Drive 1; I don't want to
    > play with boot.ini; I don't want to play with the BIOS boot sequence
    > every time I want to switch the OS. In short, the system is "mission
    > critical" enough to avoid a risk to its stability by someone like
    > me...
    >
    > And my question is:
    >
    > Is it possible (and, if so, how) to burn a CDR so that, when the system
    > boots, it will display something like
    >
    > For XP - highlight here and press return/press 1 (or whatever)
    > For Fedora - highlight here and press return/press 2 (or whatever)
    >
    >
    > or vice versa and etc.
    >
    > For extra points, the system should default boot to Selection 1 after x
    > seconds of inactivity.
    >
    > Just to be clear - I don't need the CDR itself to contain XP and
    > Fedora; just to load one or the other.
    >
    > And, while on the topic, as an alternative - is it possible to do it
    > with Knoppix? That is, load Knoppix and have it load either XP or
    > Fedora and then unload itself?
    >
    > Obviously, I have looked around before posting this question, but
    > couldn't find the answer (at least not one that I understood...).
    >
    >
    > Thanks.
    >

    Caveat: I am not running Windows XP. (I have some w2k and nt4, though.)

    Build a grub bootable cdrom. Here are some instructions:
    http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/ma...02dROM.html#Making-a-GRUB-bootable-CD_002dROM

    You might be up against a bit of a catch 22: You need to be running linux
    to build the loader disk. You can run linux as soon as you have a loader.
    Perhaps, knoppix or another machine provides a solution. A boot floppy
    (at installation) is also another way in.

    Here are some tips, assuming you can get past that /*catch*/ (it's the
    best there is ;-) )

    Based on what you want, when you install linux and its loader (grub is
    the most flexible), select the option to install grub on the linux
    _partition_.

    Since you won't be touching your primary partition, you'll need the grub
    CD you made to boot linux, (just as you want).

    The grub stanza on the CD for linux will be generic (no kernel specifics,
    yet.)

    /iso/boot/grub/menu.lst

    title GNU/Linux (via grub on partition)
    rootnoverify (hd1,1)
    chainloader +1

    title Windows 2000
    rootnoverify (hd0,0)
    chainloader +1
    makeactive


    (Exact parameters are machine specific, Windows stanza optional.)

    Your distribution will probably setup the /boot/grub/menu.lst which
    sets kernel parameters, etc. That way, you can upgrade your kernel
    without requiring the boot CD to be rebuilt.


    Other notes: You probably want a swap partition. I also use a separate
    partition just for Windows pagefile.sys.

    --
    Yossarian: That's some catch, that catch-22.
    Doc: It's the best there is.
    http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0065528/quotes
    Douglas Mayne, Dec 6, 2005
    #2
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  3. Douglas Mayne wrote:

    >
    > I also use a separate partition just for Windows pagefile.sys.
    >


    Which gives you no advantage whatsoever unless it is on a physically
    separate HDD.

    --
    Registered Linux User no 240308
    Ubuntu 5.10
    gordonDOTburgessparkerATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
    to email me replace the obvious!
    Gordon Burgess-Parker, Dec 6, 2005
    #3
  4. why? Guest

    x-post trimmed to 24hoursupport.helpdesk
    from the long
    Newsgroups:
    comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,24hoursupport.helpdesk,alt.os.linux,alt.linux


    On 6 Dec 2005 09:01:09 -0800, blerer wrote:

    >So this is the setup:
    >
    >One computer, 2 ATA hard drives, one CD/DVD burner, no floppy, WinXP
    >Pro installed. Computer is set up (thru the BIOS) to boot first from
    >the DVD drive, second from Drive 1.
    >
    >
    >What I plan to do:
    >
    >Take half of Drive 2 and format it (using Partition Magic) as 50% XP
    >and 50% Linux. Then install, say, Fedora Core 4, on the Linux
    >partition. So at the end, all of Drive 1 and 50% of Drive 2 are XP;
    >50% of Drive 2 is Linux.


    This is a permanent Linux install or a test / let's see what it's like?

    If a test, don't do it.

    If a let's see , then use one of the bootable CD live distros. This will
    let you try several distros, and how it works with your hardware before
    installing anything.

    >What I don't want to do (for various reasons):
    >
    >I don't want to install GRUB in the MBR of Drive 1; I don't want to


    It used to be one could choose not to install LILO / GRUB. But put LILO
    on a boot floppy (having made a few safety copies).

    It's easy enough to do remove later.

    As I haven't need to do this in a few years I don't know if FC4 still
    has the option. Saying that there are lots of Linux documentation to
    read first.

    >play with boot.ini; I don't want to play with the BIOS boot sequence
    >every time I want to switch the OS. In short, the system is "mission
    >critical" enough to avoid a risk to its stability by someone like
    >me...


    But you want to play with the contents of the disk / repartition ...
    hmmm, odd.

    >And my question is:


    My answer is: If it's mission critical don't do anything to it.

    <snip long story>

    OTOH some distro's boot from USB memory sticks.

    Me
    why?, Dec 6, 2005
    #4
  5. On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:55:22 +0000, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

    > Douglas Mayne wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> I also use a separate partition just for Windows pagefile.sys.
    >>

    >
    > Which gives you no advantage whatsoever unless it is on a physically
    > separate HDD.
    >

    Why all the cross posting?

    Yes. I've heard that, too. I read an article linked from slashdot a
    couple of years ago. There is one advantage of allocating a separate
    partition for pagefile.sys, though. That is, the swap partition can
    setup with the Windows loader (ntldr). IME, the windows loader never
    fails on primary partitions less than 8G, and that is plenty for
    pagefile.sys.

    BTW, all of this is rapidly becoming trivia, as obsolete as the tricks
    that were required to load a 386 DOS extender. The only thing which may
    end up mattering in the long run is if Windows can load in a virtual
    machine.

    --
    Douglas Mayne
    Douglas Mayne, Dec 6, 2005
    #5
  6. Whiskers Guest

    [the original article was cross-posted to more than the three maximum
    beyond which I plonk, so this thread was hidden to me until I saw the
    response from "Why?", so I hope my reconstruction of it doesn't mess
    anything up for anyone]

    On 2005-12-05, wrote:
    > So this is the setup:
    >
    > One computer, 2 ATA hard drives, one CD/DVD burner, no floppy, WinXP
    > Pro installed. Computer is set up (thru the BIOS) to boot first from
    > the DVD drive, second from Drive 1.
    >
    >
    > What I plan to do:
    >
    > Take half of Drive 2 and format it (using Partition Magic) as 50% XP
    > and 50% Linux. Then install, say, Fedora Core 4, on the Linux
    > partition. So at the end, all of Drive 1 and 50% of Drive 2 are XP;
    > 50% of Drive 2 is Linux.


    Better to leave the empty space as empty space; let the Linux installer
    format the space you want it to use. You normally need at least two
    partitions for Linux; one for 'swap' and one for everything else. The
    installation routine for most distros will guide you through this.

    > What I don't want to do (for various reasons):
    >
    > I don't want to install GRUB in the MBR of Drive 1; I don't want to
    > play with boot.ini; I don't want to play with the BIOS boot sequence
    > every time I want to switch the OS. In short, the system is "mission
    > critical" enough to avoid a risk to its stability by someone like
    > me...


    Have you considered installing a 'boot manager' such as GAG
    <http://gag.sourceforge.net/index.html>? [1]

    > And my question is:
    >
    > Is it possible (and, if so, how) to burn a CDR so that, when the system
    > boots, it will display something like
    >
    > For XP - highlight here and press return/press 1 (or whatever)
    > For Fedora - highlight here and press return/press 2 (or whatever)
    >
    >
    > or vice versa and etc.
    >
    > For extra points, the system should default boot to Selection 1 after x
    > seconds of inactivity.
    >
    > Just to be clear - I don't need the CDR itself to contain XP and
    > Fedora; just to load one or the other.


    You want to make a boot floppy, but on a CD-R. Not a bad idea to do that
    for your Windows system too - before you do anything else!

    > And, while on the topic, as an alternative - is it possible to do it
    > with Knoppix? That is, load Knoppix and have it load either XP or
    > Fedora and then unload itself?


    Umm, no.

    > Obviously, I have looked around before posting this question, but
    > couldn't find the answer (at least not one that I understood...).
    >
    >
    > Thanks.


    Back up all your 'stuff' before you make any changes to your system. If
    it is really important to you, get a second-hand computer to 'play' with
    Linux on rather than do anything you aren't comfortable with on your
    one-and-only machine.


    [1] It isn't clear from the product's home page, but GAG can work from a
    CD-R without writing anything to the MBR - although that is where I run it
    from. I haven't used it with Windows; I'm all-Linux :))

    From the install.txt file included in the downloaded zip file:

    ..-----
    | Starting with GAG 4.01, all language versions are distributed on one
    | single disk, with a little installation program. You only have to create
    | the disk (see above the instructions of how to do it), boot your computer
    | from that disk, et voila! The instructions for using it, the FAQ and the
    | license can be read from the installer program.
    |
    | You can put this file (DISK.DSK) as the boot image of a bootable CD-ROM,
    | so you can have your GAG installer on a CD, instead of floppy. There's an
    | ISO image in this package that you can use, if you want, to create that
    | bootable CD-ROM (the file is GAG.ISO).
    '-----

    --
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^
    -- Whiskers
    -- ~~~~~~~~~~
    Whiskers, Dec 6, 2005
    #6
  7. PC Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...

    <snip>


    >" In short, the system is "mission critical" enough to avoid a risk to its
    >stability by someone like me..."


    <snip>

    Ok so I am going to ask you why are you risking the stability of your system
    by 'playing' with it?
    If the system is that 'mission critical' then leave it alone, go buy another
    system and experiment with that.

    I see this reasonably frequently on PC's owned by small business people with
    (in particular) teenage families.
    Because there is only one PC everyone wants to do it 'their' way and
    inevitably the PC ends up crashing with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    The words 'Disaster Recovery Plan' usually bring only 'blank' looks.
    Surprisingly the parents are equally as responsible as the teenagers for the
    disaster.

    None of this suggests what you want to achieve is not possible, its just
    that the 'logical' solution is to use 'Grub' which is designed to do exactly
    what you want. Of course it entails some element of risk, 'any' changes to a
    PC involves an element of risk. Which brings me back to my original
    suggestion 'if it's mission critical leave it alone'

    Hope this gives you some pause to reflect on what you're trying to achieve.

    Cheers
    Paul.
    PC, Dec 6, 2005
    #7
  8. Mark Hobley Guest

    wrote:

    > I don't want to install GRUB in the MBR of Drive 1; I don't want to
    > play with boot.ini; I don't want to play with the BIOS boot sequence
    > every time I want to switch the OS. In short, the system is "mission
    > critical" enough to avoid a risk to its stability by someone like
    > me...
    >


    in theory you can install the linux boot loader on the linux partition, and
    then mark the partition as active (using fdisk) to boot the system, leaving
    your master boot record unchanged. You are then be able to toggle the active
    boot partition using fdisk.

    I have not tested this.

    Has anyone tried this with Windows XP ?

    I wouldn't test this on a "mission critial" system, nor would I recommend
    using partition magic, on such a system.

    You have done a full disk image backup haven't you ?

    Once you start to migrate to Linux, you will be using XP less and less, until it
    becomes defunct.

    You could invest in a second hard drive and a removable drive caddy. (They are
    not expensive these days).

    Take the XP drive out, and put Linux on the new drive.

    Your XP drive will then become a spare drive, once you complete the migration.

    Regards,

    Mark.

    --
    Mark Hobley
    393 Quinton Road West
    QUINTON
    Birmingham
    B32 1QE

    Telephone: (0121) 247 1596
    International: 0044 121 247 1596

    Email: markhobley at hotpop dot donottypethisbit com

    http://markhobley.yi.org/
    Mark Hobley, Dec 7, 2005
    #8
  9. Wilhelm Tell Guest

    On 6 Dec 2005 09:01:09 -0800, wrote:

    >
    >
    >I don't want to install GRUB in the MBR of Drive 1; I don't want to
    >play with boot.ini; I don't want to play with the BIOS boot sequence



    Perhaps you should reconsider your requirements. It is not that
    hazardous to boot using Grub or the boot.ini. I prefer
    to boot from the boot.ini, which allows me to choose between
    several Windows installations and one Linux installation.

    I followed these instructions posted in 2000 by Paul B in
    a Usenet group:

    To add linux to your boot.ini do this from your linux box:
    login as root or type su to become one.

    type this command : dd if=/dev/hda1 of=linux ibs=512 count=1

    This will create boot image for use with NTloader.You'll need to
    substitute /hda1 for your /boot partition ,also you can name your
    "linux"image what you like.When you finished in linux ,go to windows,
    edit your boot.ini and add this line
    C:\linux="Linux"
    save and reboot to test.On a side note you'll need uncheck the "read
    only attribute" on boot.ini or else it will not let your save it.
    Wilhelm Tell, Dec 7, 2005
    #9
  10. Guest

    Ok, Mr. Yossairan/Catch 22 :): here's an interim progress (or lack
    thereof) report. Yesterday night I attempted to defeat the Catch 22: I
    installed Fedora with grub in the Fedora partition (that would be hdb2,
    in my case). Then re-booted with Knoppix 4.02. Then tried to create
    the grub bootable cdr as per the link you provided.

    As was to be expected, the instructions there weren't 100% accurate
    (for example the file stage2_eltorito that you are instructed to copy
    is not in the directory mentioned in the link but in a Fedora directory
    called redhat, etc). When I tried to copy that file to a newly created
    iso directory, I discovered that Knoppix boots up in a read-only mode.
    The only way to defeat that is to launch a root terminal session, but
    that requires a password I didn't have, etc., etc. (as I said,
    Newbie). When I eventually figured out how to bypass all those issues,
    I ran into the ultimate problem of having to use the same CD/DVD drive
    in which the Knoppix DVDR resides for burning the iso image to be used
    for booting... And, wouldn't you know it, Knoppix, for some strange
    reason, refused to allow its own DVDR to be ejected from the drive so I
    could insert a blank CDR. At which point I gave up in disgust and
    called it a night.

    Next time I'll try to do the same thing in another computer that has
    2 drives but no Linux partition, and then copy the stage2_eltorito file
    from the Knoppix directory in which it resides into the ramdisk created
    by Knoppix....

    Stay tuned.
    , Dec 7, 2005
    #10
  11. Guest

    Yes, I do have a full backup....
    This IS a two-drive system, but the removable drive caddy is not a bad
    idea. I'm going to look into that.
    Having said that, by now, almost as a matter of principle, I would
    still like to create the dual booting CDR; just to see if it can be
    done.
    , Dec 7, 2005
    #11
  12. Guest

    To both Paul and Jerry - there was a reason why the term "mission
    critical" was in quotation marks.... I'm not running the New York
    Stock Exchange from home - it's just that my wife and kids need
    access to this computer (and the other two I have) and I can't just
    take unilateral action by trashing the C/hd1 drive. The reason I have
    no problem with formatting the D drive (hd2a and hd2b) is that it IS
    the D drive, there's very little data on it and, worst case, I can
    just reformat the whole thing and start from scratch. I really don't
    want to have to reinstall XP....
    , Dec 7, 2005
    #12
  13. On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:25:38 -0800, blerer wrote:

    > Ok, Mr. Yossairan/Catch 22 :): here's an interim progress (or lack
    > thereof) report. Yesterday night I attempted to defeat the Catch 22: I
    > installed Fedora with grub in the Fedora partition (that would be hdb2,
    > in my case). Then re-booted with Knoppix 4.02. Then tried to create
    > the grub bootable cdr as per the link you provided.
    >
    > As was to be expected, the instructions there weren't 100% accurate
    > (for example the file stage2_eltorito that you are instructed to copy
    > is not in the directory mentioned in the link but in a Fedora directory
    > called redhat, etc).
    >

    <snip>
    >
    >
    > Stay tuned.
    >

    The grub instructions /* were */ accurate for a generic grub install.
    Redhat/Fedora move things around to wherever they want in their
    filesystem. They also have the habit of introducing extra confusion with
    things like grub.conf instead of menu.lst. Also, I hate their use of disc
    "labels" in /etc/fstab. Some things should be left in *nix form.
    Thanks for the nice reminder of why life's easier if you're a /* slacker. */

    For Fedora/Redhat, add an extra last step before burning the CD: duplicate
    grub's configuration file to grub.conf.

    # cd /iso/boot/grub
    # cp menu.lst grub.conf

    --
    Dobbs: Look Yossarian, suppose, I mean,
    just suppose everyone thought the same way you do.
    Yossarian: Then I'd be a damn fool to think any different.
    http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0065528/quotes
    Douglas Mayne, Dec 8, 2005
    #13
  14. On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:43:00 +0100, Wilhelm Tell <> wrote:

    > On 6 Dec 2005 09:01:09 -0800, wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> I don't want to install GRUB in the MBR of Drive 1; I don't want to
    >> play with boot.ini; I don't want to play with the BIOS boot sequence

    >
    >
    > Perhaps you should reconsider your requirements. It is not that
    > hazardous to boot using Grub or the boot.ini. I prefer
    > to boot from the boot.ini, which allows me to choose between
    > several Windows installations and one Linux installation.
    >
    > I followed these instructions posted in 2000 by Paul B in
    > a Usenet group:
    >
    > To add linux to your boot.ini do this from your linux box:
    > login as root or type su to become one.
    >
    > type this command : dd if=/dev/hda1 of=linux ibs=512 count=1
    >
    > This will create boot image for use with NTloader.You'll need to
    > substitute /hda1 for your /boot partition ,also you can name your
    > "linux"image what you like.When you finished in linux ,go to windows,
    > edit your boot.ini and add this line
    > C:\linux="Linux"
    > save and reboot to test.On a side note you'll need uncheck the "read
    > only attribute" on boot.ini or else it will not let your save it.


    It seems to me that a few pieces are missing here.

    First, the boot image file, created with dd, does it presuppose
    that grub or lilo had been installed in the /boot partition?
    (In the case of lilo, the procedure would have to be repeated
    whenever a new kernel was installed, no?)

    Second, it seems like this file has been subsequently copied into
    to C: partition of Windows, no?

    -Enrique
    Enrique Perez-Terron, Dec 9, 2005
    #14
  15. Wilhelm Tell Guest

    On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 02:55:50 +0100, "Enrique Perez-Terron"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >First, the boot image file, created with dd, does it presuppose
    >that grub or lilo had been installed in the /boot partition?
    >(In the case of lilo, the procedure would have to be repeated
    >whenever a new kernel was installed, no?)
    >

    No, you don't have to worry about either grub or lilo. But you must,
    of course, have access to the Linux partition. This can be done with
    a Linux boot floppy or by booting from the Linux installation cd

    >Second, it seems like this file has been subsequently copied into
    >to C: partition of Windows, no?
    >


    Right.
    Wilhelm Tell, Dec 9, 2005
    #15
  16. Guest

    >>Second, it seems like this file has been subsequently copied into
    >>to C: partition of Windows, no?


    >Right.


    And, excusing the ignorant question, how do you do THAT? In theory, you
    could be either in Linux and write the boot image file to the XP
    partition, or first write it to the Linux partition, boot into XP,
    access the Linux partition and then copy it to the C: partition in XP.
    Is either of these steps trivial or do they require some additional
    steps? Or am I missing something else here?

    Bruno
    , Dec 9, 2005
    #16
  17. Guest

    >In theory you can install the linux boot loader on the linux partition, and
    >then mark the partition as active (using fdisk) to boot the system, leaving
    >your master boot record unchanged. You are then be able to toggle the active
    >boot partition using fdisk.


    I'm willing to try this on a non-essential drive; what exactly would be
    required?

    Bruno
    , Dec 9, 2005
    #17
  18. Gremnebulin Guest

    wrote:

    > Is it possible (and, if so, how) to burn a CDR so that, when the system
    > boots, it will display something like
    >
    > For XP - highlight here and press return/press 1 (or whatever)
    > For Fedora - highlight here and press return/press 2 (or whatever)


    This utility will do that (it is genreal-purpose)..

    http://www.sofotex.com/Smart-BootManager-download_L15736.html

    ...form a floppy.
    Gremnebulin, Dec 9, 2005
    #18
  19. Guest

    Gremnebulin wrote:
    > wrote:
    >
    > > Is it possible (and, if so, how) to burn a CDR so that, when the system
    > > boots, it will display something like
    > >
    > > For XP - highlight here and press return/press 1 (or whatever)
    > > For Fedora - highlight here and press return/press 2 (or whatever)

    >
    > This utility will do that (it is genreal-purpose)..
    >
    > http://www.sofotex.com/Smart-BootManager-download_L15736.html
    >
    > ..form a floppy.


    Thanks for the link. This is the type of software I was looking for,
    but in this case there are two problems. First, this particular system
    doesn't have a floppy; of course, one could be installed but it would
    be easier to if Smart Boot Manager could be run from a CD. And from
    whatever info I could gather, it doesn't seem like that's possible.

    Second, SBM seems to be about 5-6 old. Does anyone have any idea how
    it behaves with newer OSs such as XP and FC4?

    Bruno
    , Dec 9, 2005
    #19
  20. Guest

    Gremnebulin wrote:
    > wrote:
    >
    > > Is it possible (and, if so, how) to burn a CDR so that, when the system
    > > boots, it will display something like
    > >
    > > For XP - highlight here and press return/press 1 (or whatever)
    > > For Fedora - highlight here and press return/press 2 (or whatever)

    >
    > This utility will do that (it is genreal-purpose)..
    >
    > http://www.sofotex.com/Smart-BootManager-download_L15736.html
    >
    > ..form a floppy.


    Thanks for the link. This is exactly the type of software I was
    looking for, but in this case there are two problems. First, this
    particular computer doesn't have a floppy; of course, one could be
    installed but it would be easier to if Smart Boot Manager could be run
    from a CD. And from whatever info I could gather, it doesn't seem like
    that's possible.

    Second, SBM seems to be about 5-6 old. Does anyone have any idea how
    it behaves with newer OSs such as XP and FC4?

    Bruno
    , Dec 9, 2005
    #20
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