Re: Windows 7 driver management is fantastic

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Carnations, Sep 8, 2009.

  1. Carnations

    Carnations Guest

    On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 23:23:18 +1200, Bobs wrote:

    > Just installed all the new chipset drivers (network, sm bus, video etc)
    > on my laptop and it didn't even need a restart. Great stuff. Gone are
    > the horrible days of xp where you had to do a couple of restarts.


    That is good news for MS Windows Administrators.

    However, Linux users have never needed to restart their computer merely to get a driver going.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Carnations, Sep 8, 2009
    #1
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  2. Carnations

    AD. Guest

    On Sep 8, 11:32 pm, Carnations <> wrote:
    > On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 23:23:18 +1200, Bobs wrote:
    > > Just installed all the new chipset drivers (network, sm bus, video etc)
    > > on my laptop and it didn't even need a restart. Great stuff. Gone are
    > > the horrible days of xp where you had to do a couple of restarts.

    >
    > That is good news for MS Windows Administrators.
    >
    > However, Linux users have never needed to restart their computer merely to get a driver going.


    Never?

    Not all Linux drivers have always worked as loadable modules. There
    was even a time before loadable modules when all drivers had to
    compiled in.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Sep 8, 2009
    #2
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  3. Carnations

    Enkidu Guest

    Carnations wrote:
    > On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 23:23:18 +1200, Bobs wrote:
    >
    >> Just installed all the new chipset drivers (network, sm bus, video
    >> etc) on my laptop and it didn't even need a restart. Great stuff.
    >> Gone are the horrible days of xp where you had to do a couple of
    >> restarts.

    >
    > That is good news for MS Windows Administrators.
    >
    > However, Linux users have never needed to restart their computer
    > merely to get a driver going.
    >

    Not 'never', Lennier. Just not for ages. You used to have to recompile
    the kernel to include or update a driver, but at some stage modules
    which could link in to the kernel directly were introduced and the rest
    is as you say.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
    the same old personalities show through.
     
    Enkidu, Sep 8, 2009
    #3
  4. Carnations

    Carnations Guest

    On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 08:57:16 +1200, Enkidu wrote:

    > Not 'never', Lennier. Just not for ages. You used to have to recompile
    > the kernel to include or update a driver, but at some stage modules
    > which could link in to the kernel directly were introduced and the rest
    > is as you say.


    Weren't modules introduced in Linux 1.2? That was well over 12 years ago and more like 15 or so
    years ago.

    I've never had to recompile a kernel because I changed a piece of hardware and needed to include a
    different or updated driver in the kernel and I've been using Linux boxen since 2000.

    The only time a reboot is required is so that a new kernel can be loaded into RAM. Presumably even
    that will be sorted out before too long.

    We've seen more than 5 different major iterations of MS windows in that time, and numerous "service
    packs", and Microsoft has only just recently figured out that a reboot is not required in order to install
    software or hardware "drivers".


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Carnations, Sep 8, 2009
    #4
  5. Carnations

    Carnations Guest

    On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 05:08:17 -0700, AD. wrote:

    > Not all Linux drivers have always worked as loadable modules. There was
    > even a time before loadable modules when all drivers had to compiled in.


    That was Linux kernel version 1.0 - way back in the very early-mid '90s. Version 1.2 introduced
    loadable kernel modules and for about the last 15 years reboots have never been required.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Carnations, Sep 8, 2009
    #5
  6. Carnations

    Cima Guest

    On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 08:57:16 +1200, Enkidu <> wrote:

    >Carnations wrote:
    >> On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 23:23:18 +1200, Bobs wrote:
    >>
    >>> Just installed all the new chipset drivers (network, sm bus, video
    >>> etc) on my laptop and it didn't even need a restart. Great stuff.
    >>> Gone are the horrible days of xp where you had to do a couple of
    >>> restarts.

    >>
    >> That is good news for MS Windows Administrators.
    >>
    >> However, Linux users have never needed to restart their computer
    >> merely to get a driver going.
    >>

    >Not 'never', Lennier. Just not for ages. You used to have to recompile
    >the kernel to include or update a driver, but at some stage modules
    >which could link in to the kernel directly were introduced and the rest
    >is as you say.
    >
    >Cheers,
    >
    >Cliff


    Um, when I installed the nVidia driver on Kubuntu it wanted a reboot.
     
    Cima, Sep 8, 2009
    #6
  7. Carnations

    Carnations Guest

    On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 09:36:26 +1200, Cima wrote:

    > Um, when I installed the nVidia driver on Kubuntu it wanted a reboot.


    I understand that is a binary blob that is not a proper kernel module like all GPL'd kernel modules.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Carnations, Sep 8, 2009
    #7
  8. Carnations

    Max Burke Guest

    Carnations wrote:
    > On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 05:08:17 -0700, AD. wrote:
    >
    >> Not all Linux drivers have always worked as loadable modules. There was
    >> even a time before loadable modules when all drivers had to compiled in.

    >
    > That was Linux kernel version 1.0 - way back in the very early-mid '90s. Version 1.2 introduced
    > loadable kernel modules and for about the last 15 years reboots have never been required.


    Another unprovable claim about Linux from a 'Linux advocate'...
    (why do they think they have to make these unprovable claims put Linux
    in a 'good light' I have to ask myself (again))

    Do you want to explain why I had to reboot Ubuntu 9.04 TWICE (with the
    latest Linux kernel) after installing the graphics driver for my NVidia
    FX5200 card?
    And had to reboot after installing the driver for my Epsom Stylus photo
    890?

    Surely my install is not so unique that I'm the only Linux user in the
    whole world (or 'Linux community' if you prefer) that has had to reboot
    after installing drivers?

    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Sep 8, 2009
    #8
  9. Carnations

    Carnations Guest

    On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 10:16:08 +1200, Max Burke wrote:

    > Surely my install is not so unique that I'm the only Linux user in the
    > whole world (or 'Linux community' if you prefer) that has had to reboot
    > after installing drivers?


    You're using Kubuntu. I've never used that distribution and can't offer any comments on whether what
    you're doing is true for Linux as a whole or just for that particular distribution.

    Good that you've chosen KDE as your desktop environment - I think that's the most user-customisable
    desktop.

    Have you tried using SuSE?


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Carnations, Sep 8, 2009
    #9
  10. Carnations

    Max Burke Guest

    Carnations wrote:
    > On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 09:36:26 +1200, Cima wrote:


    >> Um, when I installed the nVidia driver on Kubuntu it wanted a reboot.


    > I understand that is a binary blob that is not a proper kernel module like all GPL'd kernel modules.


    You understand incorrectly. (nothing new there)

    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Sep 8, 2009
    #10
  11. Carnations

    Max Burke Guest

    Carnations wrote:
    > On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 10:16:08 +1200, Max Burke wrote:
    >
    >> Surely my install is not so unique that I'm the only Linux user in the
    >> whole world (or 'Linux community' if you prefer) that has had to reboot
    >> after installing drivers?


    > You're using Kubuntu.


    No I'm NOT.

    I'm using *Ubuntu.*
    Ubuntu is a community developed, Linux-based operating system that is
    perfect for laptops, desktops and servers. It contains all the
    applications you need - a web browser, presentation, document and
    spreadsheet software, instant messaging and much more.
    http://www.ubuntu.com/

    Like most Linux distros, it's a fancy UI/GUI tacked on top of Linux.

    > I've never used that distribution and can't offer any comments on whether what
    > you're doing is true for Linux as a whole or just for that particular distribution.


    It disproves your claim that Linux users never have to reboot when
    installing drivers.

    > Good that you've chosen KDE as your desktop environment - I think that's the most user-customisable
    > desktop.
    > Have you tried using SuSE?


    You've got it wrong again.
    Windows XP is my working OS.

    Ubuntu is something to play with and learn about Linux first hand. After
    using it for several months I know it just doesn't make the grade as a
    replacement for Windows XP for me.

    One of the first things I have learned/had confirmed is that most of the
    claims made about Linux (by Linux 'advocates') when compared to Windows
    are either BS or unprovable.

    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
     
    Max Burke, Sep 8, 2009
    #11
  12. Carnations

    AD. Guest

    On Sep 9, 9:29 am, Carnations <> wrote:
    > On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 08:57:16 +1200, Enkidu wrote:
    > > Not 'never', Lennier. Just not for ages. You used to have to recompile
    > > the kernel to include or update a driver, but at some stage modules
    > > which could link in to the kernel directly were introduced and the rest
    > > is as you say.

    >
    > Weren't modules introduced in Linux 1.2? That was well over 12 years ago and more like 15 or so
    > years ago.


    There's a big difference between have a modular kernel (yes that bit
    arrived in 1.2) and all drivers working properly as modules. It wasn't
    really until 2.2 that nearly everything became modular.

    Just as well Linux users "never" used Linux kernels before 2.2 eh?

    >
    > I've never had to recompile a kernel because I changed a piece of hardware and needed to include a
    > different or updated driver in the kernel and I've been using Linux boxen since 2000.


    Extrapolating your limited experience into a blanket statement that
    applies to everyone again?

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Sep 8, 2009
    #12
  13. Carnations

    Carnations Guest

    On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 10:42:06 +1200, Max Burke wrote:

    >> You're using Kubuntu.

    >
    > No I'm NOT.
    >
    > I'm using *Ubuntu.*


    OK - you're using the Gnome based variant.

    There is also one called Edibuntu.

    Kubuntu looks prettier and the desktop is more user-configurable.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Carnations, Sep 9, 2009
    #13
  14. Carnations

    Carnations Guest

    On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:59:25 -0700, AD. wrote:

    > Just as well Linux users "never" used Linux kernels before 2.2 eh?


    Well, I didn't. The first version of Linux I used was based on the 2.2 kernel.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Carnations, Sep 9, 2009
    #14
  15. Carnations

    Carnations Guest

    On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 10:31:03 +1200, Max Burke wrote:

    >> I understand that is a binary blob that is not a proper kernel module
    >> like all GPL'd kernel modules.

    >
    > You understand incorrectly. (nothing new there)


    Is the source code available for the Nvidia proprietary driver?


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Carnations, Sep 9, 2009
    #15
  16. Carnations

    Sailor Sam Guest

    Carnations wrote:
    > On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 10:31:03 +1200, Max Burke wrote:
    >
    >>> I understand that is a binary blob that is not a proper kernel module
    >>> like all GPL'd kernel modules.

    >> You understand incorrectly. (nothing new there)

    >
    > Is the source code available for the Nvidia proprietary driver?
    >
    >

    In some ways, yes.
    mov ax,bx
     
    Sailor Sam, Sep 9, 2009
    #16
  17. Carnations

    EMB Guest

    Carnations wrote:

    > There is also one called Edibuntu.


    No there's not.
     
    EMB, Sep 9, 2009
    #17
  18. Carnations

    Enkidu Guest

    Carnations wrote:
    > On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 08:57:16 +1200, Enkidu wrote:
    >
    >> Not 'never', Lennier. Just not for ages. You used to have to
    >> recompile the kernel to include or update a driver, but at some
    >> stage modules which could link in to the kernel directly were
    >> introduced and the rest is as you say.

    >
    > Weren't modules introduced in Linux 1.2? That was well over 12 years
    > ago and more like 15 or so years ago.
    >

    "Device drivers and such were always quite modular, though. When LKMs
    (linux kernel modules) were invented, only a small amount of work was
    needed on these modules to make them buildable as LKMs. However, it had
    to be done on each and every one, so it took some time. Since about
    2000, virtually everything that makes sense as an LKM has at least had
    the option of being an LKM."

    From http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Module-HOWTO/x73.html#AEN90
    >
    > I've never had to recompile a kernel because I changed a piece of
    > hardware and needed to include a different or updated driver in the
    > kernel and I've been using Linux boxen since 2000.
    >

    Yes, you are a newbie. Thanks for confirming that.
    >
    > The only time a reboot is required is so that a new kernel can be
    > loaded into RAM. Presumably even that will be sorted out before too
    > long.
    >

    man dkms
    >
    > We've seen more than 5 different major iterations of MS windows in
    > that time, and numerous "service packs", and Microsoft has only just
    > recently figured out that a reboot is not required in order to
    > install software or hardware "drivers".
    >

    That's been the case for properly written software and for properly
    written hardware drivers for some time now. The software case was the
    easiest and was mostly fixed in Win2000, (for properly written
    software). The hardware cases were more difficult but they are coming
    along. Mostly the delays have been caused by recalcitrant software and
    hardware suppliers and not Microsoft itself.

    Besides, it's not a crime against humanity to reboot a computer.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
    the same old personalities show through.
     
    Enkidu, Sep 9, 2009
    #18
  19. Carnations

    Enkidu Guest

    Carnations wrote:
    > On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 05:08:17 -0700, AD. wrote:
    >
    >> Not all Linux drivers have always worked as loadable modules. There was
    >> even a time before loadable modules when all drivers had to compiled in.

    >
    > That was Linux kernel version 1.0 - way back in the very early-mid '90s. Version 1.2 introduced
    > loadable kernel modules and for about the last 15 years reboots have never been required.
    >

    Sigh. That's not true. LKMs were introduced in the 90s but they were not
    immediately used for all software. It took most of a decade for that to
    happen.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
    the same old personalities show through.
     
    Enkidu, Sep 9, 2009
    #19
  20. Carnations

    Enkidu Guest

    Cima wrote:
    > On Wed, 09 Sep 2009 08:57:16 +1200, Enkidu <> wrote:
    >
    >> Carnations wrote:
    >>> On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 23:23:18 +1200, Bobs wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Just installed all the new chipset drivers (network, sm bus, video
    >>>> etc) on my laptop and it didn't even need a restart. Great stuff.
    >>>> Gone are the horrible days of xp where you had to do a couple of
    >>>> restarts.
    >>> That is good news for MS Windows Administrators.
    >>>
    >>> However, Linux users have never needed to restart their computer
    >>> merely to get a driver going.
    >>>

    >> Not 'never', Lennier. Just not for ages. You used to have to recompile
    >> the kernel to include or update a driver, but at some stage modules
    >> which could link in to the kernel directly were introduced and the rest
    >> is as you say.

    >
    > Um, when I installed the nVidia driver on Kubuntu it wanted a reboot.
    >

    My Ubuntu didn't. At least if it did I don't recall it, but then who
    cares about a reboot or two?

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
    the same old personalities show through.
     
    Enkidu, Sep 9, 2009
    #20
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