Re: VoIP and 999/112 service?

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by Ivor Jones, May 19, 2005.

  1. Ivor Jones

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Owain wrote:
    > Steve Hayes wrote:
    >> This has become a big issue in the US because their market is
    >> different.

    >
    > Their 911 service is also rather different, with 911 operators often
    > being responsible for taking call details and despatching the
    > *appropriate* organisation - many areas have multiple,
    > geographically overlapping law enforcement organisations with
    > different and sometimes conflicting responsibilities. And of course
    > it's a huge country.
    > The UK organisation of emergency services is far more
    > straightforward and provided the answering call centre can get a
    > general location the call can be connected quickly to the correct
    > service/area who have local knowledge.


    [Cross posted to uk.telecom.voip]

    The question remains, what happens if someone takes a VoIP phone or ATA to
    another location, which could be anywhere in the world..? Whose emergency
    services would you get, indeed which number would you dial..? I visit the
    US regularly and although I haven't had an ATA long enough I will be
    taking it with me on my next visit. Should I dial 999, 112, 911, what..?

    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, May 19, 2005
    #1
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  2. Ivor Jones wrote:

    > The question remains, what happens if someone takes a VoIP phone or ATA to
    > another location, which could be anywhere in the world..? Whose emergency
    > services would you get, indeed which number would you dial..? I visit the
    > US regularly and although I haven't had an ATA long enough I will be
    > taking it with me on my next visit. Should I dial 999, 112, 911, what..?


    I can't see how calls on your ATA can be routed to anything but 112/999
    (UK) if your VOIP is UK based. Dialling should fail to connect (well it
    does on my VOIP service).

    That is why with VOIP the non-emergency number becomes so much more
    important to use - it gets you through to someone - and in your language.
     
    Wireless Reader, May 19, 2005
    #2
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  3. Ivor Jones

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Wireless Reader wrote:
    > Ivor Jones wrote:
    >
    >> The question remains, what happens if someone takes a VoIP phone
    >> or ATA to another location, which could be anywhere in the
    >> world..? Whose emergency services would you get, indeed which
    >> number would you dial..? I visit the US regularly and although I
    >> haven't had an ATA long enough I will be taking it with me on my
    >> next visit. Should I dial 999, 112, 911, what..?

    >
    > I can't see how calls on your ATA can be routed to anything but
    > 112/999 (UK) if your VOIP is UK based. Dialling should fail to
    > connect (well it does on my VOIP service).
    >
    > That is why with VOIP the non-emergency number becomes so much more
    > important to use - it gets you through to someone - and in your
    > language.


    Precisely my point. I suppose there might be some way of linking the
    destination of the call to the IP address in use, but personally I
    wouldn't use VoIP for an emergency call anyway. I have no intention of
    getting rid of my traditional landlines just yet and there is always the
    mobile.

    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, May 19, 2005
    #3
  4. Ivor Jones

    Jet Morgan Guest

    "Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > The question remains, what happens if someone takes a VoIP phone or ATA to
    > another location, which could be anywhere in the world..? Whose emergency
    > services would you get, indeed which number would you dial..? I visit the
    > US regularly and although I haven't had an ATA long enough I will be
    > taking it with me on my next visit. Should I dial 999, 112, 911, what..?


    If you have VoIP service in the UK, do you have to dial the fully-qualified
    national number at all times ? I assume that you do, as there's presumably
    no concept of "local".

    Now, when you take a VoIP phone from the UK and use in the USA (or France,
    or Germany, or Australia, or anywhere else), *how* are dialed numbers
    resolved ? If using a UK VoIP phone in the USA to dial a USA number, do
    you have to dial "xxx yyyy", "www xxx yyyy", "1 www xxx yyyy" or what ?

    It seems a similar set-up to when roaming on GSM: numbers dialed on
    a roaming GSM handset and resolved as if they were dialed by a local
    user on that hosting network ? Is this the way it works ? I ask because
    I've just seen mention that roaming Tesco mobile handset's don't
    work that way: you have to dial as if you were still in the UK, so
    you still have to dial +xx-whatever to get to the country that you're
    physically in.

    Someone will have to think about how VoIP roamers' dialed numbers
    are resolved, before addressing the specific question as to how
    they are resolved in the special case of 999/112/911.

    Richard [in SE13]
     
    Jet Morgan, May 20, 2005
    #4
  5. Ivor Jones

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Jet Morgan wrote:
    > "Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>
    >> The question remains, what happens if someone takes a VoIP phone
    >> or ATA to another location, which could be anywhere in the
    >> world..? Whose emergency services would you get, indeed which
    >> number would you dial..? I visit the US regularly and although I
    >> haven't had an ATA long enough I will be taking it with me on my
    >> next visit. Should I dial 999, 112, 911, what..?

    >
    > If you have VoIP service in the UK, do you have to dial the
    > fully-qualified national number at all times ? I assume that you
    > do, as there's presumably no concept of "local".


    Yes. Although if someone in the same area code as your number wants to
    call you from BT or whoever they can just dial the local part of the
    number. But for outgoing VoIP to PSTN calls you dial the full number as
    you do from a mobile.

    > Now, when you take a VoIP phone from the UK and use in the USA (or
    > France, or Germany, or Australia, or anywhere else), *how* are
    > dialed numbers resolved ? If using a UK VoIP phone in the USA to
    > dial a USA number, do you have to dial "xxx yyyy", "www xxx yyyy",
    > "1 www xxx yyyy" or what ?


    As far as your VoIP system is concerned, you are in the UK, wherever you
    are located in reality. So you would dial (and you would be charged)
    exactly the same as you would from the UK. So will callers calling you.

    > It seems a similar set-up to when roaming on GSM: numbers dialed on
    > a roaming GSM handset and resolved as if they were dialed by a local
    > user on that hosting network ? Is this the way it works ? I ask
    > because I've just seen mention that roaming Tesco mobile handset's
    > don't
    > work that way: you have to dial as if you were still in the UK, so
    > you still have to dial +xx-whatever to get to the country that
    > you're physically in.


    If you are roaming on a mobile you dial exactly as if you were in the UK,
    although you will usually need to use the + international symbol and
    country code, i.e. +1 234 567 8901 when calling the US, even if you are
    there.

    > Someone will have to think about how VoIP roamers' dialed numbers
    > are resolved, before addressing the specific question as to how
    > they are resolved in the special case of 999/112/911.


    I wouldn't even think of using VoIP for an emergency call..!!

    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, May 20, 2005
    #5
  6. Ivor Jones

    Chris Guest

    Ivor Jones wrote:
    > Jet Morgan wrote:
    >>If you have VoIP service in the UK, do you have to dial the
    >>fully-qualified national number at all times ? I assume that you
    >>do, as there's presumably no concept of "local".

    >
    > Yes. Although if someone in the same area code as your number wants to
    > call you from BT or whoever they can just dial the local part of the
    > number. But for outgoing VoIP to PSTN calls you dial the full number as
    > you do from a mobile.


    Unless calling someone on the same network (i.e. same voip provider), in
    which case it's also possible to dial the "local" number. E.g. for a
    Sipgate user to call my Sipgate number, they can just dial 660 xyza,
    rather than 0161 660 xyza. However, you may not know that the called
    party is on the same network, but that is of no consequence as calling
    the full PSTN number will work too.

    >>Now, when you take a VoIP phone from the UK and use in the USA (or
    >>France, or Germany, or Australia, or anywhere else), *how* are
    >>dialed numbers resolved ? If using a UK VoIP phone in the USA to
    >>dial a USA number, do you have to dial "xxx yyyy", "www xxx yyyy",
    >>"1 www xxx yyyy" or what ?

    >
    >
    > As far as your VoIP system is concerned, you are in the UK, wherever you
    > are located in reality. So you would dial (and you would be charged)
    > exactly the same as you would from the UK. So will callers calling you.


    Yes, presuming you are signed up with a UK voip provider that provides
    you with a UK PSTN number and allows you to dial using a UK dial plan.
    If you're signed up with a US/German/Belgian/etc. voip provider, access
    will be accordingly. So if you are signed up with Sipgate UK, and you
    connect in the US, you will have to dial as though in the UK. If
    connected with Vonage USA, you will have to dial as though in the US.
    Etc., etc.
     
    Chris, May 21, 2005
    #6
  7. Ivor Jones

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Chris wrote:
    > Ivor Jones wrote:
    >> Jet Morgan wrote:
    >>> If you have VoIP service in the UK, do you have to dial the
    >>> fully-qualified national number at all times ? I assume that you
    >>> do, as there's presumably no concept of "local".

    >>
    >> Yes. Although if someone in the same area code as your number
    >> wants to call you from BT or whoever they can just dial the local
    >> part of the number. But for outgoing VoIP to PSTN calls you dial
    >> the full number as you do from a mobile.

    >
    > Unless calling someone on the same network (i.e. same voip
    > provider), in which case it's also possible to dial the "local"
    > number. E.g. for a Sipgate user to call my Sipgate number, they can
    > just dial 660 xyza, rather than 0161 660 xyza. However, you may not
    > know that the called party is on the same network, but that is of
    > no consequence as calling the full PSTN number will work too.


    I took that as read, I understood it to mean PSTN numbers.

    >>> Now, when you take a VoIP phone from the UK and use in the USA (or
    >>> France, or Germany, or Australia, or anywhere else), *how* are
    >>> dialed numbers resolved ? If using a UK VoIP phone in the USA to
    >>> dial a USA number, do you have to dial "xxx yyyy", "www xxx yyyy",
    >>> "1 www xxx yyyy" or what ?

    >>
    >>
    >> As far as your VoIP system is concerned, you are in the UK,
    >> wherever you are located in reality. So you would dial (and you
    >> would be charged) exactly the same as you would from the UK. So
    >> will callers calling you.

    >
    > Yes, presuming you are signed up with a UK voip provider that
    > provides you with a UK PSTN number and allows you to dial using a
    > UK dial plan. If you're signed up with a US/German/Belgian/etc.
    > voip provider, access will be accordingly. So if you are signed up
    > with Sipgate UK, and you connect in the US, you will have to dial
    > as though in the UK. If connected with Vonage USA, you will have to
    > dial as though in the US. Etc., etc.


    Yes, I should have clarified that.

    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, May 21, 2005
    #7
  8. Ivor Jones

    Jet Morgan Guest

    "Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > If you are roaming on a mobile you dial exactly as if you were in the UK,
    > although you will usually need to use the + international symbol and
    > country code, i.e. +1 234 567 8901 when calling the US, even if you are
    > there.


    I don't understand this. "as if you were in the UK" seems to contradict
    "use the + .. country code".

    If I want to call from Orange to Manchester:
    within the UK, I can dial:
    "0161.."
    "0044161.."
    "+44161.."

    If I roamed that Orange handset to the USA, I would
    presumably have to dial "+44161..". That's what I would
    expect, but how is this "as if you were in the UK" ?

    Are you saying that I specifically can not use the "00"
    prefix (from USA), that I might have to use the "011"
    prefix instead ?




    Richard [in SE13]
     
    Jet Morgan, May 21, 2005
    #8
  9. Ivor Jones

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Jet Morgan wrote:
    > "Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >> If you are roaming on a mobile you dial exactly as if you were in
    >> the UK, although you will usually need to use the + international
    >> symbol and country code, i.e. +1 234 567 8901 when calling the US,
    >> even if you are there.

    >
    > I don't understand this. "as if you were in the UK" seems to
    > contradict "use the + .. country code".


    You can dial using +44 to call a UK number from within the UK. I have all
    my memory numbers set to this, then I don't have to alter them when I go
    anywhere.

    > If I want to call from Orange to Manchester:
    > within the UK, I can dial:
    > "0161.."
    > "0044161.."
    > "+44161.."
    >
    > If I roamed that Orange handset to the USA, I would
    > presumably have to dial "+44161..". That's what I would
    > expect, but how is this "as if you were in the UK" ?


    See above.

    > Are you saying that I specifically can not use the "00"
    > prefix (from USA), that I might have to use the "011"
    > prefix instead ?


    I'm not sure to be honest, I've always used either the +44 method or a
    local calling card. You're on a US network so I imagine you'd use their
    codes, but I may be wrong.

    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, May 21, 2005
    #9
  10. Ivor Jones

    Jet Morgan Guest

    "Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > You can dial using +44 to call a UK number from within the UK. I have all
    > my memory numbers set to this, then I don't have to alter them when I go
    > anywhere.


    Yes. So do I.

    I know that you *CAN* use +whatever from the UK, but your
    post said <paraph> "exactly as from the UK, but you *may* need to dial
    +country" </paraph>.

    Can you give an example of dialing "exactly as from the UK" but which
    *doesn't* need the +countrycode bit and which will work sensibly when
    roaming ?

    Could you, for example, dial 1571 and get CallMisser (no I don't think so)
    ?..
    ... or dial the short code for the home network's answering service.

    It seems to me as if your original posting could equally have
    been written "you NEED to dial +countrycode when roaming". Does the "exactly
    as in the UK" bit add anything that I don't know about ?

    Richard [in PE12]
     
    Jet Morgan, May 21, 2005
    #10
  11. On Sat, 21 May 2005 11:15:46 +0100, "Jet Morgan"
    <> wrote:

    >Can you give an example of dialing "exactly as from the UK" but which
    >*doesn't* need the +countrycode bit and which will work sensibly when
    >roaming ?


    several mobile services are doing this now, presumably to help the
    hard of thinking. Dial 123 to get you voicemail or dial 01xxx type UK
    numbers. Doesn't work everywhere and a silly idea to my mind.

    To dial UK from US with GSM other than under the above kludge its
    either +44 or 011 44

    VoIP services are different to GSM in that the latter incorporates
    roaming and geography in its standards. A VoIP service will act on the
    basis of where you tell them it is going to be used, so BTBBV for
    example assumes you are in the UK, and the Business veriosn takes
    location details for 999 purposes.

    A UK based VoIP service is IMO unlikely to look at your IP and change
    its behaviour based on that, for example General Motors IP addresses
    are probably spread around the planet and you can't deduce geography
    from their IP.

    Phil
    --
    spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
    Come on down !
     
    Phil Thompson, May 21, 2005
    #11
  12. > If you are roaming on a mobile you dial exactly as if you were in the UK,
    > although you will usually need to use the + international symbol and
    > country code, i.e. +1 234 567 8901 when calling the US, even if you are
    > there.
    >


    IVOR - THIS IS COMPLETELY UNTRUE

    With a mobile phone, if you are roaming, you ALLWAYS need to call the number
    as if you were using a local phone.
    You are indeed using the local network, therefore need to behave as a local
    Of course, you can allways use the international format, even in your own
    country - which is good practice

    e.g
    UK mobile user calling from the UK to a UK number
    -- can dial 01xxxx or +44 1 xxxx
    a UK mobile user, traveling in Belgium, calling the UK
    -- have to dial +44 1 xxxx or 0044 1 xxxx
    a UK mobile user, traveling in Belgium, calling a belgium number
    -- can dial 0 xxxxxx or +32 xxxxxxx

    Therefore the information that if you are roaming on a mobile you dial
    exactly as if you were in the UK, is not correct

    Ph
     
    Philippe Deleye, May 21, 2005
    #12
  13. On Sat, 21 May 2005 13:52:41 +0200, "Philippe Deleye"
    <> wrote:

    >With a mobile phone, if you are roaming, you ALLWAYS need to call the number
    >as if you were using a local phone.


    no longer the case. Been there, done that, there are networks and
    operators where dialling a UK formatted number from a UK handset works
    fine in another country. Silly idea, and doesn't work reliably
    everywhere so thr +44 method is best.

    Phil
    --
    spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
    Come on down !
     
    Phil Thompson, May 21, 2005
    #13
  14. Ivor Jones

    Jet Morgan Guest

    "Phil Thompson" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sat, 21 May 2005 13:52:41 +0200, "Philippe Deleye"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >With a mobile phone, if you are roaming, you ALLWAYS need to call the

    number
    > >as if you were using a local phone.

    >
    > no longer the case. Been there, done that, there are networks and
    > operators where dialling a UK formatted number from a UK handset works
    > fine in another country. Silly idea, and doesn't work reliably
    > everywhere so thr +44 method is best.



    Bloody silly idea. I see (sort of) what IVOR was getting at now.

    My problem is that if you now CAN (and thus don't have to) dial
    the number in UK format, how does the host number know whether
    you want that number "as interpreted in UK" or "as interpreted
    in local country" ?

    By the sound of it, you could dial 02something from a UK handset
    in Holland and get it interpreted as either +442... or +312...


    Is it the case that ALL UK cellular companies ALLOW the usage
    of +44 to call back to the UK when roaming ? (whether they REQUIRE
    it or not)

    Richard [in SE13]
     
    Jet Morgan, May 21, 2005
    #14
  15. On Sat, 21 May 2005 14:02:50 +0100, "Jet Morgan"
    <> wrote:

    >Bloody silly idea. I see (sort of) what IVOR was getting at now.
    >
    >My problem is that if you now CAN (and thus don't have to) dial
    >the number in UK format, how does the host number know whether
    >you want that number "as interpreted in UK" or "as interpreted
    >in local country" ?
    >
    >By the sound of it, you could dial 02something from a UK handset
    >in Holland and get it interpreted as either +442... or +312...


    I haven't worked out the rules, but its more likely that where it
    exists it will always interpret it as a call back to the UK. This does
    raise the possibility of error.

    >Is it the case that ALL UK cellular companies ALLOW the usage
    >of +44 to call back to the UK when roaming ? (whether they REQUIRE
    >it or not)


    that's the GSM standard and should work everywhere you roam with any
    phone from any provider.

    Phil
    --
    spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
    Come on down !
     
    Phil Thompson, May 21, 2005
    #15
  16. > >With a mobile phone, if you are roaming, you ALLWAYS need to call the
    number
    > >as if you were using a local phone.

    >
    > no longer the case. Been there, done that, there are networks and
    > operators where dialling a UK formatted number from a UK handset works
    > fine in another country. Silly idea, and doesn't work reliably
    > everywhere so thr +44 method is best.


    I can't believe this.
    Please tell us where you were and what local UK number you dialed in the UK
    format ??
    The exception of the rule or of course special numbers, like you voicemail
    access number
    This is not a "UK formatted number" but a short code dedicated to tour
    PROVIDER (not your country)
    Indeed, in some countries, if you are using a provider that has a special
    agreement with your own provider, then it might be possible that they allow
    you to use the usual short codes for Voice mail ea

    But we were talking about real UK numbers (not special codes)
    I just repeat myself: You can only call a UK number from abroad wenn dialing
    the correct international format +44 xxx
     
    Philippe Deleye, May 22, 2005
    #16
  17. On Sun, 22 May 2005 12:48:51 +0100, "Philippe Deleye"
    <> wrote:

    >I can't believe this.
    >Please tell us where you were and what local UK number you dialed in the UK
    >format ??


    this happened both in Poland and in the USA. In both cases I didn't
    believe it either, a travelling companion (different in each case)
    couldn't get through and I said something along the lines "of course
    not you asshole you haven't put +44 in front and docked the zero"
    however they were insistent it had worked previously and when they
    handed over the phone I saw it with my own eyes.

    It isn't error prone in the USA as the area codes and the long
    distance prefix are both non-zero, so it would be reasonable to assume
    that a UK mobile dialling 01283 xxxxxxx is calling the UK.

    The CLID was also messed up in the US (ATT Wireless at the time) with
    01144 added to the front and digits falling off the back. A
    non-compliant mess.

    >Indeed, in some countries, if you are using a provider that has a special
    >agreement with your own provider, then it might be possible that they allow
    >you to use the usual short codes for Voice mail ea
    >
    >But we were talking about real UK numbers (not special codes)


    agreed

    >I just repeat myself: You can only call a UK number from abroad wenn dialing
    >the correct international format +44 xxx


    argument by repeated assertion is not an argument. In any case the +
    can be replaced by the relevant local code for international access
    (00, 8, 011, whatever ).

    Phil
    --
    spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
    Come on down !
     
    Phil Thompson, May 22, 2005
    #17
  18. Thus spaketh Phil Thompson:
    > On Sun, 22 May 2005 12:48:51 +0100, "Philippe Deleye"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> I can't believe this.
    >> Please tell us where you were and what local UK number you dialed in
    >> the UK format ??

    >
    > this happened both in Poland and in the USA. In both cases I didn't
    > believe it either, a travelling companion (different in each case)
    > couldn't get through and I said something along the lines "of course
    > not you asshole you haven't put +44 in front and docked the zero"
    > however they were insistent it had worked previously and when they
    > handed over the phone I saw it with my own eyes.
    >
    > It isn't error prone in the USA as the area codes and the long
    > distance prefix are both non-zero, so it would be reasonable to assume
    > that a UK mobile dialling 01283 xxxxxxx is calling the UK.
    >
    > The CLID was also messed up in the US (ATT Wireless at the time) with
    > 01144 added to the front and digits falling off the back. A
    > non-compliant mess.
    >
    >> Indeed, in some countries, if you are using a provider that has a
    >> special agreement with your own provider, then it might be possible
    >> that they allow you to use the usual short codes for Voice mail ea
    >>
    >> But we were talking about real UK numbers (not special codes)

    >
    > agreed
    >
    >> I just repeat myself: You can only call a UK number from abroad wenn
    >> dialing the correct international format +44 xxx

    >
    > argument by repeated assertion is not an argument. In any case the +
    > can be replaced by the relevant local code for international access
    > (00, 8, 011, whatever ).
    >
    > Phil


    I have had friends on T-Mobile and O2 PAYG mobiles in the past and they only
    needed to dial UK format when roaming, do not know if this has changed.
     
    {{{{{Welcome}}}}}, May 22, 2005
    #18
  19. On 21 May 2005 01:34 +0200, Chris <> wrote:

    >E.g. for a Sipgate user to call my Sipgate number, they can just dial
    >660 xyza, rather than 0161 660 xyza. However, you may not know that
    >the called party is on the same network,


    But some have a different form, anyway. Within Sipgate their number may
    be "100 abcd" but for a PSTN number that could be "xxx 000 abcd" (I have
    one myself, matching these number patterns). Peter M.


    --
    runbox.com - 1000 MB of mail storage and 100 MB for files...
    30 day free trial... <http://web.vfm-deals.com/runbox/>
    Can accept mail for your domain and apply filtering...
    Point your MX record to mx.runbox.com and use POP/IMAP...
     
    Peter Morgan - 0870 432 9632, May 23, 2005
    #19
  20. Ivor Jones

    Jet Morgan Guest

    "Philippe Deleye" <> wrote in message
    news:429071a4$0$79463$...

    > But we were talking about real UK numbers (not special codes)
    > I just repeat myself: You can only call a UK number from abroad wenn

    dialing
    > the correct international format +44 xxx


    So are you saying that you specifically CAN'T dial 0044 xxx.. or
    whatever (assuming the hosting coutry uses 00 as international
    breakout) ?

    Richard [in PE12]
     
    Jet Morgan, May 23, 2005
    #20
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    hrthrth
    May 30, 2009
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